5/5 Event Cache

[+Mopar]

The big problem with 5/5 rating on an event is that people that filter out caches that are 4 or 5 will not know about them.

To my way of thinking, this is not a the best way to rate an event.

Maybe this bears repeating.

Many people do all their caching based on PQs. I can't tell you the last time I actually looked at cache pages online to plan my caching. No need to when I can see them all offline and filter them and map them the way I like with 3rd party programs like GSAK.

Which brings me to JV's quote. Most people I know filter out 5/5 caches from their PQs. Even I do it for normal caching days, and I have probably 30-40 terrain 5 caches under my belt.

People who cache with children, or have difficulty hiking, or have handicaps often limit their cache searches to even lower terrain, like 1 and 1.5's only. By putting a false terrain on your event many people who might otherwise be interested in attending will never even see it. Others may see it and note the 5/5 and pass right over it.

[+JohnnyVegas]

That has nothing to do with it. This year you posted a link in the Forums, just what kind of a response did you think you would get.

The cache is not a 5/5, calling it a 5/5 in nonsense.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

It looks to me like the OP was merely generating some interest in his event cache with this topic, and is having a bit of fun with the 5/5 rating.

 

Although his lack of response to the forum questions for a couple of days is a bit frustrating, he seemed to have addressed that in one of his posts.

 

I am a bit of a purist, and would not rate this 5/5 if it were my event, and certainly wouldn't consider myself as having done a 5/5 cache if I attended the event....

 

...but, it's pretty obvious that the OP is just having some fun. I highly doubt that very many attendees are going to be bragging that they've done a 5/5 cache. It just looks like they're out to have some fun.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Here's a 1/5 coming to our area. It's a 11 mile kayak paddle. It'l be a Lu Lu

 

That sounds like a great event. If I didn't live over 1000 miles to the north I'd certainly want to go.

 

It seems that almost every cache that I have seen which requires a boat to get to is rated a 5 for terrain. Since I have four of them and have been an avid touring kayaker for 12 years the boating requirement isn't an issue for me so it would probably be closer to a 3, and that considers the 11 mile distance. In calm conditions I'd probably rate an 11 mile paddle a 2.5 for myself but could easily turn into a 5 with some weather.

 

In the case of the original posting, although the event would require a boat I would rate it less than a five. For those that don't have a boat there is still the possibly of sharing a canoe, tandem kayak, or motorboat that is much greater than if it were not an event.

[+Ambrosia]

Ambrosia, difficulty 1 terrain 5 caches and event caches are fairly common here.

If it's a CITO event, generally the difficulty will be listed as 2 or 2.5 (for the work, which actually can be pretty rough especially pulling boat hulls out of the mangroves), but Meet and Greets on islands are generally 1/5.

 

I've got a few 5/5 caches in my finds list. Many 5 terrain, no real 5 difficulty. I'm not sure I've ever found anything that I'd rate higher on difficulty than a 3.5, but folks do love to inflate the difficulty of their hides.

 

We're hosting an event right now that's for boats. I originally had rated it a 5/5, because an earlier event that we participated in had been rated that way. But it's true, I don't suppose the Difficulty rating should be a 5. But should it be a 1 then? A 1/5 cache?

 

Here's the forum thread for that event. I raised the question there, but didn't get a huge response and I'm not sure what I should do.

 

Should I change the rating this far into things? I'm willing to do that. And if I do, should it be a 1 then?

 

I had a canoe/kayak event on an island and it was 1/5. Wasn't difficult to find. No way is it a 5/5 unless there is some sort of incredibly difficult puzzle you need to solve to get the coords.

 

The event in the OP looks like nothing more than a 1/1. It's unfortunate that some people who filter out high difficulty and terrain caches may miss out on this one because the owner was playing some sort of joke.

 

 

I'm one of those who generally views Difficulty as how hard it is to locate the cache and Terrain as how hard it is to get to. So really, I have a hard time imagining any event being higher than a 1 for Difficulty. A few possibilities are, as GeoBain said, having to solve a puzzle to know where it is. An adventure or road rally type event might also have a higher difficulty rating, if you apply the difficulty to the goings-on rather than the getting-to.

 

Isn't the difficulty for a cache supposed to be for locating the cache? The terrain can be a 5 but if you get there and the cache is an ammo can sitting out in the open the difficulty would be a 1. I don't see how a can on a ledge in the middle of a technical climb is a 5 difficulty.

