Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 5
2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

It's "official"

Recommended Posts

Four Leaf Clover - Has anyone compiled a list of the participants?

 

that way, if some one notices their name is left off the list, they can chime in.

 

Yes, the Sign-Up Thread is the "Official List". So, if your name (post) is there saying that you are in the running, you are included.

 

AstroD-Team/Katrina has a spreadsheet with everyone on it and she will post the list of everyone the first week sometime.

 

You will then be able to verify that your name is there and if by some fluke you are missed...all you need do is tell us or Katrina, what # Post you are on the Sign-Up thread and it can be righted.

 

Hope this way is OK with everyone...just make sure you have posted in the "SIGN UP HERE!" thread and you are definitely in the running!

 

Shirley~

Share this post


Link to post

I would like a clarification. Is the oldest surviving benchmark elegible for bonus points or does the destruction of the oldest monumented benchmark in the county mean you are just out of luck?

 

Since I live in a county on the Gulf of Mexico, the oldest monumented was destroyed by "erosion." (probably a hurricane)

Share this post


Link to post

I would like a clarification. Is the oldest surviving benchmark elegible for bonus points or does the destruction of the oldest monumented benchmark in the county mean you are just out of luck?

 

Since I live in a county on the Gulf of Mexico, the oldest monumented was destroyed by "erosion." (probably a hurricane)

 

The answer lies within the set rules for the County Bonus --

 

It's time to reveal the mysterious bonus that will help you stay in the running for the benchmark contest.

 

To collect your 10 point bonus just find the oldest benchmark in the county!

 

The restrictions are as follows -

Only ONE bonus per contestant!

You must FIND the oldest benchmark as defined by the monument date. A "Did Not Find" will not be accepted!

If there is more than one for the oldest date, then any one of them with that date will count.

If they have all been destroyed, then you must choose another county and try again.

It does not matter what type of benchmark is the oldest, Just so it is the oldest monumentation for that county.

You may not have previously found the benchmark.

If the oldest benchmark is one that would normally qualify for the contest then of course the scoring would apply as well, meaning the oldest could be worth UP TO 18 points. That's 10 pts for being the oldest + 8pts (4 pts for pre-1900 X 2 for first recovery). If the oldest is an intersection station then it will be worth just the 10 Points for the bonus.

 

The part that I highlighted by color and bold text is the part you need to re-read. Hopefully there are other marks the same age. If not and the mark is destroyed, you will then need to choose another county - any county - and search for the oldest in that area.

 

We have either found the ones in the counties surrounding us or they are destroyed. We will have to try for one in a faraway county, on our vacation at the end of April. I think we might have to go to NV/California to get this bonus! Wow, am I glad that GSAK can hold a lot of counties!

 

So, what is everyone else going to do on their vacation this year? B)

 

Shirley~

Share this post


Link to post

I just tallied up the States that are represented by the contestants. There are 26 States ranging from the far reaches of Vermont and as far southeast as Georgia to the northwest of Alaska and the furthest western State of Hawaii! We should be able to cover the entire country, don't ya think? B)

 

Shirley~

 

PS; if you would like a breakdown of the states to know where you should go on vacation...just ask.

Share this post


Link to post

I would like a clarification. Is the oldest surviving benchmark elegible for bonus points or does the destruction of the oldest monumented benchmark in the county mean you are just out of luck?

 

Since I live in a county on the Gulf of Mexico, the oldest monumented was destroyed by "erosion." (probably a hurricane)

 

The answer lies within the set rules for the County Bonus --

 

It's time to reveal the mysterious bonus that will help you stay in the running for the benchmark contest.

 

To collect your 10 point bonus just find the oldest benchmark in the county!

 

...

 

If they have all been destroyed, then you must choose another county and try again.

 

...

 

 

The part that I highlighted by color and bold text is the part you need to re-read. Hopefully there are other marks the same age. If not and the mark is destroyed, you will then need to choose another county - any county - and search for the oldest in that area.

 

...

 

Shirley~

 

OK. I was always clear on this but now you have prompted another question:

 

Does "destroyed" mean you went there and it was gone (presumed destroyed) or do you mean it is "officially" marked as destroyed in the NGS database?

 

I ask because I don't usually download and look at "officially destroyed" marks (although I have occasionally looked at them) and they're not listed on the GC site anyway.

