+egami Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 (edited) I have been looking at GPS devices for a week now and have done a fair amount of research on them, but I am torn between GPSr (which, if I understand is a GPS receiver) and a GPS/PDA (maybe making up my own term there) device. I really like the Garmin M* iQue series. What I need though is input from people that have maybe had exposure to both to give me pro/con. I am not an overly avid backpacker that is going to be heading into the jungles of Africa or anything. I am a techhead that works in IT and will mostly Geocache casually with my kids and maybe use the device in the car on trips (more to play with than anything because men don't need directions, right? ). So, really what I am looking for is more of the technical differences (advantages / disadvantages) between the two as they relate to Geocaching. I understand all the battery life differences, but maybe some insight as to map and data availability on one versus the other. It looks to me like GPS/PDA maybe holds more map data without buying a card. It looks like in terms of accuracy and such that the two are rather equitable in performance. Maybe it would be good to know what I don't get with a GPD/PDA that I would typically get with GPSr (compass feature maybe?). I am really leaning toward a Garmin M4 at this point....maybe the M3 just for the price in case I don't like the GPS/PDA. Any personal experience, suggestions or input is much appreciated. Also, regarding maps...I have no experience with the actual map data you can put on either device. Is that even a big deciding factor for me as I'll be a very casual GPS user? Thanks. Edited July 27, 2006 by egami Quote Link to comment
+TheBeast Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I've been having the same dilema! I hope this is good! Quote Link to comment
+PDOP's Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 The stand alone GPSr is built for the field. It's waterproof (some even float) and more rugged. Quote Link to comment
Hillbilly-Rockstar Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I would like to have the Ique, but the price is to far. You can become a premium member ($30 per year) and download the cache page to your PDA. Which is a REALLY nice feature. I would go with the for a PDA. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 The PDA/GPS devices are built for the office and auto. They aren't meant to withstand the rigors of outdoor use. You don't have to be trekking into the jungles of Africa to expose your unit to sudden thunderstorms, snow, accidental dunks in streams, getting dropped on rocks, etc... A dedicated handheld GPS is built to withstand this, PDA devices aren't. Should you slip off a log and wind up in a waist deep brook, a handheld GPS will survive it. An iQueue (and similar devices) will become a very expensive paperweight. Quote Link to comment
+Miragee Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 Because this can happen, I have an inexpensive Palm M500 that I carry in a metal case . . .which is now dinged and scratched because I have dropped it trying to juggle it, my GPSr, and my walking stick. My GPSr is a Vista C. I like its small size for hiking, but I also like the fact that it autoroutes me around town. It doesn't "talk" to me, but it gives me "beeps" to let me know I have to make a turn or take an exit. The City Navigator maps are the ones you need to get in order to take advantage of the auto-routing feature of your Garmin GPSr. Quote Link to comment
+CJOttawa Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I'm voting for seperate devices, even though I dislike "one more gizmo" with me in the field. Dedicated devices will always do the job better than integrated ones. I put my PDA in an Otter-box 2600 for protection - makes it just about as rugged as the GPSr, floats, waterproof etc. http://www.otterbox.com/products/pda_cases/2600/ Quote Link to comment
+hiikaash Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I have had no experience with both, but prefer the Magellan 210 Quote Link to comment
+TheBeast Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I put my PDA in an Otter-box 2600 for protection Those are VERY cool! I searched the website, but I didn't find any info about stores! I would really like to take my PDA in and veryify the fit before I bought one. Have you ever seen them in a store? Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The combo unit will likely cost as much as purchasing 2 separate units anyway. A dedicated GPS is far more rugged. I keep my Dell Axim in a protective sleeve and packed away in a padded pouch for most of the hunt. I only get it out to read a few details and then put it right back away. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Maybe I should of done a better job clarifying....I am not really interested as much in the physical differences in the devices as I am the technical differences each one offers in the field. I am well aware of the lack of waterproofing and all of the physical differences. I am looking for more "in the field" differences. I've pretty much had a regular PDA with me in every environment that I'll be geocaching in. So those differences wouldn't likely sway me back to a GPSr. If I can't get something in a GPS/PDA in terms of functionality that will assist me in the field (like much less accuracy, less mapping, less detail or such) then I'll likely get the combo. And from what I can see I don't know that I am sold on getting two seperate devices and having it be more cost effective then buying them seperately. For example, an M3 gives me the PDA power I need (because I am not a power PDA user these days) and it would offer the GPS functionality for $250. It seems to me that is pretty comperable to nice color display GPSr and on top of it the GPS/PDA comes with full unlocked map CD whereas I with the GPSr I don't know I can get that....and, if I can, it seems the GPS/PDA still has a leg up in terms of how much map data and ansillery info for each cache that it can store locally. This is from my perspective...I have field tested the two scenarios. I guess mainly I am not seeing the advantage to a straight GPSr except for the durability/weatherproofing which, to me, isn't a major selling point for my personal need. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Oops, I think my message truncated the most important part! Thanks a ton...this is all immensely helpful advice. Quote Link to comment
