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Virtual Geocoins In Micro's Against The Rules?


DangerousDale

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My wife came up with what I thought was a good idea. She suggested that we create some micro caches (that are too small to hold the geocoins) and put in the coin number. That way when someone found them they not only got the find but got to list a geocoin as well. Since she has some unique coins and corresponding icons that some people actually are looking for and want on their trackable page. Now she was told that this is agains the rules? Why? What difference does it make if they are holding the coin or not if they found the cache?

And if she were to make a copy of it and put it in the cache would that make it all better as I saw some that were trying to do to get around the stupid rule? I enjoy geocaching very much but sometimes the rules get out of control. I agree on many of the rules and even had to warn someone that had created a cache on private property that he was in violation but that was so no one went to jail or paid a fine, and/or hurt the geocahcing image. But what or who does this really hurt if she did this.

We thought it would make it much more desireable to go for the micro than just finding it and signing the log. We live in an area where there is not many areas for large caches so most of them around us are Micros. And we have been trying to come up with ways to make them more interesting and thought this was it. And a lot of people really want to have the custom icons, we buy coins with that purpose in mine. We enjoy seeing them on our trackable pages, and we go to geoevents so we can trade geocoins with others to get these. I don't see this as a bad thing. And GC does get compensated for these as well from what I understand it's $1.50 per coin to have them trackable on the website. And exactly where are these rules about the TB's and Geocoins at? I have never seen them now or prior to this discussion page where my wife was directed to by one of the approvers.

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My wife came up with what I thought was a good idea. She suggested that we create some micro caches (that are too small to hold the geocoins) and put in the coin number. That way when someone found them they not only got the find but got to list a geocoin as well.

 

Why would someone want to get credit for finding a coin that they really didn't find? I've "found" coins at meetings that people had with them, but I actually had my hands on the coin.

 

Isn't what you're suggesting the same as giving someone permission to log two of your caches as found just by finding one? Doesn't sound like it's against the rules, but it's a silly thing to do.

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I think most people would want to see the geocoin and hold it in their hand, not just

read the number off a piece of paper.

Obviously there are those people out there who will do anything to add an icon to their

list of 'finds', but I am not one of those people.

 

I want to actually find what I am logging.

 

I might find your proposed cache, but I wouldn't log the coin. Feels like cheating (or if you

are offended by the use of that word, try 'numbers padding').

 

Perhaps there are ways to make your micros more interesting, try puzzles or multis or

very unique camo....

 

(edit for spelling)

Edited by MountainMudbug
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Interesting concept. I've found a few caches, I like finding them, and also an icon 'ho. I like seeing the new icons on my profile; I like my numbers. I dont care what you think about them though.

 

But I would never claim a find on a cache I didn't sign the log book for (ok there have been two containers that were rusted or stuck shut so I signed the container itself :huh: gotta love a sharpie) nor would I care to have an icon for a coin I didn't get to see and fondle and enjoy. No thanks. :huh:

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I thought a coin was supposed to be like a travel bug, you find it in a cache and move it to another cache somewhere else.

 

In a perfect world yes. But in the real world they suddenly disappear after one or two logs.

 

Folks should just stop making them. It would make everyone's life much easier.

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So glue the coin down inside the cache and weld the cache to something to make it unmoveable.

 

If you are worried about the coin "getting lost" - that seems like a good comprimise.

 

Either a coin is trackable and swapable like a TB or you keep it for display - but not both. It's just a little picture on a web page......I don't need a Groundspeak trackable slip of paper with a number on it.

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Why would someone want to get credit for finding a coin that they really didn't find? I've "found" coins at meetings that people had with them, but I actually had my hands on the coin.

 

But they would be finding the cache and a picture of it inside if that was truly necessary. :huh:

 

Tell me something I have hear from several of you that you wouldn't want to log it for whatever reason, and I respect that. That is your choice but, what about the others that do want to, why can't I do this for them?

 

What harm is it causing, will the national debt go up, will planes fall from the sky, what is the harm in doing this for the people that do want it? :huh:

 

I think that we should have a choice, not to be dicatated to by the people that DON'T want to log it unless they have had the coin in their grubby hands! :huh:

 

I paid for the coin, who are you to tell me what I can or can't do with it?

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Virtual Coins are the same as Virtual Travel Bugs and are not allowed. Please click here.

