What's with the religious stuff?

[+CYBret]

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Yes. Unfortunately, others continue to believe in the non existent phenomenon of "religion". Either way, religion is nonsense to me. Unfortunately, as long as it is not nonsense to other people, it only leads to prejudice and hatred.

 

It comes down to this:

 

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated, etc., etc.

 

Or. Forget religion and it's nonsense, and let people think what they want to think. If they think they shouldnt watch R rated movies......thats cool! If they think abortion should be legal....thats cool!

 

I say we get real and forget the segregation (caused by religion) and we make intelligent decisions that make sense.

 

Wow...yeah..that describes me to a "T"....thanks. Thanks for pre-judging me simply based on your own prejudices against people who happen to hold different beliefs than you.

 

Personally I think most people simply need to suck it up and stop letting themselves be offended. But hey, I'm a Christian...what do I know?

 

Gotta go...time to get ready for work.

 

Bret

[+The Leprechauns]

I'm sitting here watching Fox News while getting ready for Church. I am wondering where are the posts that talk about cache swag? Perhaps the pure debate on religion can be split out into another thread or something. It belongs in the Off Topic forum, if it belongs anyplace.

[+simpjkee]

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Yes. Unfortunately, others continue to believe in the non existent phenomenon of "religion". Either way, religion is nonsense to me. Unfortunately, as long as it is not nonsense to other people, it only leads to prejudice and hatred.

 

It comes down to this:

 

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated, etc., etc.

 

Or. Forget religion and it's nonsense, and let people think what they want to think. If they think they shouldnt watch R rated movies......thats cool! If they think abortion should be legal....thats cool!

 

I say we get real and forget the segregation (caused by religion) and we make intelligent decisions that make sense.

 

Wow...yeah..that describes me to a "T"....thanks. Thanks for pre-judging me simply based on your own prejudices against people who happen to hold different beliefs than you.

 

Personally I think most people simply need to suck it up and stop letting themselves be offended. But hey, I'm a Christian...what do I know?

 

Gotta go...time to get ready for work.

 

Bret

 

Well....I certainly wasn't specifically judging you, but since you enter the discussion, I lump you in to the 1st category. You certainly aren't ready to let me believe what I want to believe, even though I am more than willing to let you believe whatever you want, even if it is nonsense. Please do the planet a favor and step back and let me believe what I want without trying to tell me I'm wrong.

 

I'm right. And I think "people simply need to suck it up and stop letting themselves be offended." But hey, I'm non religious...what do I know?

[+simpjkee]

I'm sitting here watching Fox News while getting ready for Church. I am wondering where are the posts that talk about cache swag? Perhaps the pure debate on religion can be split out into another thread or something. It belongs in the Off Topic forum, if it belongs anyplace.

 

Dont create a thread in my name PLEASE!

[Clan Riffster]

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated

Earlier in this thread you attempted to define "nonsense".

Perhaps there's room in your world for another definition of the word?

"Nonsense" would be an assumption that having religious beliefs equals hating others.

(or would that be "Intolerant"?)

I always get those two confused.

 

Your hatred for religion demonstrates your intolerance, which I find to be nonsensical.

(had to tie it all together)

 

Back on topic: Swag is swag. If you are offended by a piece of paper, trade up.

[+simpjkee]

I'm sitting here watching Fox News while getting ready for Church. I am wondering where are the posts that talk about cache swag? Perhaps the pure debate on religion can be split out into another thread or something. It belongs in the Off Topic forum, if it belongs anyplace.

 

On a sidenote, FOX NEWS? Why are you watching those lies?

[+koneko]

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Yes. Unfortunately, others continue to believe in the non existent phenomenon of "religion". Either way, religion is nonsense to me. Unfortunately, as long as it is not nonsense to other people, it only leads to prejudice and hatred.

 

It comes down to this:

 

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated, etc., etc.

 

Or. Forget religion and it's nonsense, and let people think what they want to think. If they think they shouldnt watch R rated movies......thats cool! If they think abortion should be legal....thats cool!