+budd-rdc Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Not sure if my perspective will help, but I use BOTH a stand-alone GPSr (Garmin eTrex Summit) and a GPS/PDA combination (Handspring Visor + Magellan GPS Companion), although these are 5 year old technologies. I'll agree with others that my GPS/PDA setup gave me grief when I used it in the rain, but you've said that's not an issue. I have comments on the ergonomics. GPS/PDA still requires two hands to operate the unit, especially when you have to change menus, software applications, etc. I can operate my eTrex with one hand, and can change menus and windows pretty quickly. This of course depends on which GPSr you buy, since some GPSr's are easier to use with two hands also (Garmin GPSmap series, for example). Unless GPS/PDA allows you to view cache description, and current coordinates/distance/bearing to caches simultaneously, it's much easier to have a stand-alone GPSr to navigate on one hand, while you read the descriptions/hints in the PDA on the other hand. As for reception and accuracy, you'll have to judge each model on its own merits, and NOT categorize them by GPSr or GPS/PDA. My Magellan GPS Companion often outperforms my eTrex in tree cover, but the eTrex can be more accurate when it has lock. Some of the GPS/PDA use SiRF-Star III chips, but they might have crummy firmware/software or lousy antenna. You'll have to shop around and do some research on your own. Since stand-alone GPSr's are more popular with Geocaching, you'll get more reliable opinions on how good they are here in the forums. Quote Link to comment
+Trash4Cache Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 All, Hope this finds you well I have been using the Magellan 200 and 201 series with very good results. I use the map overlay to get within 1/8th of a mile then use the magnetic compass and distance to loc function for the last bit. It has been a real trooper and has brought me right on top of small micros. My one mistake in the M200 was that being completely waterproof, you have to enter all your Loc's by hand !! Talk about Nintendo cramps. The M210 has the PC interface. Other than that bit of info, I really can't do a brand by brand comparision My 2 cents Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Maybe I should of done a better job clarifying....I am not really interested as much in the physical differences in the devices as I am the technical differences each one offers in the field. For one, most handheld units are designed to easily fit in the hand and provide easy one handed use. The PDA devices are a bit unwieldy to use as a handheld. Battery life is very poor with the PDA units in GPS mode and most of them do not offer the option of replaceable AAs. If your battery runs out while geocaching, you're SOL until you can make it back to a charger. THis could be a major annoyance if you find yourself a coulple of miles from your car. With the handheld units you can just pop in a fresh pair of AAs. Some handhelds have electronic compasses which are a nice feature to have, but not a necessity. I'm not sure if the PDA/GPS units have a bearing/course (AKA compass) screen. This is a key requirement for geocaching. I would check and if they do not have it, then that's a deal breaker in my eyes. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Ok, well it seems like I'm still getting feedback prodominantly related to the physical differences between the two versus the actual field functionality and features. Thanks for the help...I'll maybe look into some local geocaching groups and find more people with firsthand GPS/PDA experience. I did get useful input on the GPSr side...wish a few more GPS/PDA users could input, but maybe they just don't exist. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Ok, well it seems like I'm still getting feedback prodominantly related to the physical differences between the two versus the actual field functionality and features. Thanks for the help...I'll maybe look into some local geocaching groups and find more people with firsthand GPS/PDA experience. I did get useful input on the GPSr side...wish a few more GPS/PDA users could input, but maybe they just don't exist. Good luck. The overwhemling majority of geocachers use dedicated handhelds which is why there is a paucity of info here on the PDA/GPS units. That alone should tell you something though. I doubt you will venture into a local forum where by a statistical quirk you're going to find a bunch of PDA/GPS users. Due to the numbers of users on this site this is where you will find the wiidest cross section of the geocaching community available. Not sure what more you can be looking for. Physical differenceslike waterproofness and ergonomics ARE features. The available screens ARE field functionality. I'll slide this over to the GPS Units and Software forum where many techies lurk and you may get the info you want. Edited July 28, 2006 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
