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Turtle3863

A Sad Day In Charlestown State Park, In.

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Now taking the discussion into a more general direction, I (and many others) do assert that public ground is subject to proscription instead of prescription; in order words to a list of "can not" rather than a list of "can." As examples, public lands do not have lists that says "picnics are allowed", "playing frisbee is allowed", "wading the creek is allowed", "bicycle riding is allowed" or even "hunting is allowed."

 

Exactly correct. Sometimes.

Some areas do in fact have lists of approved activities others have list of prohibited activiets, some have both.

 

You have to know the rules of the land in which you wish to play but nearly every public property in Indiana banns carrying things in to the woods and leaving them unless it is specifily exempted.

 

The list of prohibited activities includes carrying items in to the forrest and leaving them. Other than specificly identified activitys on the list. which also identifys items that may be left in the forrest temporarily and also lists the requirements for leaving them there and when they must be removed.

 

For example, treestands must be labled with the owners name, address and be remove at the end of the hunting season and may not be installed prior to hunting season. Allong with a list of several other prohibitions they must meet.

 

Most uses of public land by organised groups for organised activity, it is expected to notify the property manager. As a member of Indiana Bowhunters Association I know this. Use of archery equipment is allowed on most state forrest property and most national forrest property. Most of those propertys have camp grounds or allow camping at large. It is allowed to wander at will and shoot your bow and arrow in a safe manner on those propertys, yet any time the organisation PLANS an IBA sancitioned activity the property manager of the land we wish to use is notified, solicited for advise and permission, and he nearly all ways has "suggestions" for a procedure it would be wise to follow if we want to make use of the property.

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When you recognise this difference and begin seeking permiission instead of asserting a nonexistant right, I suspect you will enjoy a much different expirience with the property managers.

I.e., we need to assert our rights to be able to place caches on public lands.

 

It some how was seeming to me, the inability to place an actual cache pretty much summed up the situation we were addressing here. If that is not the case I'm sorry. I missunderstood the situation.

Wonders where JR got that from reading that post ? :(

 

Most of us want to work with the DNR and the Parks Departments . Just like the Hunters and Fishermen have to work within the structures they set forth .

 

What if they said you couldn't hunt, fish or hike these lands ? How would you feel then ?

 

Star

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

We are just learning to interpret each other's comments. I'll try to do better not to jump to conclusions.

 

I'm sorry, it's a habit developed from posting on several rather more "combative" messege boards.

 

I believer Geo Cachers and hunters have a lot in common and could be a force for good benefit to both, if we co-operate.

Edited by Jack Ryan

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just a few thought's

 

what would happen if say 100+ people submitted a request form to place a cache in said park, every week? (maybe even for the same spot?)

 

I see that a CITO event was held last year, what about sendding them a bill for services rendered by the people who attended?

 

if the parks charge for vehical, and camping spots, what would happen if there was a boycott, pickett line, a peacefull demonstration, fliers, billboards, ect... done.

 

a lot of things can be done, but will anyone do it? will they do it in a way that doesnt cause more friction?

 

one last thought on a new cache.

turn the ranger into a moving geocache (catch the Ranger, photo-op) :unsure: (not kidding, this comes from HAM radio, DF'ing a moving signal) and post the location on where he was last seen/caught.(would that be considered a catch and release program? :huh: )

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I see that a CITO event was held last year, what about sendding them a bill for services rendered by the people who attended?

When we attend a cito event, we go to give back a little to an area we really enjoy. I don't think charging anyone for this service would be right and would take away the spirit of the event. Most of us have jobs where our time could be spent more profitably. Also the company and conversation with other geocachers is a plus.

 

Your boycott idea comes into play here. I am sure, if a CITO event was planned here, there would not be many participants. So the best places are the more friendly ones.

People usually spend their money and spare time were they feel comfortable and welcome. It is clear we are not welcome here.

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NR NEWS

 

Indiana Department of Natural Resources

402 W. Washington St. W255 B

Indianapolis, IN 46204-2748

 

For immediate release: June 1, 2005

 

Charlestown State Park invites public to help "plan the park" June 11

 

State parks and reservoirs staff wouldn't think of opening a new

park without asking Hoosiers what facilities and activities they hope to see

in these unique places. That information, along with surveys of natural and

cultural resources and an understanding of state parks and reservoirs'

mission, is used to create a comprehensive master plan for the new park.

 

Local residents and visitors can provide input into the development

of a comprehensive master plan for Charlestown State Park on Saturday, June

11 at "Planning the Park" Day. The event, held from 9:00 a.m.-3:00 p.m. EDT

(fast time/Louisville time) features hikes, live animals, a park-wide family

"discovery hunt," free hot dogs for lunch while supplies last, giveaways and

a presentation about existing plans for the park. Most events are in the

main picnic area.

 

Park admission for visitors attending the event will be free for the

day.

 

"We are pleased to provide this chance for our neighbors to see the

park, hear our ideas and share their thoughts for the future at

Charlestown," said Indiana Department of Natural Resources Director Kyle

Hupfer.

 

Comments can be offered one-on-one to park staff that day, or

visitors can complete a one-page survey during the event. The visitor survey

will be available at the park gate and office one week prior to the event.

A drawing of completed surveys will be held at 3:00 p.m. on Planning the

Park Day for several gift items, including Clifty Inn Gift Certificates.

 

Special activities include the following:

 

9:00 a.m.-3:00 p.m.

* Charlestown Discovery Hunt. Pick up a discovery hunt checklist and

map and find out what makes this park unique. Each person who completes the

discovery hunt earns a prize.

* Charlestown Herps. Staffs from Clifty Falls State Park are on hand

all day with live snakes and turtles that are found at Charlestown.

* Planning the Park: Your Ideas. Park planner Mike List is available

to answer questions and talk one-on-one with visitors about Charlestown.

* Scout Camp Display. Charlestown Boy Scout Troop 80 creates a

demonstration scout camp and troop project display.

 

9:00 a.m. - noon.

* Southern Indiana Birds of Prey. Staff from the Dwight Chamberlain

Rehab Center at Hardy Lake display hawks and owls that might be seen at the

park.

 

10:00 a.m.

* Charlestown, Naturally. Join Richard Lyons for a hike on Trail 4 to

discover the plants and geology of Charlestown State Park. The hike begins

in the Trail 3 and 4 trailhead parking lot.

 

11:00 a.m.-1:00 p.m.

* Lunch. Free hot dogs, chips and drinks are served by Charlestown Boy

Scout Troop 80.

 

1:00 p.m.

* Planning Charlestown State Park. Park planning staff present an

overview of existing park plans and listen to your ideas for the future.

