Defacing or Not Defacing? I think Not...

[+Autorita]

Hello all! New to the Forums and about to place my first cache!

 

I have to be somewhat general because I know some local cachers will jump on my hide shortly that watch these forums, but I have a question...

 

Like I said, I'm hiding my first cache soon and it's hiding place/camo is a peice of property that I found discarded nearby. I found where it belonged and left it there to see if it would be replaced officially. It was not after a couple weeks, so I figured it would be ok to take home, slightly modify, and then replace where it belongs with a small geocache addition to it. Since it's in a public park, I'm kinda nervous that I might get in trouble for defacing property or something when it's actually making the spot it was discarded from long ago look better in my opinion. To the common passerby, you could never tell that it has been changed...unless of course you're a geocacher!

 

Is this a bad idea or something I shouldn't worry about? If they find it, and it's not ok, I'm sure they would just discard it again. But I'm about to place it and maybe I'm just getting first-cache-cold-feet!

 

Thanks!

[+lindsychris]

hmmm, well, without the specifics of the situation, it's tough to answer this, but lemme give it a shot...

 

-if the "thing" looks like it was removed/discarded on purpose, or is something that may have been removed by someone "official", replacing it could draw attention and be an issue.

 

-if the "thing" looks like it was discarded accidentally, or done as a careless/destructive act, then replacing it probably won't be an issue

 

-if the "thing" is in bad shape, and it's something that would be used by muggles (for example, a picnic table), putting it back might cause a problem if it falls apart while being used

 

- to be safe, if you're not sure, you could always check with the local parks dept., or whoever maintains the park. Explain caching to them, explain that you found this "thing" disgarded nearby and wanted to replace it. And then ask if you can place a cache in/on it when you put it back. Use the explanation that cachers often help maintain/clean up parks and nature areas, mention CITO, etc... more than likely that they'll let you place it, and then you won't have to worry.

 

...on the other hand, if it's not expensive to place, you can just place it, and if someone takes it down again or it disappears-- oh well

[+PhxChem]

Like I said, I'm hiding my first cache soon and it's hiding place/camo is a peice of property that I found discarded nearby. I found where it belonged and left it there to see if it would be replaced officially. It was not after a couple weeks, so I figured it would be ok to take home, slightly modify, and then replace where it belongs with a small geocache addition to it.

 

With the lack of details, how are we to know the legality of the situation??

[Keystone]

If you don't want to disclose details here, send an e-mail to your friendly local cache reviewer and ask in advance. Or, just include a "note to reviewer" on your cache page when you submit it... but be prepared for a "no" answer.

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Hello all! New to the Forums and about to place my first cache!

 

I have to be somewhat general because I know some local cachers will jump on my hide shortly that watch these forums, but I have a question...

 

It's the FTF hounds that'll jump on your "hide," just as soon as you publish it.

 

You certainly do leave some open ends here. It could be anything.

[+briansnat]

It was not after a couple weeks, so I figured it would be ok to take home, slightly modify, and then replace where it belongs with a small geocache addition to it. Since it's in a public park, I'm kinda nervous that I might get in trouble for defacing property or something when it's actually making the spot it was discarded from long ago look better in my opinion.

 

If you are nervous that you might get in trouble, then you probably did the wrong thing.

[+Team Cotati]

If you can somehow overcome your nervousness, then it will probably be ok.

You know, like those citizens of NYC who tag the subway cars, I doubt that they are the 'nervous' type.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Team Cotati

[+Too Tall John]

I'd ask myself if it will look like I defaced the property. Two reasons:

 

1. If the parks dept. or whoever owns said property didn't realize it was gone and then find it in disrepair with a geocache attached, there will be trouble.

 

2. A cacher who doesn't know the back-story will want to imitate the hide & recreate the situation.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I agree with others. If you can't discuss it here, you probably shouldn't place it there!

[+Autorita]

Thanks for all your input!

 

I'm pretty sure since the piece that I manipulated has been discarded for awhile, is not a major attraction at the location, and is something you'd never even notice....that it's not going to be a huge deal. If it' found, it'll just be removed or muggled long before caching or myself get a bad wrap.

 

I'm gonna let the reviewer decide if it's alright since I can go into detail with him.

 

I've definitely made the CITO known, respecting the park is key, and the fact that it's a rare cache that should be treated that way.

 

Once it's posted, I'll post it here and give you all a shot at it!

[+PhxChem]

Once it's posted, I'll post it here and give you all a shot at it!