Tymbee Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 ... actual field functionality and features. I've used a Garmin iQue 3600 for years-- mostly car but some hiking. By far the biggest complaint I have with respect to function is it's inability to connect directly to my PC for transferring tracks & routes-- like virtually every other GPS unit made can do easily. Not being able to lay out a route or set waypoints in a variety of programs I use then simply unload to the iQue directly is very frustrating. Like many other iQuers I've developed a convoluted system or work-arounds utilizing the Garmin waypoint transfer & Palm Desktop (yuck!) and other utilities, but it's a pain. I'm surprised I don't see more complaints about this from iQue users in general. Perhaps I'm in the minority. (?) Q. Can I plan routes on the PC and transfer them to the iQue like I can with other Garmin routing GPS devices? A. The iQue looks at data in a different fashion than MapSource or other Garmin gps units. MapSource and other Garmin units identify coordinate information within a route to create the turn-by-turn directions. The iQue cannot convert this data into a Palm language that it can recognize. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 (edited) Good luck. The overwhemling majority of geocachers use dedicated handhelds which is why there is a paucity of info here on the PDA/GPS units. That alone should tell you something though. It tells me that's what most people use....it doesn't explain why. I think largely it's because that's all you needed and most people, in general, are PDA users to begin with, so I think that explains a lot of it. And I can see the huge attraction for the durability and physical features...so, that in itself explains the vast popularity. Personally, being able to develop software on a PDA, I see a distinct advantage for myself, but I want to eliminate that from the decision making process and focus in on features (non-physical features and attributes like compass, waypoints, adding routes and all these software related items) used in the field that are most helpful. I doubt you will venture into a local forum where by a statistical quirk you're going to find a bunch of PDA/GPS users. Due to the numbers of users on this site this is where you will find the wiidest cross section of the geocaching community available. I am not talking about discovering a local statistical anomoly. I am talking about going to some of the local/regional in-person meetings and getting some firsthand feedback. Surely I'll fine a user or two with firsthand experience there. Not sure what more you can be looking for. Physical differenceslike waterproofness and ergonomics ARE features. The available screens ARE field functionality. I know they are features. They are unquestionably features that I see value in. However, I am talking more on the software, intangible side. How maps work from one device versus another....those types of aspects. The physical features are obvious to me without even really seeing them tangibly. I'll slide this over to the GPS Units and Software forum where many techies lurk and you may get the info you want. Thanks... Edited July 28, 2006 by egami Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 I've used a Garmin iQue 3600 for years-- mostly car but some hiking. By far the biggest complaint I have with respect to function is it's inability to connect directly to my PC for transferring tracks & routes-- like virtually every other GPS unit made can do easily. Then how do you load the data? Manually? Not being able to lay out a route or set waypoints in a variety of programs I use then simply unload to the iQue directly is very frustrating. Like many other iQuers I've developed a convoluted system or work-arounds utilizing the Garmin waypoint transfer & Palm Desktop (yuck!) and other utilities, but it's a pain. Ok, so this is great feedback here....when you say that do you mean lay a route or set waypoints that like show up on the mapping software? Remember, I have yet to even touch a GPS, but I get the general concept. I'm surprised I don't see more complaints about this from iQue users in general. Perhaps I'm in the minority. (?) Man, if you know any other iQue users with complaints or otherwise I'd love their feedback too. Thanks! Quote Link to comment
Tymbee Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I've used a Garmin iQue 3600 for years-- mostly car but some hiking. By far the biggest complaint I have with respect to function is it's inability to connect directly to my PC for transferring tracks & routes-- like virtually every other GPS unit made can do easily. Then how do you load the data? Manually? You interact with the 3600 using their Palm Desktop application. Track Conduit is an add-on program you can use to download tracks from that application. You can also-- with another add-on-- import waypoints from the iQue to the Palm Desktop Address area. I use the Palm app Beyond Contacts to sync with all my Outlook contacts, and use Palm Desktop only for waypoint info. Not being able to lay out a route or set waypoints in a variety of programs I use then simply unload to the iQue directly is very frustrating. Like many other iQuers I've developed a convoluted system or work-arounds utilizing the Garmin waypoint transfer & Palm Desktop (yuck!) and other utilities, but it's a pain. Ok, so this is great feedback here....when you say that do you mean lay a route or set waypoints that like show up on the mapping software? Remember, I have yet to even touch a GPS, but I get the general concept. With almost all GPS units you can just plug it into a USB port and