Video- Legend Cx Accuracy Problem-- Does This Happen To You?

July 2, 2006

Hey, folks.

I'm posting this as a new thread to try and get some new eyes on it, to see if others are having this problem. There has been another thread going for a while which details where a number of us cachers have discussed that our Cx units (Legends and Vistas) consistently go off-course by 30-300 feet when getting close to geocaches (which, as you all know, can be HUGE and extremely frustrating...) while our older GPSr units (like my black and white eTrex Legend) consistently get us right to the very same caches. I have been emailing with Garmin about the issue, but the tech (who is being quite professional and responsive...) wasn't able to replicate the problem in his test. So I told him I would attempt to capture the problem on video...

Tammer & I went to two geocaches today, and fortunately (well, unfortunately in the grand scheme of things...) they BOTH presented the error. I am only posting the video for one of them, where the error is much more evident (the Cx trying to put me in a lake as opposed to the middle of an empty parking lot)...

I am sure you will agree (tongue in cheek) that these clips represent incredible groundbreaking geocache broadcast journalism...please excuse the quality of the clips (taken with my digital camera, not a camcorder, then converted to email size), and all my rambling as I attempt to carry two GPSrs, a camera, narrate, and not trip over my own clumsy self... I think Tammer & the dogs were having a good laugh watching me stumble around...

This first clip...is five minutes long, 10MB in size. Shows several approaches, each ending with my old black & white Legend getting me right to the cache, and my Cx attempting to take me 60 feet from it-- and into a lake!!!

This second clip is just a shortened version of the first, showing only the last approach to the cache. Its a minute long and about 5MB in size. If you watched the first clip, you will have already seen this one at its end...

If you are having the same issue consistently (because it can happen to all GPSrs on occasion...) please post a note to this thread. I'll post updates about working with Garmin as well.

Thanks-- sorry for the long post!

Jammer (& Tammer, and Harry the cocker spaniel, and Baby Beagle...)

July 2, 2006

Interesting problem. I've run my assorted GPS units side by side and have seen similar when comparing my Legend, and Vista C to a sportrak, but it was generally a position lag, and would generally sort itself out if I let the unit sit for a few minutes. I don't have a CX unit, but in comparing a Vista C to a Legend I've noticed very similar accuracy as far as navigation to a waypoint. The C does tend to drift off when recording tracks more than the Legend does however. Seems the more "Sensitive" a unit is, the less accurate at recording tracks under some conditions.

While it doesn't sound like this is your problem, you might want to keep the units seperated a bit, as GPS units do radiate noise which could in theory cause you problems. That said, I did a lot of side by side testing myself and could never see anything I thought was interference between units.

Good luck in sorting things out. One other thing you might want to try is setting up your units to record very detailed tracks, then downloading them into a program that will let you overlay them so that you can see what sort of comparisons you get with the units in motion. Tracks, especially when overlaid on aerial photos can be quite the eye opener when looking at the real accuracy of GPS units.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Searching_ut

July 2, 2006

Thanks for the note, UT. I hadn't considered the track feature-- I'll disable it and see if it makes a difference on the Cx, as we don't really use the tracks for much anyways...

I have heard about the potential interference of two units close together, and we normally keep them separate (we each carry one). But for the video, that was a necessary evil, and showed the problem as we always see it. And, the reason we discovered the differences was because when we first went out with our Cx, we didn't take the B&W Legend, and we had a lot of trouble finding the caches. So then we started the parallel work, and were unhappily surprised :laughing: at the frequent difference in accuracy, and even more unhappy that the more expensive unit was always wrong...

It is an odd problem, because right up to the last 100 feet or so, the GPSrs give nearly identical readings to the cache. Then, at some point, the Cx will start to fork in a different and wrong direction. I guess its picking up some interference that the older Legend doesn't? Who knows...

Hopefully I'll get a note back from the Garmin techs in the next few days (although with the holiday I realize it might be delayed a little). Like I said-- if others have this issue, please post a note here as it could help to figure out the problem...

Thanks,

Jammer

July 2, 2006

I just watched the video and I must say that cx must have something wrong with it. I have a legendC and a 60cx and both always take me within 10ft-20ft of each other. I only ever experienced errors like that with my explorist 400, which I send back where I bought it from as defective. good luck, I hope you figure something out.

