Puzzle Clarification

[+StarBrand]

This is kind of a spillover from this thread.

 

Many posters quoted the new wording for Puzzles as reasons a particular cache should be not listed:

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

 

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Travel Bugs that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

 

If you choose to submit a cache of this type please give as much detailed information as possible to the reviewer when you submit the cache. The reviewer may still need more information before listing the cache. Please cooperate with these requests.

 

Keystone Approver than Added:

Strictly speaking - most Puzzles caches I have seen would be disqualified as you need some information "from the field" to complete the puzzle. As such it is not on the cache listing and therefore not "acceptable". Now I know older caches are grandfathered but does this new wording really mean that ALL information should be from the listing to be a Puzzle cache??

No, that is not at all what it means. It was not intended for this wording change to be a major change from past practices.

 

So My question is, why the new wording? Should it be toned down to say something like "All information should be publicly available 24/7"? What are your thoughts on this?

[+Cow Spots]

There's an aspect to creating a puzzle cache that really worries me with this.

 

If a reviewer takes the narrowest interpretation of this, it could be argued that many puzzle caches out there would not be currently approvable.

 

An example : any puzzle cache which depends on linking in any way, shape, or form, to an outside site. As an example : I design a puzzle cache which involves you listening to an audio clip --- there's no way to include that clip on the cache page such that it is within Groundspeak's webspace. I have to host that on an outside machine and link to it.

 

If the intent is to restrain all the relevant info to the cache page itself -- that will limit the puzzle information to text on the cache page and images. Audio files, Adobe Acrobat files, password protected zip files, etc. could be considered off-limits.

 

It is entirely possible that I'm reading this too narrowly and overreacting.

[+SeventhSon]

If you have to go "here" to get information to get you "there", wouldn't that be a multi? I've seen a couple puzzle caches where you have to do this, and even tho there is a puzzle involved, the fact that you have to go to more than one location to get to the cache makes it a multi.

 

I like the fact that now puzzle caches will be just puzzles. "Solve this before you start your hunt" seems to fit more into the mystery of a cache.

 

And having a couple of brown boxes beside your cache listing instead of a blue question mark doesn't take away from the cache.

[+BadAndy]

 

It is entirely possible that I'm reading this too narrowly and overreacting.

Yeah, I think you may be reading too much into it.

 

Also, audio clips, mpegs and the like can chew up serious bandwidth, and I'm sure GC.com appreciates us linking to these as needed.

 

I have a cache that requires the cacher to listen to an MP3 that I've linked to on the cache page. It wasn't an issue for the approver. It nearly became an issue for me as I got close to reaching my allocated bandwidth from my isp the first week it was posted.

[+fly46]

I would like clarification on that, too.

[+hydee]

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing.

 

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community

 

means that the caches listed are for the majority not just a small group of caching friends.

 

and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing

 

This does not say that all information must be on the cache page, it says from the cache page the puzzle is solvable. Meaning, the cache page provides enough information to lead you in the direction of how to solve the puzzle.

[+the hermit crabs]

So My question is, why the new wording? Should it be toned down to say something like "All information should be publicly available 24/7"? What are your thoughts on this?

 

The first thought I had when I read this new wording was that it was in response to the "Friends Only" flap a few months ago.

[+StarBrand]

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing.

 

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community

 

means that the caches listed are for the majority not just a small group of caching friends.

 

and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing

 

This does not say that all information must be on the cache page, it says from the cache page the puzzle is solvable. Meaning, the cache page provides enough information to lead you in the direction of how to solve the puzzle.

Thank you for the clarification!!!

 

However, you can see how it might "mean that" but it doesn't really "say that".

[+Cow Spots]

Thanks for the clarification, hydee. I suspected that the new wording wasn't that restrictive.

[+JohnnyVegas]

Also, audio clips, mpegs and the like can chew up serious bandwidth, and I'm sure GC.com appreciates us linking to these as needed.

 

Audio files can be loaded onto cache pages, there have been threads reg. this subject. cache pages the play audios when you view them do not seem to be very popular. I would rather follow a link an audio file.

[+AtoZ]

THANK YOU hydee.

cheers

[+Renegade Knight]

...Thank you for the clarification!!!

 

However, you can see how it might "mean that" but it doesn't really "say that".

That's a problem any time you try to quantify an intent into guidelines. You think you have all the bases covered and find out you don't. I swear they call this the rule of unintended conquences.

 

Congress is good at that.

 

The event cache rule has the same issue, what it says and what the intent has been clarified to be are different. Good thing the forums are great at feedback.

[cezanne]

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing.

 

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community

 

means that the caches listed are for the majority not just a small group of caching friends.

 

and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing

 

This does not say that all information must be on the cache page, it says from the cache page the puzzle is solvable. Meaning, the cache page provides enough information to lead you in the direction of how to solve the puzzle.

Thanks for the explanation what you apparently meant when inserting the new sentence cited above. Although I am not a native speaker of English, I am, however, quite confident to claim that what is actually written in the guidelines is something different.

Even worse, the second part of the statement

 

The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and

should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing

 

makes no sense at all. Information can never be solved and thus cannot be solvable.