 

So how will we know if the oldest one we find in the download is not preceded but some older but "officially destroyed" mark? Will we have to include the "officially destroyed" marks in our downloads when researching this information?

 

Thanks

Pb

Share this post


Link to post

I would like a clarification. Is the oldest surviving benchmark elegible for bonus points or does the destruction of the oldest monumented benchmark in the county mean you are just out of luck?

 

Since I live in a county on the Gulf of Mexico, the oldest monumented was destroyed by "erosion." (probably a hurricane)

 

The answer lies within the set rules for the County Bonus --

 

It's time to reveal the mysterious bonus that will help you stay in the running for the benchmark contest.

 

To collect your 10 point bonus just find the oldest benchmark in the county!

 

...

 

If they have all been destroyed, then you must choose another county and try again.

 

...

 

 

The part that I highlighted by color and bold text is the part you need to re-read. Hopefully there are other marks the same age. If not and the mark is destroyed, you will then need to choose another county - any county - and search for the oldest in that area.

 

...

 

Shirley~

 

OK. I was always clear on this but now you have prompted another question:

 

Does "destroyed" mean you went there and it was gone (presumed destroyed) or do you mean it is "officially" marked as destroyed in the NGS database?

 

I ask because I don't usually download and look at "officially destroyed" marks (although I have occasionally looked at them) and they're not listed on the GC site anyway.

 

So how will we know if the oldest one we find in the download is not preceded but some older but "officially destroyed" mark? Will we have to include the "officially destroyed" marks in our downloads when researching this information?

 

Thanks

Pb

 

If you get the current County download from the NGS and it shows the oldest as being monument in XXXX and you go look for it and can not find it, you do Not get the bonus.

 

If you check the current county download and it says it was monumented in XXXX and in a subsequent "Official" log it is listed as presumed destroyed, the only way to know for sure would be to look for it (and spend all that time on a "wild goose chase" unless it was a log by the Power Squadron!).

 

The current county download will be what we use to determine if the mark is the oldest.

 

Hope this clarifies things,

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
OK. I was always clear on this but now you have prompted another question:

 

Does "destroyed" mean you went there and it was gone (presumed destroyed) or do you mean it is "officially" marked as destroyed in the NGS database?

 

I ask because I don't usually download and look at "officially destroyed" marks (although I have occasionally looked at them) and they're not listed on the GC site anyway.

 

So how will we know if the oldest one we find in the download is not preceded but some older but "officially destroyed" mark? Will we have to include the "officially destroyed" marks in our downloads when researching this information?

 

Thanks

Pb

 

If you get the current County download from the NGS and it shows the oldest as being monument in XXXX and you go look for it and can not find it, you do Not get the bonus.

 

If you check the current county download and it says it was monumented in XXXX and in a subsequent "Official" log it is listed as presumed destroyed, the only way to know for sure would be to look for it (and spend all that time on a "wild goose chase" unless it was a log by the Power Squadron!).

 

The current county download will be what we use to determine if the mark is the oldest.

 

Hope this clarifies things,

 

John

 

Thank you. Just to be sure what was there, I just did a county download of a nearby county and it does not include "officially destroyed" marks. So what ever is the earliest mark there, that is it. (And for that particular county I can log it as a no brainer.)

 

So technically the ones you referred as "destroyed" in your rules are "not found, presumed destroyed" in NGS logging parlance.

 

Regards

Pb

Share this post


Link to post

Rats!

 

I don't hang out in the forums much anymore, and didn't hear about this contest until about an hour ago. I missed the cut-off :)

Share this post


Link to post

Contestants, Please note that this benchmark HO0154 is an example of a "not first to recover".

 

Rule 5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" (other than the monumentation log.) logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages.

 

Thank you,

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Sorry I didn't get on this weekend to sign up. If it's not too late, count me in.

 

Thanks,

gsparky

Share this post


Link to post

First to recover question...

 

Looking at some of the ones that were noted in the "log your finds" thread there is some discrepancies in the "first to recover" information.

 

I thought I understood that first to recover meant that the finder was the first one to find it since the very first orginal note (the monumentation) -- you would not be counted as the first to recover if others agencies (Power Squadrons, etc) had found it even thouhg you were the first geocacher/benchmarker to find it and log it. Am I correct?

 

See these as examples:

 

Is this a "first to recover"?