 

2:00 p.m.

* The Charlestown Story. Join Tom Chapman for a hike on Trail 3 to

learn about the unique history of the area that is now Charlestown State

Park. This hike begins in the Trail 3 and 4 trailhead parking lot.

 

"Planning the Park" day is sponsored by Indiana State Parks and

Reservoirs, Indiana State Park Inns, the Charlestown Chamber of Commerce,

WalMart and Charlestown Boy Scout Troop 80.

 

-30-

 

Reporter contacts: Mike List, park planner (317-232-3348), Ginger Murphy,

chief interpreter (317-232-4143) or Larry Gray, property manager

(812-256-5600), Indiana State Parks and Reservoirs.

 

 

 

 

i was just curious if anyone would be interested in attending this? charlestown state park recently got 2300 (i think) more acres and are looking for ideas to improve on the park. maybe we could show soem support and get them to loosen up a lil on geocaching. i think we all have to admit its an awesome park and i would love for geocaching to come back to this park

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Sounds to me like they are starting to get desperate and are now trying to get someone to visit THEIR park. :rolleyes:

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well, the park is growing and basicly just doubled its size. the parks attendance is very down though. ive been a few times in the past 2-3 weeks and ive never seen more than 5 other cars in the park. its cause honestly theres very little to do at the park. sure theres a few trails, and fishing if you hike to the spots. but thats it. i dont think they get many campers, who wants to camp in a field with no tress around? not me.

 

yes theyre trying to get people to come. do you think theyd try to keep people away? i personally think its a good way to get people to come, get the visitors ideas for things to do. not just throwing out stuff and hoping we like it. their asking for the publics opinion. and we, as the public, and people who would like to enjoy this park as well as attract many far away visitors, should look forward to teh chance at voicing our opinions.

 

ive been thinking on this for a while now. i live 10 minutes from this park, and if no one else admits it, i will and say this is actually a very nice park and it has lots of sites to see. i enjoy coming here fairly often. the trails are nice and the fishing is great in 14 mile creek.

 

but ok, lets look at the situation a lil closer.

 

charlestown state park removed all the geocaches a while back. theyve "allowed" 1 and theres a second still in the park because the rangers probaly cant find it. so theyre not totally saying no to teh sport.

 

what they do seem to not want are geocaches placed in A. in nature preserves or B around historicly sensitive areas. things that are supposed to be against geocaching policy anyways, and for the most part, the caches that were removed are in one or the other.

 

i wish the rose island caches were still around. but does anyone else not see the problem with placing geocaches there? youre attracting people who otherwise wouldnt care to go tramp around in an area that probaly shouldnt be trampled. not to mention on that side of 14 mile creek the parks boundaries are small and many probaly tresspassed on other land without knowledge.

 

a lot of the park is also a nature preserve. or is looking to be designated as in the future.

 

im not taking the parks side on its stance. nor am i taking the full side of us geocachers. i see wrongs on both sides, and its a shame it seems most have totally given up on ever geocaching in this wonderful park again.

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and upon reading this thread again, id like to again bring up some points that have been brought up. maybe i can get you people thinking straight.

 

first off, its said there was more than 50 geocaches in the park at the beginning of 2005. does anyone else not see that as a huge overabundance of them in a park that size? thats overdoing it quite a bit. youre not supposed to place one cause you can. am i the only one who sees the problem with so many? clark state forest is 10 times bigger than this park and probaly doesnt have 50 caches total within its borders. maybe we brought this on ourselves. its all about the numbers!

 

secondly. the indiana geocaching policy was put into effect jan 1, 05. how many charlestown cache owners applied for a permit then? it looks like none. the one or two who did apply for a permit did so only after the caches had been removed, 3 months after the fact. and how many cachers went and removed their caches when they didnt have a permit for their placement? very few, the rangers had to go get most of them. does anyone not see the problem there also?

 

if you really wanna play the sport, you gotta follow the rules, like them or not. there were lots of mistakes made by the cachers. the park is only doing what we left them no choice of doing. if you dont play by the rules, theyre not gonna let you play at all.

 

and finally, i have to wonder at how many people have ACTUALLY voiced their opinions to someone at CSP. im guessing very few. if theer were some honest people who confronted the park with the attitude i have, and if geocachers as a whole would stick to the rules, i very much believe charlestown state park would love to have geocachers in the park.

 

honestly guys i see lots of people in this thread who are complaining of the parks actions but see nothign wrong with their own actions. and its their own actions that have caused charlestown to be so picky about geocaching. i dont blame CSP for removing the caches, no one followed the rules

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StangGuy,

 

From my post earlier in this thread:

I called and talked to Larry Gray at Charlestown SP .......I told him we were thinking of a week-long camping trip to his park given that #1 - his park is listed as one of the "7 Jewels" - undervisited parks with reduced camping fees to encourage folks to come and #2 - the wealth of geocaches in his park......I told him that while I respected his position, I disagreed with it and was going to vote with my camping dollars.

 

Although tree-less campsites are not our first choice, our popup has an awning to create it's own shade and a/c to keep us cool, if necessary. Yes, indeed, Larry Gray's anti-geocaching policy has affected attendance and camping at "his" park, at least in our case.

 

Mrs. Car54

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StangGuy,

 

From my post earlier in this thread:

I called and talked to Larry Gray at Charlestown SP .......I told him we were thinking of a week-long camping trip to his park given that #1 - his park is listed as one of the "7 Jewels" - undervisited parks with reduced camping fees to encourage folks to come and #2 - the wealth of geocaches in his park......I told him that while I respected his position, I disagreed with it and was going to vote with my camping dollars.

 

Although tree-less campsites are not our first choice, our popup has an awning to create it's own shade and a/c to keep us cool, if necessary. Yes, indeed, Larry Gray's anti-geocaching policy has affected attendance and camping at "his" park, at least in our case.

 

Mrs. Car54

thats the problem, i dont think many are understanding that the CSP doesnt nessecarily have an "anti -geocaching" policy. its just being made out to look that way. look at the facts and its clear to see the geocachers left the CSP rangers no other choice but to remove the caches. and since they have allowed 1 since, id say they very much DO NOT have an anti geocaching policy but yet the local cachers have an anti csp policy.

 

if you werent aware, there is a statewide law now saying that any geocache on state property has to have a permit, and only so many geocaches per so many acres are allowed. so to LEGALLY be able to have a cache placed there, there needs to be a permit applied for and received before the cache is ever placed! and in a park the size CSP was at that time, only about 5 caches would be allowed total. caches without a permit were to be removed. that went into affect jan 1, 2005 and it wasnt just sprung on us, there was speak of it in another thread on here long before jan 1. the policy was well known about

 

now, knowing that. lets look at the cold hard facts on the topic. if you read it thoroughly i think youll see my point.