I also noticed that your legendCx claimed accuracy was jumping around quite a bit, I have not had this on the legendC.

Edited July 2, 2006 by hogrod

July 3, 2006

I just watched the video and I must say that cx must have something wrong with it. I have a legendC and a 60cx and both always take me within 10ft-20ft of each other. I only ever experienced errors like that with my explorist 400, which I send back where I bought it from as defective. good luck, I hope you figure something out.

I also noticed that your legendCx claimed accuracy was jumping around quite a bit, I have not had this on the legendC.

July 3, 2006

I too have seen similar results, especially in any area with overhead vegatation. The number of satellites may drop to 4-5 while other units get 5+. I also noticed the cx needs six sats to get the DOP down to a useable range. Not sure what the cause is, but it makes the eTrek Legend cx almost useless for geocaching. Your video is accurate and replicates the experiences I have encountered when I compare it with an older GPS III+. There may be something that can be done in the firmware. I hope Garmin accepts the challenge.

July 3, 2006

I had the same EXACT issue. I even took my Vista CX back and exchanged it for another Vista CX and the results where exactly the same. I tried all the different suggestions Garmin's tech support gave me as follows:

Thank you for contacting Garmin,

I am happy to help you with this. The accuracy rating is just an estimate

and I believe the WAAS setting is effecting this. It can be difficult to

pick up WAAS so it is best to leave it disabled until you have a clear view

to the south horizon. Also make sure you are not using the battery saver

mode, it will show a greater inaccuracy when this is on. If you have any

additional comments or questions, please do not hesitate to contact us via

email or call our customer service number below.

These did not help at all. I also updated to the most recent firmware for the Vista CX figuring they may have fixed it on a newer release. But again this did nothing. My thoughts are that there is still a firmware issue that Garmin will possibly find eventually but needs this kind of information that the video shows. Great Job documenting this.

As for me I could not deal with this consistant problem and ended up taking it back and ordering the 60CSX from Amazon. Since the Vista Cx cost me $350 at the local store here... the extra $50 to upgrade was a no brainer.

NOTE: if you buy the 60CSX or 60CX do yourself the favor and run the webupdate software as soon as you get it, they have really tweaked alot of old issues... and apparently where I live the WAAS is tough to get do to my location but I have been getting the 'D's on at least 1/2 of my satellites.

So if you can sell your Vista/Lengend CX I would highly recommend getting the 60CX or 60CSX as its replacement.

July 4, 2006

I had the same EXACT issue. I even took my Vista CX back and exchanged it for another Vista CX and the results where exactly the same.

I've had the exact same problems between my old Legend and my LegendCx. Garmin exchanged my Cx with another and the same problems. Updating to 2.5 and still no difference. My Cx is always about 40-60 feet off on the longitude, in the easterly direction, where my old Legend is always within the normal 15-20' error. Side by side, on a clear open field at the cache, the Cx shows the cache is about 60' east. I would never place a new cache using just the Cx because of this problem.

I'm waiting too for a fix since so many users indicate the same problem. If nothing else I'd like to see an option to switch a bit and change the longitude by say 50'. :laughing:

RGS

July 4, 2006

I had the same EXACT issue. I even took my Vista CX back and exchanged it for another Vista CX and the results where exactly the same.

I've had the exact same problems between my old Legend and my LegendCx. Garmin exchanged my Cx with another and the same problems. Updating to 2.5 and still no difference. My Cx is always about 40-60 feet off on the longitude, in the easterly direction, where my old Legend is always within the normal 15-20' error. Side by side, on a clear open field at the cache, the Cx shows the cache is about 60' east. I would never place a new cache using just the Cx because of this problem.

I'm waiting too for a fix since so many users indicate the same problem. If nothing else I'd like to see an option to switch a bit and change the longitude by say 50'.

RGS

Thanks for the note RGS. I'm especially interested to hear that Garmin has been made aware of the issue before...

I haven't paid attention to the direction of the "drift" but I will to see if mine is also in an easterly direction.

We do love the Cx for the color screen, geocaching features, battery life...but that's all fluff if the GPS accuracy is off...