 

Had things to do today but found time to search BM here they are

LK0142/1926/y/n

AB4822/1948/y/n

 

OR is this a "first to recover'?

 

Not much time to hunt today, I was working a bike race right in Superior. One of these marks was literally 20ft from the start/finish line and the other only 500m away.

 

DU0470 / 1935 / Yes / No

 

Thanks for your help!

Share this post


Link to post

First to recover question...

 

Looking at some of the ones that were noted in the "log your finds" thread there is some discrepancies in the "first to recover" information.

 

I thought I understood that first to recover meant that the finder was the first one to find it since the very first orginal note (the monumentation) -- you would not be counted as the first to recover if others agencies (Power Squadrons, etc) had found it even thouhg you were the first geocacher/benchmarker to find it and log it. Am I correct?

 

See these as examples:

 

Is this a "first to recover"?

 

Had things to do today but found time to search BM here they are

LK0142/1926/y/n

AB4822/1948/y/n

 

OR is this a "first to recover'?

 

Not much time to hunt today, I was working a bike race right in Superior. One of these marks was literally 20ft from the start/finish line and the other only 500m away.

 

DU0470 / 1935 / Yes / No

 

Thanks for your help!

 

 

dirtfinder did Not have 'first to recover' and has been notified, as was the scorekeeper. He just did not go back and edit his post in the thread.

 

Wildearth 2001 does have the 'first to recover' and got the 2X for that score.

 

We have PMed or E-mailed the contestants when we saw they made a missteak. We also PM the scorekeeper with what we feel is the correct scoring.

 

We will continue to verify all posts in the "Official Logging" thread.

 

So, Beware, you too may get a PM from "John" :blink:;)

 

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

I thought I understood that first to recover meant that the finder was the first one to find it since the very first orginal note (the monumentation) -- you would not be counted as the first to recover if others agencies (Power Squadrons, etc) had found it even thouhg you were the first geocacher/benchmarker to find it and log it. Am I correct?

 

 

So what I understood was correct?

 

No so much worried about the score but more about my knowledge...

Share this post


Link to post

I thought I understood that first to recover meant that the finder was the first one to find it since the very first orginal note (the monumentation) -- you would not be counted as the first to recover if others agencies (Power Squadrons, etc) had found it even thouhg you were the first geocacher/benchmarker to find it and log it. Am I correct?

 

 

So what I understood was correct?

 

No so much worried about the score but more about my knowledge...

 

As posted above in this thread -

 

Contestants, Please note that this benchmark HO0154 is an example of a "not first to recover".

 

Rule 5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" (other than the monumentation log.) logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages.

 

Yes you are correct.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

O.K. so I have a newbie to the contest question...

 

Why are reference benchmarks not allowed when they have their own PID designation?

Share this post


Link to post
Why are reference benchmarks not allowed when they have their own PID designation?

 

I thought they were? Provided they are also in the GC.com database.

Edited by Airmapper

Share this post


Link to post

O.K. so I have a newbie to the contest question...

 

Why are reference benchmarks not allowed when they have their own PID designation?

 

Woody_K, can you give us the PID# of the one you are in question about?

 

When we check the contest posts we look at the benchmark page and see what is supposed to be stamped on the disk for the "station" mark.

 

Or in one case the station mark was the remaining stem of the disk and it had an "X" cut into the top of the stem. If the finder had not found the stem with the "X" it would not have been a proper find.

 

If the Reference Marks have their own PID# and benchmark page, then they will count as a seperate find.

 

Hopes this clears things up for you.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

O.K. so I have a newbie to the contest question...

 

Why are reference benchmarks not allowed when they have their own PID designation?

 

Woody_K, can you give us the PID# of the one you are in question about?

 

When we check the contest posts we look at the benchmark page and see what is supposed to be stamped on the disk for the "station" mark.

 

Or in one case the station mark was the remaining stem of the disk and it had an "X" cut into the top of the stem. If the finder had not found the stem with the "X" it would not have been a proper find.

 

If the Reference Marks have their own PID# and benchmark page, then they will count as a seperate find.

 

Hopes this clears things up for you.

 

John

 

Well no!! LOL! It was the two you had ask me to withdraw from the contest because there are reference marks. You mentioned the arrows on them but they also had their own GC.com page.

 

EV3187 and EV3195.

 

EDIT***** Sorry I did figure out that I DID NOT find them and I did indeed find the reference marks.