 

It is not a virtual coin, and the link you posted does not even address the issue. It lists TB's and not coins.

 

Where is this so called rules at, I have yet to see them posted, not on forums but posted like the rules and guidelines of the geocaches.

Edited by DangerousDale
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It is not a virtual coin, and the link you posted does not even address the issue. It lists TB's and not coins.

 

Where is this so called rules at, I have yet to see them posted, not on forums but posted like the rules and guidelines of the geocaches.

You aren't going to see such a rule posted anywhere, because there isn't one posted. And with respect to virtual travelers, there isn't a distinction between travel bugs and geocoins.

 

In this post, Jeremy makes this all pretty clear:

 

There was no reason to have a rule in place to say that fake logging wasn't allowed either. A "virtual" travel bug or geocoin is some manufactured term we never used here. Since the intent was to actually map a physical move in the real world we thought that the point of a Travel Bug or Geocoin was pretty clear.

 

edit: typo

Edited by cache_test_dummies
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So glue the coin down inside the cache and weld the cache to something to make it unmoveable.

 

If you are worried about the coin "getting lost" - that seems like a good comprimise.

 

Either a coin is trackable and swapable like a TB or you keep it for display - but not both. It's just a little picture on a web page......I don't need a Groundspeak trackable slip of paper with a number on it.

 

Do you know what a coin looks like? They have 2 sides and some even have things on the edge as well.

 

Plus the fact that most of these are not cheap, they range from around 10 to 20 on up past several hundred dollars. And if we do spend that kind of money I think we should be allowed to post them in a cache if we want, where is the harm?

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I paid for the coin, who are you to tell me what I can or can't do with it?

 

First of all I didn't tell you what to do with it. I asked a question.

 

Second of all, I'm one of the forum readers that you ASKED in your original post. You can't ask me for my opinion and then get mad when I give it.

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You aren't going to see such a rule posted anywhere, because there isn't one posted. And with respect to virtual travelers, there isn't a distinction between travel bugs and geocoins.

 

Why, there is several rules and guidelines for the geocaches, why is there no written rules OR consequences for placing a virtual coin in the cache?> :huh:

Are we supposed to just have some inner voice telling us "Maybe I shouldn't create a virtual geocoin in my cache?" Are the voices talking to you, because I don't hear them? :huh:

 

And not every geocacher reads or goes to the forums so how are we to know this is against the rules if we don't have any rules written anywhere? :D

 

If we have a picture of the coin on the page itself you can see it, the only thing you don't get to do is hold it or drool on it. :huh:

Edited by DangerousDale
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And if we do spend that kind of money I think we should be allowed to post them in a cache if we want, where is the harm?

The harm is in the abuse, which was what finally resulted in the action to stop the practice.

 

A couple of isolated virtual loggings and nobody cares. Hundreds of virtual travelers, growing in numbers every day, being logged continuously in and out of caches all over the planet, and TPTB had to step in and shut it down.

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I paid for the coin, who are you to tell me what I can or can't do with it?

 

First of all I didn't tell you what to do with it. I asked a question.

 

Second of all, I'm one of the forum readers that you ASKED in your original post. You can't ask me for my opinion and then get mad when I give it.

 

You are right, I apologize! I am not mad at you personally just the situation. I didn't ask YOU, I posted a question and you answered, and then I quoted you. And most of what I quoted you was answered by my post the only part that wasn't was that statement. So let me qualify it.

 

What right do any of the people that are in this discussion forum except for Jeremy has the right to tell me what to do with my geocoins? I realize that this is a discussion forum and ideas and opinions are passed around but who actually has the final say and why is what I am looking for.

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And if we do spend that kind of money I think we should be allowed to post them in a cache if we want, where is the harm?

The harm is in the abuse, which was what finally resulted in the action to stop the practice.

 

A couple of isolated virtual loggings and nobody cares. Hundreds of virtual travelers, growing in numbers every day, being logged continuously in and out of caches all over the planet, and TPTB had to step in and shut it down.

 

Okay I understand that abuse of the system to put them in and out of caches all over the world.

But this is different, it is in a physical cache that we created and has the number inside. It only gets logged if someone goes to the cache, finds the cache, finds the number and then logs it along with the cache. Now I don't see that as abuse, do you?