 

If this turns out to be a lamp post skirt lift.....

[+Thistle Dew]

I vote "Place it!" The coolest hides look like they ought to be there. I have been watching a discarded telephone electrical box that is still laying on the side of the road...look out!

[+Autorita]

Well, looks like it's not going to work out after all. The admin made a point that although it was removed by someone else or accident that we all know where it originally came from and that it's still destruction of property.

 

For all those wanting to know what the item was, it was a paver that I had found. Although they are inexpensive, it's still part of the park and I will not be placing it here, but I will place a new one somewhere nearby! Let's hope I find a good new spot!

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

[+Ambrosia]

I think my biggest worry in that case is people trying to pull up the wrong pavers and getting a bit destructive around the cache area.

 

I did a cache that was put in a supposedly pre- existing cement lined hole in the ground that was a perfect fit for a .30 ammo can. The top of the ammo can was flush with the ground and had a flat rock over it.

 

I had two problems with that hide:

 

1. I didn't know that the hole was already there before they hid the cache. So when I found it, I was pretty upset at first, thinking that they had gotten around a guideline like that. They didn't say anything about it on the cache site, supposedly so they didn't give away their "cool" hide (I guess). But the problem with that is that other people could assume they created that for the cache and think it's alright to do it themselves.

 

2. Because the cache was difficult to find, and had some vague reference to looking under rocks in the hint, the area was pretty trashed within a 100 feet diameter or so. Every large rock had been moved, and a few had rolled down the hill. It was very obvious, and I had never seen that much damage at a cache site. The area was a park that was set up because there was a historic spot for the Native Americans there. I can see a big public relations issue happening in this case, and it was the first time I've ever felt embarrassed about a geocache.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Well, looks like it's not going to work out after all. The admin made a point that although it was removed by someone else or accident that we all know where it originally came from and that it's still destruction of property.

 

For all those wanting to know what the item was, it was a paver that I had found. Although they are inexpensive, it's still part of the park and I will not be placing it here, but I will place a new one somewhere nearby! Let's hope I find a good new spot!

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Wow! You have -- whether you now it or not -- raised some serious issues here! First, a paver is not an inexpensive throwaway item -- pavers weigh from 3,000 pounds to over 20 tons, and, whether they run on gasoline or diesel fuel, even used pavers typically cost from $8,000 to $90,000, dependent upon size and weight. Personally, I believe that you were likely in violation of all kinds of state laws to even start up the paver which you found, as that would likely be considered theft, and then you would have been in violation of several laws a soon as you started the paver, moved it from where it was parked, and drove it to the park, including operating a piece of heavy machinery without an appropriate license, and theft of a valuable piece of road paving equipment. Worse, the act of leaving a paver parked in the park could be considered littering or abandonment of stolen property. May I suggest that the next time you see a paver parked somewhere in your city, you may wish to leave it exactly where it is and not drive it away? And, now I am wondering, how did you even start the engine if you did not have an ignition key? Or had the key been left in the ignition?

 

Lastly, a paver is hardly a small and inconspicuous item. Did you REALLY expect that you could abandon a piece of heavy equipment that looks like this

 

 

in a park and that NO ONE would notice?

 

[+eagletrek]

Well, looks like it's not going to work out after all. The admin made a point that although it was removed by someone else or accident that we all know where it originally came from and that it's still destruction of property.

 

For all those wanting to know what the item was, it was a paver that I had found. Although they are inexpensive, it's still part of the park and I will not be placing it here, but I will place a new one somewhere nearby! Let's hope I find a good new spot!

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Wow! You have -- whether you now it or not -- raised some serious issues here! First, a paver is not an inexpensive throwaway item -- pavers weigh from 3,000 pounds to over 20 tons, and, whether they run on gasoline or diesel fuel, even used pavers typically cost from $8,000 to $90,000, dependent upon size and weight. Personally, I believe that you were likely in violation of all kinds of state laws to even start up the paver which you found, as that would likely be considered theft, and then you would have been in violation of several laws a soon as you started the paver, moved it from where it was parked, and drove it to the park, including operating a piece of heavy machinery without an appropriate license, and theft of a valuable piece of road paving equipment. Worse, the act of leaving a paver parked in the park could be considered littering or abandonment of stolen property. May I suggest that the next time you see a paver parked somewhere in your city, you may wish to leave it exactly where it is and not drive it away? And, now I am wondering, how did you even start the engine if you did not have an ignition key? Or had the key been left in the ignition?

