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===sgb

Initial Impressions

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After an initial look atthe Waymarking website, I feel it is distinctly lacking. In particular the ability to search for waymarks near to where you are. I tried typing in a UK post code and it rejected it - this works on the geocaching website.

 

The individual waymarks do not appear to have a link to "other waymarks near this one" as geocaching has.

 

I did manage to get a list of all the waymarks in the UK - at present only a bit over 100 of them. However there is no obvious general location given. OK many of the individual titles have a big town or county in the title, but what about things like "Gorse Hill" - that could be anywhere.

 

===sgb

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see other discussion where jeremy posted:

 

 

Jeremy Posted: Sep 8 2005, 09:22 AM

 

workin' on it

 

Posts: 7,027

Joined: 1-June 00

 

The idea is to mark locations, not find them. Find a theme, go find it and mark it.

 

other postings

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Nice catch. Bootron and I discussed it and he's using an older query to get postal code data. We'll adjust it so UK postal codes work.

 

The current game is really to find waymarks and enter them in, not seek out existing waymarks and log them. You'll be disappointed if you're looking for local waymarks since it is a beta and not really a POI database - at least currently. Once there is a larger collection the nearest search will be a lot more useful.

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I agree with you there. I keep searching on my postal code and those of all the major cities in my state, hoping somebody will enter some for me to visit, but it ain't going to happen unless people like me put something in the database. The whole concept hasn't reached critical mass yet to become self-sustaining like geocaching.

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I guess I am missing the point of it. I stared at the site hard this evening and I admit it has a certain surreal quality. As there aren't any waypoints near me I picked a catagory at random- local airports I think it was called. And yes that is exactly what was listed! Lots and lots of randomly selected local airports... with the latitude and longitude... and some nice pictures. I could go and list my local airport I suppose... and then there would be an extra one on the list. :rolleyes:

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You probably missed the point of locationless caches then. That's exactly what you were doing - finding some themed item and posting the coordinates. If that isn't your cup of tea then I doubt Waymarking will be either.

 

Of course randomly clicking on airports is kind of boring too. I'm more interested in odd museums or places to pick berries. But that's just me.

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i think it is great to 'restart' the locationless caches.

 

and it also alows me to 'find' my own marks as well as visit others. instead of me having to find one in my area that is not visited and not being able to really say anything about the already logged ones. (what if my grandfather drove the tank in question back in the war? bet that would be a nice log.)

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The current game is really to find waymarks and enter them in, not seek out existing waymarks and log them. You'll be disappointed if you're looking for local waymarks since it is a beta and not really a POI database - at least currently. Once there is a larger collection the nearest search will be a lot more useful.

I think there is a decent chance the the POI database angle may end up being the tail that wags the dog.

 

I do think that some locationless caches were pure game ("find three red things in a row and log a haiku about it!") but many were being used as a shared interest location database: speed traps, drive-in movie theaters, botannical gardens, etc.

 

On GC, normal cache listing and finding are both games. The input on Waymarking.com may also be a nominal game but the output has the potential to be truly useful beyond the gameplay.

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The input on Waymarking.com may also be a nominal game but the output has the potential to be truly useful beyond the gameplay.

that it is. and is the key to luring 'muggles' into the 'gps' world.

 

Waymarking opens 'caching' to those that are not able to, and expands the 'caching world' as we know it.

 

and, eventually, you will be able to find whatever you like--tanks, bot gardens, watertowers, McDs, firetrucks, waterfalls, faded ads, murals, living statues, and payphones that accept incoming calls, to name a few--wherever you are [going].

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I'm still obviously adrift here. Most of the replies above "from those in the know" appear to be emphasising the creation of waymarks meeting some category as the thing the site is about. I still think that newbies will be more interested in finding things others think interesting in their neighbourhood.

 

I imaging someone typing in a postcode and discovering that there are a cycle shop, a local airport, a statue of a sheep, a ... all nearby - and maybe they didn't know about the ... so they can go and see it and be happy.

 

===sgb

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I'm still obviously adrift here. Most of the replies above "from those in the know" appear to be emphasising the creation of waymarks meeting some category as the thing the site is about. I still think that newbies will be more interested in finding things others think interesting in their neighbourhood.

 

I imaging someone typing in a postcode and discovering that there are a cycle shop, a local airport, a statue of a sheep, a ... all nearby - and maybe they didn't know about the ... so they can go and see it and be happy.

