Pushing the limits

[+StarBrand]

Its been an interesting month for me. It is just the 15th and I have 86 finds so far this month (when I get around to logging all of them) across a big chunk of the Western US. In my travels, I noticed a few things and I am not sure what the best approach should be. Several of the caches I visited seemed to be clear violations of existing guidelines. I posted an SBA on one cache that was located underneath a railroad bridge just past 2 signs that clearly stated "no- trespassing railroad property". I got mightily flamed by several local cachers that the railway had been abondoned some years ago. It looked weed free and still had rails going off as far as the eye could see. My Bad - I was wrong. But nothing on the cache page mentioned railroad or permission or abondoned or any such thing - just looked wrong to me. It wasn't.

 

Several other caches were in city parks - below grade in buried containers. I doubt permission was given but who knows. I emailed 1 cache owner and was told "none of your business".

 

Found 2 caches that defaced public property - both placed within the last few months.

 

Found one in a cemetary on the headstone.

 

Some of these caches have been found by the local volunteer approver - they just seem wrong.

 

My point is, these seem to be clear violations of the guidelines and they all certainly set bad precedant for new cachers. I beileve they would also upset local land managers. I just don't know the best approach to try and help protect our little activity from further government regulation. Really bad that we tend to violate our own guidelines - makes local authorities want to regulate us.

 

However, as with the railroad example above - they may all have a legit explanation. In order to avoid making anybody look like a cache cop or major pain, I wish these folks would clearly state in the descriptions about permissions or exemptions. That way, we as a community wouldn't have to email owners or post SBA logs and look foolish.

 

For now, I am emailing a few owners to try and clear things up but I can't help but feeling like that is nearly as upsetting as posting an SBA. Maybe I should just ignore them - but part of me can't.....sigh.

 

(now waiting for the "play your own way" crowd to jump me.)

[+ibycus]

I think you're handling it just the way I'd handle it. (with the possible exception of 'below grade caches' which would really depend for me on the exact 'look' of the hole)

[+StarBrand]

I think you're handling it just the way I'd handle it. (with the possible exception of 'below grade caches' which would really depend for me on the exact 'look' of the hole)

PVC pipe or similar capped with a lid that made it look like sprinkler controls. Completely fake as there are no lines or valves or wiring. In brand new condition. Again - in public parks. Found 4 of these in the past month or so - all in public parks. 8 inches to 15 inches deep with lid.

[+uxorious]

I wouldn't worry about posting a SBA for the cache on a railroad bridge. Something should have been mentioned in the cache page.

 

Years ago there was a nice hike written up in a book, that took you down an abandoned rail line to an old bridge. I was hiking along these "abandoned" tracks, when I had to jump off and step aside for a small train.

 

Seems that, although everyone thought of this line as abandoned, it was still being used on rare occasions to run supplies into logging areas! The clue should have been the No Trespassing signs.

 

When this line was finally abandoned and they started converting it to trails, the no trespassing signs came down.

[+Glenn]

If a cache placed so that it violates a guideline and it isn't grandfathered (the cache was placed before the guideline was written) then the cache owner, as a curtesy, should make note of departure from the guidelines on the cahce page. If they don't then they shouldn't be offened by emails or SBAs stating that the cache isn't within' geocaching.com guidelines.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

...

(now waiting for the "play your own way" crowd to jump me.)

 

OK, from your last line you already know what we're going to say, so why ask?

 

Clearly these caches were reviewed, even found by a reviewer.

 

Permission and placement issues are between the owner and the Reviewer, and no explanation need be made in the description.

 

OTOH

 

You will occasionally run across a poorly placed hide (outside the Guidelines), maybe even one that's been moved or changed after being Reviewed, or one where the Reviewer was deceived, and it does help the game to notify the Reviewer, but questioning should perhaps be done gently and via PM or email before public complaint.

 

Becoming the cache cop won't enhance your image or game, I don't think.

[+ibycus]

It is worth noting that when a reviewer reviews a cache they are really only doing it based on what is on the cache page, and what they can find on various mapping sites.