 

Lastly, a paver is hardly a small and inconspicuous item. Did you REALLY expect that you could abandon a piece of heavy equipment that looks like this

 

 

in a park and that NO ONE would notice?

 

 

Evidently, VST hasn't checked the Groundspeak Store recently. They have this new "paver" "hot-wire kit" available at a reasonable price!!!!

[+9Key]

Well, looks like it's not going to work out after all. The admin made a point that although it was removed by someone else or accident that we all know where it originally came from and that it's still destruction of property.

 

For all those wanting to know what the item was, it was a paver that I had found. Although they are inexpensive, it's still part of the park and I will not be placing it here, but I will place a new one somewhere nearby! Let's hope I find a good new spot!

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Wow! You have -- whether you now it or not -- raised some serious issues here! First, a paver is not an inexpensive throwaway item -- pavers weigh from 3,000 pounds to over 20 tons, and, whether they run on gasoline or diesel fuel, even used pavers typically cost from $8,000 to $90,000, dependent upon size and weight. Personally, I believe that you were likely in violation of all kinds of state laws to even start up the paver which you found, as that would likely be considered theft, and then you would have been in violation of several laws a soon as you started the paver, moved it from where it was parked, and drove it to the park, including operating a piece of heavy machinery without an appropriate license, and theft of a valuable piece of road paving equipment. Worse, the act of leaving a paver parked in the park could be considered littering or abandonment of stolen property. May I suggest that the next time you see a paver parked somewhere in your city, you may wish to leave it exactly where it is and not drive it away? And, now I am wondering, how did you even start the engine if you did not have an ignition key? Or had the key been left in the ignition?

 

Lastly, a paver is hardly a small and inconspicuous item. Did you REALLY expect that you could abandon a piece of heavy equipment that looks like this

 

 

in a park and that NO ONE would notice?

 

^^ Post of the week ^^

[+CSpenceFLY]

I think my biggest worry in that case is people trying to pull up the wrong pavers and getting a bit destructive around the cache area.

 

I did a cache that was put in a supposedly pre- existing cement lined hole in the ground that was a perfect fit for a .30 ammo can. The top of the ammo can was flush with the ground and had a flat rock over it.

 

I had two problems with that hide:

 

1. I didn't know that the hole was already there before they hid the cache. So when I found it, I was pretty upset at first, thinking that they had gotten around a guideline like that. They didn't say anything about it on the cache site, supposedly so they didn't give away their "cool" hide (I guess). But the problem with that is that other people could assume they created that for the cache and think it's alright to do it themselves.

 

2. Because the cache was difficult to find, and had some vague reference to looking under rocks in the hint, the area was pretty trashed within a 100 feet diameter or so. Every large rock had been moved, and a few had rolled down the hill. It was very obvious, and I had never seen that much damage at a cache site. The area was a park that was set up because there was a historic spot for the Native Americans there. I can see a big public relations issue happening in this case, and it was the first time I've ever felt embarrassed about a geocache.

 

I found one in the North Ga. mountains that was like this. In a state park. The cache is on the side of a mountian and it turned out the cords were off by 150ft or so. The entire hillside was destroyed. I didn't know the cords were off till I got home and read through the log or I would have posted correct cords. There were many logs stating the cords were off but no response from the owner.

[+TWGeogang]

Wow! You have -- whether you now it or not -- raised some serious issues here! First, a paver is not an inexpensive throwaway item -- pavers weigh from 3,000 pounds to over 20 tons, and, whether they run on gasoline or diesel fuel, even used pavers typically cost from $8,000 to $90,000, dependent upon size and weight. Personally, I believe that you were likely in violation of all kinds of state laws to even start up the paver which you found, as that would likely be considered theft, and then you would have been in violation of several laws a soon as you started the paver, moved it from where it was parked, and drove it to the park, including operating a piece of heavy machinery without an appropriate license, and theft of a valuable piece of road paving equipment. Worse, the act of leaving a paver parked in the park could be considered littering or abandonment of stolen property. May I suggest that the next time you see a paver parked somewhere in your city, you may wish to leave it exactly where it is and not drive it away? And, now I am wondering, how did you even start the engine if you did not have an ignition key? Or had the key been left in the ignition?

 

Lastly, a paver is hardly a small and inconspicuous item. Did you REALLY expect that you could abandon a piece of heavy equipment that looks like this

 

 

in a park and that NO ONE would notice?

 

 

I saw one hollowed out for a cache on ebay. Starting bid .99

Edited February 8, 2008 by Mae Li