Approved Commercial Caches - What?

June 30, 2005

Yes, I obviously thought it might be touchy .....I said more touchy.....

Support what? That I think it's hypocritical to ban commercial caches outright? I think it is, that is my opinion. It doesn't appear that that is going on.

I'm not entirely sure what looking like nascar would be, but it doesn't sound good.

Clenched fist? Well, my account hasn't been suspended and I never feared it would, so we seem to be on the same page there.

I don't know about TX, but in CA you need to purchase an 'Adventure Pass' to park. 'It's a recreation pass for visitors using the Angeles, Cleveland, Los Padres, and San Bernardino National Forests. The Pass is to be displayed on visitors' vehicles and is available in two forms: a daily pass for $5.00 and an annual pass good for one year from the month of purchase for $30.00.' I gladly paid my $30 for a year (maybe not so gladly).

9.4k · June 30, 2005

I'm not entirely sure what looking like nascar would be, but it doesn't sound good.

I'm surprised no one has photoshopped a cache to look like NASCAR, yet.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

I'm not entirely sure what looking like nascar would be, but it doesn't sound good.

I'm surprised no one has photoshopped a cache to look like NASCAR, yet.

I would, but my hotel room connection seems to be having issues with uploading files, even images.

June 30, 2005

MOPAR,

Sorry you lost me, nobody owns geocaching, geocaching.com yes. You can try and try but I'm not going to see your way of thinking on that. I respect your right to your own opinon and hope you respect mine.

20.7k · June 30, 2005

... nobody owns geocaching, geocaching.com yes. ...

You are absolutely correct. You can have a cache inside your business and require everyone to make a purchase, but it probably won't be listed on GC.com.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

MOPAR,
Sorry you lost me, nobody owns geocaching, geocaching.com yes. You can try and try but I'm not going to see your way of thinking on that. I respect your right to your own opinon and hope you respect mine.

You are correct about who owns what. Thing is, we are talking about caches listed on geocaching.com, not any other listing sites. Other sites may or may may not allow you to create a cache that uses their site for advertising; but this one requires permission from the site owners to do so.

EDIT: What Sbell111 said!

Edited June 30, 2005 by Mopar

June 30, 2005

Well it does seem kind of cheep......

June 30, 2005

When did we start talking about being required to make a purchase or advertising?

The caches referenced specifically did not require purchase. The one in particular that I questioned (the pub in the historic building) didn't even mention the name (not that I recall, but some of the others did).

20.7k · June 30, 2005

Well it does seem kind of cheep......

Note: It turns out that googling 'chicks' is not a good way to get photos of baby chickens.

24.7k · June 30, 2005

You pay a fee to get inside a (Texas) state park to cache don't you? What's the difference in the subject being talked about now? Entry fees, newspapers, etc, it's all the same ~ Indirect costs....

In the case of admission fee's the dividing line is the for profit or non profit status of the park, rec area, campground etc. If the entity that manages the area is non profit, it's generally considered non commercial. If the area is for profit it's generall considered commercial. As Jeremy pointed out, there isn't a hard line, and the distinction has evolved over time to what I just wrote about. Early on Disney caches existed, now they would be commercial, but you could still get them approved if you work out permission.

June 30, 2005

Very interesting, I've been thinking about this alot lately. I have dreams of opening a little coffee shop. In those dreams lately pops up the idea that I could 'host' a cache there. The cache would have various swag plus coupons for free coffee or pastrie, not discounted but free, so no purchase need be made....just a nice coffee/snack break in a day of caching. No commercial gain intended, yet I can see that it may violate some rules or does it?????

So Jeremy.... commercial or not? allowed or not?

Edited June 30, 2005 by teamjack&birdie

June 30, 2005

RK, It's still the same to me, indirect cost. If within reason, I'll pay it to get the cache ~ To locate it! I wouldn't buy a car to get a cache but I'd pay for a cup of coffee or a bottle of water. $3 for entry fees or for a soda is the same $3.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I just don't see the diff if I spend $3 here or there. For a fee or a newspaper. It came from the same pocket, mine's.

Carry on.

20.7k · June 30, 2005

So Jeremy.... commercial or not? allowed or not?

