New Guidelines Section

[+JohnnyVegas]

After reading the threads regarding all the cheating that has been going in at some of the events re. Pocket caches, Taking caches to events to allow people to log them without findind them and signing the outside of a cache rather than a log boog to savetime.

 

May a section can be added to the guidlines titled "Things that may get you band"

[+KoosKoos]

It's not a listing of what might get you banned, but how about these sections on what's allowed for caches:

 

From the Guidelines:

 

"Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions."

 

"Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there. "

 

How do pocket caches meet these guidelines?

 

Maybe repeatedly misusing the site might get you banned?

[+JohnnyVegas]

It's not a listing of what might get you banned, but how about these sections on what's allowed for caches:

 

From the Guidelines:

 

"Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions."

 

"Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there. "

 

How do pocket caches meet these guidelines?

 

Maybe repeatedly misusing the site might get you banned?

I am well aware if what is in the guidlines, but with all the violations that have been going on it would appear that there are a number of cachers that have to be hit in the head with a 2X4 to get their attention.

As far as Pocket caches, I did not see any mention of these in the guidlines.

There has been a problem with people taking pocket caches to events (Print outs of cache pages) then cachers at the events have been loging those caches as finds without having to go to the cache site.

 

There are a number of cachers that just do not care about what is in the guidlines. Some of these cachers have been around for a long time with lots of finds. I am sure they are familiar with the guidelines, they just do not care.

[+The Leprechauns]

Accepting as fact that some people (1) don't read the guidelines, and (2) don't care, what is accomplished by repeating what is already in there? The quoted provisions are adequate to make it clear that taking an existing cache to an event is not permitted (moving cache), and that having a cache page published for a temporary cache at an event is not permitted. You can say it again a different way, sure. But it just makes a long document grow even longer. Even fewer people will read it then.

[+MountainMudbug]

Seems like whatever isn't exactly spelled out in guidelines is open for doing.

If it doesn't say "no pocket caches", then it's ok.

If it doesn't say "don't have a cache placed in Serbivaniasivakia, temp disable that cache and take it to an event in Balkimainistan for logging, then return to Servianiasivakia and rehide the cache", then fine, do it.

 

Much like when you were a kid and your Mom said, "you kids don't run with scissors!", and as a kid you said to yourself, "well, she didn't say we couldn't run with pitchforks, did she!'" (didn't you do that as a kid, too?)

It doesn't mean running with pitchforks is a good idea, just because she didn't forbid it

[+Markwell]

May a section can be added to the guidlines titled "Things that may get you band"

 

Here ya go:

Contact your local chapter of the American Federation of Musicians... They should be able to get you band.

 

Seriously? OK

Not following these MAY get you banned. Not following these MAY get you banned. Using loopholes in the system to circumvent the existing guidelines MAY get you banned.

[+KoosKoos]

Seems like whatever isn't exactly spelled out in guidelines is open for doing.

If it doesn't say "no pocket caches", then it's ok.

If it doesn't say "don't have a cache placed in Serbivaniasivakia, temp disable that cache and take it to an event in Balkimainistan for logging, then return to Servianiasivakia and rehide the cache", then fine, do it.

 

Much like when you were a kid and your Mom said, "you kids don't run with scissors!", and as a kid you said to yourself, "well, she didn't say we couldn't run with pitchforks, did she!'" (didn't you do that as a kid, too?)

It doesn't mean running with pitchforks is a good idea, just because she didn't forbid it

 

And how odd, but she'd punish me just the same....and don't get me started on those Balkimainistan events....THOSE people are just evil cachers!!!! After seeing the logs they post, there's no WAY I'm ever going back to an event in their neck of the woods.

[vagabond]

How about something like this on pocket caches.

 

Jeremy Today, 12:24 PM Post #196

 

 

workin' on it

 

 

 

Posts: 8,216

Joined: 1-June 00

From: Emerald City, USA

 

 

 

 

It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site

in order to log someone's pocket lint.