When they go out caching in the real world, they may not really want to be the cache police either, and being the local reviewer puts them in a potential 'conflict of interest' type position.

They can't possibly hope to visit even the smallest fraction of the caches that they review, so applying special considerations to the ones they do visit isn't really a good idea (IMHO). Now... If someone else brings the rule violation to their attention, that's a different story. That kind of reviewing can be applied to every cache, equally.

Just because a reviewer happend to visit a cache, doesn't mean that they approved of it.

[+ibycus]

I think you're handling it just the way I'd handle it. (with the possible exception of 'below grade caches' which would really depend for me on the exact 'look' of the hole)

PVC pipe or similar capped with a lid that made it look like sprinkler controls. Completely fake as there are no lines or valves or wiring. In brand new condition. Again - in public parks. Found 4 of these in the past month or so - all in public parks. 8 inches to 15 inches deep with lid.

 

That I'd probably make some comment about what I think of this type of cache... I don't really like it, but I don't think it violates the guidelines (i.e. doesn't *necessarily* require something pointy to hide or find). I made a similar comment about a cache I found in Ottawa attached to an electrical box, that to an outsider didn't look like an electrical box... Didn't really violate the guidelines, but really not a good idea. I was poking around it for a good 5 minutes before I realized what it was.

[+Kit Fox]

On several occasions I have privately contacted the local reviewers about caches that violated the law or GC guidelines. It works out better this way. Some were blatant abuses, and should have never been approved, had the reviewer been told the truth, by the cache placer.

[+9Key]

Becoming the cache cop won't enhance your image or game, I don't think.

Right on. Mr Rambler!

[+ventura_kids]

On several occasions I have found caches that clearly met the guidelines, yet I wish they had not been approved.

 

I guess you can tell which group I side with...

 

Find them...log them... move on.....

[+ibycus]

You will occasionally run across a poorly placed hide (outside the Guidelines), maybe even one that's been moved or changed after being Reviewed, or one where the Reviewer was deceived, and it does help the game to notify the Reviewer, but questioning should perhaps be done gently and via PM or email before public complaint.

 

I for one think that it is important for things like this to be part of the public record. That way after the fact there is no question as to exactly what went on. If I say,

 

"I was a little worried about this cache. Approaching the cache site, I saw all kinds of "No trespassing" signs, and it seems to be placed right next to an active rail line, could the cache owner please help me out here?"

 

a. This puts the question on record

b. Puts the response (or lack thereof) on record too. If the cache owner says "Oh don't worry, its on a road allowance and the railway tracks have long been abandoned", and later it turns out not to be the case, then the blame rests squarely with the cache owner.

 

If on the other hand I send a private e-mail to the cache owner, and they reply to me privately, and later JohnQ landowner comes by and says "Look, this cache was found 20 times, and no one reported that it was on my land, how the heck can we trust you guys" then we have a problem, as there is no record of me e-mailing the cache owner, and no record of him telling me it isn't on private property. Blame then rests with all 20 seekers who never reported the problem.

[+budd-rdc]

(now waiting for the "play your own way" crowd to jump me.)

Being a cache cop is also "playing your own way" so any crowd that jump you deserve a lot of .

 

I rarely use "SBAs" but I will bring awareness to issues that blatantly violate the guidelines in my local area. When I'm travelling, I'm more gun-shy since I'm ignorant of regional etiquette and practices. For the railroad bridge example, you could have said "I noticed NO TRESPASSING signs" without posting an "SBA" and let the next local visitor reinforce your observation - that usually works. As suggested above, contacting the owner, or even the reviewer privately usually works, too.

 

I don't see any malicious intent on your part, so hopefully, the issues get resolved on their own and you can forget that this ever happened.

[Clan Riffster]

(now waiting for the "play your own way" crowd to jump me.)

If a piece of PVC pushed into the ground upsets you so much that you can't sleep at night, send a discreet note to the reviewer letting them know of your concerns. Some of your concerns will be legitimate, others will not, as you've already seen. By letting the reviewer know what's up, as opposed to posting an SBA, you allow the Powers That Be to know there might be a problem, without casting yourself in the "cache cop" role.