Would you have to enter the coffee shop to log the find?

3k · June 30, 2005

When did we start talking about being required to make a purchase or advertising?
The caches referenced specifically did not require purchase. The one in particular that I questioned (the pub in the historic building) didn't even mention the name (not that I recall, but some of the others did).

In previous similar discussions, one of the 'is this a commercial cache' issues commonly mentioned was the notion of whether or not someone might feel obligated to make a purchase whether or not a purchase was actually required.

Some people feel uncomfortable going into a private establishment and asking for (or seeking) a cache without supporting the establishment by making a purchase.

Caches located outside a store don't generally have that kind of issue, as there is no face-to-face contact with the person behind the counter.

June 30, 2005

Interesting about the interaction part....

Yes inside the store, I think maybe it would be hidden behind a display, in a wooden indian... something like that. Come to think of it, it need not require interaction with the staff at all, something like 'open wooden indian's head to find cache' or 'behind the large sugar jar in container labled *something witty*'

24.7k · June 30, 2005

...So...a cache at a geocachers favorite bar, hidden with permission of the bar owner is ok as long as no purchase or entry fee is required?

This one for example

Salvelinus

Something like that walks the line between the two. It's probably going to depend on how your approver looks at commercial. My only cache inside a building is in a Visitor Center. It's non profit so it wasn't commercial, or at least the issue never came up.

20.7k · June 30, 2005

Yes inside the store, I think maybe it would be hidden behind a display, in a wooden indian... something like that. Come to think of it, it need not require interaction with the staff at all

Many people, including myself, would not be comfortable caching inside a store or restaurant without buying something. Edited June 30, 2005 by sbell111

24.7k · June 30, 2005

Very interesting, I've been thinking about this alot lately. I have dreams of opening a little coffee shop. In those dreams lately pops up the idea that I could 'host' a cache there. The cache would have various swag plus coupons for free coffee or pastrie, not discounted but free, so no purchase need be made....just a nice coffee/snack break in a day of caching. No commercial gain intended, yet I can see that it may violate some rules or does it?????

So Jeremy.... commercial or not? allowed or not?

Commercial, but probably approvable with permission.

3k · June 30, 2005

Very interesting, I've been thinking about this alot lately. I have dreams of opening a little coffee shop. In those dreams lately pops up the idea that I could 'host' a cache there. The cache would have various swag plus coupons for free coffee or pastrie, not discounted but free, so no purchase need be made....just a nice coffee/snack break in a day of caching. No commercial gain intended, yet I can see that it may violate some rules or does it?????

So Jeremy.... commercial or not? allowed or not?

Not being argumentative, but I'm not sure what you hope to gain from asking this type of yes/no question.

Jeremy has already stated:

The spirit of the guideline is to keep from overcommercializing the activity.

Notice the use of the words 'spirit' and 'guideline' and 'overcommercializing'. This speaks to the need for flexibility in approving (or not) caches located in or near a business, so even an answer to this particular hypothetical situation won't give you a definative answer.

There are many shades of grey here, but I think as usual, the approvers seem to be doing a pretty good job of drawing appropriate lines.

June 30, 2005

Commercial, but probably approvable with permission.

Seems reasonable, I think I would enjoy something like that, I guess if it contained coupons for 'discounted' or 'buy a sandwich get a coke' coupons, as a cacher, I might be turned off, thinking its sole purpose was to drum up business vice support/be a part of geocaching. It definitely is not a black and white issue and I'm glad it isn't handled as such.

June 30, 2005

Not being argumentative, but I'm not sure what you hope to gain from asking this type of yes/no question.

What would I be trying to gain? It is a hypothetical question based on this topic. He responded to this topic and he would be the one to answer. LOL, I only ask that he respond in writing in blood and duplicate in stone. Sorry but that was just silly.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

Very interesting, I've been thinking about this alot lately. I have dreams of opening a little coffee shop. In those dreams lately pops up the idea that I could 'host' a cache there. The cache would have various swag plus coupons for free coffee or pastrie, not discounted but free, so no purchase need be made....just a nice coffee/snack break in a day of caching. No commercial gain intended, yet I can see that it may violate some rules or does it?????