 

there is talk of upwards of 50!!!!!! caches in this rather smallish park before the law went into affect. am i the only one who thinks this is overdoing it some? geocaching policy sates you shouldnt just place a cache cause you can and 50 in this park is very much a bunch of "just cause i can" caches and overdoing it quite a bit IMHO. Clark state forest, 15 miles away. is 10 times the size od CSP and im willing to bet theres not 50 in its boundaries total, and if so, its not much more than that. the park really was overwhelmed with caches.

 

the law went into effect on january 1, 2005. not a single one of those 50 cache placers applied for a permit for their cache. and probaly a cache or two was placed in the park after this date without applying for a permit first. and none of those 50 caches were removed by the owners like they should have been since they had no permit.

 

many of the caches in this park were placed in a nature preserve or on historicly important grounds. both are no-nos of both geocaching.coms policys as well as the indiana state geocaching policy. this shouldnt have been taking place no matter how wonderful the sites may have been.

 

the park put up with this for 3 months and saw that no one was going to take the new policy seriously. everyone kept ignoring the policy. the policy started on jan 1, and the park rangers didnt start enforcing it until the end of march 2005. over 3 months for geocachers to conform to the new indiana state LAW. everyone ignored it for the most part.

 

the geocachers left the park no choice but to remove all geocaches in the park. for gods sake im a geocacher myself and i can understand this very easily. if i were the park ranger, even being a geocacher myself, i wouldve done the same.

 

in the time since, a couple permits have been applied for. one denied because its in a nature preserve which is a LAW, not park policy. 1 of which was ALLOWED! andthen theres another cache placed in the park thats without a permit but the rangers just cant find it! hows that for defying authority

 

youve gotta play by the rules, or dont play. the cache owners had over 3 months to apply for the permits. if you really wanted yours there, you shouldve been applying for it on dec 31 knowing that there would be limited availability. i think everyone has made it clear no one is interested in playing by the rules.

 

how many caches statewide are on state grounds without permits? my guess is litterly thousands. and thats saying very poorly for geocachers as a whole. its openly showing we dont wanna play by the rules and outright defying the LAW.

 

if you park in a no parking zone you get towed. if you drive with no license you get your car taken away. its only common sense that if you place a geocache without a permit, or in a zone not designated for it, that itd be moved. is this hard to understand?

 

by geocotting the place, the geocachers doing it are making themselves look that much more defiant. very outrightly showing that they dont wanna play by the rules and making a bad showing for geocachers everywhere.

 

i think its very clear charelstown state park doesnt have an anti geocaching policy. and to prove so in the next couple weeks i think ill apply for a permit to place one there thats not in a nature preserve or on sensitive grounds inside the park. well see how it goes :o

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and for anyone whos curious heres the pdf of the actual indiana state geocaching policy.

 

http://www.in.gov/dnr/parklake/publication..._Geocaching.pdf

 

it very clearly outlines that this is not a park policy but a state policy. if you want change, geocott the state of indiana! doing 1 park cause they enforced the law wont solve anything.

 

slowly but surely all parks will get tired of the noncompliance and come down. will you geocott them all 1 by 1? and blame it all on them? or do we abide by the rules and show them were responsible adults and work to getting more priveledges for the sport.

 

there are contact addresses of people on the front page of this thread. write your congressman. write the head dnr officers cause this one single park isnt the heart of the problem.

 

and finally, apply for a permit for your caches!

 

if we abided by the rules then wed have room to complain. but right now were sounding like a bunch of teenagers who got run off by the cops for loitering where we shouldnt have been.

 

the park is just enforcing the law. and breaking the law and complaining we dont wanna play by the rules is not going to lead into anything positive.

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StangGuy,

 

I don't want to seem combative, but my statement that CSP is anti-geocaching is based on my personal, one-to-one conversation with the property manager of that park. I am well aware of the DNR's official policy, which leaves the decision up to the discretion of each individual property manager. Some properties are working with geocachers and some are not. At the time I spoke with Mr. Gray, he made it abundantly clear he was in the latter camp. I haven't spoken to him since then so if his outlook has changed since then - great! But you can't just read the DNR policy and say, "There you go! None of the state parks are anti-caching." It absolutely depends on how each park's management administers that policy.

 

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree here. :o

 

Happy Caching,

Mrs. Car54

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will you geocott them all 1 by 1? and blame it all on them?

Let's see. 4 camping trips with our popup so far this year. Summit Lake SP, Shades SP, Prophetstown SP and Harmonie SP. What do these parks have in common? Yeppers - geocaches. As you can plainly see, we are hardly "geocotting" IN state parks. We are simply exercising our rights as consumers to spend our time and our money where we perceive it to be most welcome.

 

I say again, the attitude of the individual park management is key. If my local Wal-Mart starts behaving in a non-customer friendly manner to me, I will stop shopping at that particular Wal-Mart, but will continue to shop at other Wal-Mart stores. I intend to continue spending my money in those parks, whether in this state or others, that allow me to enjoy one of my hobbies. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

 

Btw, many good and experienced cachers (no, I am not including ourselves) have done a lot of good at CSP (can you say CITO?). I think you, too, are painting with a rather broad brush to lay the blame for CSP's attendance problems at their feet, even in part.

 

JMHO

Mrs. Car54

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im not taking anything as combative. a lil debate never hurt anyone. and im never offended by others disagreeing with me. :o

 

i understand also its up to each parks discretion. but only up to a point, you must understand this. on nature preserve land or on sensitive land is not allowed period. whether the indivdual park wants it or not, its not allowed. and only so many caches are allowed per park, no matter what the park wants. the only discretion the individual parks put on it are safety concerns with only indivdual park rangers would know about and are too broad to cover in the law. say near a cliff or a cave.

 

the park hasnt shown any outright anti geocaching policy. like has been said, 1 geocache permit has been approved already. the only other one thats been applied for was denied because it was on a nature preserve. thats not park policy, thats state policy not allowed and geocaching policy not allowed. you cant complain it got denied, it didnt belong there. thats 1/2 and the one denied was a darn good reason.

 

how can you say they have a anti geocaching policy when only 2 permits have been applied for and 1 was approved and the other denied for breaking a state and geocaching.com policy. please show me where the bias is here. i could understand if 20 had been shot down for no reason but its not like that. only 2 have been applied for!

 

can you not see how the local cache owners brought their caches being removed on themselves?