 

If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned.

 

My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations.

 

 

--------------------

 

Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location ™

 

Sounds good to me

Edited May 31, 2006 by vagabond

[+ArcticNomad]

Seems like whatever isn't exactly spelled out in guidelines is open for doing.

If it doesn't say "no pocket caches", then it's ok.

If it doesn't say "don't have a cache placed in Serbivaniasivakia, temp disable that cache and take it to an event in Balkimainistan for logging, then return to Servianiasivakia and rehide the cache", then fine, do it.

 

Much like when you were a kid and your Mom said, "you kids don't run with scissors!", and as a kid you said to yourself, "well, she didn't say we couldn't run with pitchforks, did she!'" (didn't you do that as a kid, too?)

It doesn't mean running with pitchforks is a good idea, just because she didn't forbid it

 

OK.... butttttttt you took it from Serbivaniasivakia and brought it to Balkimainistan and THEN brought it to yet another new location of Servianiasivakia... and now all those people in Serbivaniasivakia are upset too... and I can't find Servianiasivakia on my Google map ANYWHERE....... so how can I go and log it???

 

(Just kidding around MountainMudbug, I actually agree with you 100% on this topic! It is amazing how people will openly violate the 'rules' of leaving a cache to be found where it is posted as being. It adds nothing to the activity at all.)

[+Recdiver]

Seems like whatever isn't exactly spelled out in guidelines is open for doing.

If it doesn't say "no pocket caches", then it's ok.

If it doesn't say "don't have a cache placed in Serbivaniasivakia, temp disable that cache and take it to an event in Balkimainistan for logging, then return to Servianiasivakia and rehide the cache", then fine, do it.

 

Much like when you were a kid and your Mom said, "you kids don't run with scissors!", and as a kid you said to yourself, "well, she didn't say we couldn't run with pitchforks, did she!'" (didn't you do that as a kid, too?)

It doesn't mean running with pitchforks is a good idea, just because she didn't forbid it

Okay so we add "No Pocket Caches" to the guidelines and next month someone shows up with the "Fanny Pack Cache" and after the fact they'll whine "But it doesn't say we couldn't have a cache stuffed in our fanny pack in the guidelines"

[+MountainMudbug]

Okay so we add "No Pocket Caches" to the guidelines and next month someone shows up with the "Fanny Pack Cache" and after the fact they'll whine "But it doesn't say we couldn't have a cache stuffed in our fanny pack in the guidelines"

 

Oh, how did you know fanny packs are my pet peeve?! And one with a pocket cache stuffed inside, yet!

I feel faint just considering this.....

[+RichardMoore]

Okay so we add "No Pocket Caches" to the guidelines and next month someone shows up with the "Fanny Pack Cache" and after the fact they'll whine "But it doesn't say we couldn't have a cache stuffed in our fanny pack in the guidelines"

 

Oh, how did you know fanny packs are my pet peeve?! And one with a pocket cache stuffed inside, yet!

I feel faint just considering this.....

Thinking about Recdiver's fanny pack makes you feel faint?

[+Quest Master]

I'm quite confused at this point. The rule prohibiting moving caches has been cited (to me) as the reason for abruptly archiving some of the so-called pocket caches, including one of mine (that had absolutely nothing to do with Geowoodstock, BTW). This does not make sense to me. The moving cache guidline, if I remember correctly, was intended to end the practice of creating a cache that is supposed to move to a new location after it is found. There are some grandfathered moving caches still floating around but that's beside the point. This rule is archaic and no longer applicable since the website no longer permits users to change coordinates by more than 528 feet or something like that. A pocket cache, therefore, is not a moving cache. A pocket cache is (I think) a cache being found at a location other than the location where it is supposed to be hidden. I would agree that this violates the spirt of "the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions" but it does not necessarily violate the letter of the law if the cache is hidden at alternate coordinates. I think that a pocket cache also violates the spirit of certain maintenance guidelines such as "The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements". I don't think it's clear what is "bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements". The guidelines probably could be more specific on this point. I have little doubt that the pocket cachers at Geowoodstock thought that they were doing anything wrong. If and when TPTB throw another fit in the face of rampant "cheating", and hand down an edict to summarily execute certain caches, it would probably be a good idea to give a specific reason. All I got was a link to a post in these forums saying something about pocket lint! What will bring down the axe next time? Owners logging their own caches? Logging events multiple times? Allowing bonus finds on regular caches? I must confess that I'm more amused than disgusted by this state of affairs but I really do wish that somebody would explain what's going on. Thanks in advance.