Edited by Woody_K

Share this post


Link to post

It looks to me like your entry for EV3195 is no good, because the page refers to GROUSE, not GROUSE No. 1 which is what your picture is of. You should be looking for a disk that simply says GROUSE 1950. The fact that there is an arrow makes it a reference marker. Since the station marker projects 6 inches, it shouldn't be real hard to find if you just walk in the direction of the arrow.

 

From the description:

STATION, STAMPED GROUSE 1950, PROJECTS 6 INCHES. REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 IS 26 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE CENTER OF SERPENTINE DRIVE, 54 FEET NORTHEAST OF POWER POLE (3547 CWT), ABOUT 2 FEET HIGHER THAN THE STATION AND NEAR THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF. THE MARK, STAMPED GROUSE NO 1 1950, PROJECTS 6 INCHES.

 

The other one, although it appears from the name GROUSE 2 that it is a reference mark, it isn't, it's actually a mark named GROUSE 2 presumably since GROUSE 1 was already used. The fact that the marker has an arrow means that it is a reference mark and the arrow points towards the station that it references.

 

If this is incorrect, please somebody correct me. I'm very new to benchmarking as well and this stuff can be very confusing for us beginners.

Edited by rhelt100

Share this post


Link to post

It looks to me like your entry for EV3195 is no good, because the page refers to GROUSE, not GROUSE No. 1 which is what your picture is of. You should be looking for a disk that simply says GROUSE 1950. The fact that there is an arrow makes it a reference marker. Since the station marker projects 6 inches, it shouldn't be real hard to find if you just walk in the direction of the arrow.

 

From the description:

STATION, STAMPED GROUSE 1950, PROJECTS 6 INCHES. REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 IS 26 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE CENTER OF SERPENTINE DRIVE, 54 FEET NORTHEAST OF POWER POLE (3547 CWT), ABOUT 2 FEET HIGHER THAN THE STATION AND NEAR THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF. THE MARK, STAMPED GROUSE NO 1 1950, PROJECTS 6 INCHES.

 

The other one, although it appears from the name GROUSE 2 that it is a reference mark, it isn't, it's actually a mark named GROUSE 2 presumably since GROUSE 1 was already used. The fact that the marker has an arrow means that it is a reference mark and the arrow points towards the station that it references.

 

If this is incorrect, please somebody correct me. I'm very new to benchmarking as well and this stuff can be very confusing for us beginners.

 

 

No I do believe you are right. I did find the reference marks mentioned but not the BM stated on the page.

 

Jeez you are right this is quite confusing. Oh well back to the drawing board.

 

Thanks for your input.

Share this post


Link to post

Woody,

 

For EV3187 - Grouse 2 The description reads as follows -- "THE STATION MARK, A STANDARD DISK STAMPED GROUSE 2 1958, IS SET IN THE TOP OF A CONCRETE CYLINDER WHICH PROJECTS 5 INCHES ABOVE THE GROUND." and further down it reads -- "REFERENCE MARK 1, A STANDARD DISK STAMPED GROUSE NO 1 1950, IS SET IN THE TOP OF A SQUARE CONCRETE BLOCK WHICH PROJECTS 7 INCHES ABOVE THE GROUND".

 

Your picture shows a square concrete monument not a cylinder. The disk has an arrow on it indicating it is a reference mark.

 

The PID# is for Grouse 2 which will have a triangle in the center of the disk.

 

 

For EV3195 The station is stamped 'Grouse 1950'. Your picture has a disk that is stamped 'Grouse NO 1 1950'. It too has the arrow indicating it is a reference mark and does not have the triangle that designates the "triangulation station mark"

 

If the PID# was for the reference mark then the designation on the benchmark page would have specified which RM was the station disk. It would have read ---Designation: GROUSE RM1---

 

Hope this clears things up for you.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Actually it all makes sense.

 

I read through the NGS descriptions of both of those and they state that the Refererece mark stamped "GROUSE No. 1 1950" was established as a reference mark for GROUSE and was again used as a reference mark for station GROUSE 2. So when they put in GROUSE 2 in 1958, they reused the nearby Reference mark that was already there.

