Coin design and copywrite issues

[+GeoBlank]

Are there rules when it comes to coins and using other brands or trademarks? Is it up to the coin designer or the coin "minter"?

 

I guess I ask because a set of Lost the TV Show coins would be cool. One per station maybe with the bagua symbol.

 

I have seen many coins that could be considered infringing on someone elses design so thought I would see what the experts say.

[+tokencollector]

There are probably a few coins out there that do infringe on copyright / trademark. The chance of getting caught is probably slim. The cost is caught could be very steep.

 

Many if not minters have statements that obtaining copyright permissions is the responsibility of the designer. A minter would have to chime in here, but I suspect that they would be liable if they produced a design using a copyrighted image - so I'm guessing that they would be skeptical, if not careful about such a project.

 

Now, a parody coin (Found?) might work.

 

There is a contingent of board regulars who might also chime in and say "What does the coin have to do with geocaching?" I'm not typically among them, but might be here. I probably woudln't be interested in a coin that memorializes the Lost TV show.

[+GeoBlank]

Thanks for the response.

 

I find it interesting that you mention the coins are not related to caching since more and more coins that show up are less about caching and more about what interest the coin designer.

 

Dharma Logo's has about as much to do with Caching as the covetted Flush Geocoins (A, K, Q, J, 10), or Zodiac coins.

 

To each his own I guess on what coins they buy. My favorites are always related to Jeep's. (I am looking for a 2LuknF8)

[+pghlooking]

I give the OP credit for asking since if you just look at coins here you would easily be confused. I can think of several without even needing a second thought that either ripped off someone else's trademarked logo.

 

Coins are no different than any other type of printed material. In order to reproduce something you need permission, period. I don't know why this is such a gray area for some people. GC doesn't get involved, and until now the minters haven't gotten involved. I think it would benefit the community if they both helped enforce these legal violations. If the artwork submitted is in clear violation, the person wishing to do the coin should be told so. if the coin is reported as being a violation, and proof submitted along with it, then the coin should not be produced or should be stopped at whatever point it is. Allowing these coins to continue only shows a lack of integrity upon on the person submitting it, and the lax policy by GC is permitting it. Everyone involved is making money on it, so I feel they all have a part and obligation in stopping it. I would venture to bet that if a lawsuit was filed by the one infringed upon, it would include both GC and the coin company. Turning a blind eye when it suits you is a poor practice.

[oakcoins]

GC doesn't get involved, and until now the minters haven't gotten involved.

 

"I am not a Lawyer"

 

One reason we do not get involved is if we block one item and on a different item let it pass, we could get sued because we selectively enforce trademarks/copyrights. There would also be a lot of time and effort to review each design. We are not always versed on what is and is not a copyright or trademark.

Edited July 14, 2007 by oakcoins

[+pghlooking]

There are some though that contain the R, C, or TM symbol that should leave no room for judgement.

 

Ulitmately it does go on the person doing the artwork, but it would be nice to see some others help enforce this when able. It will only go to help protect the communities image against outsiders assuming we are nothing but a bunch of rip off artists.

[gridlox]

Some food for thought....

 

In the 90s in the USA commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony.

Of course this is entirely up to the company that you are "borrowing" the logos from to make the case again you and press charges.

 

Working in the sign industry for the past 10 years I have heard of numerous cases of where folks were nailed making logo decals for thier customers. Most of the cases were of folks that were making small quantities and selling them one at a time for individual customers. Usually the type you find at flea markets, car shows & fairs.

Harley Davidson, Fox Racing, NASCAR, & Disney are some of the most vigilant about protecting their trademarks and have people that do nothing but surf the net and travel around to the flea markets, car shows & fairs looking for non-authorized sellers.

"Most" only recieve a "Cease & Desist" letter from their lawyers on the first offense. And then they are watched like a hawk. If they continue to sell, then lawsuits are brought against them.

 

"BUT" there is alway the chance they can come after you on your first offense if they deem that you are profitting more than they think you should without their approval.

There was one sign shop where the guy was offering trailer logo packages with the Harley logo as the main element in the design. Harley came in with their high powered lawyers and took the whole shop and put him out of business & bankrupted the guy.

 

Just a couple more things to consider...

*These days, almost all things are copyrighted the moment they are designed, and no copyright notice is required.

*Copyright is still violated whether you charged money or not, only damages are affected by that.

 

D-man

Edited July 15, 2007 by gridlox

[gridlox]

But my coin is a "Parody"!!

 

Is is really?

 

Here is a good article explaining "Parody" from The Publishing Law Center website.

 

Parody: Fair Use or Copyright Infringement

 

D-man

Edited July 15, 2007 by gridlox

[+Theseus]

I'm amazed at how many coin designers completely disregard copyright issues. Several coins come to mind that I am certain would never have gotten legal approval. Take any corporate brand and I think it very unlikely that they would authorize its use on a geocoin. I have reached out to two companies asking about making coins using a corporate image and have been staunchly (and understandably) denied. That said, I only see infringements - I don't see the number of times cachers come up with a design but abandon it due to copyright issues.

 

I don't think the mints should be held responsible (though I don't confess to have much of an understanding of the law here). It's the designers that are using the images/names, etc. I also realize that geocoins, for the most part, are small in scope and are able to fly below the radar. That doesn't make it right but does explain why so many are comfortable not addressing the legal implications. If any of the coins which use images/names without permission were to show up in Wal-Mart you can bet there would be swift legal action.