I have never understood zero tolerance, I feel that there is always some gray areas and to say we can't do anything except this and that is kind of stupid in my opinion. Like the kid that gets suspended from school because he got a plastic toy gun out of the gumball machine that is smaller than a dime and takes it to school and gets suspended. PLEASE people lets use some common sense!

 

And what about those people that did the abuse, did you shut down their accounts or the geocoins. What if it was someone's coin that other people used to do this, who are you hurting the person who did the abuse or the unlucky person who owned the coin?>

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Okay I understand that abuse of the system to put them in and out of caches all over the world.

But this is different, it is in a physical cache that we created and has the number inside. It only gets logged if someone goes to the cache, finds the cache, finds the number and then logs it along with the cache. Now I don't see that as abuse, do you?

Ahh, but once someone has the numbers, they can log it in and out of any cache - that's where the abuse comes from. Yes, that can happen with any traveler, at any time, but the virtual travlers encouraged that. Some of them were getting so bad, Jeremy finally called a halt to it. And you have to admit, it's his website and if he doesn't want that going on he is the one that can say "NO".

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... She suggested that we create some micro caches (that are too small to hold the geocoins) and put in the coin number. That way when someone found them they not only got the find but got to list a geocoin as well. Since she has some unique coins and corresponding icons that some people actually are looking for and want on their trackable page. Now she was told that this is agains the rules? Why? What difference does it make if they are holding the coin or not if they found the cache?

And if she were to make a copy of it and put it in the cache would that make it all better as I saw some that were trying to do to get around the stupid rule? ...

I don't think making a copy of a coin is trying to get around any rules. If you want to make a copy of your coin and release, then do so. You would be using the serial number to this one 'copy' coin as it moves.

Just giving out the number, or putting it on a cache or TB webpage, would make it a 'virtual coin'. You're no longer tracking something (ie the coin, or its clone), but just giving out icons/numbers. Virtual coins/travel bugs are not allowed and tend to get locked when found by the admins. They often produce nonesense gibberish for the TB system to record, especially if people start logging fake movements (To Mt. Fuji and back in 20 minutes!).

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And not every geocacher reads or goes to the forums so how are we to know this is against the rules if we don't have any rules written anywhere?

 

It would seem that the reviewer told you.

 

The issue is server load apparently. I have a coin that is really travelling, however, from time to time, some fruitcake feels the need to log it into and out of caches in Iraq or China or Antarctica. It's fake travel, it generates demand on the servers and emails to me and the several others watching the listing. When I paid for the tracking, I paid to really track the actual physical movement of the coin, not all the 'virtual' movements cachers could invent for it.

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But this was to give other geocachers a bonus, remember those. A little something extra for people that find micro's all the time and nothing to take out or the ability to put anything in. The only thing to do is sign log, this gives them a little extra for the find. And then the option to log it or not depending on their beliefs (don't want to because they didn't hold it in their hands) would be up to them.

 

And anyone can take a coin or TB that they found and put it all over the world etc and I do see that as an abuse of the system. But I think that they should punish the person doing this not the coin or TB owner.

And if there isn't rules for this maybe they should start making them. Just like they did for the caches, I'm sure it was a learning process of what works and what doesn't. Thats all I am asking for? :(

Edited by DangerousDale
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But this was to give other geocachers a bonus, remember those. A little something extra for people that find micro's all the time and nothing to take out or the ability to put anything in. The only thing to do is sign log, this gives them a little extra for the find.

Your motive behind allowing loggings of the virtual traveler isn't the issue.

 

The issue is that logs related to travelers are supposed to be related to movement of the travelers. Your geocoin isn't moving.

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I like your idea, to give a Icon to all that find your cache

 

Indiana, Tennessee, Georgia and California all have or will have micro Geocoins with Icons out

that will fit inside 35mm film cans 1 Inch

starting around 3.50 each

If you drill a hole in the coin (making it uncollectible) than chain it down some how.

 

maybe a real geocoin will stay put ? unknw.gif

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A solution is easy. Email the number to all of the finders for your cache. That way you know they are getting the number and you don't have to worry about any of the rules.

 

Better, email the finders of your cache the numbers to all of your geocoins when they find the cache.

 

Better yet, email the finder of all of your caches the numbers of all ofyour geocoins when they find any cache.