whatever application you're using (Delorme, GPSUtil, TopoFusion, TerraClient etc. etc. "sees" it. Create a waypoint or a route and click to upload it. The communication between the iQue and your PC is only available via the Palm Desktop app. and even then, with respect to routes, it's one-way. You can't create and upload a route (assuming you use a SD card you can do a bit more such as create & save map sets using a card reader-- same with most all systems that use a separate card). I'm surprised I don't see more complaints about this from iQue users in general. Perhaps I'm in the minority. (?) Man, if you know any other iQue users with complaints or otherwise I'd love their feedback too. Thanks! Understand that I really enjoy my iQue 3600 and given the great support I've received from Garmin over the years would heartily recommend it to anyone looking for a PDA class system (although perhaps a newer PDA model for some added features). I also speak to a number of iQuers who have no problem at all with not being able to upload routes. It does a pretty good job on it's own of coming up with routes and it's easy enough-- if you don't mind working on a small screen-- to modify the route it comes up with to suit you. But in my case I often need to use a number of programs to lay out a route (targets for aerial photography runs e.g.) and I really need to be able to work on a large screen or using a satellite image, then simply click to transfer to the GPS. I can now do this just fine w/ my 60 csx. But I'll keep my iQue as my main auto nav and occasional off-road nav system for the foreseeable future. I really like the thing! BTW, good info from some of the most knowledgeable iQue users out there can be found at: http://forum.brighthand.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53 Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Thanks, that's extremely helpful. Although, I notice you are using the Palm OS and the models I am looking at is the MS OS, do have any idea if the issues are at all OS-related? Quote Link to comment
Tymbee Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Thanks, that's extremely helpful. Although, I notice you are using the Palm OS and the models I am looking at is the MS OS, do have any idea if the issues are at all OS-related? AFAIK, it's a "feature" that all Garmin PDA systems share (no way to upload routes or communicate directly). I also believe they've stopped producing the 3600 so IMO you're on the right track looking at the M5 (pun intended). Quote Link to comment
+TheBeast Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 I am looking at is the MS OS I saw a thread around here with a post from a geocacher that uses the Mio A701 and says he has for a while and loves it. It's a Microsoft Mobile Smartphone with GPS. If you can find that post then maybe you can get a hold of him directly for more info. Quote Link to comment
kerecsen Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 (edited) I am well aware of the lack of waterproofing and all of the physical differences. I am looking for more "in the field" differences. Here are my 2 cents. I have both a PDA+GPS combo (Qtek S110 phone + holux 236 BT GPS) and a GPSr (60c, Venture Cx). I use the PDA most of the time, and only reach for the GPSr under extreme circumstances (boating, very rough environment, lack of charging opportunities). The two primary drawbacks of the PDA approach (beside fragility) are battery life and a screen that isn't all that visible in bright sunlight. The battery life is about 10 hours when I hike with my scanned hiking maps (recording track log, occasionally turning on backlight to look at the screen). However, the car navigation software discharges the battery like there is no tomorrow (2-3 hours). Of course if there is a car, there is a car charger In comparison, the Venture Cx lasts well beyond 24 hours regardless of how you use it, and when it drains, you can plop in another couple of widely available, inexpensive AA or rechargeable AA batteries and do another day and a half. The PDA's screen visibility is quite poor compared especially to Garmin GPSes. Garmins get better with more sunlight, the PDA gets worse. However, I never had a case when I couldn't see what I needed to see. It just involved a bit more maneuvering. As for the advantages of the PDA... You have access to a wide variety of software. You can scan you local, detailed, up-to-date hiking maps, or download 24k topo segments with usatopomaps for any part of the US and use them in your PDA. You can also choose from a bunch of auto-routing car navigation tools, some of which are better than even the best Garmins in speed, eye-candy and voice guidance. Also, if you are unhappy with the software you have, you can buy another one without having to replace the hardware. Or you can even run two different ones at the same time and use the best features of both. If you travel abroad, you can get maps for even the most bizarre locales, or at least can scan a local paper map. The touch screen can come very handy when navigating maps. Even without a subscription, you can download the complete web pages for the caches and browse them on site. Since the GPS is a separate box, you can put it in your backpack where it gets good reception, and keep the PDA on your belt where it is easy to reach (but would get no or poor reception if it was a dedicated unit). If a new generation of GPS receivers come out, you can replace just the GPS unit and keep going with improved guidance. You can even add new features like traffic reports. I'm sure there are others, but these came to mind at the moment... About the M*: I wouldn't get a dedicated PDA+GPS combo unit, because the PDA hardware