[+Eartha]

The best advice I can give is don't copy. Be original. Ignorance is no excuse if you get caught.

 

And then there is that "commercial" aspect, but that's being discussed in another thread.

 

Besides, geocachers don't get lost, we have GPS!

[+Haughton's Hunters]

Because we can easily and quickly make custom coins from wood and on the aluminum discs we have, we have made many different custom coins. However, we absolutely refuse to make a coin where the design is copyrighted. And yes, this is only if we know it. We had one person wanting a coin with the logo for DC shoes. I have a 13 year old daughter and thus recognized the logo immediately. Neither of the other guys did. I asked if he had permission to use the logo and we never heard from him again.

Then on the other hand, I made a coin for person in the Army that wanted the Army Corps of Engineers emblem. I asked if they had permission to use the emblem, they asked up the chain of command until they got to someone who said it was OK. Same with our Boy Scouts designs. We got the green light from national to make and sell the design to anyone. Their thought is we were selling the coin, not claiming the design, so it was OK in this case.

But plain and simple, if someone comes to us with a design that we recognize as copyrighted, we will ask if they have permission to use it. Does this mean we catch them all? Certainly not, but we at least try.

My suggestion is the same as Ertha, be original and don't copy anyone. If if you do want to copy a companies logo, contact them and ask them for permission. It's pretty simple to do and you may be surprised.

[+UOTrackers]

Only to add my own experience. I have a design that is based on one of my favorite artist's designs. It is NOT his art, and anyone who knows his work can see the differences, but to be on the safe side we have been in contact with his foundation. We have the green light on the project and it will become reality. The only thing holding it up is the mint (in china) made a mistake on the back side of the coin and it has to be re-designed, and since Bella accidentally broke my stylus, it hasn't been finished yet!

 

Also just my 2 cents. I think coins have evolved to the point of people wanting to send out things that they like, things that are special to them, which isn't always caching related, and I think that's a very special thing. It's like taking a small part of you and sending it out to be discovered by the world. Who knows the friends you can make by sending out a coin and finding that someone has the same interest in you because the coin makes them feel the same way it makes you feel. OK so that might be corny, but I think it's true. Dare to dream, find something that makes you feel good and make it a reality! Then set it free and watch it soar.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

I'm amazed at how many coin designers completely disregard copyright issues. Several coins come to mind that I am certain would never have gotten legal approval. Take any corporate brand and I think it very unlikely that they would authorize its use on a geocoin. I have reached out to two companies asking about making coins using a corporate image and have been staunchly (and understandably) denied. That said, I only see infringements - I don't see the number of times cachers come up with a design but abandon it due to copyright issues.

 

I don't think the mints should be held responsible (though I don't confess to have much of an understanding of the law here). It's the designers that are using the images/names, etc. I also realize that geocoins, for the most part, are small in scope and are able to fly below the radar. That doesn't make it right but does explain why so many are comfortable not addressing the legal implications. If any of the coins which use images/names without permission were to show up in Wal-Mart you can bet there would be swift legal action.

 

I have to agree with you. I've seen several that came awful close and a couple blatant uses that I can only hope received permission first. However it happens, the designer who creates the art is responsible. The mints would not likely receive any penalty for creating work according to the work order. The person placing the order is going to take the fall. Gridlox brought up a good point, too. Even a small order of 250 coins averaging $10 each would be enough to invoke a serious penalty.

 

It's just not worth taking the risk. I've had to hurt some feelings by refusing a few designs for just these reasons, but I'm not taking the fall for someone who just doesn't care.

[+Renegade Knight]

In the days of old, so long as you were not using the copyrighted logo etc. for $$ gain or costing them $$ you were good to go.

 

I'm not so sure anymore.

 

It's worth nothing though that close to the logo and the logo are not the same thing. At what point they become the same is for a sea or lawyers to argue over but that brings you back to the first sentence about money.

 

Oh, and since someone above posted that they refuse to make a coin that has a copyrighted design. The DCMA ensured that all designs are copyrighted.

 

Everything I've ever written in these forums. Every crude sketch I've made, ever idea presented. It's all my intellectual property and I don't need to lift a finger to make it so. However....If someone quotes me, cites the course and isn't making money off it it, that again brings us back to the first sentence. If they are, please clue me in. I could use a second income stream.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

I'm amazed at how many coin designers completely disregard copyright issues. Several coins come to mind that I am certain would never have gotten legal approval. Take any corporate brand and I think it very unlikely that they would authorize its use on a geocoin. I have reached out to two companies asking about making coins using a corporate image and have been staunchly (and understandably) denied. That said, I only see infringements - I don't see the number of times cachers come up with a design but abandon it due to copyright issues.

 

I don't think the mints should be held responsible (though I don't confess to have much of an understanding of the law here). It's the designers that are using the images/names, etc. I also realize that geocoins, for the most part, are small in scope and are able to fly below the radar. That doesn't make it right but does explain why so many are comfortable not addressing the legal implications. If any of the coins which use images/names without permission were to show up in Wal-Mart you can bet there would be swift legal action.

Judging only on the strict enforcement of copyright laws in a place such as Kinko's(in order to protect themselves) I would guess that the mints could also be held liable