[+GreyingJay]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks. I have had a very healthy respect for railway lines since, and so I would be very wary of caches placed too close to them.

 

As for the rest of it, if you really had a problem with a cache placement and didn't want to be the bad guy, you could always alert the local landowner, and let them be the one to request the SBA. I would only do this in extreme cases, though, if at all. I'd try to talk to the cache owners first and get their thoughts behind why the cache is set up the way it is. It's too bad you're getting the "none of your business" type emails -- the way I see it, it most definitely IS my business if he expects me to go out there and find it, subjecting my life to whatever risks may be associated with the placement (whether that be as extreme as the risk of getting hit by a train, or simply being subject to the wrath of local muggles, land owners, or even cops).

 

If it was a cache here in Ottawa, we have bi-annual gatherings where I would have a chance to meet the cache owner and talk to him or her in person.

 

As for the cache by the electrical box, that wasn't my cache was it?

[+Ambrosia]

I always try and be honest in my cache logs, in a polite way.

 

One cache that I went to recently I know is on private property, I mentioned that in my log. The other was a large buried cache....I mentioned how the dirt was backfilling into the whole that was dug to place the container so that I could not replace the cache properly.

 

[+fishingfools]

I recently came across a cache at the back of a cornfield, 400 feet from the road. I did not see any houses, but it was a cultivated field. Since the cache page made no note about being placed with permission, I choose to not enter the property to look for it. Might have been fine, but this in NC, so might have been some Bubba with a shotgun yellin' "Ya'll git off my land". My point is it didn’t feel right, and I chose to not seek it. No one forced you past the signs. If you didn't like the looks of it, why did you go for the cache?

[+sbell111]

... When they go out caching in the real world, they may not really want to be the cache police either, and being the local reviewer puts them in a potential 'conflict of interest' type position.

They can't possibly hope to visit even the smallest fraction of the caches that they review, so applying special considerations to the ones they do visit isn't really a good idea (IMHO). Now... If someone else brings the rule violation to their attention, that's a different story. That kind of reviewing can be applied to every cache, equally.

Just because a reviewer happend to visit a cache, doesn't mean that they approved of it.

I disagree with your premise. I expect that if a reviewer finds a cache that doesn't appear to meet the guidelines then they will look into it further.

[+VO2WW]

First and foremost I think we have a responsibility to ourselves to decline to seek a cache if we feel it is not in a location we feel comfortable in looking. If I don't think I should go where the cache is I won't go. I will post a DNF and give reasons for such a post, 'seemed like it was on private property' or 'cache was in an area the seemed unsafe to me' maybe even 'cache location seemed to voilate the generally accepted guidelines'. If I have any strong concerns I will also send a private email to the owner telling them. Mostly my concerns have been about private property and most often the cache owner will tell me it is or should be okay to search. Never has an owner said they had permission to place the cache there on a cache I questioned. I have done some finds where the owner said permission was granted and stated that on cache page. I have passed up some great locations for a cache because of private property even when I felt permission would be granted. I am okay with a lot of the 'gray areas' like guard rails on gravel roads or parking lots, micros on poles or sign posts.

[+budd-rdc]

... When they go out caching in the real world, they may not really want to be the cache police either, and being the local reviewer puts them in a potential 'conflict of interest' type position.

They can't possibly hope to visit even the smallest fraction of the caches that they review, so applying special considerations to the ones they do visit isn't really a good idea (IMHO). Now... If someone else brings the rule violation to their attention, that's a different story. That kind of reviewing can be applied to every cache, equally.

Just because a reviewer happend to visit a cache, doesn't mean that they approved of it.

I disagree with your premise. I expect that if a reviewer finds a cache that doesn't appear to meet the guidelines then they will look into it further.

And they do. I've seen quite a few "Hemlock Kiss of Death" after he visits caches that violate the guidelines.

[CoyoteRed]

I generally go by the "safe, legal, ethical" standard. If it meets those three things then I tend to let it go.

[+Glenn]

Several other caches were in city parks - below grade in buried containers. I doubt permission was given but who knows. I emailed 1 cache owner and was told "none of your business".