 

 

Difficulty is not entirely based on how easy it is to locate a cache.

 

Difficulty rating:

* Easy. In plain sight or can be found in a few minutes of searching.

** Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting.

*** Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

**** Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

 

Using mountaineering equipment is both mental and physical.

 

Thank you for the answers to my question, and for everyone's comments in general in this thread. It's really made me think a lot. It's made me come to the realization that perhaps the ratings should be different for Events, especially for the Difficulty.

 

At first I thought that the difficulty for our GeoRafting Event should be a 1, because I thought, "how hard is it to find a parking lot"?.

 

But then I took a good look at the question for the Difficulty rating in the ClayJar system, and then in the explanation for the Difficult rating. I found that it was specifically speaking of finding the cache, and how long it takes. Then I thought, "is finding the Event, finding the parking lot/restaurant, or is it how long the Event takes?" It might take just a minute to find the parking area, but how long does the whole Event take? In the Difficulty explanation, 3 stars says, "An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon." The Event will take around 4 hours.

 

Since I'm starting to believe that the rating system is a bit off when you use it for Events, I've changed our GeoRafting rating to 3/5. This is something I'm still going to think about and perhaps discuss with others, so I may think differently in the future, but for this Event, I think I'm satisfied.

 

BTW - here's the Event: Floating the Skagit

Edited January 19, 2008 by Ambrosia

[Tahosa and Sons]

This Sweet Cache is a fairly good example of a 5 Terrain cache. Now how can an event that you bring chairs and a cooler and is located right next to the road be a 5 Terrain cache. Maybe those that attend this cache would get so drunk they would have trouble walking to the bathrooms, so the difficulty would go up a bit.

[+PinkDolphin]

The cute insane gal above me beat me to this thread, but failed to post a link to the actual event.

Heck, she didn't even show up to the paddling part, just the burritos and beer afterevent get-together.

 

And I can verify that not only did someone tip their kayak twice in the middle of the river in the 35+mph winds, but had the EMT's and Coast Guard called out as well.

 

We discussed the proper rating of this event ahead of time. Since the log was in one of the kayaks, and we weren't sure which one until we were mid river, it was determined that 5/5 was appropriate; especially considering the alligators, current, wind, and large boats we had to share the river with. (Yes this is the same Cape Fear River as the two movies too )

 

this has not been photoshopped!

 

This was most definitely a 5/5 event while some nameless individual was trying to reassure the EMT folks he was indeed fine, I was being swept out to sea by the strong current. I am just happy the man who owned the property where the boat launch I was able to get to was understanding about my being there. When all was said and done I was 1 mile down river. Lets see, strong current, white capes, wind, cargo ship, YEP this was a 5/5.

 

I would do this again in a heartbeat.

[+Mudfrog]

The cute insane gal above me beat me to this thread, but failed to post a link to the actual event.

Heck, she didn't even show up to the paddling part, just the burritos and beer afterevent get-together.

 

And I can verify that not only did someone tip their kayak twice in the middle of the river in the 35+mph winds, but had the EMT's and Coast Guard called out as well.

 

We discussed the proper rating of this event ahead of time. Since the log was in one of the kayaks, and we weren't sure which one until we were mid river, it was determined that 5/5 was appropriate; especially considering the alligators, current, wind, and large boats we had to share the river with. (Yes this is the same Cape Fear River as the two movies too )

 

this has not been photoshopped!

 

This was most definitely a 5/5 event while some nameless individual was trying to reassure the EMT folks he was indeed fine, I was being swept out to sea by the strong current. I am just happy the man who owned the property where the boat launch I was able to get to was understanding about my being there. When all was said and done I was 1 mile down river. Lets see, strong current, white capes, wind, cargo ship, YEP this was a 5/5.

 

I would do this again in a heartbeat.

Just being technical here and i'm certainly not wanting to take anything away from what sounds like an outstanding event, but the things you mention seem to only apply to terrain difficulty. I do see in the post that you quoted where the logbook was hidden in one of the kayaks. Still, unless there were a substantial number of kayaks to search through, i don't see it as rating a 5 for overall difficulty. There's no doubt that trying to search other's kayaks for that logbook while on the water was indeed a challenge but that challenge was due to the difficult terrain (being on the water, strong current, white caps, wind, and ship).