1.5k · July 4, 2006

I bought a Legend Cx about a month ago, and used it today for the first time. Registered to within 4' of the cache. Maybe beginner's luck!

6.4k · July 4, 2006

Obviously looks like something is wrong. i saw the post by the Garmin tech, but the problem with HIS test was that he marke dthe location with the same GPSr then did a GOTO. If the Legend Cx has an inherent offset compared to reality HIS test won't show the problem.

Here is what I suggest. Walk some tracks with both units. Upload the tracks to Mapsource and look at the tracks to see if there is a dtectable normal offset. Send the track file to Garmin. if possible do it with a few different models to show that your units is off comared to all others.

July 9, 2006

I'm currently sitting inside at my computer and I saw a review on the GPSMap76csx (http://gpsinformation.us/gps60c/g76Creview.html) which led me to onder about the WAAS setting. I have had that enabled for almost the whole time I've owned the Venture Cx. Well I turned it off and my reading (indoors) went to ~20ft error. :laughing: I am surprised. I will be trying this out over the next week to see if it has any impact on the accuracy. I had no idea that "WAAS enabling" could have a detrimental effect.

July 11, 2006

I have a new Legend Cx and have similar issues/concerns. When tracking to one Waypoint/Cache I tracked right on target. When locating 3 other waypoints/caches the readings became very irratic within 300 ft, sending me to all different directions. It has happened under tree cover and open ground.

July 12, 2006

I have approximately the same problem.. upgraded from an explorist 200 to Legend Cx.. love the color screen & the autoroute...

Went out caching with a friend that also has an explorist 200, everything was measuring the same until we were about 50-75 ft from ground zero of coordinates... I ended up about 30 ft from where he did...

Next cache, same thing....

On the 3rd cache I fired up my explorist 200, and followed my Legend Cx to where it said ground zero was, once again my buddy wound up going a little different route i did (following his gps unit)... when i hit where the Legend said i should be I looked at my Explorist & it said I was 33 ft away from ground zero,....

went over to where my buddy was standing and my explorist said i was 5 ft away from zero, and my Legend said I was 43 ft away.... oh and the cache was about 2ft from where we were standing by using the Explorist...

I would use the Legend to tell me how to get to the cache area, and then use the explorist to find the cache, but then i am back to inputting coordinates by hand......

July 12, 2006

Thanks for the additional input & testimonies. I have not heard back from Garmin by email since I sent the link to the videos. I am about to send another email to the guy, and if I don't hear back by Monday I'll start calling to try to get some attention on this. Sounds like this problem is not uncommon, to say the least...

More soon.

Jammer

July 12, 2006

I just sent a follow-up email-- here is the text. I'll keep you all posted...

________________________

Hello, again, [NAME] and all.

I have not heard back anything by email since I sent the note below. However, several other geocachers have posted to the forum indicating they are having the exact same problem with their Legend Cx's-- it frequently goes significantly off-course when approaching a geocache, while other GPSr units (Garmin and other brands) are able to consistently get to the geocache area. When I say significantly, I mean that the Legend claims good accuracy (less than 20 feet) but is more than 50 feet away from the location.

Here again is a link to that forum posting, including video showing the errors I am getting. Other geocachers are watching these videos and indicating that they too are having this issue.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...1entry2337101

Please let me know how we should proceed. If I don't hear anything by email, then I'll call the support number next week.

Thanks again-- geocachers are in agreement that Garmin customer support is outstanding!

July 13, 2006

So, is this only a Legend Cx problem? Or is it also an issue for the Legend C or Vista series?

I have a Vista C and had a little trouble finding my first couple caches... so of course you've got me wondering if mine has problems too.

Just started caching. I also have tracks enabled and WAAS turned on.

July 13, 2006

So, is this only a Legend Cx problem? Or is it also an issue for the Legend C or Vista series?

I have a Vista C and had a little trouble finding my first couple caches... so of course you've got me wondering if mine has problems too.

Just started caching. I also have tracks enabled and WAAS turned on.

