Where does geo-caching rate among ethical sports?

[+StarBrand]

All it took in SC was the "perception" that folks were playing a game in cemetaries - then no matter what rules were in place or being followed - it was automatically wrong and on the fast track to be illegal.

[+BlueDeuce]

When dealing with the public and authorities, semantics is everything.

 

Once "game" got hooked in the discussion, it was hard to pull it away from the direction it was going.

 

Geocaching is nothing like baseball, basketball, or bowling.

 

Arguing otherwise only makes it harder to keep your hobby a viable one in the eyes who can really make it rough on us.

 

Well if my local authorities were dealing with semantics I would explain to them as well that the term game when applied to geocaching, isn't like dodge ball or marbles (oops,both decent sports).

 

Explain to me why a term 'game' is the heart of the problem with locals, most people I see elected can get the difference. e.g the local Parks Commissioner.

 

Edited for reference

Edited February 13, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+Kealia]

The debate over "game" vs "sport" is more than just personal preference. The issue is the perception and the connotations that come with the word "game". Whether we like it or agree with it, it does congure up a certain image.

 

It happens all the time.

Think of "skateboarder".

What do you come up with? A professional X-Games athlete like Tony Hawk in an organized venue, or a bunch of teenagers in baggy clothes hanging around where they shouldn't and skating down steps, handrails, etc. and being a nuisance.

 

Given that this may not be the BEST example, but the bottom line is that certain words automatically predjudice people's thoughts. The word "game" does that with people in power.

 

To stay on topic: I see most cachers as very honest and very friendly as well. As with any cross-section of the population, you will find people at both ends of the spectrum. To that end, I don't find cachers to be exceptional or above-average in these qualities.

Edited February 13, 2007 by kealia

[+BlueDeuce]

All it took in SC was the "perception" that folks were playing a game in cemetaries - then no matter what rules were in place or being followed - it was automatically wrong and on the fast track to be illegal.

 

perception yes, but not terminology.

 

If terminology is an issue then you have failed to set perception.

 

 

edit to remove double word.

Edited February 13, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+BlueDeuce]

...

Edited February 14, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+cobalt_abyss]

Hey guys... remember me? The one who started the thread? Not that I don't appreciate the passionate feedback, but I think you all have got WAAAAAYYYY off topic.

---The whole point of the post was to compare moral compasses between geocaching and other mainstream sports/activities. I was trying to express my grattude that there is an activity out there that people still take seriously, and whose ethics are important.---Now back to your normal programming...

[+BlueDeuce]

I was trying to express my grattude that there is an activity out there that people still take seriously,

 

And that was Golf. no?

 

Actually, geocaching is a sport played by the same decent folks you meet while walking down the street.

Edited February 14, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+briansnat]

I was trying to express my grattude that there is an activity out there that people still take seriously,

 

And that was Golf. no?

 

Actually, geocaching is a sport played by the same decent folks you meet while walking down the street.

 

...and the scoundrels as well.

 

 

Actually, despite the fact that there is often discussion here about practices that some feel are unethical, or questionable, I think that geocachers as a whole are probably more honest than the general population. That's because the sport by its very nature depends on the good will and honesty of others.

 

I once explained the sport to someone who seemed overly impressed by it. When I tried to explain that it really wasn't that hard, he explained that it wasn't the hunt that impressed him. It was the idea that the sport involved players placing caches for enjoyment of people they might never meet.

[+Team Dubbin]

Actually, geocaching is a sport played by the same decent folks you meet while walking down the street.

 

That sad thing is that the game is also played by the same not so decent folks that you meet walking down the street. We had one cacher in the area that was going around stealing the ammo cans and replacing them with tupperware. I guess thats what you would call and honest thief.

[+mini cacher]

I once explained the sport to someone who seemed overly impressed by it. When I tried to explain that it really wasn't that hard, he explained that it wasn't the hunt that impressed him. It was the idea that the sport involved players placing caches for enjoyment of people they might never meet.

A very nice view of the whole thing... I like that.