 

===sgb

You're right, the reason the site will eventually be exciting to new people is for your listed reasons. However, we have to collect the information first...that's the phase we're in right now.

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I just checked out the site myself and I hope it gets better. Right now about all we have is take your picture in front of every McDonalds in a 10 mile radius. I'm gonna get started seeing if I can post up some better POI's but I'm wondering about areas that already have Geocaches located at them. Are we gonna be double dipping on these or are we trying to stay away from them.

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Right now about all we have is take your picture in front of every McDonalds in a 10 mile radius.

Hah. Weird, that, since McDonalds normally doesn't even come up in searches since the popularity filter drops them off of the listing. I'll make a noble attempt not to tune you out for that dated remark.

 

I'm gonna get started seeing if I can post up some better POI's but I'm wondering about areas that already have Geocaches located at them. Are we gonna be double dipping on these or are we trying to stay away from them.

 

There seems to be some serious issues with geocachers and Waymarking. I certainly hope that there are GPS users out there who will look at this in a different light and quit comparing it to geocaching.

 

There seems to be some real confusion about the fact that a trail shelter, berry picking location, christmas light display or independent music store is not a cache. "Double dipping" is when you take a chip, take a bite, and stick it back in the dip. What does this have to do with marking a disney benchmark and finding a nearby cache?

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I agree with Jeremy that we should not be mixing apples and oranges. While there are some similarities with geocaching (like being able to log a visit to a waypoint), it's a different animal. We would do well to let the Groundspeak gurus do their thing and minimize the bellyaching or at least make it constructive.

 

I am getting comfortable with the site after searching and posting and logging. It operates differently from geocaching.com and there are probably some user functions that could be laid out better or be clearer. Overall, I like the site and am looking forward to formal launch.

 

For those complaining that there are no waymarks near them, you can select any appropriate category, find something local that matches and log it in. Easy. I managed to find 16 in about 10 days in a ten mile radius of my home and I don’t live in a big city.

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I didn't love the idea of locationless caches in GC because I didn't think of them as real caches. Now that they are in Waymarking I much prefer them. I see GC and WM as apples and oranges - I like both fruit but not mixed together.

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Locationless caches never really interested me for some reason. But the way the Waymarking site works I can see myself using it more and more as it starts to fill up with info. So far I like it.

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Right now its too limited in scope and content for me to be able to get any sense of Waymarking.com's usability.. Most of the categories seem to assume that you live in the US and a lot of us don't so its hard to find a category to do.

 

Still don't warm to the interface either. The geocaching.com is wonerfully simple and by that simplicity gives you more information more easily than the Waymarking interface.

 

JDandDD

Edited by JDandDD

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Right now its too limited in scope and content for me to be able to get any sense of Waymarking.com's usability.. Most of the categories seem to assume that you live in the US and a lot of us don't so its hard to find a category to do.

 

Still don't warm to the interface either.

 

JDandDD

contrary to this thought are the numerous categories that are not located in the US. (Benchmarks, Yellow Arrow Signs, and Automobile Association Signs), and the fact that most of the categories are very broad (payphones, McDs, various statue types, ghost signs, fire houses, airports, etc).

 

Waymarking makes you examine your environment more that you ever have. as i ride around i am getting more 'categories' in my head to look for. supposedly we only have one week (Jan 1, 2006) until it is 'open season'. then it is going to be so incredably difficult to keep up with all the categories.

 

along with this 'open season' comes a interface update. this is not geocaching, it should not operate the same. if you read the forums you will see that there are many complaints, but many kudos.

 

i think that this is a great substitution for locatonless caches. it is like you can log a visit to someone else's lacationless find--intstead of it just getting lost in the many locationless cache logs.

 

just biding my time.........

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The only thing I know of that is happening Jan 1st is that locationless caches get archived. The "open season" for categories takes place MAYBE in January. That could be the 1st or 31st. No one has said that I know of. Since most of the categories being allowed are either not applicable to my area, or of zero interest to me (like payphones), it is like having the locationless moratorium all over again. Hopefully "open season" happens soon.

Edited by Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking

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Jeremy Posted on Dec 21 2005, 11:28 AM

There seems to be some serious issues with geocachers and Waymarking. I certainly hope that there are GPS users out there who will look at this in a different light and quit comparing it to geocaching.