 

Oh, oh, wait. Just post all of the number to all of your geocoins right here in this thread for anyone to log because we all of geocachers and 99.99% have found at least one geocache.

 

WARNING! OPINION FOLLOWS!

Whether it was asked for or not...

 

I think the virtual logging of travelers or geocoins just about the dumbest thing ever to invade the geocaching world. It was bad enough that there were codeword caches which weren't caches at all. Jeremy made a smart move to shut them down.

 

Greed for icons and numbers have produced the activity of folks bringing multiple binders to events and encouraging folks to log the coins as if they found them. Does anyone remember what the "trackable number" is for? I could have gotten 20 or 30 icons from one event if I so choose, but what would that have accompished? What ever happened to the trill of actually going out and finding actual, real objects in a cache? What about the surprise of actually finding a coin in the cache?

 

What's next, folks bringing caches to events so they can get logged? Don't scoff as I'm sure many of us would have scoffed at the notion we're dealing with in this thread. Besides, I've seen it happen.

 

So, folks, when can we get back to getting out in the woods and finding real, live caches with decent swag in places that you would go even without the promise of a smilie?

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Well, let's see. A geocoin is an object purchased by someone for the purpose of entertaining themselves and others. They may have a goal or not.

 

Traditionally, the coin is placed in a cache by someone. The next person to find the cache sees the coin and decides whether they want to participate. If so, they take it, log it on a website, then leave it in another cache. If they don't like geocoins, they can leave it where they found it.

 

The person who does move the geocoin along ends up with nothing but a memory, an icon, and an increase by one of their geocoin stats.

 

In the suggested case, a picture of the coin, along with the number and an explanatory note, is placed in a micro. Another cacher comes along and finds the cache. They see the picture of the coin, read the note and decide whether they want to to participate. If so, they note the number of the coin, log it on a website (out of, then back into the cache). If they don't like geocoins, they can ignore the note.

 

The person who does log the coin is left with nothing but a memory, an icon, and an increase by one of their geocoin stats.

 

As far as the 'geocoins have to move' concept? Does that mean I have to move every geocoin I find? Does it mean that every geocoin I buy has to be placed into circulation? Does it mean the the suggested idea of welding a coin to the cache and then securing it with a chain is unacceptable? Of course not.

 

The OP's idea is sound, and is no more subject to abuse than a coin that's made of metal, rather than paper.

 

On the other hand, as was mentioned, this is Jeremy's website. If he doesn't want this idea to become reality on his site, that's fine. His house, his rules. I respect that. I appreciate the work that goes in to making this thing happen. That's why I pony up the bucks and have purchased memberships for others as gifts. If he says no, the answer's no.

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Oh, here's another thought.

 

On the Nearest Cache Page there is a column for hitch hikers and this inlcudes coins. What would someone think if they see an icon for, say, a USA coin and want to go see it. They find the cache and the only thing in there is a slip of paper with the tracking number on it. How disappointed would you think they would be?

 

How many of you can see the difference in finding a slip of paper with a tracking number and not finding a coin because someone got there first?

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I won't bother joining the discussion, except to totally agree with CoyoteRed.

 

And to mention that (IMO) "virtual coins" were never an problem, as geocaching.com doesn't give the facility to create them (every tracking number has an associated physical item, as the whole idea is to find physical items).

 

So the issue was with bogus logs of real coins. There is, of course, no problem with doing this, but another web site has to be used: there is no way of pretend-logging on geocaching.com without annoying people.

 

HH

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I won't bother joining the discussion, except to totally agree with CoyoteRed.

HH

 

Ditto read my sig line.

There is a cache close to me used as a virtual store for geocoins i got really excited at first at the prospect of finding and moving real coins i then saw it was a micro and had 4 coins it read the description and realised it was used to hold coins away from someones inventory.

GCTFM4 if anyone is interested.

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I paid for the coin, who are you to tell me what I can or can't do with it?

 

First of all I didn't tell you what to do with it. I asked a question.

 

Second of all, I'm one of the forum readers that you ASKED in your original post. You can't ask me for my opinion and then get mad when I give it.

 

You are right, I apologize! I am not mad at you personally just the situation. I didn't ask YOU, I posted a question and you answered, and then I quoted you. And most of what I quoted you was answered by my post the only part that wasn't was that statement. So let me qualify it.