Right now, there are only questions and no answers. Most of the responses I've garnered have been for Legend Cx and Vista Cx models, and the problem is not constant but does happen frequently. Keep caching for a while, and you'll probably get a better sense if its your Legend or just being new to caching. Ideally, take another GPSr and go caching with some other folks. Which, if you're looking for folks with whom to cache-- schedule an event cache in your area and post coordinates for it, and you could even call it something like "group caching" or "help me check my unit" or similar to be fun...

And welcome to caching! It is a helluva lot better than sitting on the couch all weekend!

July 13, 2006

so far mine seems to be constant.. well at least i guess it is.. i did 9 caches in 2 days & on all 9 it was the same result comparing it to the explorist....

I do have it set for off road use, and waas turned on (of course i tried it with waas off & that was no help)....

wonder if it has to due with me being down in florida ....lol

maybe it doesnt like all the heat..

i will let you know if it for some strange reason gets better when i get back to North Carolina

July 13, 2006

so far mine seems to be constant.. well at least i guess it is.. i did 9 caches in 2 days & on all 9 it was the same result comparing it to the explorist....

I do have it set for off road use, and waas turned on (of course i tried it with waas off & that was no help)....

wonder if it has to due with me being down in florida ....lol

maybe it doesnt like all the heat..

i will let you know if it for some strange reason gets better when i get back to North Carolina

Hey, this could be an interesting parallel test.

I'm in Orlando. I'm heading up to Greenville, SC & the Asheville area this weekend, and may do some caching. I'll also post if I have more luck up there...

Thanks,

Jammer

July 13, 2006

Right now, there are only questions and no answers. Most of the responses I've garnered have been for Legend Cx and Vista Cx models, and the problem is not constant but does happen frequently. Keep caching for a while, and you'll probably get a better sense if its your Legend or just being new to caching. Ideally, take another GPSr and go caching with some other folks. Which, if you're looking for folks with whom to cache-- schedule an event cache in your area and post coordinates for it, and you could even call it something like "group caching" or "help me check my unit" or similar to be fun...

And welcome to caching! It is a helluva lot better than sitting on the couch all weekend!

Thanks!

It's fun, but I find it hard to get out. My 16mo old son goes to bed at about 6:30 and we seem to be busy on weekends. My wife seems somewhat interested... but didn't find pushing around a stroller to be much fun. I though I lost her interest until I couldn't find a 2nd stage multi... sent her in... and she found it in about 2 minutes (here I was about 20-30 feet away from a trail and she found it about 5 feet away).

The event cache idea sounds neat.

So, do you set a time and location for the event... with a description... and people can show up to do whatever?

Here I was thinking that event caches were only for big caching events like formal BBQs and trade events like I've seen online.

Hmm.... that could get interesting!!

July 15, 2006

I'm thinking I saw the same thing with my VistaC today.

I normally just use the map mode to navigate to the cache... but decided to do the Goto compass thing. We walked up from 500m away and when we got close, it was saying the cache was another 100 meters south and west.... when the cache was actually 100meters north east. When I switched to the map mode, I was between 2 markers I had placed before. One was to the West (cache 2/4) and one was to the East (cache 3/4 - the one I was looking for). I had marked both caches a week before and was returning to finish.

Anyway, the compass said to go West (towards cache 2) but when I switched to the map, it showed the next cache being to the East. Had I gone the direction of the compass, I would have been WAY off... BIG time.

I have WAAS enabled... and routing. Didn't try to play with settings as I was with my brother-in-law that was getting impatient about not finding anything.

Seems a little weird... but maybe I was doing something wrong.

July 16, 2006

I'm posting this as a new thread to try and get some new eyes on it, to see if others are having this problem. There has been another thread going for a while which details where a number of us cachers have discussed that our Cx units (Legends and Vistas) consistently go off-course by 30-300 feet when getting close to geocaches (which, as you all know, can be HUGE and extremely frustrating...) while our older GPSr units (like my black and white eTrex Legend) consistently get us right to the very same caches. I have been emailing with Garmin about the issue, but the tech (who is being quite professional and responsive...) wasn't able to replicate the problem in his test. So I told him I would attempt to capture the problem on video...

Just curious but if a GPSr "becomes" off when it arrives near a cache, does that mean it was accurate until this point? Do it know?