I have no interest in geocaching. I'm primarily a benchmark hunter but Waymarking appeals to me as well, and not just the benchmark part of it. They are 3 separate concepts/activities. What I see in common between benchmark hunting and Waymarking is that both are concerned with the locations of real-world items that have purposes besides a hide-and-seek scenario. I like the idea of being involved in the process of indexing real-world items by type, description, and coordinates.

 

The roll-out will happen. Programming often takes unpredictable amounts of time, etc. I think the open season can't reasonably happen without the team management programming being completed, since we have already seen category managers effectively disappear, leaving those interested in Waymarking in their category just hanging indefinitely. Open season in category creation without teams could multiply this problem extremely.

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I like the idea of being involved in the process of indexing real-world items by type, description, and coordinates.
I think the open season can't reasonably happen without the team management programming being completed, since we have already seen category managers effectively disappear, leaving those interested in Waymarking in their category just hanging indefinitely.

 

Hear ye---hear ye---- My sentiments exactly

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I'm an experienced geocacher that started looking at Waymarking a couple of weeks ago. I've logged three waymark finds so far. I created my first two new waymarks today.

 

The biggest gripe I have with Waymarking is that so many of the category owners are insisting on photos to create and/or log waymarks. Why this big obsession to see me next to a waymark?

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I'm an experienced geocacher that started looking at Waymarking a couple of weeks ago.  I've logged three waymark finds so far.  I created my first two new waymarks today.

 

The biggest gripe I have with Waymarking is that so many of the category owners are insisting on photos to create and/or log waymarks.  Why this big obsession to see me next to a waymark?

They still think they're Geocaches?

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To summarise my understanding of the discussion so far:

 

"Waymarking is a functional activity providing locations of things folk may want to find. Geocacheing is a treasure hunt and is different."

 

In which case, why is Geocache disallowing the listing of cacheless caches?

 

If there is an interesting thing in a location, it would be good to list it on GC so folk can go find it. I mean I'm _never_ going to look up on Waymarking to see if there are any scupltures of "farmer and cow" in local park and rides, but if one is listed on geocache and I'm in the vicinity I'll go and look and say thansk to whoever listed it for brightening my day a fraction.

 

If I want a local airport or a bycycle shop, I'll look in the local phone directory...

 

---

 

In other words, I still don't "get" what Waymarking is for or about. It all sounds pointless. I'm not trying to be awkward or objectionable here. Please could someone try to explain in simple terms what Waymarking is for and who would use it, when.

 

Additionally have I misunderstood the geocache "no more cacheless caches" edict?

 

===sgb

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Am I the only one who thinks "cacheless cache" is an oxymoron???

 

:);););)

 

This has been discused ad nauseum so much... a cache is a PHYSICAL (i.e. muggles can pick them up and run away with them) item hidden for other cachers to find and log/trade swag...

 

Waymarks are for objects/locations that do not have a physical log/container...

 

sorry, end of discussion.

 

-UA

 

Happy caching and Waymarking to all

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If I want a local airport or a bycycle shop, I'll look in the local phone directory...
A telephone book can be interesting for those that like names and no action

Wikipedia (see link here) makes interesting reading too and gives you tons of information unlike a telephone bookbut does

I was thinking more of dehydrated water.

'HOT' dehydrated water??? bdw-gal.jpg

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contrary to this thought are the numerous categories that are not located in the US. (Benchmarks, Yellow Arrow Signs, and Automobile Association Signs), and the fact that most of the categories are very broad (payphones, McDs, various statue types, ghost signs, fire houses, airports, etc).

You may be right ChapterHouseInc but most of those things don't interest me in the slightest. Going three blocks from home and finding a McDonald's. Can't say that excites me.

 

History is my interest and there you see mostly things like: Civil Rights Memorials, Irish-American Historic Plaques, Calfornia, Georgia or Pennsylvania Historic Places. Pretty much limited to the US. So, its been hard for me to find anything of interest to me to get into. Part of the problem is the process (lack there of?) of getting categories into the site. Maybe when that improves my interest will be stirred and I am trying to keep an open mind until then.

 

this is not geocaching, it should not operate the same. if you read the forums you will see that there are many complaints, but many kudos

 

Yep, I've seen that and I just happen to be on the complaints side. I am a manager of a corporate system (large operation) and simplicity and useability of interfaces is always a very important consideration for me. The simpler something is the quicker my end users get efficient with the software. Yes its not geocaching and doesn't need to have the same interface but what I was referring to is that when geocaching was designed (and continues to be redesigned) it was made as a very intuitive interface. I just find Waymarking interface to be more visually complicated and less intuitive to use and so don't like it.