 

I say we get real and forget the segregation (caused by religion) and we make intelligent decisions that make sense.

 

As I understood the original post, this was about cache swag, not personal beliefs. Might be best to get back on topic and save the religious discussion for a face to face (or email to email ) discussion and not in this thread.

[Clan Riffster]

Maybe they got tired of the CBS, NBC, ABC, and CNN lies and wanted a different flavor?

Life gets dull if all you eat is vanilla ice cream.

[+simpjkee]

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated

Earlier in this thread you attempted to define "nonsense".

Perhaps there's room in your world for another definition of the word?

"Nonsense" would be an assumption that having religious beliefs equals hating others.

(or would that be "Intolerant"?)

I always get those two confused.

 

Your hatred for religion demonstrates your intolerance, which I find to be nonsensical.

(had to tie it all together)

 

Back on topic: Swag is swag. If you are offended by a piece of paper, trade up.

 

Religions view towards me is

 

My view towards religion is

 

Religion is religion. No one is ever going to agree on it. Even when I was in 5th grade I shy'ed away from religious discussions cuz they never ended well. Even in 5th grade! Thanks religion for that!

[+simpjkee]

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Yes. Unfortunately, others continue to believe in the non existent phenomenon of "religion". Either way, religion is nonsense to me. Unfortunately, as long as it is not nonsense to other people, it only leads to prejudice and hatred.

 

It comes down to this:

 

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated, etc., etc.

 

Or. Forget religion and it's nonsense, and let people think what they want to think. If they think they shouldnt watch R rated movies......thats cool! If they think abortion should be legal....thats cool!

 

I say we get real and forget the segregation (caused by religion) and we make intelligent decisions that make sense.

 

As I understood the original post, this was about cache swag, not personal beliefs. Might be best to get back on topic and save the religious discussion for a face to face (or email to email ) discussion and not in this thread.

 

Face to face......Oh boy.... that sounds like fun!

[+simpjkee]

I'm sitting here watching Fox News while getting ready for Church. I am wondering where are the posts that talk about cache swag? Perhaps the pure debate on religion can be split out into another thread or something. It belongs in the Off Topic forum, if it belongs anyplace.

 

On a sidenote, FOX NEWS? Why are you watching those lies?

On a side note, why are you posting about religious beliefs and politics outside of the off topic forum? Just go away.

 

I'm not sure.

 

Where should I post?

 

I'm just trying to have a conversation.

 

Can you please direct me to where you would rather me have this conversation?

[+The Leprechauns]

I meant to post this with my personal account, sorry for the confusion:

 

On a side note, why are you posting about religious beliefs and politics outside of the off topic forum? Just go away.

 

My suggestion is to not have this discussion in a geocaching forum. We are here to talk about the trinkets left in geocaches. Either go to the off topic forum, or go to a forum set up for debating religious issues or media issues. Just don't do it here. Bye.

[+simpjkee]

I meant to post this with my personal account, sorry for the confusion:

 

On a side note, why are you posting about religious beliefs and politics outside of the off topic forum? Just go away.

 

My suggestion is to not have this discussion in a geocaching forum. We are here to talk about the trinkets left in geocaches. Either go to the off topic forum, or go to a forum set up for debating religious issues or media issues. Just don't do it here. Bye.

 

You talking to Keystone?

[+nthacker66]

I've bit my lip over this thread for awhile. And I don't want to get into the middle of things.

 

But I do want to offer another thought.

 

I'm a Christian. Heck, I'm studying to be a Pastor! IF I were to choose to leave a sig item (which I'm still working on), it would probably be something Christian.

 

It's a representation of who I am. A piece of me.

 

I'm not placing it to convert you (since I don't think anyone but God can actually do that). I'm not placing it to offend or annoy you. I'm playing the game in the way that I understand it. It's my understanding that we can trade swag. It's my understanding that we can design and distribute a "signature item" that is somehow representative of us.

 

If you can leave your coin with your logo on it, why can't I leave my card with a small cross pin on it? It's an honest representation of who I am.