[+Team Smokey]

It could be that people do not look at the term "guideline" as hard and fast "rules". I think that the term "guideline" itself is a little obscure, as you can take it to mean "rule" or "suggestion".

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

Accepting as fact that some people (1) don't read the guidelines, and (2) don't care, what is accomplished by repeating what is already in there? The quoted provisions are adequate to make it clear that taking an existing cache to an event is not permitted (moving cache), and that having a cache page published for a temporary cache at an event is not permitted. You can say it again a different way, sure. But it just makes a long document grow even longer. Even fewer people will read it then.

 

Agreed. It's the gun law fallacy. "What?!? People are breaking the law?!? Let's make a new law banning the breaking of the other law!"

[Ferreter5]

Pocket caches are silly.

 

If you want to do something *like* a pocket cache, use a travel bug or a trackable geocoin that folks can log when they meet you on the trail, at an event, or wherever.

[+JohnnyVegas]

but it does not necessarily violate the letter of the law if the cache is hidden at alternate coordinates.

I sure does, the cache was taken to another location. Just because the coordinates were not changed on the web site does has nothing to dio with it.

 

Like I have said in some other threads

 

If you do not like the guidlines and feel the restrict your style of play, use one of the other cache listing services.

[+Prothos]

We just started to cache. i think this whole number thing is stupid. We are in it for the family fun. The kids love the hunt and it gives use quality family time. So what do you truely get for finding the most? a big ego and something else to brag about that may make you think that it makes you look important.

[+Recdiver]

We just started to cache. i think this whole number thing is stupid. We are in it for the family fun. The kids love the hunt and it gives use quality family time. So what do you truely get for finding the most? a big ego and something else to brag about that may make you think that it makes you look important.

When I first got into caching oh so long ago (just over a year) I did it for the novelty and because I'm a gadget geek. Then the thrill of the hunt seeped into my bones, then the competition of finding caches that were off the beaten path. I did a cache machine early on and enjoyed the group caching aspect of it more than the racking up the numbers bit. If I was physically able I'd concentrate on the really difficult climb to the mountain peaks kind of cache but age and multiple knee surgeries put paid to those.

Unless I could retire with an income that would let me travel and cache I'll never be at the top of the charts so the numbers to me is just a way for me to track my progress.

Which brings me back to "no one needs to see my numbers but me" and I'd prefer that option.

[+Team Shydog]

It could be that people do not look at the term "guideline" as hard and fast "rules". I think that the term "guideline" itself is a little obscure, as you can take it to mean "rule" or "suggestion".

I really think this post hits the nail on the head. I say it is time to sent Signal up to the top of Mt. Hood and not let him come down until he has a couple of tablets with the RULES of geocaching engraved on them.

[+LaPaglia]

It could be that people do not look at the term "guideline" as hard and fast "rules". I think that the term "guideline" itself is a little obscure, as you can take it to mean "rule" or "suggestion".

I really think this post hits the nail on the head. I say it is time to sent Signal up to the top of Mt. Hood and not let him come down until he has a couple of tablets with the RULES of geocaching engraved on them.

You would not like the results. Remember the folks that got the first 10 rules didnt like them either.

[+ThePropers]

We just started to cache. i think this whole number thing is stupid. We are in it for the family fun. The kids love the hunt and it gives use quality family time. So what do you truely get for finding the most? a big ego and something else to brag about that may make you think that it makes you look important.