 

i think that this is a great substitution for locatonless caches.

 

May well turn out to be that way and obviously it works for you. That's great! And if it brings you the obvious enjoyment that it does then it works. Nothing will work for every one and for me it doesn't work as well and perhaps that says more about my interests than anything. I can say that if I had run into Waymarking and the Waymarking interface when I started geocaching I never would have started geocaching.

 

But I am not making my mind up until the site has had some time out of beta and the category creation issue has been solved. But I hope my input on my reaction to the site can have some positive influence on the beta process.

 

JDandDD

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I have no interest in geocaching.  I'm primarily a benchmark hunter but Waymarking appeals to me as well, and not just the benchmark part of it.  They are 3 separate concepts/activities.  What I see in common between benchmark hunting and Waymarking is that both are concerned with the locations of real-world items that have purposes besides a hide-and-seek scenario.  I like the idea of being involved in the process of indexing real-world items by type, description, and coordinates.

 

Ditto.

 

The biggest problem I see with Waymarking at this point is that it is semi-incorporated into the geocaching site. And hence the confusion on some cachers' parts that it is simply an offshoot of geocaching in some way/shape/form. IMO, it is an entirely separate concept that *potentially* could dwarf geocaching....by leaps and bounds.

 

I could see photographers wanting to post waymarks of images they've taken (someone already is trying to accumulate locations of shots Ansel Adams took). I could see architects wanting to post waymarks of important buildings (or building styles....maybe all 'Art Deco' style buildings). I could see Historical Societies posting waymarks of important historical sites (even if only a record of sites that may be about to become 'developed' so there is some historical record). Yada, yada, Yoda.

 

IMO, the best thing Groundspeak could do for both geocaching and Waymarking is completely divorce the sites/activities as soon as is operationally practical. The concept for the origination and initial development of Waymarking may have come from locationless geocaches, but that's about where things end as well. A year from now, I would suspect the primary users of Waymarking.com would be a largely separate and distinct group from those at geocaching.com. A good many geocachers seemingly have little interest in locationless caches ('waymarks'), and it's likely many 'waymarkers' will have little interest in caching.

 

To quote Dennis Miller...."Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

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I personally like the idea of Waymarking, even though also, I am not understanding it as well as caching. The Virtual caches appeal to me, because they make you look at something you may not have seen before or taken the time to see. There is one in my area that is purely local history. Another is in a place I drive by often, and never really knew it was as extensive in "things to do" as it is...

 

If Waymarking is "marking the coordinates of interesting things to see, do or in which to participate", then I shall have MANY from our town and local area. We have had famous western bandits, many strong cultural events and just a few celebrities, and a lot of these I was not really aware of until History-buff Hubby brought them to my attention!

 

I would like to see the search for adding a waymark be more "technologically-challenged-friendly", if possible, kind of like the way you can catagorize something for sale on eBay. That to me would be easier to filter out where exactly something is to go...of course I don't know how much work the whole thing is, it is way over MY head! ;) I have merely started my own simple website and I am frustrated...so...

I AM extremely grateful for the site as it sits!

{this place reserved for smilie of bowing and scraping happy face}

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Let me start off by admitting: I'm a total stat whore. A big drive for me is getting that find total up, and getting as many icons in my user stats as I can. I did my first locationless a few weeks ago to get a new icon for my user stats and then I saw that the locationless caches were going to be archived. The push was on. I went through all the listings of locationless caches to see which ones I might have a chance at logging before they went away. This past week was real fun rushing to log as many as I could get...and I realized something: There was a real thrill in hunting these things down. The challenge of finding something that fit the requirements was the key...being able to log a location that no one else had found yet. It took planning, even a little research for some.

 

So that's what I'm looking forward to with this website... the challenge of the hunt and being the first to log a waymark (although I like the fact that one can log a visit to an already logged waymark). Of course, what's needed are interesting and challenging categories. Finding firehouses isn't that interesting to me (but it probably won't stop me from logging one). For me, the best locationless caches were those involving coordinate play (e.g. palindromes, quints, times, word-to-coordinate conversion), so it was a natural that my first waymark is in "Coordinate Palindromes". My impression at this point is that there is much promise... but many more interesting categories are needed.