is usually quite weak (about two generations behind real PDAs) and the whole package is way too expensive. As I mentioned earlier, having a BT module is better for field use anyway. The only significant advantage of the combo solution is that you don't need two chargers. My solution to that problem was to get a phone and a GPS that both use mini-USB for charging (so I don't need a charger at all if I'm around computers). (The M3 doesn't have the SiRF chip, so I guess the M4 is the only real alternative) The only combo unit I would consider is the Mio 701 anyway, because I hate those big clunky PDAs. Edited July 29, 2006 by kerecsen Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 29, 2006 Author Share Posted July 29, 2006 Wow, great replies all...I am not sure if it is making the decision any easier, but it's certainly the info. I am looking for. One questions for kerecsen if you re-visit...can you add anything in regards to the uploading, or lack thereof, of routes/waypoints? If it's too cumbersome of a process I might elect to just stick to standard GPSr and PDA seperately. Thanks again, all. Quote Link to comment
+TheBeast Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 can you add anything in regards to the uploading, or lack thereof, of routes/waypoints? That would be completely dependant on the unit and its software. It's feasable that you could just upload a kml file and point the app at it or, on the same device, it could require you to enter each point by hand! Just look at the software that comes with the unit and, BEFORE you buy, have a look at what other software is available that will run on that unit! Quote Link to comment
kerecsen Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 (edited) One questions for kerecsen if you re-visit...can you add anything in regards to the uploading, or lack thereof, of routes/waypoints? If it's too cumbersome of a process I might elect to just stick to standard GPSr and PDA seperately. It depends entirely on the software you use. But there are some very handy apps for both GPSrs and for PDAs. I would say that PDAs are generally simpler, as you can just copy a file to the device (a Pocket PC is essentially a Windows PC with a smaller screen and a slower CPU). [Edit: I was reading and answering in a FIFO, so I ended up duplicating TheBeast's comments... Sorry about that] Edited July 30, 2006 by kerecsen Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted July 30, 2006 Author Share Posted July 30, 2006 Hm, ok...I'll have to see if I can check out the software firsthand. Thanks! Quote Link to comment
+yyzdnl Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 (edited) I have an Asus Mypal A632. Bought it for car nav and just started Geocaching. It works great for both, but then I don't plan on geocaching in storms while mountain climbing. I was looking for an all in one car nav system and am real glad I went with the PDA so I can load all kinds of software, hence the reason I am geocaching. I think this works both ways. I just took a weekend in Chicago and the voice nav was wonderful. Finding the right exit/turn in Chicago traffic can be just as tough as finding a cache. I use Pathaway for Geocaching. http://pathaway.com. It's great I can load Google Earth Satellite Pictures to make moving maps and overlay them with Geocache waypoints. You just set the map with a couple of GE waypoints and then in the field you can tweak the map with a nudge feature. Another good program is Vito Navigator II it can process the .LOC files on this site. I can even import Geocache lists into my car nav software Destinator PN5 and have it tell me how to find the nearest parking to a cache. If you aren’t planning long backpack trips this is one versatile option with a 1300mH battery it shouldn’t pass out on you, and at $432 it is cheaper than many of the new Garmins. http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA22708 Edited July 31, 2006 by yyzdnl Quote Link to comment
Tymbee Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA22708 Nice-- more competition can help keep the overall prices down. But I have to shake my head and wonder who signs off on the description for things like this: QUOTE: Removable Li-ion battery expands battery power when outdoors. Battery: 1300 mAh, removable/ rechargeable Li-ion battery Ok, that's cool-- and could give it an edge over iQues but... QUOTE: High-quality speaker delivers heart-tunmpin' sound ?!? | ?!? Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I've just started using my iQue for geocaching on its own. Prior to this last trip, we used it in conjunction with a Magellan Meridian Gold for paperless caching. We would put the caches into the PDA as pocket queries with Swiss Army Knife (or something like that) on the PC and Cachemate on the PDA. If we wanted to go caching, I'd just pull up the PDA, turn on the GPS, and look for some caches near the current location. You can read the description, and recent logs, and once we'd navigate to them, we'd put the coordinates into the Magellan. Why? Well, the shortcoming of the iQue is that you can only zoom to 120ft, which is pretty useless for caching. It's going to get you to the general vicinity, but close refinement, it's not going to do. But on the last trip, the Magellan didn't want to work (separate thread on that) so we just used the iQue and did this: 1) On the map screen, once you're as close as you as going to get, click on the cache waypoint 2) Click the "i" with a circle around it. You'll see the distance to the cache, which updates as you move. Use that to narrow in on it With that process, it worked well (found 10 out of 10 caches on the trip) and we're expecting to phase out the Magellan over the next