 

~Ariel

 

Ariel, first off hello and good luck with your studies. Choosing that path is surely a noble one but I know the course work is quite difficult, so I wish you the best.

 

I think, again, that my point is being missed. It really has nothing to do with religion or lack there of. or does it have anything to do with what represents YOU. It has nothing to do with your intentions as to whether you are pushing an agenda or not. It merely and simply has everything to do when you place an items with religious/political significance that some people perceive as pushing an agenda, or even more so, offending somebody. (AGAIN, I could care less what is in a cache short of body parts). Many people would not find a crucifix or a pendant of some saint offensive, but some do. Why? I don't know, I am not one of them, but I am sensitive to the fact that there will be people who open a cache, expecting to find lighthearted items and unwittingly see something they really do not want to see.

 

As for the argument of "this item represents who I am" I will toss out the analogy once again that a swastika represents who a neo-nazi is. I think most of us would be offended to see a swastika pin in a cache. Can a crucifix or star of david be as offensive? To some, yes. But it is not important as to how many would be offended, it is important to know that thought should be given to putting items as such in a cache where it is part of a game that is fun and non-secular.

 

So yes, a sig item with a cross on it is one of the items that *COULD* invoke uncomfortable feelings for some. If you want to leave a sig item that is representative of who you are - why not instead leave something that is still related to your religion such as love and peace (well, peace and religion even to this day seems to be questionable, but that is for another argument) rather than a cross or other religious symbol.

[+Totem Clan]

What is the thread about?

 

It's not about debating Christianity and its merits or lack thereof. If you want to do that go to Off Topics. This is about stuff in a box in the woods. Can we talk about that?

 

Once again here's the topic....

 

What's with the religious stuff? That's is religious related swag acceptable in geocaching?

 

Let's restrict our comments to that and not debate religion as a whole, before the mods are forced to close this down.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Totem Clan

[+Totem Clan]

Now back on topic......

 

Could anyone answer the question I ask last night?

 

That's why I asked. I just wanted to clarify.

 

I feel I understand your point now. In fact it seems we probably have many of the same beliefs or opinions. Like you said earlier this is a Technicolor world. Once you start saying you should not put item x in cache because it's not what others want to find in the cache after a hard day, then somebody WILL say that you can't put in item y because they don't want to find it.

I will admit that my earlier post about not putting little cars or flags in a cache was a tad bit of stretch, but the idea behind it was sound. This one statement sums it up.

ANY religious/political material/items, however remote it may be to pushing a agenda, should not be placed in caches as not not offend.

But who's definition of agenda do we use. Can I place a breast cancer awareness pin in a cache? That definitely pushes an agenda. What about a Go Army hat pin? That is political and pushes an agenda. Should they be excluded?

Once again not trying to pick at you, but where do we draw the line, and who makes that decision as to what things are or aren't pushing an agenda?

 

Edit for spelling.

[+nthacker66]

People really need to realize that religion is nonsense. Place your pins or crosses or whatever and go home and pray and worship and all that other stuff, but in the end, nature prevails. Religious people need to wake up and get real. Religion is nonsense. Just live your life and enjoy it.

 

While I am coming from the side of the non-secular (and believe I am no fan of organized religion - again, another topic for debate somwhere else) I think posts like the one above are ignorant and disrespectful. Just because you do not agree with the contexts of religion does not mean that the people who practice are ignorant and uninformed. I know some very intelligent people who are very true to their religious convictions. I think those type of people, who are true to their beliefs and try to follow that path as best they can are commendable and noble.

 

As you say "just live your life and enjoy it" why can't people who are religious do the same. Even more so, they should be able to do just that with catching flak from people like you about it.

 

Again, my argument is that I do not feel any religious item should be placed into a cache so the unassuming who find it expecting a lighthearted game get to see something that might offend them or simply just don't want to see that kind of swag.

[+nthacker66]

So, if I dropped a pentacle into a cache or a copy of the necronomicon into a cache, it is ok?