 

Also, you can't use the number of "angst" posts in the forum as an accurate measure of how good cachers are. For every 1 "Hey this AppleHead thought it was ok to sign the outside of the container" type post that gets posted... there could probably be 1000 "Hey CacherX replaced my cache exactly as he found it" type posts. But people are far more likely to come here to gripe than to praise. I think that's human nature. And since most (if not all) cachers are human... I wouldn't expect any less... er more... of them either.

[+stormcloud]

I think that Geocaching is very ethical. We just had an ABC event where i got to meet a group of local cachers. These were great people. I have never meet a cacher yet that i didn't like.

For the most part like any activity there will be the 2%er that will break rules, cheat or other unethical behaviour but they are the exception not the rule. I would not be leary of taking my kids around group of geocachers like i would other groups. I would say that geocachers follow the three R's. Respect for themselves, respect for those around them and respect for the enviroment around them (city or trail).

 

My Collins Gage Dictionary defines a sport as:

1. a game, contest or other pastime requiring skill and physical exertion

2. amusement or recreation

 

Though i understand the thoughts about perceptions geocaching by definition is a game, amusement, pastime, recreation, that requires exertion, and various levels of skill. However the fact that this can be openly debated shows a level of respect and helps maintain Geocaching as an ethical sport/game.

[+edscott]

You don't but the dictionary does.

 

Well, whoever put it in there is wrong. This is nothing but a game. A very fun game I might add.

 

Hey ESPN calls poker a sport. Eating 500 chicken wings in 15 minutes is considered by some to be a sport. Don't get hung up on your definitions.

[+edscott]

---I have been a mainsteam sports enthusiest all my life. One thing that has turned me off to many sports is the unethical behavior of many sport stars in recent years. The sancity of many sports has been tarnished, if not ruined, by those that play outside the lines (Pro baseball and basketball come to mind)...

---On the flip side golf has always been a sport of high moral standards. Players would rather lose than to cheat, and often times turn themselves in over minor infractions. This is how I see geo-caching in my limited time participating in this sport. I was wondering how you all view the "state of the game"? Do you think that the average player has above average honor and ethics when abidding by the rules? Most importantly, can the game remain respectable? Or will it be ruined by those that have low standards...

 

I have only three points of reference through personal experience. Orienteering, Golfing and Geocaching. Others have pointed out that certain groups of golfers have "house rules" that are certainly not in the official rules of golf. I have seen almost none of that in Orienteering. We have a huge binder of rules and they are followed by essentially every club and person in the sport. Now where is that rulebook of Geocaching? None of us follow the rules because there are none. Considering there are no rules I think Geocachers do very well in conforming to a general set of guidelines. Logging finds for unfound caches is outside my personal standards, but it has also been said that a cache should be found by using a GPS. Whatever.. I'm not upset with someong having 200 "retirement caches".. hope they don't mind my GPS-less ones. I think we do OK and the "sport" is not going to suffer because of a diverse interpretation of the guidelines.

[+Renegade Knight]

Hey guys... remember me? The one who started the thread? Not that I don't appreciate the passionate feedback, but I think you all have got WAAAAAYYYY off topic.

---The whole point of the post was to compare moral compasses between geocaching and other mainstream sports/activities. I was trying to express my grattude that there is an activity out there that people still take seriously, and whose ethics are important.---Now back to your normal programming...

Sorry about that. At lest the derailment was about the ethical perception of geocaching by outsiders!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Well if my local authorities were dealing with semantics I would explain to them as well that the term game when applied to geocaching, isn't like dodge ball or marbles (oops,both decent sports).

 

Explain to me why a term 'game' is the heart of the problem with locals, most people I see elected can get the difference. e.g the local Parks Commissioner....

 

It's not the heart of the problem. Just a piece of the larger puzzle. We are hardwired for emotionial responces. Not logical. It impacts our judgment. This is true of everyone.

 

An example. A oaf of a kid who has never grown up and taken responsibility for his own life or making his own way, one day goes out and gets a job at a fast food joint and say's it's a first step. The perception is "you will never make a living doing that, you need to do more and try harder, you can't slack off on looking for work!"

 

Now take a kid did all the right things coming out of school, who was laid off of a good job. But takes that same fast food job to help pay the bills while they keep looking for something better. The perceptoin is they are doing the right thing and that they will go do better.