 

they ouright defied the law for almost 4 months and once the law was enforced they ran away not wanting to play by the rules.

 

and no one is trying to show him any different except for the geode hunters. they tried going the legal way and 1 is APPROVED. it was approved! how is that for an anti geocaching policy? and the other was denied because it was in a nature preserve! shouldnt have been placed there anyways so it was denied, big deal.

 

no one complied with the new policy for almost 4 months! the park was litterly overran with geocaches and many were placed on sensitve areas of the park. and no one tried to comply until after the park had enough of it and decide to do something. most just said forget you, i dont wanna play by the rules.

 

i can agree to disagree but i will still voice my view which i think you really need to consider also. anyways, lets look at it your way. the park ranger has something against geocaching and gives us a hard time.

 

now lets look into why this ranger has this grudge against geocaching.

 

perhaps it was the defiancy of all the cache owners in the park after the new state policy was enacted on geocaching?? itd give me a bad taste if everyone just decided to break the law in my park.

 

that policy is no different than any other state law. and very simply put, anyone who didnt comply with it was breaking the law! the policy very clearly stated that any geocache that didnt have a permit was to be removed by the park ranger. its not allowed to be there! this was published long before jan 1, 05 and all cache owners had plenty of time to comply with it before it was inacted. no one did in this one park.

 

its clearly to see the geocachers brought it on themselves. can we agree on this?

 

its like complaining that the park wont let you break a state law. if everyone complied with it, the problem wouldve never been aroused. all teh caches wouldve been legal. but they werent legal. youre blaming the park on upholding the law.

 

like i said ill be applying for a permit in the park here soon and well see just how anti geocaching they are when the rules are all followed. :(

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how can you say they have a anti geocaching policy ....

I'll say it just one more time and then I'm done: I can say that because I spoke personally with the Charlestown State Park property manager and at that time he said he didn't want any geocaches in "his" park. Again, I repeat myself, if he has changed his mind, great!

 

Now I actually have to work for a living. :o

 

Mrs. Car54

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will you geocott them all 1 by 1? and blame it all on them?

Let's see. 4 camping trips with our popup so far this year. Summit Lake SP, Shades SP, Prophetstown SP and Harmonie SP. What do these parks have in common? Yeppers - geocaches. As you can plainly see, we are hardly "geocotting" IN state parks. We are simply exercising our rights as consumers to spend our time and our money where we perceive it to be most welcome.

 

I say again, the attitude of the individual park management is key. If my local Wal-Mart starts behaving in a non-customer friendly manner to me, I will stop shopping at that particular Wal-Mart, but will continue to shop at other Wal-Mart stores. I intend to continue spending my money in those parks, whether in this state or others, that allow me to enjoy one of my hobbies. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

 

Btw, many good and experienced cachers (no, I am not including ourselves) have done a lot of good at CSP (can you say CITO?). I think you, too, are painting with a rather broad brush to lay the blame for CSP's attendance problems at their feet, even in part.

 

JMHO

Mrs. Car54

they didnt remove the caches to be mean. they removed them to comply with state law. and youre boycotting the park because they are upholding indiana state law. and are not seeing how the cache owners brought it all on themselves.

 

and just because a cito was held doesnt give anyone the right to not comply with the law. would you like theives any better if once a year they sold their stealings to make money for the poor? no, theyre still breaking the law.

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how can you say they have a anti geocaching policy ....

I'll say it just one more time and then I'm done: I can say that because I spoke personally with the Charlestown State Park property manager and at that time he said he didn't want any geocaches in "his" park. Again, I repeat myself, if he has changed his mind, great!

 

Now I actually have to work for a living. :o

 

Mrs. Car54

working must be fun :(

 

anyways, ok. so he said he didnt want any geocaching on his property when you spoke to him.

 

if he does feel that way, can you see why he would not want geocaching on his property?

 

the cache owners in the park were irresponsible in not conforming to the state law. and also in overriding a park that size with 50+ caches.

 

if the ranger did have a bad taste for geocaching, the geocachers were the ones to give it to him.

 

and also, if he dont want geocaching at all. hes doing a very good job of upholding that stance by approving 1 of the ONLY 2 permits applied for in the park.

 

it looks more as if "WE" dont want to geocache in "his" park because he wants us to play by the rules

 

its fairly clear to see this didnt happen until the state law was passed. if it was his personal agenda id say it wouldve happened long before the state law. it didnt though, it happened after many defied state law for almost 4 months.

 

theres even a geocache in the park right now that doesnt have a permit. hows that for being super defiant and

 

liek i said though ill be applying for a permit there in a few weeks to try and prove a point. ill follow all the rules and well see just how antigeocaching they are when rules are followed

Edited by StangGuy96gt

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secondly. the indiana geocaching policy was put into effect jan 1, 05. how many charlestown cache owners applied for a permit then? it looks like none. the one or two who did apply for a permit did so only after the caches had been removed, 3 months after the fact. and how many cachers went and removed their caches when they didnt have a permit for their placement? very few, the rangers had to go get most of them. does anyone not see the problem there also?

 

......

 

honestly guys i see lots of people in this thread who are complaining of the parks actions but see nothign wrong with their own actions. and its their own actions that have caused charlestown to be so picky about geocaching. i dont blame CSP for removing the caches, no one followed the rules

We applied for our permits early, as soon as the permit form became available. After a montyh or so, two were given tentative approval. and one of those was ripped out of its hiding spot during the inquisition. (guess it was too close to the trail. Within arms reach while standing on the trail.)

 

Here it is June and the one remaining cache does not have final approval and since there seems to be a boycott on the park., no one has logged a find on it since March.

 

There have been several cachers who have offered assistance. We, Deermark, and Arf have offered to monitor new caches and some of the old ones we tried to keep. During our application proccess, we even offered our help in the development of the new area. Trail building or whatever they needed. There has been at least one CITO event, where several cachers were trying to give back to the park. They apparently no longer want our help.

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they didnt remove the caches to be mean. they removed them to comply with state law. and youre boycotting the park because they are upholding indiana state law. and are not seeing how the cache owners brought it all on themselves.

 

and just because a cito was held doesnt give anyone the right to not comply with the law. would you like theives any better if once a year they sold their stealings to make money for the poor? no, theyre still breaking the law.

if it wasn't mean, why did they remove our other cache on the trail that had the same approval as our other one? Not even a call or email to say it was bothering them. ( phone numbers, emails, and addresses are all included on the permit form.

 

Thieves?? or concerned parties, who were enjoying their park and only too happy to help out.??

 

Good bye.