So Jeremy.... commercial or not? allowed or not?

The actual guideline we are discussing is here:

Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

Some exceptions can be made. In these rare situations, permission can be given by the Geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.

How do you think you idea for a cache fits in those guidelines?

It's inside a coffee shop, placed by the owner of the coffee shop, and filled with promotions (free products) for the coffee shop.

Do you think the cache directly or indirectly, intentionally or non-intentionally solicits customers?

Is it inside a for profit location?

Does the location sell products or services?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, then you should ask Groundspeak's permission BEFORE submitting the cache page to geocaching.com.

The rules seem pretty clear. I don't see what the debate is.

9.4k · June 30, 2005

There really isn't enough time in the day to go around reviewing hypothetical caches. I'll pass.

20.7k · June 30, 2005

So...a cache at a geocachers favorite bar, hidden with permission of the bar owner is ok as long as no purchase or entry fee is required?

This one for example

Why am I reminded of that cache in the Windsor gentleman's club?

June 30, 2005

You'll pass? Whatever, most discussion is hypothetical. I don't own the fictional coffee shop nor does anyone I know, why not discuss it? You're the one who joined the conversation and now you'll 'pass' ....weak.

And Mopar,

Most here can agree that this topic has many grey areas, hence the 'debate' or discussion.

9.4k · June 30, 2005

You'll pass? Whatever, most discussion is hypothetical. I don't own the fictional coffee shop nor does anyone I know, why not discuss it? You're the one who joined the conversation and now you'll 'pass' ....weak.

Normally I would, but I'm getting the feeling I'd respond and you'd say "no tagbacks" or "I have double super shields under my shirt." There are far too many unknowns in your scenario for it to be a worthwhile discussion.

So yeah. I'm weak. Boo hoo. But realistically I have some projects to work on and this discussion doesn't warrant any more energy. So sorry I can't provides a response for a scenario that doesn't exist.

9.2k · June 30, 2005

If a geocacher placed it and asked permission for whatever their own reason is, it's not commercial.

That's a new one. Have you informed the reviewers yet about this, because I don't think they read it quite that way.

June 30, 2005

I don't even know what you are talking about with the no tagbacks and shirt shields. Thanks tho, this has been informative.

And no need to 'boohoo' it'll be alright.

5.3k · June 30, 2005

Arrrggh.

Arrgggh, arrrggh!

The polite version of what I want to say:

Someone please explain to me how these are NOT commercial caches. Thank you.

(Impolite version censored... not going to give in to the intense urge to whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine like a 3 year old... "why do the SoCal folks get their commercial caches approved but when I do the same thing, I caaaaaan't! Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine...!" etc. because I don't need any offerings of cheese, unless it's some really good Havarti!)

They are not commercial caches because you are not reqiured to pay a fee or buy anything to find them.

I have found a few caches that are in coffee shops or sandwich shops and have never had to pay a fee to find them.

24.7k · July 1, 2005

If a geocacher placed it and asked permission for whatever their own reason is, it's not commercial.

That's a new one. Have you informed the reviewers yet about this, because I don't think they read it quite that way.

That's my own standard. I rather mixed them up a bit in this thread.

July 3, 2005

But realistically I have some projects to work on and this discussion doesn't warrant any more energy. So sorry I can't provides a response for a scenario that doesn't exist.

I am trying to get a real cache approved and found this thread. I'm not trying to make any arguments on either side of the debate. My problem is that my communication with the reveiwer has been poor and I am fairly new to GC.com, so I don't understand everything that I have read. I am hoping I can get some advice (not a ruling) on how to improve my chances of getting this cache approved.

I wanted to place a cache inside a coffee shop that is open 24/7. I have no connection with the shop, I just liked the idea of being able to hide a regular cache in an urban area and this is a particularly nice part of my home town.

I decided to make it a four stage multi to walk cachers around this section. There are no places to put a regular cache here other than inside the coffee shop. So three micros and the regular in the coffee shop seemed like the best idea.