 

What right do any of the people that are in this discussion forum except for Jeremy has the right to tell me what to do with my geocoins? I realize that this is a discussion forum and ideas and opinions are passed around but who actually has the final say and why is what I am looking for.

 

 

Stop looking as your answer is in the Terms Of Use.

 

Groundspeak may change, suspend, or discontinue any portion of the Site, or any service offered on the Site, at any time, including but not limited to any feature, database, application, or content. Groundspeak may also impose limits on certain features offered on the Site with or without notice

 

As noted in previous post Jeremy has twice stated its not happening anymore. So you have your answer. Im sorry its not one you like.

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To do what you want you would have to place a copy of the coin within the cache. To keep the coin from actually traveling you would have to figure out how to affixe so it doesn't come out of the cache plus say on your cache page that the copy of the coin isn't meant to travel.

 

There is no rule about travel bugs not traveling. Jeremy has come out agasint virtual travel bugs and coins. That's different from a copy of a coin that is traveling (or nailed to the cache).

 

A copy of a coin is a physical item. Not virtual. The ban on virtuals covers swapping of the tracking numbers. In other words there is no object who's movements (or adventures) are being tracked.

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Okay, quick related question, just to specify...

 

Someone plans on attending a CITO event, for example, and drops a coin at the event ahead of time. They bring the coin with them, and those that ask for it are given the coin. Those people get the number off of the coin, and give it back to the owner. Back at home, the event is logged and the coin is taken out and immediately replaced by the people that asked for it. Then the owner of the coin takes the coin out of the event before archiving.

 

Is this against the rules? I read all of the posts above, and I couldn't really tell, since it's a real coin, at a real event, but the people took the coin for only a few minutes, and replaced it. Sorry if it's a stupid question... I just wanted to be clear on that point, because I have a coin that I considered doing that with, although obviously I won't if it's not allowed.

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Okay, quick related question, just to specify...

 

Someone plans on attending a CITO event, for example, and drops a coin at the event ahead of time. They bring the coin with them, and those that ask for it are given the coin. Those people get the number off of the coin, and give it back to the owner. Back at home, the event is logged and the coin is taken out and immediately replaced by the people that asked for it. Then the owner of the coin takes the coin out of the event before archiving.

 

Is this against the rules? I read all of the posts above, and I couldn't really tell, since it's a real coin, at a real event, but the people took the coin for only a few minutes, and replaced it. Sorry if it's a stupid question... I just wanted to be clear on that point, because I have a coin that I considered doing that with, although obviously I won't if it's not allowed.

 

It's a common practice

 

(although I wished it worked as well as you layed it out. ;) )

Edited by BlueDeuce
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AFAIK it's not against any rule or guideline, but the practice of logging coins at events is not in the spirit of geocaching - IMHO.

 

I did do this once, but then looked at the array of icons thus gained and thought;

 

1) which were the icons that I was "awarded" by seeking out caches in the field and actually finding the coins? I couldn't tell the difference between those, and the ones I'd simply glanced at and been given the numbers for.

 

2) was I very satisfied with this impressive-looking icon gallery? No.

 

...so I deleted all the logs from the cache event, and I prefer the small but "genuine" list I have now.

 

I must emphasise that this is only my personal opinion, and I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do likewise. I do think that it's time that event caches become something other than caches, though (I'm sure that's a real can of worms...).

 

HH

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AFAIK it's not against any rule or guideline, but the practice of logging coins at events is not in the spirit of geocaching - IMHO.

 

I did do this once, but then looked at the array of icons thus gained and thought;

 

1) which were the icons that I was "awarded" by seeking out caches in the field and actually finding the coins? I couldn't tell the difference between those, and the ones I'd simply glanced at and been given the numbers for.

 

2) was I very satisfied with this impressive-looking icon gallery? No.

 

...so I deleted all the logs from the cache event, and I prefer the small but "genuine" list I have now.

 

I must emphasise that this is only my personal opinion, and I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do likewise. I do think that it's time that event caches become something other than caches, though (I'm sure that's a real can of worms...).