 

Same job. Same first step. Same expressed intention. Competly different view of the same thing. The first kid has to work longer and harder to prove himself. The second kid...is already there.

 

It's so much better to be percieved as that second person. We need to work to make geocaching have that same perception. That way the responce is "how can we work with you guys to solve the problem..." instead of "your stupid game is the problem...". It makes the job that the leaders of geocaching willhave as they face various issues far easier.

 

It comes down to reputation and credibility.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If terminology is an issue then you have failed to set perception....

 

Words have an emotional tone attached to them that set perceptions. The press does this to set the tone for many an editorial.

 

Cheesy examples

 

Raw Meat vs. Fresh Steak.

Outside the box thinking vs. radical thinker.

Concerned Citizen vs. Neighborhood Busybody.

 

Even in US history we paint using specific words.

Forefathers vs. Traitors.

[CoyoteRed]

...If terminology is an issue then you have failed to set perception....

 

Words have an emotional tone attached to them that set perceptions. The press does this to set the tone for many an editorial.

 

Cheesy examples

 

Raw Meat vs. Fresh Steak.

Outside the box thinking vs. radical thinker.

Concerned Citizen vs. Neighborhood Busybody.

 

Even in US history we paint using specific words.

Forefathers vs. Traitors.

 

Church Retreat vs. Cult Compound.

Freedom Fighter vs. Terrorist.

Terrorist vs. Thug with an agenda.

Hoax Bomb vs. Unusual Advertisement.

 

It's all in the packaging.

[+BlueDeuce]

...If terminology is an issue then you have failed to set perception....

 

Words have an emotional tone attached to them that set perceptions. The press does this to set the tone for many an editorial.

 

Cheesy examples

 

Raw Meat vs. Fresh Steak.

Outside the box thinking vs. radical thinker.

Concerned Citizen vs. Neighborhood Busybody.

 

Even in US history we paint using specific words.

Forefathers vs. Traitors.

 

Church Retreat vs. Cult Compound.

Freedom Fighter vs. Terrorist.

Terrorist vs. Thug with an agenda.

Hoax Bomb vs. Unusual Advertisement.

 

It's all in the packaging.

 

Packaging and words utilize previously set perceptions.

 

For example WorldCom had to change its name because it couldn’t shake the public perception that it was headed by a bunch of crooks. I remember an editorial cartoon showing people on the street, one bum yelled at a passer-by “WorldCom you, buddy! Another guy was looking at his shoe “Ah man, I stepped in a big pile of WorldCom!” etc. Out of the top of the WorldCom building shows someone saying, “Oops, time for a name change.” The term didn’t change, the perception did. They had to switch to another ‘word’ that had a different set of perceptions.

 

If someone doesn’t know anything about Geocaching and someone tells them about these flower-stomping, bomb-scaring, littering geocachers they’ll think, “Well I don’t know what Geocaching is but flower stomping, bomb scares and littering are all bad things. These people must be stopped!” From then on the term geocacher has bad connotations. We now have an issue with our terminology because of perception.

 

Now if we work with the park commissioner setting up an agreement that we will verify with a ranger that an area isn’t environmentally sensitive before placing the cache, that we make ourselves available and quickly address any issue or concern, that we hold CITO events and clean up the parks, we are setting a perception. Now when someone talks about littering geocachers the commissioner doesn’t buy into it because his perception says different. And it won't matter if it's called a game or sport, or whatever.

 

So if there is a problem with the terms it is because we have failed to set perception.

 

edit: minor rewrite.

Edited February 15, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[CoyoteRed]

So if there is a problem with the terms it is because we have failed to set perception.

 

Believe me, I've been on the wrong end of what you just described. I was talking to one of my elected officials about the bill and when I got around to telling her I was a geocacher it became, "Oh, you're one of those." That does not, in any way, change the fact I will not call this hobby a game or a sport in a public forum. You simply can't effectively combat a misconception with poorly selected terms or ones that don't put it in the best possible light.

[+BlueDeuce]

So if there is a problem with the terms it is because we have failed to set perception.