few trips. Haven't run into battery or weather issues, although we keep a supply of ziplocks handy for rainstorms :-) We also were unable to find caches one day of the trip because we ventured outside of the area that my pocket queries covered, but that's hardly the PDA's fault. Cachemate makes paperless caching really easy, highly recommended. My only major remaining complaint is that this is a Mac OS X house, and I don't like borrowing a PC laptop to upload my pocket queries :-) Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I've just started using my iQue for geocaching on its own. Why? Well, the shortcoming of the iQue is that you can only zoom to 120ft, which is pretty useless for caching. I am also trying to compare PDA with dedicated separate GPSr. On a PDA, forgetting maps, can you directly enter waypoints such as: N 51° 32.575 E 000° 34.896 or British Grid: TQ 79113 85832 as in a dedicated receiver? Is this done in the PDA or software that would be additionaly needed? Does car GPS software such as TomTom or Co-Pilot include this or is separate walking navigating software required? Is the arrow and distance countdown also included? To sum up, what additional software is required of a PDA (Mio A701 for example), to turn it into a fully functioning GPSr for hillwalking or caching? I currently have a borrowed old Garmin 12 GPSr which has no mapping, but is fine for both caching (using degrees) and hillwalking (using British Ordanance Survey map references). Will I have the same software functionallity with a PDA (which I could then additionally download Memory Map into)? Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 In trying to gather how both types of unit compare, can you enter Grid and Datums directly into a GPS-integrated PDA or is this done in additional GPS software? What software would you enter this into? Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I am also trying to compare PDA with dedicated separate GPSr. On a PDA, forgetting maps, can you directly enter waypoints such as: N 51° 32.575 E 000° 34.896 or British Grid: TQ 79113 85832 as in a dedicated receiver? On the iQue, there is no obvious way to enter waypoints by their coordinates, no. On the Nuvi (which is more of an auto GPS, but runs on batteries, so you can use it as a handhold in a pinch) you can -- just "Route To", "Coordinates" (the last option) and enter the coordinates. It will get you as close as you can get via roads (not necessarily the smartest route, though) and then you walk in. That kind of misses the whole point of using a PDA, though -- paperless caching, wherein everything that you need (description, coordinates, past logs, hints, etc) is contained on the PDA/GPS. If I wasn't interested in that functionality, I wouldn't use a PDA for the cost, battery life and fragility factors noted elsewhere. Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 That kind of misses the whole point of using a PDA, though -- paperless caching, wherein everything that you need (description, coordinates, past logs, hints, etc) is contained on the PDA/GPS. Happy to use a sheet of paper for that! I really want to know if a pda can replace gpsr, but also have mapping for walking, plus word and excel for a few other things that would be good to carry, also speed cameras if went for Copilot and POI. And also a phone, if I go for the MIO701. Then again, a separate phone, gpsr, and pda, may be the best way to go! Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 Happy to use a sheet of paper for that! I really want to know if a pda can replace gpsr In that case, I wouldn't even consider using the PDA. One slip into a pond and it's done, and you're not really getting much use of it. Can't imagine needing to do spreadsheets whilst looking for a cache! Stick with a GPSr and leave the PDA in the car. Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Happy to use a sheet of paper for that! I really want to know if a pda can replace gpsr In that case, I wouldn't even consider using the PDA. One slip into a pond and it's done, and you're not really getting much use of it. Can't imagine needing to do spreadsheets whilst looking for a cache! Stick with a GPSr and leave the PDA in the car. Thanks for comments. The aim I was trying to achieve, would be not buying an expensive gpsr (Garmin 60sx that could hold limited maps for hill walking) when for same £300 I could get a PDA that could be used well away from ponds! and geocaching. It could hold better 1:25000 ordance survey maps, and it could also be used for car satnav (not main priority but a nice bonus, especially if speed cams can be added on like with co-pilot or tom. What I need is 1) Geocaching provision (if ownly need I would def buy £130 unit without mapping) 2) GPS and mapping for hillwalking (60sx has this but map not to pda ability. Not sure how good pda firmware or software wise for caching) 3) Car satnav and word/excel an added attraction. Now if, gps abilty (waypoints, datums for GB Ordance Survey maps etc) of PDA not as comprehensive as GPSr, then I will have to buy separate (original idea). Just that the all-in-one aspect of say MioA701, replacing phone as well seems atractive, as it would always be with me and so would be used more. I accept GPSr is not as rugged and AA NIMH batteries are a big attraction, but it cant double up as a phone! Better solution may be a separate PDA/Phone without GPS (again disadvantage in weight of phone but better choice of PDA) and dedicated GPSr. However, Im trying to get the benefit of PDA owners experience who do (or dont) use it for caching to see exactly what it can do. Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "hillwalking" is (I assume it's hiking,) but my experience is that the basemaps in a GPSr are sufficiently detailed for hiking and geocaching, presuming that you don't need topographic maps. Given that a decent GPSr with said maps is about $100 (about 53 quid) and an iQue is $400 (212£) (neither of which includes topo maps) I can't see the PDA being a good purchase for equivalent use. You can get the cheap GPSr and a cheap PDA without GPS to leave in the car for your spreadsheets and such for quite a bit less than the iQue solution. Again, it comes down to what you want, but if paperless caching isn't your aim, there's no need to spend all that extra money for a combined unit. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 Why? Well, the shortcoming of the iQue is that you can only zoom to 120ft, which is pretty useless for caching. It's going to get you to the general vicinity, but close refinement, it's not going to do. Hm, my understanding from talking to a clerk was that this is not an issue with the iQue and that you can get the same granularity on it as a GPSr... What iQue do you own? What map were you using? Reason I ask is because I am seriously considering the iQue. Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Why? Well, the shortcoming of the iQue is that you can only zoom to 120ft, which is pretty useless for caching. It's going to get you to the general vicinity, but close refinement, it's not going to do. Hm, my understanding from talking to a clerk was that this is not an issue with the iQue and that you can get the same granularity on it as a GPSr... What iQue do you own? What map were you using? Reason I ask is because I am seriously considering the iQue. It's an iQue 3600, bought about three months ago, with the maps that it comes with (installed off of a DVD) although the maps should be irrelevant, as it's the mapping software that's limiting (there's a pop-up menu of "zoom factors" and it only goes to 120ft) the zoom. Unless I'm missing something, it's a hard limit (with no real reason, so far as I can tell... aside from screwing up someone who didn't know what they were doing, I don't see a purpose for the limit.) Quote Link to comment
Mayax Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I run a HP hx2795 PDA with a GlobalSat BT-338 receiver. The receiver comes with a belt holster. Turn it on and stick it in the holster or bury it in your pocket (it's that good.) It uses a Sirf III chipset and it's been pretty dadgum accurate. But, once you have a few keywords to look for in a receiver, accuracy becomes pretty standard across the board and then it's the software interpretation making up the rest. Both, the PDA and reciever will need to have bluetooth to communicate. Pretty standard on external receivers, not on PDA's. I wouldn't recommend getting a PDA/receiver combo for battery reasons. My global sat is mostly battery and I've run it over 8 hours without a problem before. I don't even worry about it. A PDA/GPS combo will burn more of the PDA's juice though. And, yes, PDA's are available with replaceable batteries, mine is and involves nothing more than a slide cover like a channel changer. It's not AA batteries but you can get them at Circuit City, Fry's, etc... or whatever your equivalent is. I typically get 8 hours on half screen brightness and 4 on full brightness. The things I would caution on Garmin PDA's though: They're horribly over-priced for what you get on the PDA specs. Also, be careful in that I believe only one model carries a SirF III GPS chip in it. Believe me, you want a SirF III chipset no matter what your decision is GPSr or PDA. Lastly, they're notoriously proprietary. They want their software (which is dadgum good) only interpreting Garmin protocol from, you guessed it, Garmin manufactured receivers. You can get around it now, but their PDA software will soon be requiring it. The things I like about my PDA setup: You can pretty much run whatever software you want to. I can run TomTom, GPS Tuner, Garmin's (if I use their GPS receiver which doesn't have a SirF III chip yet -- dealbreaker, IMHO;) or I can use Magellan's, etc... You can also run whatever the hell people write for GPS functionality on PDA web-sites. There's lots of GPS utilities out there. You play any golf? Folks have written software for laying out distances by hole. In a nutshell, you just have far far more software options available to you if you want to do other stuff. I currently use National Geographic's Topo package and will probably try out Delorme's next. Want to try out Delorme's? Good luck doing that on a Garmin dedicated GPSr or vice-versa. On the biggies in major map software... There are really only two main players: TeleAtlas and Navteq. All the mainline map distributors like Garmin, Magellan, TomTom, etc... all get their base map data from one of the two companies above. Garmin and Magellan use Navteq while TomTom and National Geographic use TeleAtlas. If you live in Europe, you're probably better off using TeleAtlas and if you live in North America you're better off using Navteq based companies. On hardware: Look for SirF III and WAAS enabled in your GPS decision, no matter what. If you're going PDA, get one with an expandable SD slot in it. Dedicated GPSr's are starting to carry more onboard memory than PDA's but a 2 gig SD card for $50 makes that a non-issue. The biggest drawback on PDA's I guess I could say is price by the time you've put it all together. If you were only looking for paperless geocaching, you just buy ten old Palm PDA's for $50 a pop off ebay and basically treat them like throw-aways. Or, go my route and get top-of-the-line kit while paying through the nose putting: PDA, receiver, software, extra memory card, and an impact case all together. If price is no object and you don't mind a little bulk, you might also want to look at a Jasjar. Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 (edited) I run a HP hx2795 PDA with a GlobalSat BT-338 receiver. You can pretty much run whatever software you want to. I can run TomTom, GPS Tuner, Garmin's (if I use their GPS receiver which doesn't have a SirF III chip yet -- dealbreaker, IMHO;) If price is no object and you don't mind a little bulk, you might also want to look at a Jasjar. Thanks Mayax for a comprehensive report on your PDA use. I asked earlier in this thread - can you enter Grid and Datums directly into a GPS-integrated PDA/Receiver or is this done in additional GPS software? By what you said, its in the dedicated GPS software and I had a look at GPS Tuner's manual. It seems to have a fixed Data format (degrees and minutes) and 84 Datum. Is there a way of changing or converting these so that you can enter map cordinates? (In GB it needs to be British Grid and Ordance Survey datum) Is a GeoCaching reference : N 51° 32.575 manually inputable or has this to be converted because it looks to take in a different format? (N 47' 35' 51.462) My borrowed Garmin12 allows entry in any format, then automatically converts when you change Grid and Datum in Setup. Or is there software that can do this? and it only goes to 120ft - I take it the poster is only referring to mapping! That co-ordinates via a PDA or Receiver are accurate like a GPSr to about 5-10 yards? Lastly, is this your sole equipment for GeoC or do you additionally take a GPSr as has beeen recommended in earlier posts? Edited August 16, 2006 by andrewh13 Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 Unless I'm missing something, it's a hard limit (with no real reason, so far as I can tell... aside from screwing up someone who didn't know what they were doing, I don't see a purpose for the limit.) I doubt it...I was probably getting spoonfed what I wanted to hear from a sales clerk that doesn't own a GPS of any kind. Quote Link to comment
+egami Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 Mayax - Excellent reply. Immensely helpful. At this point I've decided to probably just go with a standard GPSr because of what you've stated regarding on board memory. For no more than I'll use it for that will be plenty I am sure. I am also looking at WAAS capable and SirF III as well. Thanks for the replies, all. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 and it only goes to 120ft - I take it the poster is only referring to mapping! That co-ordinates via a PDA or Receiver are accurate like a GPSr to about 5-10 yards? Lastly, is this your sole equipment for GeoC or do you additionally take a GPSr as has beeen recommended in earlier posts? Yes, that refers to the mapping view. You can (and I do) use the nav mode to see direction and distance to the cache, right down to 0 feet, but I prefer the graphic display of the map. As of a week or so ago, the iQue is all that I take caching. It has all of the descriptions, hints and past logs that I would normally have printed out, and I can use the auto-routing to get my car close to the cache, and then I use the map / nav mode to walk to the spot. Quote Link to comment
+Andrew & Barbara Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 As of a week or so ago, the iQue is all that I take caching. It has all of the descriptions, hints and past logs that I would normally have printed out, and I can use the auto-routing to get my car close to the cache, and then I use the map / nav mode to walk to the spot. Is that map mode of the GPS/PDA or additional software that allows it to act like a GPSr? Im still trying to visualise what is needed with a PDA/GPS/Receiver to allow the GeoC abilty I have of my (loaned) GPSr? Where for instance would you change a datum? Quote Link to comment
+naviguesser74 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I use a Palm Treo 650 with TomTom and GeoNiche. I also use GPS Pilot's Tracker. Tracker allows me to scan in and calibrate maps. TomTom Navigator, with geocache sites added as POIs is really neat. GeoNiche is really flexible. It does all the typical GPSr stuff and manages all the cache info. True, the PDA is not as rugged, but that can be addressed a number of different ways. One device, with so much flexibility, is nice. Add to that, internet accessibilty, a phone, contacts, calendar, coordinate converstion program, camera, currency conversion, myriad Palm programs, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment
+naviguesser74 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 OH, and I forgot to add, a beautiful 320 x 320 color screen not matched by any of the GPSr's. Quote Link to comment
+adjensen Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 As of a week or so ago, the iQue is all that I take caching. It has all of the descriptions, hints and past logs that I would normally have printed out, and I can use the auto-routing to get my car close to the cache, and then I use the map / nav mode to walk to the spot. Is that map mode of the GPS/PDA or additional software that allows it to act like a GPSr? Im still trying to visualise what is needed with a PDA/GPS/Receiver to allow the GeoC abilty I have of my (loaned) GPSr? Where for instance would you change a datum? The software is what comes with the iQue. It's standard, and you install the maps when you first setup the unit. Depending on memory (it takes SD memory expansion cards, I have a 2gig,) you can put lots of maps on there. You can change the datum in the Preferences>>Location screen. It looks to have over 100 different options in there. Quote Link to comment
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