I read the commercial cache explanation, but it clearly says that "Some exceptions can be made". I did not understand the part about "asking first". Nowhere does it talk about the difference between starting the approval process by posting a cache and any other form of contact. In fact, I could not find the "contact address" that my reviewer referred to. So I started by posting the cache and asking for tentative approval. I thought that was the "right" thing. Seems that was wrong. I still can't find the contact address on the web pages.

So my reviewer is taking this up with the other reviewers. I have also written to contact@geocaching.com. But now I have no visibility into the process and I have no idea of what criteria are being evaluated. I don't think I am asking for anything special. I just want to know what is considered to allow or disapprove this type of cache. It would be useful to know why other, simillar caches were approved. My reviewer has not been very forthcoming in explaining how I might get this cache approved. Instead he has tried to get me to drop it and even said he thinks I have commercial motives simply because I have persisted in this.

So what is considered when this decision is made? What can I do to improve my chances of getting this cache approved?

If you want to read about it the cache is Shabby Four GCPDTG.

July 4, 2005

I thought I had asked this as well, but I see I didn't. Now I am at a point where I have posted my cache followed by sending the email to the contact address. I have been told I should have sent the email first. At this point would it be better if I archived the cache and waited for a response on the email? This seems like a silly bureaucratic thing that Groundspeak wouldn't care about, but if they don't care, why does my reviewer keep telling me about it?

What's my best path to get this approved as is?

1.5k · July 8, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

Bigger than huge. It's ginormous.

Well, it started as a hobby, but do you realize how much moorage fees are for the Tatoosh? I have to get my money from somewhere, you know.

Not to mention all the cash nessecery to pay for those Lexus RX's you've crashed trying to get to Eraseeks cache on St Helens!

Next time... PARK at the trailhead and CLIMB up the mountain!

Edited July 8, 2005 by Right Wing Wacko

July 8, 2005

I only spent a buck!

The third one I opened with a crowbar!

I only spent .50

Then why do we have the "$" attribute? What about park fees?

July 8, 2005

They make a distinction between "non profit" fees like parks and commercial fees like concert admission or a restaurant where you have to buy food to stay. I can see the reason behind this. But I think they should try to make the conditions for exceptions a bit more clear. As it stands, the issue is not really whether you have to pay, but rather whether you are inside or out. There are no "rules" for the exceptions. They are made by the seat of the pants on a case by case basis.

Heck, Jeremy even said in this thread that he would approve a cache on a sub where you have to pay admission. I'm not at all clear on why that would not be commercial. I guess the sub owner is making a contribution rather than a profit???

July 8, 2005

Heck, Jeremy even said in this thread that he would approve a cache on a sub where you have to pay admission. I'm not at all clear on why that would not be commercial. I guess the sub owner is making a contribution rather than a profit???

As the owner of the cache aboard the Juliett 484 Soviet Guided Nuclear Missle submarine, I wasn't sure whether or not all of these posts advertising the cache itself violated the commercial guidelines.

Since everyone keeps addressing the cache, I will make it known that the non-profit organization that is tasked with maintaining the Juliett 484 made some specific accommodations for geocachers to help alleviate potential conflicts with the commercial caches policy.

In addition, a cache page policy that prohibits identifying the cache location or providing photographs that might identify the cache location or the non-profit organization helps eliminate the potential for inadvertant commercial advertisement.

This cache took close to a month to set up and it involved constant communication between myself, the non-profit organization's administration, the non-profit organization's support staff, and a small team of geocaching.com volunteer reviewers.

The Juliett 484 is the ONLY Soviet guided nuclear missle submarine known to be in the United States, and it is one of only sixteen in the world. Just seeing one of these would have been a once-in-a-lifetime find, but because the many people involved in the development of this cache, geocachers are able to board the sub and often receive an extended tour if they have sufficient time.

In addition, where the cache container is in plain sight in the Doctor's Quarters in Compartment 2, every muggle that boards the sub is introduced to geocaching.com and to the intrique of puzzle caches. We've managed to assimilate some new cachers as a result.

I think based on the watch list and the finder's reviews, this cache presented an incredible opportunity for geocachers, and I am glad that all of the parties involved worked as diligently as they did for so long in order to arrange this unique opportunity.

20.7k · July 8, 2005

I thought it was approved because its incredibly cool?

Approved Commercial Caches - What?

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