July 17, 2006

...Just curious but if a GPSr "becomes" off when it arrives near a cache, does that mean it was accurate until this point? Do it know?

Hello, VI.

In the side-by-side test with other GPSrs (in my my case an older eTrex Legend) both GPSrs give the same readings & distance until the last 100 feet or so. That's when the Legend Cx tends to start pointing in a different direction from the older Legend. And, unfortunately, when this happens the Cx is always wrong (which it so say, the Cx takes me significantly further from the geocache than the other unit).

August 7, 2006

Any update on this?

I found this thread immediately after I went out and splurged and bought a Legend Cx (my excuse was that the wife and kids kidnapped my poor eTrex yellow and took it to Indiana with them for a week). Had I seen the thread earlier, I might (maybe, possibly) have dug a bit deeper and gotten the 60Cx. I've only been to six caches with the new unit (five of them with a fellow cacher wielding a 60C), and it seems mostly OK so far....except that it lost accuracy when I enabled WAAS.

Without WAAS, it hung right with the 60C (we did four caches that day that neither of us had ever found before, and I found three of them...the one he found first I didn't look for because that was the moment I decided to enable my WAAS and power-cycle the unit). With the WAAS on, the cache was outside my 'circle of accuracy' by about 25' (I was standing at the cache, with the unit saying the cache was 39' away and that it had 15' accuracy). On the next cache (which he had found, so only I looked for it), the unit once again had the cache outside my circle of accuracy with WAAS enabled. I disabled WAAS and re-circled, and it immediately 'zeroed' me at about 10' from the cache location with 12' accuracy.

When my little yellow comes home, I plan on doing tests similar to the one done by T&J....and I'm hoping fervently for a firmware update that will fix any bugaboos.

BTW, T&J, are y'all not logging online any more? I recognized that cache you took the video at because I was in that park twice for the old cache that was there (took me two tries to get it), and three times for the new cache (once to find, once to restock, and once to bring my daughter to find).

August 8, 2006

Without WAAS, it hung right with the 60C (we did four caches that day that neither of us had ever found before, and I found three of them...the one he found first I didn't look for because that was the moment I decided to enable my WAAS and power-cycle the unit). With the WAAS on, the cache was outside my 'circle of accuracy' by about 25' (I was standing at the cache, with the unit saying the cache was 39' away and that it had 15' accuracy). On the next cache (which he had found, so only I looked for it), the unit once again had the cache outside my circle of accuracy with WAAS enabled. I disabled WAAS and re-circled, and it immediately 'zeroed' me at about 10' from the cache location with 12' accuracy.

I just picked up a venture cx and its worked great so far but I haven't cached with it yet. I'll have to compare it to my gecko. Although, remember when you're caching, the distance you're off is a combination of your inaccuracy and the person who placed the cache's inaccuracy. eg, if the person that placed the cache was 40' off to the east, and your gps was off 15' to the west when it said you were "there".....

August 12, 2006

I have a Garmin 76csx. I like the unit but am disappointed with the drift I am getting. I can set it down and sometimes it will drift up to 75 feet. And that can be with it right on the cache.

I am still trying to work around it by circling the cache and getting readings from different angles to triangulate the cache.... on some occasions it is dead on.... the problem seems to be more under canopy.

It will also tell me I'm 35 feet off, but when I move towards that location, it will then tell me I'm 35 feet, or so, off the other way.... frustrating.

August 14, 2006

Here's my two cents worth. I bought a Garmin Venture Cx in May and was using it for Geocaching. It seemed to work great. Yesterday I attempted to do 4 caches. The first one it kept putting me in the middle of a busy road. I gave up on that one. The next three I found but they were all 30- 60 feet to the west of ground zero. I tried with Waas enabled and disabled. I also but in new batteries. Either thing made no differance. The laditude seemed to be right on, but the longitude was off. The pointer was also pointing in every direction. I had a good satellite fix. I also set up a waypoint in my backyard when I first bought my Venture. Now when I GOTO it, it is pointing me 490ft to the south of the actual location where I first measured it. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. Thanks.......????????

Edited August 14, 2006 by parrothead61348

Video- Legend Cx Accuracy Problem-- Does This Happen To You?

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