 

Now if you look at the 1958 recovery log of GROUSE by CGS:

RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1958 (WFM) THE UNDERGROUND STATION MARK AND REFERENCE MARK 1 WERE RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION. THE SURFACE STATION MARK AND REFERENCE MARK 2 WERE FOUND LYING ATOP THE GROUND. THE UNDERGROUND MARK WAS CLOSE TO THE EDGE OF A BANK AND IN DANGER OF BEING MOVED DURING STREET CONSTRUCTION, SO GROUSE 2 WAS ESTABLISHED IN THE NEAR VICINITY AND THE UNDERGROUND MARK WAS DESTROYED.

 

You will see GROUSE 2 replaced GROUSE which was "LYING ATOP THE GROUND".

 

The 1962 recovery appears to be bogus, even though it was by CGS.

 

Normally when there is an XXX and an XXX 2, the original mark is gone and the XXX 2 replaced it. Sometimes they say XXX RESET, sometimes they add a number. Soo ... if you go back and search for the station mark(s) you are likely to find GROUSE 2 but not GROUSE - unless it's still lying there on the ground after 48 years :anibad: .

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

Share this post


Link to post

...just to add to the confusion with Reference Marks - the arrows don't always point to the mark. I've found some as far as 90° off and 2 that were 180°. Also - sketching out the locations/distances on paper ahead of time helps once you get there....

Share this post


Link to post

John,

 

Sorry to have you look up those but thanks for your help. I now know why reference marks are not used.

 

Papa-bear,

 

I think you are right because the description does lead me to where I found that mark. So for the sake of arugument, Grouse 2 was a reset and is the mark on the page...it still wouldn't qualify if it was reset in 1962. Thanks for your info.

 

Ernmark....Grouse 2 doesn't point to the station. The other photo of Grouse 1 does BTW.

 

I sure hope I didn't give anybody a headache!!! LOL!

 

I appreciate all the info from you guys. I am here to have fun and learning is part of the fun. So far I have had a blast except the rain washed out my afterwork searching today. On my Mapsource I still have 1080 to look for before I need to do a search of another zip code.

 

Ken

Share this post


Link to post

For those that are new to GC forums, there is a link in the upper right corner of the forums that says "X New Messages".

 

This is the Personal Messenger / PMs that you might wish to check occasionally for the "Dreaded PM from John!".

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

What about when there is an obvious error for the date in the database:

 

JY1768

JY1763

 

Both are lsited as monumented in 1800 by GRW AERIAL SURVEY. I suspect there were very few aerial surveys done in 1800. Do these count as oldest in the county?

Share this post


Link to post

What about when there is an obvious error for the date in the database:

 

JY1768

JY1763

 

Both are lsited as monumented in 1800 by GRW AERIAL SURVEY. I suspect there were very few aerial surveys done in 1800. Do these count as oldest in the county?

 

That is a very good question. I googled GRW Aerial surveys and got this...

 

GRW is a full-service engineering, architectural, planning and digital mapping firm. The company was founded in 1964 by Mr. G. Reynolds Watkins to provide engineering services to federal, state, municipal and private industry clients.

 

If that means anything at all. John is at work right now and will be home sometime around 12:30 to 1:30 P.M. I am sorry if you were going to go out right now to find them.

 

Maybe someone else has some input on these marks as to if they are actually from 1800 or not? Maybe they are from 1800 and GRW just does the survey to adjust them?

 

One way to tell, maybe, would be to go find the benchmark and see what is stamped on it?

 

John will add his 2 cents when he gets home....

 

Shirley~

Share this post


Link to post

What about when there is an obvious error for the date in the database:

 

JY1768

JY1763

 

Both are lsited as monumented in 1800 by GRW AERIAL SURVEY. I suspect there were very few aerial surveys done in 1800. Do these count as oldest in the county?

 

JY1763 is most likely a 1935 monument of "1024 Azimuth Mark". JY1141 is relatively close by and it is "1024" also monumented in 1935. So JY1763 is without a doubt an error on the datasheet and not from 1800. Finding the Benchmark will confirm that it is a disk and therefore not old enough to qualify for the oldest.

 

JY1768 could very well be from 1800. Even though the datasheet says "Aerial Survey", that part would be in error.

 

If it is a "Boundary Marker" it will be something on the order of Granite or Limestone that has been cut and dressed and carved letters probably on the top surface. Only by finding the benchmark can you determine if the date is actually from the 1800 period. My guess is "It will probably be a stone marker and qualify for the oldest.". We will need to see a good picture to verify this mark.

 

This could get interesting....