 

You are completely forgetting about the golden ammo can for 1000 finds. It's worth something like $6!!! If that's not enough reason to care about numbers, then I don't know what is. I mean, it's a $6 ammo can!!! Painted gold!!! Gold like the sun!!!

 

[+NoLemon]

We just started to cache. i think this whole number thing is stupid. We are in it for the family fun. The kids love the hunt and it gives use quality family time. So what do you truely get for finding the most? a big ego and something else to brag about that may make you think that it makes you look important.

 

You are completely forgetting about the golden ammo can for 1000 finds. It's worth something like $6!!! If that's not enough reason to care about numbers, then I don't know what is. I mean, it's a $6 ammo can!!! Painted gold!!! Gold like the sun!!!

 

 

You get a gold ammo can for 1000 finds? WOW! Around here you don't get the gold ammo can until you have 2000 finds, you only get silver for 1000.

 

On Topic: New rules/guidelines aren't going to help. The same people that ignore them now will continue to ignore them. What is so difficult with "the cache must be available to be found at the posted coordinates"? Why is this such a difficult issue for some people to grasp? Why isn't it obvious that a pocket cache doesn't meet that criteria?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

After reading the threads regarding all the cheating that has been going in at some of the events re. Pocket caches, Taking caches to events to allow people to log them without findind them and signing the outside of a cache rather than a log boog to savetime.

 

May a section can be added to the guidlines titled "Things that may get you band"

Suppose you're playing baseball. You're up to bat and the bases are loaded. Is it ok for the runners to pick up the bases and move them closer to home plate thereby allowing you to score more easily? Surely the rules of the game don't spell out this exact scenario, so it must be ok, right?

[+Quest Master]

but it does not necessarily violate the letter of the law if the cache is hidden at alternate coordinates.

I sure does, the cache was taken to another location. Just because the coordinates were not changed on the web site does has nothing to dio with it.

 

Like I have said in some other threads

 

If you do not like the guidlines and feel the restrict your style of play, use one of the other cache listing services.

 

The problem is not that the cache was taken to another location. If I took a cache home to fix it up or show it to my brother, would that be a violation of the guidelines? Obviously not. It's not a "moving cache" or a "pocket cache" unless somebody is allowed to "find" it when it's not in its proper spot. If a cache is carried away by a flood, or kidnapped by muggles, and found at an alternate location does that make it a "moving" cache or a "pocket" cache subject to summary execution by TPTB if somebody is permitted to log it? I think not but I could be wrong. So the real issue is not whether or not the cache "moved". It's an issue of improper logging being sanctioned by the cache owner. This opens up a big can of worms. The guidelines say "The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements". I'm not sure what all of this means but it's pretty obvious to me that a great many caches could get nuked for a great variety of logging guidelines violations. If somebody checks my logbook and finds that somebody logged my cache online but not in the logbook, can they rat me out to the website and get my cache nuked? That's an extreme example but I'm throwing it out there for the sake of argument. The Great Geowoodstock Purge of 2006, has taught us that the penalty for sanctioning "pocket caching" is the immediate archival and locking of the offending cache. I really do have to wonder what's coming next! Except in the case of flagrant violations like those seen at Geowoodstock, it's going to be very difficult for the website to police logging violations. They will have to rely on geocachers tattling on each other. I don't think I like where this is going.

 

I'm fine with the rules. I could live with more. I agree that my cache was in violation of the guidelines because I allowed a handful of people to log it at an alternate location 9 months ago. I reiterate that I was not involved in any of the stuff that happend at Geowoodstock but I'll admit that my violations were no less flagrant even though they were on a MUCH smaller scale. I just don't see the point of caches being dealt the death penalty. Wouldn't it make more sense for the website to insist that the "bogus" logs be removed before archiving the listing and/or locking it down? I'm still waiting for an explanation that makes sense in the context of the guidlines as I understand them.