 

..That, and a way to show off our waymark stats. Then I'll be like a pig in mud. :unsure:

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Of course, what's needed are interesting and challenging categories. Finding firehouses isn't that interesting to me (but it probably won't stop me from logging one). For me, the best locationless caches were those involving coordinate play (e.g. palindromes, quints, times, word-to-coordinate conversion), so it was a natural that my first waymark is in "Coordinate Palindromes". My impression at this point is that there is much promise... but many more interesting categories are needed.

Totally agree with this part of your post. That's exactly what's missing at this point, the challenge. Maybe it will come along. Not really stats oriented though.

 

JDandDD

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No matter what happens, it'll be real interesting to dredge this thread up in five years and compare what Waymarking looks like to what everybody thought it'd look like!

 

I enjoy what's here thus far for the collection of more esoteric locations. I don't have much interest in logging McD's locations -- quite the contrary, in fact! (Gee, does that lead to the concept of "reverse virtual caches?" Pop! :D )

 

:D

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How else will they know that you are there and are not "cheating"?

I wasn't aware that this was a competitive sport where one got prizes for racking up waymarks. :) Thus, I wan't aware that one need worry about cheating. :)

 

Whether you visit a waymark physically, or through the internet, does not matter to me. Whether you created a waymark by physically going there, or found the location through the internet, does not matter to me. Your numbers are your numbers, my numbers are my numbers.

 

Enjoy Waymarking and let others worry about meaningless things such as counts.

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its all about the pictures. proove you sent there. document change over time. in five years, hardly any waymark should look like it does to day. it should also be a different visit.

 

TPTB have opened a pandora's box on this one. not everyone can or watnts to hike in the woods to fix a cache, but everyone wants to tell others about, and learn abouth themselves, cool things in their city; and to be able to find them on vacation.

 

in a decade Waymarking can have replaced the phonebook. where ever you are, whatever you are looking for, just search the coords of your location--you can find the nearest {in today's categories}: sushi bar, pay phone, McDs, wireless net connection, historical marker [limited now, but imagine once here is a historical register category to go with the markers], sphinx/insect/or horseman ststue, odd ball museum, masonic lodge, balloon festival, fire station, town clock, independent coffee or record store, mural, living statue, and on and on and on.

 

no wonder tptb are taking their time to open ategory submitting by the public. it seems that they should change all the locationless caches over to WM.com. and owner who dont want to transfer can have theirs allotted to others--i inherited Sphinx statues this way. After these are up and running, they could start with the first category proposed, in the proposal section, making their way to the last. by the time this process has been completed, they should have a more firm grip on what it is they have created. and be able to better manage it.

 

this relates to another post i made about version 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and the like. we are in beta. this is one of the widest beta formats i have ever run across. therefore 1.0 would be the creation of proposed categories and institution of this peer moderation they speak of. then, by the time 2.0 rools out, allowing public category creation--or is that a PM function--the management of the diretory, categories, and waymarks will be 'norm'.

 

it has been said that the site is set up for the creation of waymarks in categories. would the creation of waymarks also not require a searchability to the site. only twice have i teied to post a waymark that was already created. over time this is going to become more and more common. this bight also become a deterrent to Waymarking.

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Took a little time to look in depth.

I just browsed through half of the catagories, and I understand this is still new and being tested and all... "Workin' on it"

 

:lol: Catagory choice is a bit difficult to say the least. Will there be a little more organized method of listing waypoints in the future? Like choosing from an alphabetized catagory list, or like I had thought in an earlier post, sub-directing it in such a way like identifying species or something. (Like catagorizing items on eBay) Where you start out with the basic three (people, place or thing), then work your way down through the description details until you arrive at a catagory that is fairly accurate...

 

If I wanted to share a horse statue, but didn't know there were two, one for people on the horse and one for fiberglass statues, I would search just "horse" and that gave me nothing. Wading through 4 pages, I found by accident the fiberglass catagory.

 

Will this become more streamlined in the future? Otherwise I think I will need a cheat-sheet of catagories to work off of when going anywhere.

 

Thanks! And keep up the great work!