 

If I emailed a cache owner about the cache placement not being within' the guidelines and I was told that it is none of my business then they should expect an SBA log from me very soon thereafter.

 

If you really have cleared the cache placement through your reviewer or there are special circumstances in your area then there is no reason not to explain to a cache finder what is going on. We have a lot of people here on vacation in my area. When I get an email I assume that they may not be accustom to our style of geocaching and I do my best to help them out. As a suggestion, if you find you're having to repeatedly explain your cache placement then you should put the explanation on the caches page.

[+JimmyEv]

I've thought about posting SBAs on caches outside of my local area, not because of guideline violations, but because they had only DNFs for the past year and a half. I decided against it because that's for the locals to do, and I think the same applies to alleged guideline violations. Those are up to the local caching community and the local approver.

 

PVC pipe or similar capped with a lid that made it look like sprinkler controls. Completely fake as there are no lines or valves or wiring. In brand new condition. Again - in public parks. Found 4 of these in the past month or so - all in public parks. 8 inches to 15 inches deep with lid.

 

I've done a lot of these. Thankfully they were stuck in the ground and not buried. Otherwise I would've never found them. I don't know how you found those buried ones.

[Clan Riffster]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

[CoyoteRed]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

 

Forget about the noise. The ground trembles.

 

There is a place where a trail crosses active tracks. We just so happened to taking a break there when we saw a train coming. Of course, Sissy pumped her fist in the air, and being in the middle of nowhere, the conductor obliged. The horns are loud as a get-out, too. As the train passed, I was rather taken aback by the noise, wind, and the ground trembling.

 

You understand instantly why they don't want you playing around on tracks.

[+sbell111]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

Ipods should be banned.

[+StarBrand]

I generally go by the "safe, legal, ethical" standard. If it meets those three things then I tend to let it go.

Doesn't ethical mean following the guidelines you agreed to when submitting the cache?? (at least partly?)

Edited August 16, 2006 by StarBrand

[+Planet]

It takes 3 miles to stop a train going 25 MPH. So I hear.

[+conradv]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

 

Our place has tracks running between our house and the river. My brother and I've hunted all our lives on both sides of the tracks.

 

We learned early that trains can indeed "sneak up on you".

 

When the wind is right, a train can be 50 yards from you before you hear it...and it's usually coming at 60mph.

[janx]

Several other caches were in city parks - below grade in buried containers. I doubt permission was given but who knows. I emailed 1 cache owner and was told "none of your business".

 

If I emailed a cache owner about the cache placement not being within' the guidelines and I was told that it is none of my business then they should expect an SBA log from me very soon thereafter.

 

If you really have cleared the cache placement through your reviewer or there are special circumstances in your area then there is no reason not to explain to a cache finder what is going on. We have a lot of people here on vacation in my area. When I get an email I assume that they may not be accustom to our style of geocaching and I do my best to help them out. As a suggestion, if you find you're having to repeatedly explain your cache placement then you should put the explanation on the caches page.

 

If special permission was given for a cache, the average cacher won't know that UNLESS the cache page says so. Therefore it IS the cacher's business to know.

 

Reporting a cache should be relatively anonymous. Folks can get ornery when all their illegal caches get shutdown, and they find out it was you alerting the reviewer.

 

The suggestion to contact the land manager first is putting MORE work on the cacher who finds a violation. It can be a lot of work to track down who owns a piece of land, especially when it's not your local area.

 

If we had cache police reporting bad caches, there might be fewer illegal caches. The guidelines might want to require more statements about any exemptions that were made, or contact info for the land manager (you did talk to the land manager, right).

[+nikcap]

<Dr. Jekyll>

I appreciate a cacher being concerned about good cache ethics. The truth is, we all need to police ourselves. A couple things to keep in mind.

First, went caching outside of your usually area, especially in another state. You might night be aware of rules and regulation difference. A hide in a nearby state, might be illegal in your home state. Likewise, if you are not familiar with the local cachers, you might not know that cacher XYZ works for the parks dept or law enforcement or has worked closely with local land managers.