 

Putting it this way, if you had, say, 12 kayaks sitting on shore (i counted heads in the picture),,, would finding the logbook in one of those still rate a 5 in overall difficulty?

[+Bad_CRC]

I think it's wrong to put a 5/5 on that cache, but I don't think it's worth getting upset or nasty about, especially if you don't have any intention of attending.

 

course, I also think it's wrong to log event caches by putting 10 different found it logs on the same event page, but it's not my business to try to stop someone from doing it.

[+briansnat]

This was most definitely a 5/5 event while some nameless individual was trying to reassure the EMT folks he was indeed fine, I was being swept out to sea by the strong current. I am just happy the man who owned the property where the boat launch I was able to get to was understanding about my being there. When all was said and done I was 1 mile down river.<b> Lets see, strong current, white capes, wind, cargo ship, YEP this was a 5/5.</b>

 

That still sounds like a 1/5 to me. Currents, whitecaps, etc.... have everything to do with terrain and nothing to do with the difficulty of actually "finding" it when you get there.

[+wimseyguy]

Putting it this way, if you had, say, 12 kayaks sitting on shore (i counted heads in the picture),,, would finding the logbook in one of those still rate a 5 in overall difficulty?

Well, the search for the log book didn't take place on land did it?

 

But enough discussion of our mis-rated event. This thread is all about the 5/5 on dry land in a city park.

 

And I'm not remaining nameless....

[+fraygirls]

Hi All!

 

I was the host of the aforementioned 5/5 kayak-and-cargo-ship event on the Cape Fear River. Just want to clarify that the participants were on (some *IN*) the (freezing) water for the duration of the event. The land-based pictures were taken post-event, just after we all finished kissing the ground with overwhelming relief. We had 20 knot winds and an outgoing current that conspired to send us all out to sea. Then a large cargo ship decided to show up. This was probably one of the most insane and stupid things that many of the participants have done...and that's saying something, considering the fact that wimseyguy was there !

 

Here's one for the guidelines: When you're genuinely worried that some of the participants might be logging a R.I.P. at your event, it's probably a legit 5/5. But YMMV!

[+Bad_CRC]

When you're genuinely worried that some of the participants might be logging a R.I.P. at your event, it's probably a legit 5/5. But YMMV!

 

I think the first 5 has to do with brain hard and the second has to do with body hard.

 

so if you can walk right up to it and not find it, it'a a 5/1

if you can't get to it at all, but once you are near the cache, it's easy, it's a 1/5

 

at least that's my understanding. I could be wrong.

[+ironman114]

When you're genuinely worried that some of the participants might be logging a R.I.P. at your event, it's probably a legit 5/5. But YMMV!

 

I think the first 5 has to do with brain hard and the second has to do with body hard.

 

so if you can walk right up to it and not find it, it'a a 5/1

if you can't get to it at all, but once you are near the cache, it's easy, it's a 1/5

 

at least that's my understanding. I could be wrong.

 

 

Could you please answer what this means then?

 

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

Since it is part of the 5 stars on finding the cache.

[+Mopar]

When you're genuinely worried that some of the participants might be logging a R.I.P. at your event, it's probably a legit 5/5. But YMMV!

 

I think the first 5 has to do with brain hard and the second has to do with body hard.

 

so if you can walk right up to it and not find it, it'a a 5/1

if you can't get to it at all, but once you are near the cache, it's easy, it's a 1/5

 

at least that's my understanding. I could be wrong.

 

 

Could you please answer what this means then?

 

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

Since it is part of the 5 stars on finding the cache.

It means just that. 5 star difficulty requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to locate/retrieve the cache. If you need specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to get to the cache, then that is 5 star terrain.

[+Kit Fox]

 

It means just that. 5 star difficulty requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to locate/retrieve the cache. If you need specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to get to the cache, then that is 5 star terrain.

 

The system is pretty clear that the physical aspect affects difficulty also. It's often thought that difficulty is "all about finding the cache," not the other factors.

 

Difficulty rating:

* Easy. In plain sight or can be found in a few minutes of searching.

** Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting.

*** Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

**** Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

 

Terrain rating:

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

** Suitable for small children. (Terrain is generally along marked trails, there are no steep elevation changes or heavy overgrowth. Less than a 2 mile hike required.)