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It seems there are two kinds of waymarkers. The first are the people that peruse the category directory and find categories they find interesting. They then go and find waymarks that fit these categories. I call these "locationless" waymarkers because they are essentially doing what locationless cache finders did. The second group are the people that find an interesting location that they would like to report. Once they have found a location and gotten the coordinates, they have to search the Waymarking directory to find a category where their waymark fits. There may not be any category (yet) for their waymark, and even if there is one, they may need to make a return trip to meet the category's requirements such as providing values for category variables. I call these "virtual" waymarkers because they are using waymarks as a substitute for creating a virtual cache.

 

Waymarking seems to be setup well for the first group but not for the second group. In truth the extra work involved in getting a "virtual" waymark listed, may not be any more difficult than the hurdle of getting a virtual cache approved was, but I suspect that we will hear a lot of whining about it.

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I just ran through a group of things that all along I was contemplating as virtuals. Some of them are historic, but they are just locations in the county, with no real marker. Those I see a catagory for I think. Murals, statues, fountains - all of those are listed. BUT I had to go through each pafe to find them as the pages are not alphabetical. As long as it is only 8 pages of catagories, I can wade through fine. Should it develop however (for example) into 25 pages, it would be easier with a drop-down series of catagorization for placing them. I have a couple of others that I would never have thought of, but they area already in the catagory lists. All I need to do is go and get the pics, info etc...

 

I would like to think that I am not whining, as I have yet to set a waypoint of my own, but rather trying to see how well-organized it will be for a {nit-picky, anal, detail-oriented} person like myself...I like ordered lists... ;)

 

Thanks for the comparison example. I will be a little of both, not to an extreme of either. Safely down the middle... :)

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I think the concept we're dealing with is that a really good indexing method needs to be developed for looking through or searching in all the categories' names. The anticipated 'open season' will make this a critical issue. The current categories will quickly become lost in the flurry of new category names.

Edited by Black Dog Trackers

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Besides a good indexing scheme, there also needs to be a comprehensive category scheme.

 

One problem with categories that I notice is categories with one or two subcategories that only cover a small part of the category. There is no Other subcategory for any waymarks that somebody wants to create in a category that do not fit one of the existig subcategories.

 

But what if you think your waymark is unique, that there are no others like it. It doesn't make sense to go through the category creation process if there is only going to be one entry in the category.

 

Thus an Other subcategory needs to be created to hold all the one-of-a-kind waymarks in the category. When the category owner sees a lot of waymarks in his Other subcategory, he can create subcategories for those that have some commonallity and move them to the new subcategories.

 

This will require that category owners be allowed to create subcategories within his category in a streamlined manner, unlike the present slow process of creating categories.

 

I can see one problem with my proposal that somebody may be able to solve. Namely, how to assign ownership of such newly created subcategories. What if none of the waymark owners whose waymarks get moved out of the Other subcategory to a new subcategory do not want to assume ownership of the new subcategory?

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But what if you think your waymark is unique, that there are no others like it. It doesn't make sense to go through the category creation process if there is only going to be one entry in the category.

 

Thus an Other subcategory needs to be created to hold all the one-of-a-kind waymarks in the category. When the category owner sees a lot of waymarks in his Other subcategory, he can create subcategories for those that have some commonallity and move them to the new subcategories.

as in Athens, GA, there is a 'tree that owns itself' there is no way for me to add this to the plants/trees category--there are no sub categories. if there were a sub category, would it fit into the criteria?

 

this is definately something deserving of a waymark, but has no place to submit it. why could it not be a 'plant/tree' until there is an appropriate sub category to put it in. i do not believe that there is another like it in the world.

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I don't like the way the upper-right navigation works in the 'My Page' section. I think that you should just have all 6 of the buttons there instead of excluding whatever page you're on.

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ChapterhouseInc,

 

If I rememberr a comment of Jeremy in some thread, any category that does not have subcategories can have waymarks added to it. Thus, you should be able to create your unique tree as a waymark into the tree/plants category. If not, then the owner of that category screwed up. What use is a category if it cannot contain either waymarks or subcategories?

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ChapterhouseInc,

 

If I rememberr a comment of Jeremy in some thread, any category that does not have subcategories can have waymarks added to it. Thus, you should be able to create your unique tree as a waymark into the tree/plants category. If not, then the owner of that category screwed up. What use is a category if it cannot contain either waymarks or subcategories?

no, it is so 'high' on the 'tree' that no one owns it yet, nor do i think that anyone owns it--is there a botanist that would be 'head plant guy'?

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