 

Believe me, I've been on the wrong end of what you just described. I was talking to one of my elected officials about the bill and when I got around to telling her I was a geocacher it became, "Oh, you're one of those." That does not, in any way, change the fact I will not call this hobby a game or a sport in a public forum. You simply can't effectively combat a misconception with poorly selected terms or ones that don't put it in the best possible light.

 

Fair enough.

Edited February 15, 2007 by BlueDeuce

[+Renegade Knight]

....So if there is a problem with the terms it is because we have failed to set perception....

 

Given that I agree with the examples you give but not this statement I think we are debating two sides of the same coin.

 

Game has perceptions attached to it that we don't want attached to caching. By not using the word game when describing caching we are trying to set perception in the light we want. It's a proactive process. Perceptions come from many sources. Not just cachers. The press could do a negative editorial and set negative perceptions.

 

When lawmakers uniformly don't think "game" when they think caching. Then we have succeded. Take the NSS. When the BLM wants someone to check out a cave system, that's who they call. That's what we want. Obviously geocaching isn't caving and the expertise is different, but that's the respect we want.

[+mini cacher]

gosh... I never knew that our government officials had such hatred for games...

[+BlueDeuce]

gosh... I never knew that our government officials had such hatred for games...

 

Yeah I know, but some do. Others just don't understand and when they are forced to make a decision, they base it on what they know. Just like the rest of us.

[+mini cacher]

I have to wonder which game soiled the word for them? What the heck were people "playing" in public that gave the word "game" such a bad name?

 

btw, I don't think of geocaching as a game... and I guess that's a good thing.

[+briansnat]

I have to wonder which game soiled the word for them? What the heck were people "playing" in public that gave the word "game" such a bad name?

 

Its not that it has a bad name, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a frivolous connotation to the word game.

 

Words are powerful things and careful use of them is important when you are trying to promote certain perceptions. If you remember the Dole vs. Clinton presidential race some years ago. Dole was espousing a tax cut plan, but every time Clinton or Gore mentioned it, it became a tax cut scheme. Plan and scheme have very similar definitions and can often be used interchangeably, but the word scheme has a slightly negative connotation.

 

Likewise, "game" and "sport" are very similar and can often be used interchangeably, but "sport" conjures a more serious image.

 

If you don't agree with what I'm saying then go "scheme/plan" with your "henchmen/toadies/lackeys" or "backers/advocates/supporters" to "flame"/"debate" me.

Edited February 16, 2007 by briansnat

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

... Likewise, "game" and "sport" are very similar and can often be used interchangeably, but "sport" conjures a more serious image.

Excellent argument for using the word game, as it would be hard to find anything more frivolous and less serious than geocaching!

 

If geocaching ever becomes serious business to you, step back and consider whether that's a healthy attitude!

 

It's a silly game people play to amuse themselves, folks.

No two play it the same way.

No winning or losing.

 

Nothing sporting about it!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

 

Games end, then you start over. Some sports are games in addition to being sports. Caching is not a game in the real sence. It's also not a game in the political sence. Calling it a game is ignorant in that it does cause harm. Calling it a game when you know what kind of harm it can cause is not wise.

 

You have a choice to make. I hope others who read this make the right one.

 

Really where are you trying to go with this? Its not like the world is trying to shut down geocaching. You call it a sport (a sport consists of games) I call it a game/hobby, who REALLY cares... Thinking that geocaching is going to be banned because people call it a game is whats truly ignorant.

 

It appears that I know of more caching history where these things did come into play. Stupid as it sounds, it was important. You don't post like you have that knowledge. When you have better information I doubt you would say what you just said. However if you do look into this and learn about the trial by fire that happened in South Carolina and what they went through and then you still wish to call me ignorant and debate the point, great. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to counterpoint you in that thread.

 

Key words for a forum search if you are inclined. South Carolina + Cemetary. If you look up the representatives name you will get a lot more hits as well.

 

Edit: Just looked you have been around long enough. You must of missed that storm.

I didn't miss it, I watched it closely. 'Cemetery' was the key word in that farce, not 'sport' 'game' or 'hobby'.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Hey guys... remember me? The one who started the thread? Not that I don't appreciate the passionate feedback, but I think you all have got WAAAAAYYYY off topic.