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NR NEWS

 

Indiana Department of Natural Resources

402 W. Washington St. W255 B

Indianapolis, IN 46204-2748

 

For immediate release: June 1, 2005

 

Charlestown State Park invites public to help "plan the park" June 11

 

Well, I guess Larry has to try to do something to earn his keep. Part of his job is to attract people to the park that don't mind paying fees to use the park. By purposly running off the Geocaching community, I am sure that he took a hit from the finance side of his business. Make no mistake, it is a business. I don't think that he knows that though.

 

I know Larry and have spoken to him on numerous occasions. Just my opinion from talking to him, but he didnt like the idea of folks playing in his park in a manner in which he could not control. His intent was to flex his muscle and show us that he is the guy in charge. Never mind the fact that it was brining additional visitors and revenue to a park that otherwise is not visited very much. This guy is a control freak plain and simple. If people or property were in danger I could buy into your argument. There simply was nothing wrong in this case.

 

You can argue this any way you want to. I know most of the folks involved in both sides of this deal. There is no doubt in my mind about where the problem is.

 

I consider myself a power user of Indiana properties. I spend over $1,500 each year in park user fees. Since I have the right to spend my money in any manner that I see fit, I simply choose to spend it at other properties. The thing that Larry had better worry about now is that if he can't keep the park moving forward and generating revenue he may find himself looking for another job.

 

StangGuy96gt you really are on the wrong side of this issue, however I know that there will be nothing that I could say that would change your mind. Feel free to respond or not as you see fit. I won't be posting anything else on this thread.

 

Hope to see you at the next InKy Geo Social Event! ( GCNZFV )

 

see ya, jeff'

Edited by Camping Hoosiers

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first off, its said there was more than 50 geocaches in the park at the beginning of 2005.

What would you think if they outlawed picnics on holiday weekends because there were just too many people showing up and some folks were throwing grabage on the ground and it was a inconvenience to go around after the holiday and pick up.

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well, its obvious my POV isnt the popular one. and it looks like ive already made enemies before i know anyone because of my opinion. forget i even said anything and tried to bring geocaching back to the park. no one wants to play by the rules. i guess ill just keep the park to myself to enjoy. ill go back to my hole now :)

Edited by StangGuy96gt

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StangGuy said: ... Forget i even said anything and tried to bring geocaching back to the park.

 

If you really want to "bring geocaching back to the park" then why don't you put some caches there. The permit process does work -- I've place two caches in Prophetstown SP via the permits -- but it takes some effort and time. Evidently some of the long time cachers are bummed out by the park and do not wish to expend the time and energy -- that is their perogative. I can not place caches in the park because I live way too far away. But you ... yes you StangGuy ... can put the geocaching back in the park.

 

Please do so so that I have some geocaches to find when I next visit the southern part of the state. Thanks!

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StangGuy said: ... Forget i even said anything and tried to bring geocaching back to the park.

 

If you really want to "bring geocaching back to the park" then why don't you put some caches there. The permit process does work -- I've place two caches in Prophetstown SP via the permits -- but it takes some effort and time. Evidently some of the long time cachers are bummed out by the park and do not wish to expend the time and energy -- that is their perogative. I can not place caches in the park because I live way too far away. But you ... yes you StangGuy ... can put the geocaching back in the park.

 

Please do so so that I have some geocaches to find when I next visit the southern part of the state. Thanks!

:) yes, i do plan on doing so. ill be using a few days in the next couple weeks to scout out some potential spots and find if they meet the rules. i will get a permit for them before i place them. each person has a max of 2 per park so between my girlfriend and I we could bring 4 more back to the park.

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Well, I will add my 2 cents worth. For those of you that do not know, I have contacted an Indiana State Senator that I have worked with in the past on other issues. I explained geocaching to him and gave him many references to the sport. He was concerned about the DNR policy and was going to speak to the head of the DNR to see what he could personally work out. He also said that he is very interested in the preservation of our sport and was going to form an exploritory committee to research geocaching this summer and possilby pass State legislation to help protect it and possilby ammend the DNR policy. He was very concerned as to how much money the State is loosing from the boycot of State parks by geocachers in this matter. I mean let's face it, we were pretty much the only ones that go to some of these parks and we were the ones who helped keep them open and payed the bills.

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well, its obvious my POV isnt the popular one. and it looks like ive already made enemies before i know anyone because of my opinion. forget i even said anything and tried to bring geocaching back to the park. no one wants to play by the rules. i guess ill just keep the park to myself to enjoy. ill go back to my hole now :)

Before Rule #47 everyone was playing by geocaching.com rules after rule#46 we tried their rules. Apparently not every park manager took the route that Larry has and there are caches in other parks. Larry has made his point and there are no approved caches in HIS park. (I am still unclear about tentative approval).

 

It feels about like Turtle's picnic rule. with one exception. The rule would have been passed while you were picnicking, then told to get a permit. and oh yeah we are not going to issue a permit until all the picnickers are gone. so get out. then comes the staff to help you get out.

 

Larry will run HIS park the way he sees fit and that is his job, For any real change the process needs to be taken back to where it started, at the DNR advisory board. It is my understanding that this is the intention. see how it goes and modify when needed.

 

I'm glad Larry is touting his park we too live minutes away, but ultimately he will do it his way and the pr program this weekend is just that. We will spend our time and money in one one the other State Parks. I'll continue to check on the cache, but since no logs to date, don't think there will be much restocking to do.

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well, its obvious my POV isnt the popular one. and it looks like ive already made enemies before i know anyone because of my opinion. forget i even said anything and tried to bring geocaching back to the park. no one wants to play by the rules. i guess ill just keep the park to myself to enjoy. ill go back to my hole now  :)

Everyone's POV is important on this issue. I just feel you might be missing out on a few points. Geocachers were following the geocaching guidelines as far as the caches placed in the park. The areas that caches were placed were not off limits to Hunting and a few other activities so those areas had caches placed as well. Then after the rules were change the caches were just yanked without anyone trying to contact the owners. As to the permit process IN THIS PARK. There have been two applied for and to date one is tentatively approved but not finalized and the other was approved but yanked anyway. Not the way you want to treat welcomed guest. We did not start the permit program, but DNR did and they now need to follow thier own rules and approve or denied the caches in a timely matter. In this park that is not happening and we as a geocaching community feel we are not welcomed in this park, so until we see this attitude change, we will stay away.

 

It might sound ridicules, but how would a person like to have to get a permit for a picnic on a holiday weekend (because a few people littered and they wanted to keep up with where everone was) and after several months the permit has yet to be approved and when it was approved, only 5 were allowed in the park even though there are 200 plus picnic tables in the park and when you get there you are only allowed to picnic within arms length of a picnic table.