Second, if you find a cache that is in violation of the guidelines and/or use of public property, wouldn't you be a hypocrite to log the cache as a find?

Makes you just as guilty, right?

 

Now where's my asbestos suit?

Edited August 16, 2006 by ekitt10

[+nikcap]

<Mr. Hyde>

I appreciate a cacher being concerned about good cache ethics. The truth is, we all need to police ourselves. A couple things to keep in mind.

 

First, local cachers tend to protect other local cachers. I've seen issues where the locals will give great props to a cache, even though it's completely lame and in clear violations of the guidelines.

 

Second, as an outsider to an area, you probably have the best perspective to interpret the guidelines and enforce the rules by using the SBA tool or contacting the reviewer that posted the cache. You also have the less chance of criticism and/or stigma by the locals.

 

Now where's my flame thrower.

Edited August 16, 2006 by ekitt10

[Mushtang]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

Ipods should be banned.

Stupidity is a self curing disease. Hopefully someone like that removes themselves from the gene pool before they reproduce.

[+budd-rdc]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

 

Our place has tracks running between our house and the river. My brother and I've hunted all our lives on both sides of the tracks.

 

We learned early that trains can indeed "sneak up on you".

 

When the wind is right, a train can be 50 yards from you before you hear it...and it's usually coming at 60mph.

I know a girl who has a problem hearing oncoming trains for some reason. No explanation as to why, selective deafness?

 

All my senses are alert whenever I'm near a railroad track, including common sense. Even without putting your ear to the tracks (DUMB THING TO DO BY THE WAY), you can hear metallic noises of an oncoming train.

Edited August 16, 2006 by budd-rdc

[+conradv]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

 

Our place has tracks running between our house and the river. My brother and I've hunted all our lives on both sides of the tracks.

 

We learned early that trains can indeed "sneak up on you".

 

When the wind is right, a train can be 50 yards from you before you hear it...and it's usually coming at 60mph.

I know a girl who has a problem hearing oncoming trains for some reason. No explanation as to why, selective deafness?

 

All my senses are alert whenever I'm near a railroad track, including common sense. Even without putting your ear to the tracks (DUMB THING TO DO BY THE WAY), you can hear metallic noises of an oncoming train.

 

I know what I've experienced, and when the wind is blowing right up the river (not just a slight breeze, but actually blowing), you cannot hear the train coming. It's not just me either, others I have taken hunting there tell me the same thing.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I knew a guy who was hit and killed by a train as he was walking along the tracks.

We get those from time to time down here, and it always makes me wonder;

Did the train sneak up on the guy? I've seen train close up. They make a lot of noise.

 

Our place has tracks running between our house and the river. My brother and I've hunted all our lives on both sides of the tracks.

 

We learned early that trains can indeed "sneak up on you".

 

When the wind is right, a train can be 50 yards from you before you hear it...and it's usually coming at 60mph.

 

Ah, the good old days, when we were too dumb to believe we could die!

 

Ever noticed that railroad tracks and old Volkswagon Beetles have the same wheel-base?

 

Deflate the tires about half-way and that car will ride the tracks just fine.

 

We used to take tracks as a short-cut from where we lived to the technical school we attended, saved quite a lot of time.

 

We never got hit, obviously, but there were times when some in the car mighta needed new shorts.

 

Don't try this at home.

[PCFrog]

 

Ah, the good old days, when we were too dumb to believe we could die!

 

Ever noticed that railroad tracks and old Volkswagon Beetles have the same wheel-base?

 

Deflate the tires about half-way and that car will ride the tracks just fine.

 

We used to take tracks as a short-cut from where we lived to the technical school we attended, saved quite a lot of time.

 

We never got hit, obviously, but there were times when some in the car mighta needed new shorts.

 

Don't try this at home.

 

Of course you would not try it at home, you would try it on train tracks.

[+budd-rdc]

I know what I've experienced, and when the wind is blowing right up the river (not just a slight breeze, but actually blowing), you cannot hear the train coming. It's not just me either, others I have taken hunting there tell me the same thing.