*** Not suitable for small children. (The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes, or more than a 2 mile hike.)

**** Experienced outdoor enthusiasts only. (Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay.)

***** Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience, (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

 

Regarding the kayak event, paddling in rough waters constitutes a serious physical challenge, and the boat requirement meets the 5 * terrain rating.

 

Climbing a peak using mountaineering equipment is both a physical challenge, and requires the use of special equipment. If you look at the rating system, a good climb cache can be a 5/5.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Kit Fox

[+Uncopyrighted]

There was a 5/5 event in Idaho last year (GC13VV4). Required ATVs and lasted 6 days. I'd say that counts!

[+Bad_CRC]

 

Difficulty rating:

***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

 

Terrain rating:

***** Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience, (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

 

seems kind of redundant as written without clarification.

 

a good reason to let people use their own best judgement when placing caches or planning events.

[+Mudfrog]

When you're genuinely worried that some of the participants might be logging a R.I.P. at your event, it's probably a legit 5/5. But YMMV!

 

I think the first 5 has to do with brain hard and the second has to do with body hard.

 

so if you can walk right up to it and not find it, it'a a 5/1

if you can't get to it at all, but once you are near the cache, it's easy, it's a 1/5

 

at least that's my understanding. I could be wrong.

 

 

Could you please answer what this means then?

 

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

Since it is part of the 5 stars on finding the cache.

It means just that. 5 star difficulty requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to locate/retrieve the cache. If you need specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to get to the cache, then that is 5 star terrain.

I've always thought that the overall diificulty rating was an indication of how well a cache was hidden. I haven't yet hidden a 5 overall difficult cache, so i've never read down far enough to see where it states that a serious physical challenge can be listed as a 5. On the kayak event, i was looking at water, current, high winds, and a ship as being the culprits, those being part of the terrain. Since serious physical challenge is listed under overall difficulty, i now stand corrected and have to agree that the event was most likely rated correctly!

[+Harry Dolphin]

There seems to be too much hyperbole concerning 5/5 caches. 5 stars both for difficulty and terrain? (Hey, I did a 5 terrain, 1 difficulty once!) Like OP, people do not rate their caches properly. They want the 5/5, when the cache is only 1/5. There seem to be several locally. One popped up today...

The coordinates will bring you to a marked tree which is a good anchor. Tie up and head about 20+ feet south, toward the point and Over The Edge... from there it is an easy find, Be safe and enjoy! Please re-hide as found.

5 terrain? Definitely. It requires mountain climbing gear and abilities. But, if you tell me 'from there it is an easy find', that is not a 5 difficulty.

Likewise the 45' tree climb, where you can see the cache from the ground. 5 for terrain: no question. 5 for difficulty? Not sure about that.

Let's rate our cache properly!

[+briansnat]

There seem to be several locally. One popped up today...

 

Looks like that one should be a multi too, not a mystery.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

 

It means just that. 5 star difficulty requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to locate/retrieve the cache. If you need specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to get to the cache, then that is 5 star terrain.

 

The system is pretty clear that the physical aspect affects difficulty also. It's often thought that difficulty is "all about finding the cache," not the other factors.

 

Difficulty rating:

* Easy. In plain sight or can be found in a few minutes of searching.

** Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting.

*** Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

**** Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

 

Terrain rating:

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

** Suitable for small children. (Terrain is generally along marked trails, there are no steep elevation changes or heavy overgrowth. Less than a 2 mile hike required.)

*** Not suitable for small children. (The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes, or more than a 2 mile hike.)

**** Experienced outdoor enthusiasts only. (Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay.)

***** Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience, (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

 

Regarding the kayak event, paddling in rough waters constitutes a serious physical challenge, and the boat requirement meets the 5 * terrain rating.

 

Climbing a peak using mountaineering equipment is both a physical challenge, and requires the use of special equipment. If you look at the rating system, a good climb cache can be a 5/5.

I agree with Kit Fox's assessment and also with the Clayjar/Groundspeak rating system, which he has quoted. For some odd reason, a few folks have tried to hijack the ratings system and redefine Difficulty as only a tiny subset of overall difficulty. In fact, I always use the Clayjar/Groundspeak rating scale when rating our high terrain caches.