 

Do you feel our pain yet? :)

Edited by Turtle3863

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well, personally im done with this thread. its obvious many dont want to geocache at the park, so dont. i personally would like to see it at the park, so i alone will try and place my allowed number of caches at the park. i plan on following all of the states rules on it and well see just how anti geocaching they are to me. if you dont want to go find them just cause of their location its fine with me :D

 

and my final thoughts on it, no i dont really feel your pain. you said rules were followed. no they werent, if rules were followed then as of jan 1st caches that didnt have a permit wouldve been removed. and there would be only 1 cache in the park per 200 acres. and considering none have a permit that means all 50+ gone! the park ranger wouldnt have had to remove if everyone had followed the parks rules. it was only after 3 months of seeing that none of the cache owners in the park were going to get a permit did they remove them.

 

before jan 1 there were no rules to be followed. as of midnight on dec 31 there were rules to be followed and itss been admitted many time that no one applied for permits (except the geode hunters) and theres even a cache there without a permit now. so the rules werent followed, id ont see how everyone says they were.

 

and everyone was well aware of the new law. there was talk of it in this forum long before t was enacted. if you didnt approve of it everyone shouldve voiced their opinion before that at the meetings that were held but im guessing very few of the people complaining ever made an appearance at one.

 

if the rules were being followed. then both the caches in the park would have permits (1 does not) and also the cache there thats placed with a permit would be checked on monthly but since theres a geocott on the place im guessing it hasnt been checked on since march.

 

and the picnicing thing is so off base its not funny. first off lets say those picnicers were picnicing in an off limit area of the park and then leaving behind their picnic basket for next weeks picnic that their buddy would come put on at the same place. and this was happening all over the place and in almost every place except the picnic areas. then it would be comparable.

 

like i said though. im done debating it. i have my view on the situation and im not putting blame on anyone for things done in the past. i just find it upsetting that no one wants to try and rectify it and play by the rules. everyone is being so defiant. judgements are being made on the park as having a antigeocaching policy and theres very little to go on there considering it appears only 3 permits have ever been applied for since teh rule was inacted. i can see if everyone there appleid for permits and all rejected but only 3 were applied for out of 50.

 

i hope no one has any hard feelings against me for having the exact opposite view on this topic as everyone else has. i was only trying to help :)

Edited by StangGuy96gt

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before jan 1 there were no rules to be followed.

Before Jan 1 the below link will tell you what rules were followed. They are quite extensive.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

And I will save you the time to tell you I am sure there were a few that were placed in gray areas. So is the nature of being human, We are not all perfect hence my earlyer comment about someone throwing trash down in the park. It does not make sence to throw everone out because of a few.

Edited by Turtle3863

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i plan on following all of the states rules on it and well see just how anti geocaching they are to me.

In closing, I wish you all the best in this endeavor and hope you fair better than others. Hopefully things will change at this park and we can all enjoy it together.

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StangGuy says: ... so I alone will try and place my allowed number of caches at the park...

 

Best of luck! Let us know when the caches are placed. I may even make a special trip down south just to find them.

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StangGuy:

 

Why do you keep saying over and OVER that there were 50 caches in the park? I count 25, two of which are still there and 23 that have been archived. Where did you come up with 50???

 

If you and your girlfriend place four caches in the park I will hunt them next time I am in that area. But I certainly would never travel all that way just to do six caches. My family was planning to camp at Charlestown State Park this summer because there were too many caches to do in a day trip. Now there aren't even enough to justify a day trip. As Car54 said, we will spend our camping dollars elsewhere.

 

AND . . . I wrote to Larry Gray and told him so, in just as nice a manner as I could manage.

 

*Daphne*

Mysteries Inc.

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StangGuy:

 

Why do you keep saying over and OVER that there were 50 caches in the park? I count 25, two of which are still there and 23 that have been archived. Where did you come up with 50???

 

That was probably my fault. When I first started this thread I used that number. I was just stressing that there was a good number of caches that were going to be gone and I never sat down and counted them.

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I believe my last count was somewhere around 45,, 46 ? They were all well placed and no one area was over run. The park , especially with the introduction of the new 2700 acres, could hold more. There were easy caches, puzzle caches, clever caches, strenuous caches. A little something for every one and very few had done them all. Different stroke you know.

 

I really don't think the reduction in the amount of caches is the issue or the limit on two caches per person. I even think the one year limit is fine. it would give us a chance to hunt and log more each year. The problem is how this park manager chose to handle it. My favorite word here is inquisition.

 

i don't have a count of how many cachers are in Indiana and Kentucky. The GC.com site says there are over 21000 registered users. The stats page I watch, says there are 6700 cachers with over 200 finds. There are 100 each in IN and KY with over 200 finds. I would think these active users would eventually find themselves in the parks. Then add the visitors and power cachers who are visiting. Then all the new cachers looking for familiar places to hunt their first cache. That's a lot of lost revenue.

 

Too bad.

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Well, Shaggy just pointed out my error to me (I knew he would if I posted a note here). I see what I was doing wrong now. I'm sure Turtle and Geode Hunter are more familiar with the park than I am, so I will take their word on how many caches got pulled.

 

Thanks everyone for setting the record straight!

 

*Daphne*

Mysteries Inc.

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One question for Stangguy. The new Geocaching policy went into effect Jan. 1, 2005. There were 50+ caches in the park. How were the owners of the caches suppose to know of this new policy? I wasn't notified and I don't usually read the forums. I would have gladly removed the caches myself if only I would have known of the policy.

 

Let me relate a little story to you. Early April of last year when I was looking for a park to have a CITO in I contacted Larry Gray about a having the CITO there. He was very open to this idea. The park supplied the garbage bags and we supplied the labor. It was a very good tradeoff. At this time I asked Larry if he knew of the caches in the park. He did but saw to harm in them. I told him that I would make sure that the caches were maintained, which I did. I also told him that I would personally take care of any concerns that he had about Geocaches in his park. I told him I would contact the owners of any caches he dissapproved of. He gave me the impression that the caches were fine and he saw no harm in them. I also talked to Larry the day before our CITO and reinterated that I would take care of any problems brought on by our caches. He again voiced no concern. Both times that I talked to Larry I gave him my home and cell numbers so he could reach me. Not once did he call to ask that the caches be removed nor did he e-mail any cache owners to let them know of the new rules.