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Just letting the contestants know that starting this weekend, we will start rejecting those finds that have pictures that are too bad to use for verifying the finds. If we can NOT read the disk, then we will have to list the mark as a NOT Found, until a better picture is provided!

 

We suggest using corn starch to bring out the lettering and numbers.

 

Take the picture at an angle instead of straight on to reduce the glare.

 

Most digital cameras allow you to view the picture just taken, so you can verify that the mark can be read/identified.

 

As long as the benchmark can be identified, we will be happy.

If not, then expect the "Dreaded PM from John".

 

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Could someone look at this benchmark description and my log/pictures and tell me if it was placed in 1991 or in 1927?

 

HB1843

 

The earliest date in the desctiption is 1991 . . . yet the bottom center has 1927 (with 1991 on the left side).

 

Thanks!

 

JohnTee

 

adadc994-23e3-47e3-aec0-d1656ea20ffe.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

Could someone look at this benchmark description and my log/pictures and tell me if it was placed in 1991 or in 1927?

 

HB1843

 

The earliest date in the desctiption is 1991 . . . yet the bottom center has 1927 (with 1991 on the left side).

 

Thanks!

 

JohnTee

 

adadc994-23e3-47e3-aec0-d1656ea20ffe.jpg

 

John, What you have found is a marker set by another agency in 1927, but not accepted by the NGS until 1991. We have found several GLO marks that were stamped in the 19teens and "Monumented" until the mid 50's.

 

So that mark is 'officially' monumented in 1991.

 

For HB1738 you need to find the disk & not a "snake in the grass"! :unsure::huh:

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

 

John, What you have found is a marker set by another agency in 1927, but not accepted by the NGS until 1991. We have found several GLO marks that were stamped in the 19teens and "Monumented" until the mid 50's.

 

So that mark is 'officially' monumented in 1991.

 

For HB1738 you need to find the disk & not a "snake in the grass"! :huh::laughing:

 

John

 

Sigh . . . it's nothing but work, work, work and nothing to show for it! :anibad:

 

JohnTee

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not sure I'm properly understanding FTRs. I've noticed several entries in the finds posting page that are tagged YES in the FTR field, but don't look like FTRs to me. So, take the following example:

 

(Please don't be offended Ernmark, I'm not trying to single you out or anything, yours was just the last posting...)

 

KW2082/1952/Y/N

KW2082

 

Unknown by USGS (MONUMENTED)

1/1/1952 by CGS (GOOD)DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1952 5.5 MI SW FROM MOUNT HOLLY SPRINGS. 5.5 MILES SOUTHWEST ALONG THE READING COMPANY RAILWAY FROM MOUNT HOLLY SPRINGS, CUMBERLAND COUNTY, 98 FEET NORTHEAST OF MOORS MILL STATION, 2.8 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE SOUTHEAST RAIL OF THE EAST BOUND TRACK, AND IN THE BASE OF A WATERSTAND. A U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY STANDARD DISK, STAMPED 587.

 

I've found a couple of marks with descriptions exactly like this and didn't post them as FTRs because there are two find logs. One for monumentation and one good. Am i misinterpreting the rules as too strict or??

Share this post


Link to post

Rule #3:

3) For those benchmarks that have "UNK" as the monument date, either the date on the (CGS, USGS, NGS) disk, or if other than a disk the 1st "Official Log" will be considered the monument date. This is to keep the paperwork to a minimum for our scorekeeper. Only the benchmark pages on GC.com will be used, even though they are several years old.

Share this post


Link to post
Rule #3:

3) For those benchmarks that have "UNK" as the monument date, either the date on the (CGS, USGS, NGS) disk, or if other than a disk the 1st "Official Log" will be considered the monument date. This is to keep the paperwork to a minimum for our scorekeeper. Only the benchmark pages on GC.com will be used, even though they are several years old.

 

I know that the date, in cases like this, is determined by the first dated log, but I understood that this would still nullify an FTR since the disk had been officially recovered. This was just an example though, there are also several logs that are marked as FTR, yet when you look at the description page there are often three or four finds that follow the description, just no GC.com user find. I assume that these are being filtered out in PMs, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not being too strict on myself (and screwing myself out of points.)

 

"Rule 5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" (other than the monumentation log.) logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages."

 

It would seem to me that there is certainly a recovery "other than the monumentation log." But, it's kind of a gray area depending on how you interpret the rule you posted above.