Sure! Why not? The Pentacle out-dates Christianity. I've got two, one for me and one for She Who Must Be Obeyed. I would question how you would go about dropping a copy of the Necronomicon, as it is a fictional book invented by H. P. Lovecraft, as a story prop. Since I've read every Lovecraft book I know of, I'd love to have a copy.

 

- now if he really said "God made it look older" than he is more ignorant the most of the ignorants.

Or smarter than us all.

Personally, I wasn't around 5 million years ago, so I honestly can't say how certain geological features came to be. Sure, I could accept as a given what some machine told me, or I could assume The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster made it that way. The biggest fault with scientific facts is that they are constantly being replaced with other scientific facts. I prefer the angle of, "This is what I believe to be true, and this is how I came to that belief".

I hope that doesn't make me "ignorant". My beliefs, for the most part, coincide nicely with current scientific theory.

A study of the history of science will tell you that scientists are almost always wrong, and that they will maintain steadfastly that their facts are the only truth, (not unlike an Evangelist), until you drag them, kicking and screaming, to a new set of facts.

 

None of this petty Hannity/Limbaugh/Bortz/Savage garage.

How very fair and balanced of you.

 

if you feel you must dial your brain and IQ down to -1 - there is always Fox News!

Wow. Am I the only one feeling the blind hatred here?

Incidentally, my IQ was a bit higher than 1 the last time it was tested. (about 130 points higher)

I watch Fox News.

Would that make me an anachronism?

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Pretty kewl potential bumper sticker:

"God is Dead! Nietzsche 1882

"Nietzsche is Dead" God 1900

Great post, and no, you weren't the only one feeling blind hatred. Fortunately you saved me the trouble of a wordy response. Thanks!

 

Ah, so now it is "blind hatred" because I do not think swag items should have significant religious context?

 

Sounds like the "either you are with me or against me argument" or even better as one PM said to me "you must hate Jesus since you do not want crosses in caches."

 

Just more proof that ignorance exists at all levels.

[+nthacker66]

So, if I dropped a pentacle into a cache or a copy of the necronomicon into a cache, it is ok?

Sure! Why not? The Pentacle out-dates Christianity. I've got two, one for me and one for She Who Must Be Obeyed. I would question how you would go about dropping a copy of the Necronomicon, as it is a fictional book invented by H. P. Lovecraft, as a story prop. Since I've read every Lovecraft book I know of, I'd love to have a copy.

 

- now if he really said "God made it look older" than he is more ignorant the most of the ignorants.

Or smarter than us all.

Personally, I wasn't around 5 million years ago, so I honestly can't say how certain geological features came to be. Sure, I could accept as a given what some machine told me, or I could assume The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster made it that way. The biggest fault with scientific facts is that they are constantly being replaced with other scientific facts. I prefer the angle of, "This is what I believe to be true, and this is how I came to that belief".

I hope that doesn't make me "ignorant". My beliefs, for the most part, coincide nicely with current scientific theory.

A study of the history of science will tell you that scientists are almost always wrong, and that they will maintain steadfastly that their facts are the only truth, (not unlike an Evangelist), until you drag them, kicking and screaming, to a new set of facts.

 

None of this petty Hannity/Limbaugh/Bortz/Savage garage.

How very fair and balanced of you.

 

if you feel you must dial your brain and IQ down to -1 - there is always Fox News!

Wow. Am I the only one feeling the blind hatred here?

Incidentally, my IQ was a bit higher than 1 the last time it was tested. (about 130 points higher)

I watch Fox News.

Would that make me an anachronism?

 

Religion is nonsense.

To you, perhaps. Not to others. Like so many others things in life, religion is what you make of it. It can be a positive force for a community, or it can be the driving hatred that kills "unbelievers". Neither end of the spectrum really qualifies as nonsense, but oft times, the middle can get pretty silly.

 

Pretty kewl potential bumper sticker:

"God is Dead! Nietzsche 1882

"Nietzsche is Dead" God 1900

 

AND, you ----, *DO NOT DARE* EVER AGAIN lump what I say in with what someone else says, ESPECIALLY ones where one says something that I agree is rude and ignorant such as the "religion is nonsense" comment by simpjkee. As I have said, how very Fox News of you.