 

Charlestown State Park is under-funded and under-staffed. So why did Larry use his overworked staff to remove the caches when I would have done it on my own time? I never did understand this. Why did Larry remove the caches and still not contact me or the cache owners? I got a call from a fellow cacher that all the caches were gone. I called Larry and he said that his staffers had removed the caches. I then volunteered to removed all the Rose Island Caches. He agreed to this. Personally I don't think that anyone on his staff could have make the trek out and back to find these. He told me then that most of the Rose Island area was a nature preserve and that alot of the area along Fourteen Mile Creek was also protected. He also said that this was not a well known fact and it hadn't been publicized. There again the question is, "If we are not told how are we to know."

 

The point I am trying to make while I am rambling on is that I was never notified of the new rule nor the plan to remove the caches. I am also sure that no other cache owners were notified either. Larry's point is that we should have removed them. My point is that I can not read his mind.

 

True there were 50+ caches in the park but I would have challenged anyone to find one without a GPS. Most of the hides were quality and none of the caches intruded on the surrounding area. I think Larry has shot himself in the foot. When your park has but one drawing card and you throw that card away you must face the fact that attendance will drop drastically.

 

Yes there is one of the old caches left in the park. I am sure that the rangers could not find this one to remove it. Kind of funny isn't it.

 

I will never again hunt any caches placed in this park. I do love the park and will return often to hike and yes I will still bushwack. I will continue to go to Rose Island and enjoy this pristine area. But you will never know of my presence there. I will leave no trace and I will pack out any garbage I find there. This area is surrounded by private property but it is very simple to to stay on park property if you want to. I have been hiking this park for years. It is a shame that the normal hiker will only see a very small portion of this park.

 

The Geocachers that place caches in Charlestown State Park were all concerned cachers and the park will be worse off without us. I guarantee this.

 

Deermark

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One question for Stangguy. The new Geocaching policy went into effect Jan. 1, 2005. There were 50+ caches in the park. How were the owners of the caches suppose to know of this new policy? I wasn't notified and I don't usually read the forums. I would have gladly removed the caches myself if only I would have known of the policy.

 

well i really dont wanna discuss this anymore. i dont want to step on anyones toes anymore before i even know anyone. i already feel as if many are upset with me on my opinion. when i brought this topic back up i had nothing but good intentions and had i known it would cause such a rucuss i wouldnt have said anything about this weekends activities. im truely sorry for saying anything at all at this point.

 

as to answer your question. its the players job to stay up on the rules of the game. its not the states job to go find every geocacher in teh state and notify them of the new regulations. its the individuals job to keep up on teh rules of activities youre involved in. and even if you dont frequent the forum im sure you heard about it one way or another from a fellow cacher. but even if not, its not the parks fault. ignorance is not an excuse. just cause i dont see a speed limit sign and dont know the speed limit doesnt mean theres no speed limit.

 

and out of all the cache owners at the park im sure plenty did know about it even if you did not personally. and the geode hunters were the only ones who did apply for the permits. im sure that didnt show very well to the park rangers as to the responsability of the cache owners. you didnt contact them to get a permit to place your cache, why should they contact you when they remoevd it?

 

and yea i guess it is funny the park rangers cant find the one cache thats there without a permit. but when everyone says they obeyed the rules and such, its kinda contradicting. and im sure the defiance it shows doesnt make the situation any better. ill admit its funny though :huh:

 

finally, again, im sorry i even brought this up and open up these old wounds. its obvious theres much more bad blood here than i anticipated. its fine that a lot of you have bad feelings about CSP, everyone is entitled to do what they wanna do. i just happen to have a different POV, but big deal right? im not blaming anyone that had caches in the park at the time for what happened. i hope theres no hard feelings toward me cause theres no hard feelings for any of you from me! i had nothing but the best of intentions. i enjoy geocaching and would hate to get a bad name with the local cachers over something stupid like this :huh:

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Just wanted to add my contribution here--as both a geocacher and as a local science teacher with degrees in Biology, Geological Sciences, Geosciences, etc (meaning only that I have experience and education in natural sciences).

 

If you do the math, the geocaches in the park amounted to about 1 cache per 48 acres--not exactly what I would call saturation, much less oversaturation.

 

I can verify that the the few caches (about 15) that I found in the park were well distributed, placed responsibly, in areas that would bear traffic well, and not impinging on any fragile ecosystems or rare indigenous plants that I noticed. I can also attest that the caches were maintained as needed, and that a query sent to a cache owner or a note posted to the cache page got prompt attention. If there was a need to relocate those caches, it would have been a simple matter of making the request.

 

I had planned to take classes to the park for field trips to expose them to map reading and the use of GPS units, while taking advantage of the opportunity to show them the flora and fauna and of course the multiple rock outcrops with great fossils. I had planned on it, that is until the abrupt removal of the caches occured, without any attempt at communication. If that is the way that they treat geocachers--and the particular geocachers in question here are serious, dedicated individuals with great track records and an abiding respect for nature---then I am sure that my 15 year old freshmen would not be welcome!

 

I did write a note to the property manager to express my feelings when the 'great sweep' first occurred. The note was pleasantly and professionally worded, and asked several questions that the average person would have responded to without reservation. As of this date, I have not had a response.

 

Edited to fix that one typo that I noticed and to add that this is, indeed, Neos2 of Team Neos and not the entire team!

Edited by Team Neos

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I have been reading this forum with a lot of interest and I understand both sides, as I am a geocacher and a retired Illinois DNR State Park Manager and a Regional Land Manager.

 

I agree with Stanguy96qt. He has stated his position very well. Now I can not tell you why the PM has not responded.

 

It will get you nowhere to keep fighting with the PM. My suggestions are: 1) If you do not have an association, form one. 2) Attend the public hearing 3) Sit down and talk to the PM and remain calm and listen as well as talk 4) Suggest to the PM that you will work with him to ensure that geocaches are placed properly. Bottom line open up some direct face to face dialog with him.

 

It is "our" responsibilty to find out the rules and regulations for the area we place caches, as well as a courtesy. The geocache.com policy even states that

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

 

Yes they are taking a hard line with the policy at CSP, and according to the Asst Director of State Parks many of them were in areas that the manager was not going to allow under the new policy. This policy is similar to the policys in many other states.

 

The clean sweep in MHO was a way to start fresh and to begin following the policy, especially when few if any came forth to get a permit. If he did look up each email for the caches, and sent an email, how many responded?

 

There is a situation in Illinois where a geocacher has been contacted about his caches in 2 State Parks, that do not have permits. He has been notified of the policy and was requested to contact the Park for the permits. As far as I know he has not done so. Should the park remove the caches or ignore them? This is not responsible geocaching!