Edited by rhelt100

Share this post


Link to post

Could someone look at this benchmark description and my log/pictures and tell me if it was placed in 1991 or in 1927?

 

HB1843

 

The earliest date in the desctiption is 1991 . . . yet the bottom center has 1927 (with 1991 on the left side).

 

Thanks!

 

JohnTee

 

adadc994-23e3-47e3-aec0-d1656ea20ffe.jpg

 

John,

 

What you have found is a boundary marker for what is an intersection point upon some other unknown boundary, possibly a mineral survey; but was not monumented in 1927. It was monumented in 1991 by Missouri Land Surveyor 1927 (LS 1927). It is located in T31N R14E and is Monument No. 2 upon this boundary.

 

Regards,

CallawayMT

Share this post


Link to post

..regarding KW2082 - this is the first USGS disk I've run into in the area with any stamping other than elevation - I think this one may have actually been reset in 1952, but I can't find any other info on it.. It doesn't matter to me if it's a FTF or not - I'm trying to play by the rules, but I'm not in it for the points - I'm just trying to keep myself motivated to keep looking...as the weather warms up, there's more demands on time...and the more marks you find, the farther you have to go.....I did see the solution in another thread - retire! Hmmmm... <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Rule #3:

3) For those benchmarks that have "UNK" as the monument date, either the date on the (CGS, USGS, NGS) disk, or if other than a disk the 1st "Official Log" will be considered the monument date. This is to keep the paperwork to a minimum for our scorekeeper. Only the benchmark pages on GC.com will be used, even though they are several years old.

 

I know that the date, in cases like this, is determined by the first dated log, but I understood that this would still nullify an FTR since the disk had been officially recovered. This was just an example though, there are also several logs that are marked as FTR, yet when you look at the description page there are often three or four finds that follow the description, just no GC.com user find. I assume that these are being filtered out in PMs, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not being too strict on myself (and screwing myself out of points.)

 

"Rule 5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" (other than the monumentation log.) logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages."

 

It would seem to me that there is certainly a recovery "other than the monumentation log." But, it's kind of a gray area depending on how you interpret the rule you posted above.

Actually I don't think the NGS log is a recovery. At least in my area, many old marks were around and were used by municipal agencies, local surveyors, etc. and in the 50s the C&GS came along and resurveyed them and added them in. So although the original monumentation date was UNK, the date the feds resurveyed is more relavent. It was more of a reset than a recovery.

 

As far as the rules go, that's up to the rule makers to interpret them. I've logged a few of these myself ( see KU1150 or KU1156, both old chiseled squares) as FTF and it made sense to me, but either way I don't care that much.

 

And as far as Ernmark's KW2082 is concerned, the disk in his photo is clearly marked "RESET" and "1952", so his FTF is unassailable.

 

Pb

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

Share this post


Link to post
I did see the solution in another thread - retire! Hmmmm... :mad:

 

I like that idea...but I doubt my wife would go for it :mad:

Share this post


Link to post

...speaking of wives - mine thinks I've totally lost my senses. So I started reporting recoveries to the NGS - I told her "Now I'm doing this for the greater good" - she whacked me on the head w/ a wooden spoon...well not really - I ducked! :mad:

Share this post


Link to post
Rule #3:

3) For those benchmarks that have "UNK" as the monument date, either the date on the (CGS, USGS, NGS) disk, or if other than a disk the 1st "Official Log" will be considered the monument date. This is to keep the paperwork to a minimum for our scorekeeper. Only the benchmark pages on GC.com will be used, even though they are several years old.

 

I know that the date, in cases like this, is determined by the first dated log, but I understood that this would still nullify an FTR since the disk had been officially recovered. This was just an example though, there are also several logs that are marked as FTR, yet when you look at the description page there are often three or four finds that follow the description, just no GC.com user find. I assume that these are being filtered out in PMs, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not being too strict on myself (and screwing myself out of points.)

 

"Rule 5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" (other than the monumentation log.) logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages."

 

It would seem to me that there is certainly a recovery "other than the monumentation log." But, it's kind of a gray area depending on how you interpret the rule you posted above.

 

I think Post #10 answered that question:

As a side note - the first official recovery log is usually considered the monumentation log and not really a recovery log, per se.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks a lot, Dolphin...Now I'm really confused :mad:

 

I'm new to the BM game, take it easy on me :mad:

Share this post


Link to post

I need a ruling here- Can I claim a first-to-find for NB0852 since it was recovered on the same day it was monumented?