 

Moreover, I think that the statement is quite misleading. I would not say that a puzzle cache where ones needs to solve a complicated math problem or use a clever cryptographic method or solve difficult questions about literature which require the visits of several libraries and quite some knowledge in this area relies on information that is available to the general caching community. In the cases I pointed out, one needs a rather high level of education to be able to solve the puzzles and to be able to obtain the required information and above all to be able to understand it and use it. Still such caches are quite common in some areas and some of them are popular and I also have enjoyed caches that fall into this category.

 

I agree with you that one needs to exclude caches the solution of which requires some sort of "insider information", for example a special computer code which is available only to the cache hider and a few friends of him/her.

 

Since only a small proportion of cachers (in particular outside the US) read this part of the forum, it would be a very good idea to rephrase the unclear sentence regarding puzzle caches.

 

Cezanne

Edited February 18, 2005 by cezanne

[+Markwell]

They are guidelines, right? I think the approvers know what's sensible or not. Hydee has clarified it - and I think that should be enough, right? If an approver denies your cache because you have a link to an offsite website, just point the approver to her post.

[cezanne]

They are guidelines, right? I think the approvers know what's sensible or not. Hydee has clarified it - and I think that should be enough, right? If an approver denies your cache because you have a link to an offsite website, just point the approver to her post.

First, hydee's clarification does not turn a logically meaningless and ill-formulated sentence into a correct and well-formulated one.

 

Second, only a minority of cachers (in particular, outside the English speaking caching world) reads this forum.

 

Third, in many cases the information that is needed to solve a puzzle cache is not something which can be found on some web page. Often one needs knowledge that in some cases takes several months or even years to acquire for someone who has no basic background at all (take a math puzzle and a cacher who knows nothing else than basic arithmetics).

 

Cezanne

[+hydee]

Third, in many cases the information that is needed to solve a puzzle cache is not something which can be found on some web page. Often one needs knowledge that in some cases takes several months or even years to acquire for someone who has no basic background at all (take a math puzzle and a cacher who knows nothing else than basic arithmetics).

Knowledge and skills are not the same as information being provided.

 

If you put a complex math problem on a cache page, I may or may not have the skills/knowledge to solve it. But the information is there. How hard I want to work at it is up to me.

[cezanne]

Knowledge and skills are not the same as information being provided.

 

If you put a complex math problem on a cache page, I may or may not have the skills/knowledge to solve it.  But the information is there.  How hard I want to work at it is up to me.

Of course, information is not the same as skills, but information can mean very different things. (There is even a scientific field called information theory - the notion of information used there is quite different from your usage, however.)

 

It seems that when you talk about information you mean the puzzle itself. Am I right?

The information to solve a puzzle is, however, a different sort of information.

 

Take a literature puzzle where a very rare language is involved. The text of the puzzle will typically be on the cache page, but the information you need to solve the puzzle will not be there and it will not be accessible to the general caching community as knowledge of that rare language is the first prerequisite. There might not even exist courses/books to learn that language in your country.

 

Did I manage to make my point clear?

Maybe the guidelines should not talk about "information for the solution of the

puzzle", but rather about information about the puzzle itself.

 

Cezanne

Edited February 18, 2005 by cezanne

[+Hemlock]

Instead of just complaining about the wording, suggest an improvement.

[+Cow Spots]

I think this gets more towards crafting a puzzle cache. I have said before, that it is very easy to design a non-solvable puzzle -- one which requires information that is not available to everyone, or one that simply does not provide proper guidance as to the eventual solution.

 

For example, I could make a puzzle that uses a series of numbers from a book, and if I don't give you enough information about which book to use - the puzzle is virtually unsolvable.

 

NFA's recent puzzle with the $100 First Finder prize is an example of a puzzle that was extremely difficult, yet solvable. I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

Might it take you some time to solve a puzzle? Sure! If the solution involves you learning cryptography, programming, linguistics, visiting a library or mathematics -- then if you solve it, you've learned something in the end. If you're willing to go the extra mile to learn what is required, Go For It! If not, you can use the handy ignore feature now. Puzzles may not be everyone's cup of tea. If you don't like it, don't do it. There's always another cache a little further down the road.

 

The best puzzle caches give you a hint of some type on how to solve the puzzle -- it may not be an immediately obvious hint, but that's the fun. Sometimes I've spent more time on crafting a subtle hint then on designing the puzzle!

 

--Dave, The Cow Spots

[+Harry Dolphin]

Perhaps the problem here is that Mystery/Puzzle is a catch-all for anything that doesn't fit elsewhere?

A multi-cache seems to be a multipart cache. First stage gives the coordinates to the next stage.

I've logged a number of caches where at the first stage clues must be assembled from a monument, or counting the parking spaces in the parking lot, to put into a formula to get to the next stage. There seems to be some controversy as to whether these are multi or mystery. I've seen them listed as either. Perhaps a new category, such as 'offset' or 'pick a new category' would be more appropriate. I do not think of them as multi, though others do.

On the other hand, I've logged some excellent caches that were mysteries, or challenging. These definitely qualified as Mystery. Balderdash is a good exapmle, or Wheel Of Fortune NJ are examples of good mystery caches.