And I believe you, and I bet it's not just that location either. (Hence the girl example) I think that's why the guideline against placing caches near railroad tracks is a good one.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I know what I've experienced, and when the wind is blowing right up the river (not just a slight breeze, but actually blowing), you cannot hear the train coming. It's not just me either, others I have taken hunting there tell me the same thing.

And I believe you, and I bet it's not just that location either. (Hence the girl example) I think that's why the guideline against placing caches near railroad tracks is a good one.

 

Actually, getting hit by a train has nothing to do with the guideline. A geocacher's arrest for placing one on RR ROW and the desire to avoid bad rap and reputation for the game led to it.

 

I can't think of ANY guideline or prohibition that has to do with geocacher safety!

 

Ed

[+Glenn]

Several other caches were in city parks - below grade in buried containers. I doubt permission was given but who knows. I emailed 1 cache owner and was told "none of your business".

 

If I emailed a cache owner about the cache placement not being within' the guidelines and I was told that it is none of my business then they should expect an SBA log from me very soon thereafter.

 

If you really have cleared the cache placement through your reviewer or there are special circumstances in your area then there is no reason not to explain to a cache finder what is going on. We have a lot of people here on vacation in my area. When I get an email I assume that they may not be accustom to our style of geocaching and I do my best to help them out. As a suggestion, if you find you're having to repeatedly explain your cache placement then you should put the explanation on the caches page.

 

If special permission was given for a cache, the average cacher won't know that UNLESS the cache page says so. Therefore it IS the cacher's business to know.

 

Particularly when there are NO TRESPASSING signs posted. I don't care where in the world you are no trespassing means stay out unless you have special permission to enter. Simply placing a cache there isn't clear enough permission for me. No one should assume that just because a cache is palced beyond a no trespassing sign that it is okay to enter the area. If I encounter a no trespassing sign and there is no mention of it on the cache page I will stop hunting the cache and email the cache owner.

 

Reporting a cache should be relatively anonymous. Folks can get ornery when all their illegal caches get shutdown, and they find out it was you alerting the reviewer.

 

Private email has always been an option and still is. SBAs are newer and allow the cache owner to make corrections or explanations before an archive happy reviewer get involved.

 

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde aka ekitt10 is correct. Cache hunters shouldn't jump the gun. They should feel that they can contact cache owners with any question that they have. Cache owners shouldn't get bent out of shape if a cache hunter has a question.

 

The suggestion to contact the land manager first is putting MORE work on the cacher who finds a violation. It can be a lot of work to track down who owns a piece of land, especially when it's not your local area.

 

What GreyingJay is suggesting is another reasonable option if for some reason you don't want to contact the owner or geocaching.com. Also permission to enter an area sometimes will only be granted on a case by case or person by person basis and only for a set amount of time. If this is the case then the cache owner needs to post contact info of where and how to get permission to enter the area or expect alot of emails asking who needs to be contacted.

 

If we had cache police reporting bad caches, there might be fewer illegal caches. The guidelines might want to require more statements about any exemptions that were made, or contact info for the land manager (you did talk to the land manager, right).

 

We don't need more rules we just people to talk to each other. Being told "none of your business" isn't a proper response. Anyone who gives that as their only response obviously doens't want their cahce found.

 

When you list a cache on this geocaching.com you are inviting people to find your cahce. It would be like inviting someone to your house and then locking the gate. When they call to find out why the gate is locked you tell them it is none of their business.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

A while back, I contacted a cache owner to ask whether explicit permission was granted by the business that owned the landscaping where the cache was hidden. The cache owner essentially told me they didn't need permission because hardly anyone gets permission. After several e-mail messages back and forth, they moved the cache. As far as I can tell it is still on private property (I have no idea whether permission was ever granted) but at least it is no longer in the landscaping.

 

When I raised the question about improper placement in these forums, I was told to move on and mind my own business. Seems this is a touchy subject in the community.

 

With regard to the original question, I believe the OP was justified to question the cache location by the railroad tracks (past the no trespassing sign). I would have fired off the dreaded SBA in that situation due to the potential negative implication this could have for caching if the media gets wind of it (or worse, the bombe squad). The cache owner should have listed something on the webpage to calm any concerns cachers may have about the placement or perhaps should choose a better location.