Share this post


Link to post

Technical note to Photobuff:

Playing with GSAK & the State Spreadsheets, I noticed some time ago that in one of the conversions (GC.com? BMGPX? GSAK?) a year without an actual date was defaulted to 1/1/YYYY. I.E. Jan 1 of the year in question. I didn't see the actual day / month dates on the NGS datasheet (maybe I missed them?), so that may be what happened - both dates were sometime in 1942. Maybe. Can't prove or disprove it.

 

BUT - by the contest rules: GC.com is what matters, not the NGS datasheets. GC.com shows 1/1/1942 for both. So would say it is a good recovery. John's opinion may differ..... and his is the one that counts!

Share this post


Link to post

I'm looking for a benchmark that was placed in 1938 and has, thus far, eluded me. I've found the witness post and the benchmark is described as, "AND 3.0 FEET SOUTH OF A WITNESS SIGN. THE STATION IS .2 FOOT SUB-SURFACE." I've found the witness post and probed around in the neighborhood of 3.0 feet south and .2 foot sub-surface without luck. May need to borrow a metal finder. The area is wooded and vined; lots of roots in the ground to work around. This SHOULD be less than 3" sub-surface . . . right?

 

What I HAVE found is, "REFERENCE MARK NO. 2 IS WEST OF STATION, 117.0 FEET WEST-NORTHWEST OF 18 INCH CATALPA TREE WITH BLAZE, 47.7 FEET SOUTHWEST FROM 30 INCH OAK TREE, AND 181.5 FEET WEST OF WITNESS SIGN." This is a concrete block, with a brass plate, "REF 2" and an arrow pointing toward the benchmark. The distance agreed with the distance I have in my GPS to the BM and the location of the witness post.

 

I have yet to find, "REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 IS NORTH-NORTHEAST OF STATION, 160.7 FEET NORTHEAST OF 14 INCH BOX ELDER TREE WITH BLAZE AND 110.0 FEET NORTH-NORTHEAST OF WITNESS SIGN."

 

1. Does this, and any other reference mark count as a find for this BM?

2. Do finds of each of the reference marks count as individual finds, as they are not referenced on GC.com?

3. Is a reference mark a 'first to recover'?

 

I know it's out there . . .

 

JohnTee

 

DCP_5530t.jpg

Edited by JohnTee

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not sure I'm properly understanding FTRs. I've noticed several entries in the finds posting page that are tagged YES in the FTR field, but don't look like FTRs to me. So, take the following example:

 

(Please don't be offended Ernmark, I'm not trying to single you out or anything, yours was just the last posting...)

 

KW2082/1952/Y/N

KW2082

 

Unknown by USGS (MONUMENTED)

1/1/1952 by CGS (GOOD)DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1952 5.5 MI SW FROM MOUNT HOLLY SPRINGS. 5.5 MILES SOUTHWEST ALONG THE READING COMPANY RAILWAY FROM MOUNT HOLLY SPRINGS, CUMBERLAND COUNTY, 98 FEET NORTHEAST OF MOORS MILL STATION, 2.8 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE SOUTHEAST RAIL OF THE EAST BOUND TRACK, AND IN THE BASE OF A WATERSTAND. A U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY STANDARD DISK, STAMPED 587.

 

I've found a couple of marks with descriptions exactly like this and didn't post them as FTRs because there are two find logs. One for monumentation and one good. Am i misinterpreting the rules as too strict or??

 

Rhelt100,

 

Thanks for waiting while we were on vacation recovering about 100 points worth of benchmarks.

 

Harry gave the correct answer...If the monument has no date then the date on the (NGS, CGS, etc.) benchmark is what counts as the monument date. If there is no disk as in a drill hole the the first Official log with a date becomes the "Default" monument date.

 

When we see one that is posted in the "Official Logging Thread" that is not right, we (That means John!) sends a dreaded PM to inform the logger what the problem is and how to correct it. We also send a note to the scorekeeper to wait for a correction before allowing the find. Due to the short time allotted for editing, most posts do not get edited and/or corrected, (I even had to send the dreaded PM to Shirley for one of HER finds that the scorekeeper did not allow!).

 

John

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 5

×