[+nthacker66]

Be religious, and hate other people and believe that people who don't believe what you believe are uneducated

Earlier in this thread you attempted to define "nonsense".

Perhaps there's room in your world for another definition of the word?

"Nonsense" would be an assumption that having religious beliefs equals hating others.

(or would that be "Intolerant"?)

I always get those two confused.

 

Your hatred for religion demonstrates your intolerance, which I find to be nonsensical.

(had to tie it all together)

 

Back on topic: Swag is swag. If you are offended by a piece of paper, trade up.

 

Clan Riffster - So if I go to one of your caches and put in N.W.A's (deleted by moderator) CD - swag is swag, right? Trade up.

Edited April 13, 2008 by mtn-man

[+briansnat]

When I leave a rosary I'm leaving it for someone who might want it. Just like the kid toy, or the rain poncho, or a copy of Watership Down. I'm just leaving swag, it just happens to be intended for another Catholic.

 

I think there is a difference between leaving religious oriented items like rosary beads, crucifixes, stars of David

and similar items. I think those are perfectly legit trade items. Heck I've left rosary bead, guardian angel pins

and even one of those fish decals in caches simply because I thought someone else might like to find them. I'm not pushing an agenda, in fact I'm an ex-Christian.

 

Now religious tracts are a horse in a different garage. Their purpose is to proselytize and I do not think they are appropriate items for geocaches. ( I do like the Chick Tracts though. I find them hilarious and collect them, so I guess even some religious tracts are appreciated by some people.}

 

To the people who leave this nonsense in caches, do you really think you are doing your job of spreading the word? I really doubt a single person has ever been converted by a tract found in a geocache. Sticking these things in caches is the lazy man's way out. Why not just stand by the cache and witness to visitors?

[+simpjkee]

People really need to realize that religion is nonsense. Place your pins or crosses or whatever and go home and pray and worship and all that other stuff, but in the end, nature prevails. Religious people need to wake up and get real. Religion is nonsense. Just live your life and enjoy it.

 

 

As you say "just live your life and enjoy it" why can't people who are religious do the same. Even more so, they should be able to do just that with catching flak from people like you about it.

 

I'm all about religious people living their life.

 

Again, my argument is that I do not feel any religious item should be placed into a cache so the unassuming who find it expecting a lighthearted game get to see something that might offend them or simply just don't want to see that kind of swag.

So, you think that all religious nonsense should be removed? Well, I agree with that!

[+mtn-man]

Stick to the topic.

 

(Yes, that is a big red period.)

[+Totem Clan]

I told you guys.

 

Come on let's stay on topic.

 

And I'm still waiting.

 

 

Could anyone answer the question I ask last night?

 

That's why I asked. I just wanted to clarify.

 

I feel I understand your point now. In fact it seems we probably have many of the same beliefs or opinions. Like you said earlier this is a Technicolor world. Once you start saying you should not put item x in cache because it's not what others want to find in the cache after a hard day, then somebody WILL say that you can't put in item y because they don't want to find it.

I will admit that my earlier post about not putting little cars or flags in a cache was a tad bit of stretch, but the idea behind it was sound. This one statement sums it up.

 

ANY religious/political material/items, however remote it may be to pushing a agenda, should not be placed in caches as not not offend.

But who's definition of agenda do we use. Can I place a breast cancer awareness pin in a cache? That definitely pushes an agenda. What about a Go Army hat pin? That is political and pushes an agenda. Should they be excluded?

Once again not trying to pick at you, but where do we draw the line, and who makes that decision as to what things are or aren't pushing an agenda?

 

Edit for spelling.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Totem Clan

[+Moose Mob]

Sorry folks, this has been way too far off topic for way too long. If you want to learn more, please refer to the other agenda based SWAG threads of years gone by. If there is more to discuss, give it a week before starting a new thread. Let this one cool off.

 

Now go caching!