 

As far as the PVC pushed in the ground, I guess it would have to depend on the location. I found one like this that was placed with explicit permission and thought it was clever and appropriate. Technically I guess these types of caches (where PVC is the pointy device used to make a hole for the purpose of cache placement) are against the guidelines.

 

Cheers!

 

4Hounds

[+StarBrand]

Just to clarify - I don't think the PVC could possibly have been "pushed into the ground". It seems rather obvious that some object was used to create a hole and the the PVC tube was inserted into it and then capped in the same fashion as automatic sprinkler controls.

[+THarvey3]

How's this one. I took my 12 year old neice caching for the first time. She got stung by a yellow jacket when she stuck her finger in the "wrong" pipe. The micro was in the "other" pipe -- there were only two.

 

I've asked that the cache be moved. Appropriate or not?

[CoyoteRed]

I generally go by the "safe, legal, ethical" standard. If it meets those three things then I tend to let it go.

Doesn't ethical mean following the guidelines you agreed to when submitting the cache?? (at least partly?)

 

Yep, it sure does, but that is between the placer and the listing site. I tend to worry more about what's between the placer and the hunter or the community.

 

I would be much less worries about a cache 400' from another one, than say, one that lures a cacher onto posted land.

[+Torry]

I've had to hit the SBA button a few times. .. and should have hit it more often.

 

The issue I have is with certain players who consider it their "right" to disobey or disrespect private property laws or the gc.com guidelines.

 

Most of the guidelines are in place to help keep this game "under the radar" of the public eye and to maintain a positive reputation for the game.

 

Go ahead and hit the SBA button. There are too many great caches out there to let the tiny minority get us kicked of the playing field.

[Clan Riffster]

I took my 12 year old neice caching for the first time. She got stung by a yellow jacket when she stuck her finger in the "wrong" pipe. The micro was in the "other" pipe. I've asked that the cache be moved. Appropriate or not?

Ouch! I hope that doesn't spoil her feelings towards hunting Tupperware in the woods. I know I've been nailed countless times because I've stuck my hand in a place I didn't inspect properly. When I take my 10 year old caching, I try and look out for her, but since I'm not perfect, stingy, pokey things can still cause her problems.

 

Appropriate? Hard to say. I wasn't there. In the cases where I've made similar discoveries, I either got my hornet spray out of my truck and resolved the issue myself, (short hikes), or notified the community of the problem so the owner can resolve it and hopefully nobody else gets stung.

[Tahosa and Sons]

I've run into the same thing here in CO. You get jumped all over for trying to keep the hobby honest. So the approach I've taken is no log, no smiley and I just throw the dadgum thing in the nearest dumpster and move on down the road.

[+Torry]

How's this one. I took my 12 year old neice caching for the first time. She got stung by a yellow jacket when she stuck her finger in the "wrong" pipe. The micro was in the "other" pipe -- there were only two.

 

I've asked that the cache be moved. Appropriate or not?

 

You could ask but I scarcely think such a situation required an SBA hit. Now, had there been an animal making a nest out of the site, which happened to me, then maybe so to expedite the process. But for a simple, yellow jacket sting ... no... just part of the hunt.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Sorry, but this reassignment of blame, our wholesale abdication of personal responsibility, is going too far.

 

Insects live in small dark places. All 5 of my kids knew that at 12 years old.

 

Bee stings can happen anywhere. It is no one's fault.

 

If she gets stung on the playground will you call the school board, suggest the school be shut down?

[+GreyingJay]

How's this one. I took my 12 year old neice caching for the first time. She got stung by a yellow jacket when she stuck her finger in the "wrong" pipe. The micro was in the "other" pipe -- there were only two.

 

I've asked that the cache be moved. Appropriate or not?

 

I would not ask for the cache to be moved, personally, but I would make it clear in my logs that that is what happened, and let that be a warning for the next cachers.

 

If, on the other hand, the cache was in the middle of a giant wasp's nest, then I would suggest to the cache owner that he perhaps disable his cache until it can be taken care of. Or move it if he wants.