 

If geocaching is to be repected and allowed in public areas, we as geocachers must follow the area rules, talk with the PM's and place geocaching on a level above other type of activities that are looked upon as undesireable. Remember the use of our public lands is not a right, but a privilege. Let us not lose that privilege.

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I have been reading this forum with a lot of interest and I understand both sides, as I am a geocacher and a retired Illinois DNR State Park Manager and a Regional Land Manager.

 

I agree with Stanguy96qt. He has stated his position very well. Now I can not tell you why the PM has not responded.

 

It will get you nowhere to keep fighting with the PM. My suggestions are: 1) If you do not have an association, form one. 2) Attend the public hearing 3) Sit down and talk to the PM and remain calm and listen as well as talk 4) Suggest to the PM that you will work with him to ensure that geocaches are placed properly. Bottom line open up some direct face to face dialog with him.

 

It is "our" responsibilty to find out the rules and regulations for the area we place caches, as well as a courtesy. The geocache.com policy even states that

Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks.

 

Yes they are taking a hard line with the policy at CSP, and according to the Asst Director of State Parks many of them were in areas that the manager was not going to allow under the new policy. This policy is similar to the policys in many other states.

 

The clean sweep in MHO was a way to start fresh and to begin following the policy, especially when few if any came forth to get a permit. If he did look up each email for the caches, and sent an email, how many responded?

 

There is a situation in Illinois where a geocacher has been contacted about his caches in 2 State Parks, that do not have permits. He has been notified of the policy and was requested to contact the Park for the permits. As far as I know he has not done so. Should the park remove the caches or ignore them? This is not responsible geocaching!

 

If geocaching is to be repected and allowed in public areas, we as geocachers must follow the area rules, talk with the PM's and place geocaching on a level above other type of activities that are looked upon as undesireable. Remember the use of our public lands is not a right, but a privilege. Let us not lose that privilege.

I think a thorough reading of this thread will reveal many steps were followed to gain the respect of the pm and the "voting with our dollars" action was all that was left for us.

 

I believe, unless we take this right back to the IDNR advisory board where it started, the pm will continue to keep HIS park all to himself.

 

Another insight into this pm's way of thinking is his calculation of the amount of caches that could ever be allowed.

 

The rule states 1 cache per 200 acres of the parks total acreage. He takes his acreage and subtracts the new nature preserve and other off limit areas to come up with a total of 5 caches max. CSP is now Indiana's 2nd or third largest state park.

 

I'm guessing he hopes we will give up and wrote me once saying how upset he was I was going over his head, by writing the board. I have been waiting to see how Jon E Cache's contacts were coming along and on my year aniversary of our permit application, may start all over again.

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Yes, I see that you have taken several steps to follow through the proper channels.

If a lot of the property is nature preserves or areas that are protected in some way or another, that is not the PMs decision. Most areas are designated by probably the advisory board or another agency with in IDNR.

I do not know the particulars about this SP and the web site isn't much help.

 

I am not sure that a boycott would really get that much attention, unless you got everybody to do it. I think the geocaching community is too small to make an impact.

 

I jnow how he feels about folks going over his head! Been there had that happen to me too. :laughing: Yes it does make us unhappy! But those things happen.

 

Instead of the Advisory board, I would suggest going to his Supervisor, probably a Region Manager, then work your way up to the Chief of State Parks, and then the Advisory Board. Request a meeting to discuss the issues(not personalities) of implementing the policy at CSP. Keep the meeting numbers small with the most level headed folks you have. Make it a give and take meeting and most of all keep it civil and on a proffessional level.

 

I am just trying to give you some ideas on how to best handle the situation and to keep it from escalating to the point where geocaching is not allowed in any state areas.

 

Keep trying to get caches placed there. Follow the rules and work with him as much as he will allow. You never know what may change.

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I am not sure that a boycott would really get that much attention,...

I don't know if there's really an organized boycott of this park. In our case, at least, it's more a matter of when there were 50 caches in the park, it was worth a week's camping trip to us. Since we like to combine caching with our camping, we won't be visiting CSP until we've exhausted all the other more cache-dense areas.

 

Of course, the PM's attitude does play a part - I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that.

 

Apparently, quite a few of this park's visitors came for the caches. Now that the PM has, for whatever variety of reasons, decided he doesn't want to encourage that activity, he's going to have to decide what other things he can offer to compensate for the reduction in visitors. That's the privilege/responsibility of management: make a decision - deal with the consequences.

 

Mrs. Car54

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There is not a boycott of the park. Unless you are a hiker there is not a lot of reason to visit the park. It is like Car54 stated, there is nothing at Charlestown State Park that warrants more than one visit unless you are a local. The park has nothing to draw people to it. The lack of Geocachers has made a noticable drop in attendance according to one of the rangers that I talk to occasionally. So yes we do count. We already had a working relationship with Larry Gray and his rangers. I must say it was a good relationship. When they removed the caches there was no reason a note could not have been posted. As I stated before I gave Larry my phone number twice and told him I would handle any problem the arose including removing caches. So whether we knew of the new rules or not one courtesy phone call could have nipped this problem in it's infancy. I would have contacted all cache owners and we would have removed the caches and that would have been it. So now we have a multistate uproar when a little PR would have gone a long way. Is this a power play on Larry's part? I don't know but the lack of Geocachers in his park has hurt him a whole lot more that it has hurt us.

 

Charlestown State Park is really a great place to visit. I will still continue to hike and run the trails there. The best thing is that I get to do this by myself because there is never anyone else there.

 

This thread will continue on forever but most of the people who post here are all speculating. Only a few of us know what truly transpired.

 

Deermark

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Instead of the Advisory board, I would suggest going to his Supervisor, probably a Region Manager, then work your way up to the Chief of State Parks, and then the Advisory Board. Request a meeting to discuss the issues(not personalities) of implementing the policy at CSP. Keep the meeting numbers small with the most level headed folks you have. Make it a give and take meeting and most of all keep it civil and on a proffessional level.

Thanks for the insight. Fortunately, all the PMs of our state park system are (or seem to be) more agreeable with our sport and we don't want them to have to start choosing sides in this debate.

 

Not much can be achieved through this forum's thread, but it has been helpful to vent frustrations to like minded cachers. Then occasionally someone comes up with an idea that seems to have eluded us and off we go in that direction.

 

My impression of the advisory board meeting was, this rule will keep being modified until the whole community is satisfied with the results. We watched them modify deer hunting regulations for urban deer hunts because the desired result was not achieved.

 

We do have to let them know our feelings on what those results should be. I believe there is even a clause in the rule to allow grievances to be heard and decided upon. Maybe Mountain Climber can chime in here somewhere and get the ball rolling in that direction.

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