---The whole point of the post was to compare moral compasses between geocaching and other mainstream sports/activities. I was trying to express my grattude that there is an activity out there that people still take seriously, and whose ethics are important.---Now back to your normal programming...

Oops, missed this one on the first read!

 

Yes, I know that geocachers as a group are ethical and mral people!

 

I've met a bunch of us, know even more online.

 

It's not geocaching, however, that makes people good.

 

It's more that god people are drawn to outdoor activities, technology and social activities.

 

I would say the same for hunters, fishermen, hikers, campers.

 

I can't explain te sociology or phsychology of it but have you ever noticed how friendly and open campers are in a State Park?

 

You lock your house up tight only to go leave everything you have with you out on picnic tables and inside a zippered tent, and feel safer in the campground than in your neighborhood!

 

Yes, there are bad actors in any group of people, but I've never locked my car at a geocaching event!

[+Retcon]

I have to wonder which game soiled the word for them?

 

I'm sure D&D had a lot to do with it, and Grand Theft Auto didn't help.

 

I just got this vision of a news story... GEOCACHING: RUINING OUR YOUTH? with video of some dumbass running into traffic looking at their GPS. Think of the children!

[Clan Riffster]

I didn't miss it, I watched it closely. 'Cemetery' was the key word in that farce, not 'sport' 'game' or 'hobby'.

Ed, I'm not sure that's correct. Had that politician ranted and raved about folks dropping off flowers, sitting under trees reading or studying the history of tombstones, (all activities which occur on a regular basis in cemeteries), her audience would likely have been much smaller. Because she complained of an oft misunderstood activity, calling it a "game", which was being played in cemeteries, her audience was large.

[+briansnat]

I didn't miss it, I watched it closely. 'Cemetery' was the key word in that farce, not 'sport' 'game' or 'hobby'.

 

I think it was playing games in cemeteries that was the issue. Taking tombstone rubbings, bird watching and geneology are hobbies and I don't recall the legislature looking to ban those in cemeteries.

 

Excellent argument for using the word game, as it would be hard to find anything more frivolous and less serious than geocaching!

 

I see geocaching as a way to facilitate the exploration of the world around me, discover new and interesting places, learn something, get some exercise, make new friends and sometimes test myself. How is that frivolous? I may have to re-check my dictionary.

Edited February 16, 2007 by briansnat

[+mikeslomka]

To address the OP, I have only been caching a little over a month now and I agree that there are many good, honest people involved in geocaching. I have only met one cacher in person, but he was very nice and polite. It was a nice to meet somebody for the first time and think of him as a teammate, rather than an opponent. I am looking forward to going to my first event so that I can meet some more cachers and learn from them.

 

I would also guess that there are some less than honest people that I have yet to meet. I say this because a few days ago, I accidently lost the coordinates to one stage of a multi. I searched for a while, but I couldn't find it. When I emailed the cache owner and offered to go out and replace what I lost, she emailed me back and told me how considerate I was, and how geocaching needs more people like that. To be honest, that kind of surprised me. I feel that if you break something, you should fix it. I was only offering to make right what I had made wrong. Her reaction leads me to believe that some people wouldn't do that.

 

I also think that we probably don't hear much from the dishonest cachers. If a cache goes missing, most cachers automatically assume that it was "muggles".

 

As far as the debate over sport vs game, I say neither. To me, personally, this is a hobby. I am not competing against anybody for any prize. If other cachers want to make it a competition for the FTF prize, go ahead. I recently posted in a log that for me, it is about the journey, not the destination. But that is a choice that each cacher has to make for themselves.

 

I also enjoy the exercise and the time I spend with my family, or by myself, whichever it happens to be at the time.

 

This is kind of off topic, but here is something else to consider. The arguing and flaming that goes on in these forums are most likely read by the same people that want to ban geocaching. I am active on many hunting forums, and we had to learn that lesson the hard way. It's not fun when somebody uses your own words to show how the group can't stick together on issues. I can't tell you how many times I have read quotes on animal rights forums(we also read their mail) using the words from somebody that I know to prove how all of us are ignorant rednecks.

 

The same could happen here. If you have a group that wants to shut geocaching down, all they have to do is log on to this forum, and they can gather as much ammunition as they want.

 

Just something to think about.