 

HH

 

When I was first being taught about geocaching by my Dad, he did the same thing. When logging my first caches in the computer, he opened an envelope and pulled out some coins. I thought he was giving them to me. So I logged them. But then, he put them all back in his bag and said he is going to grab them back from me -- and showed me how I had these icons. It was weird cuz it was my Dad and he was excited about everything, but I did not feel like I deserved those Icons. BTW -- if there is a way to remove them, I might want to make that request. But that is a tough call being from my Dad and all -- please let me know none-the-less.

 

This event, along with a guy logging a cache that wasn't there while I was fixing it one day (see Rockclimbing Felines GCHMEG) made me angry and I wanted to protest. But I calmed down and finaly posted:

 

"Ahh, but somehow I feel like I am acting like a Sci-Fi geek arguing if the characters of Star Wars are more realistic than those of Star Trek. Who cares right? As long as we are having fun."

 

And let it go. Different people play this game different ways.

 

MAYBE -- people could sign up for specific ethics levels and have that kind of a logo in their geo-name. Like finders say they only log what they find. While traders say they log trades. (no pun intended) And Icon whores can say that is what it is all about for them. Numbers folks - like Ventura Kids which is an army of people trying to make crazy numbers can be listed as a team. Etc..... It would be a way to compare apples to apples, and I think that might even bring about interesting statistics on what people like about geocaching!

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MAYBE -- people could sign up for specific ethics levels and have that kind of a logo in their geo-name. Like finders say they only log what they find. While traders say they log trades. (no pun intended) And Icon whores can say that is what it is all about for them. Numbers folks - like Ventura Kids which is an army of people trying to make crazy numbers can be listed as a team. Etc..... It would be a way to compare apples to apples, and I think that might even bring about interesting statistics on what people like about geocaching!

 

Ooh, I could have some fun with this!

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But this was to give other geocachers a bonus, remember those. A little something extra for people that find micro's all the time and nothing to take out or the ability to put anything in. The only thing to do is sign log, this gives them a little extra for the find.

Your motive behind allowing loggings of the virtual traveler isn't the issue.

 

The issue is that logs related to travelers are supposed to be related to movement of the travelers. Your geocoin isn't moving.

 

And it might not have any movement per say, if I were just to take it with me to show to others at geoevents or when I happen upon another geocacher out geocaching. So if this was the case then it wouldn't overload the system because it's not really moving and require tracking, it's getting logged by geocachers right?

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Okay, quick related question, just to specify...

 

Someone plans on attending a CITO event, for example, and drops a coin at the event ahead of time. They bring the coin with them, and those that ask for it are given the coin. Those people get the number off of the coin, and give it back to the owner. Back at home, the event is logged and the coin is taken out and immediately replaced by the people that asked for it. Then the owner of the coin takes the coin out of the event before archiving.

 

Is this against the rules? I read all of the posts above, and I couldn't really tell, since it's a real coin, at a real event, but the people took the coin for only a few minutes, and replaced it. Sorry if it's a stupid question... I just wanted to be clear on that point, because I have a coin that I considered doing that with, although obviously I won't if it's not allowed.

 

It's a common practice

 

(although I wished it worked as well as you layed it out. :( )

 

But from many of the posts I have read your not supposed to do even this, because it wasn't found in a cache and moved onto another. It didn't MOVE, so may unwritten rules so little time and understanding of what they are supposed to be? :(

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MAYBE -- people could sign up for specific ethics levels and have that kind of a logo in their geo-name. Like finders say they only log what they find. While traders say they log trades. (no pun intended) And Icon whores can say that is what it is all about for them. Numbers folks - like Ventura Kids which is an army of people trying to make crazy numbers can be listed as a team. Etc..... It would be a way to compare apples to apples, and I think that might even bring about interesting statistics on what people like about geocaching!

 

Yes I agree that we should all have the ability to play the game as we want as long as no one gets hurt or it doesn't damage the server hosting our game. I don't think of myself as a "WHORE" but I do enjoy the icons on my trackable page. Going to geoevents I got introduced into logging other geocacher's coins and I thought this was cool and still do. But now I am being told by the "TRUE" geocachers that this is "MORALLY" against what geocachers should do. Now I think about it, and you know what sorry I don't feel bad about it!

I feel that it isn't hurting anyone, I enjoy it and that's that! And I think it's okay to do the same for others, if I want to share my coin with others and they want to log it then fine, if they are "purists" and don't want to that is fine too!

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