The Give And Take

[+cache_test_dummies]

A recent post by Snoogans in this thread got me thinking about the notion of giving to, and taking from, this game. I was wondering how I might reasonably measure whether I am 'giving' enough, and not 'taking' more than I deserve.

 

Some elements of my style of playing the game fall on the 'giving' side of the scale:

 

Place quality caches of my own

Trade up if trading

Try to always write good logs, including DNFs and notes

Notify cache owners if maintenance is required

Help the TBs along

Support GC.com by giving them $30 a year

Expose new people to the game, while always being a vocal advocate of responsible caching practices

 

On the 'taking' side:

 

Find caches which others have taken the time to place for my benefit

Make use of the GC.com servers to plan and track my hunts

Make use of the GC.com forums to be able to learn, have fun, and participate as a member in this virtual community

 

Also on the taking side (and I hate this one): regardless of my best intentions, the earth is sometimes a bit more worn in places where I tread while hunting.

 

I'm thinking that I need to give more. I think specifically I need to place more caches to carry my share of the load, as it were. And I plan on doing so.

 

But I'd be interested in hearing from others as to how they view their own 'giving' and 'taking'. I also wonder if anyone has devised any metrics, or 'rules of thumb' about reasonable levels of give and take, for example:

 

Ratio of Hides to Finds

Ratio of Hides to 'Number-of-those-who-have-found-my-caches'

 

Finally, in the grand karma scheme of giving and taking, are harder-to-find caches (which will be likely be found and enjoyed by fewer people), worth MORE or LESS 'giving' points for their owners than easier-to-find caches? In other words, if you are trying to measure giving, would a 3/3 cache be considered worth more than a 1/1?

 

edit: fix busted link

Edited January 26, 2005 by cache_test_dummies

[+CYBret]

If you give decent, honest logs that not only record what you've taken and left, but your experience as well then I think you've given as much as you've taken.

 

Bret

[+Birdsong-n-Bud]

Finally, in the grand karma scheme of giving and taking, are harder-to-find caches (which will be likely be found and enjoyed by fewer people), worth MORE or LESS 'giving' points for their owners than easier-to-find caches? In

 

Wow. I love this question. I know that my harder or more complex caches took a lot more thought, and people who do take the time to do them have mentioned a sense of reward and fun doing them. But you are right...if less people do them....I get less reward from less people seeking them, and does it give back to the community the same way?

 

I ended up creating a range of easier and harder caches within a certain mile range to try to fit everyone's needs. I also have to admit to being in different moods on different days: sometimes I have little time but feel like a quick cache. Other times, I really want to delve into a good one. Most of the quick ones were not necessarily what I would define "lame," though. They were all either in good spots or with a clever hiding container.

 

I think the sport needs both, really. And having a variety is what makes the sport so much more fascinating.

 

Which is worth more: depends on which day you ask me, lol. Looking forward to other replies.

[+GixxerUT]

maybe it's about costs vs. beneifts

 

and costs and benefits are defined differently by different people

 

for some, placing might be a cost, for others a benefit

a long strenuous hike might be a benefit to those that are looking for that, but a cost to others that just want easy ways to increase numbers

 

but what do I know, those are just thoughts that popped in my head when I read this

[+briansnat]

I don't look at this as a traditional give and take proposition, especially with regards to hides vs. finds. People focus on the part of the sport that they enjoy - some the finding and some the hiding. It can be argued that someone who enjoys placing a lot of caches is actually a taker, becuause they are receiving pleasure when someone finds their cache. If they are the taker, then the finder becomes the giver.

 

So in reality we're both giving and taking whether we're hiding or finding, so things are in a balance. I don't think anybody should feel guilty for "taking" if they have a lot of finds and few hides, nor should someone who has a lot of hides become smug about their "giving" nature.

 

Besides, I don't want to see anybody hiding caches to assuage some misplaced guilt. I want them to hide caches because they really want to.

 

In the end, we are all doing our part, whatever that part is.

[+HartClimbs]

Well said Brian. What's next - cache debits and credits?

 

For Sale on EBAY: 10 geocaching credits

[+vree]

Finally, in the grand karma scheme of giving and taking, are harder-to-find caches (which will be likely be found and enjoyed by fewer people), worth MORE or LESS 'giving' points for their owners than easier-to-find caches?

personally, if i enjoyed the cache a lot, i'll put something nicer in it. it doesn't necessarilly have to be a difficult rating for it to be a nice cache.

 

I've done a 5/3 cache, loved it. it was well thought-out and took me to some nice places. alternatively, i've also done one rated 1.5/1.5 and loved it too. obviously well thought-out, but not a long walk or too difficult to find. i'd be equally as likely to drop something nice in either of those caches.

i am more inclined to put less valuable things (or TBs) in a cache if i think the cache is likely to be muggled, even if it's a nice cache and i've enjoed myself.

 

as far as placement to find ratios, i think you have to call that one yourself. i know how many caches i can maintain, and that number will be different for different people. i would like to have quality caches over quantity and have the ability to respond, if needed, to any cache maintenance issues right away. if i had 20 hides, i wouldn't be able to check up on them as frequently. besides, you can find a lot more caches in a day than you can hide, so your ratio should reflect that. if we're all out hiding (or planning a hide), no one will have time to find any caches!

[+Renegade Knight]

I don't think it's an easy thing to calculate. If you could I think Hartclimbess idea of cache credits would make sence (instead of being funny).

 

People have different ideas on what giving and taking is and BrianSnat makes a good point on that.

 

In some conversations I've been in, some people have very strong ideas on giving and taking and they don't line up with mine. I like good logs and would welcome those if they never did another thing in caching in their life. If someone places one cache that's enough in my book and everything else is a bonus. If ever living person placed one cache we would run out of space so dominating your local area could also be considered a form of taking...

 

In my world the ones who are not realy participating (and thats different from playing their own way) are those who no matter the cache always sign the same "TNLN THX". While they may be great people who really don't know what to say in a log, from my end you could replace them with a machine and it would be the same.

[+vree]

In some conversations I've been in, some people have very strong ideas on giving and taking and they don't line up with mine.  I like good logs and would welcome those if they never did another thing in caching in their life.

yes. i'd have to agree with this.

If someone places one cache that's enough in my book and everything else is a bonus.  If ever living person placed one cache we would run out of space so dominating your local area could also be considered a form of taking...

also agreed. thank you for saying so eloquently what i wanted to say. you are right on, RK.

[+sbell111]

I've always found this issue to be very interesting.

 

On occasion, someone will mention that there should be a balance between placing caches and finding them. They argue that this balance is important to ensure that the hobby will flourish. While I believe that this was once an issue, I do not believe that it still is, at least in areas that I have cached in.

 

I consider the noob who finds a few caches, but then gives up the hobby. He finds the cache without being spotted by muggles. He trades fairly. He carefully resets the cache so others can enjoy it as he did. He then posts a fair and courteous log online.

 

This person certainly did not take from the game. It could be argued that he gave back because he was a good steward of the cache while it was under his control and he gave the owner valuable feedback as to its status.

 

Now lets imagine the same noob. This time, he didn't give up the hobby. Instead he found 3,000 caches. He still found, logged, rehid, and posted the same way; but he never hid any caches of his own.

 

Wasn't he still a valuable member of the community?

[+fly46]

I would think that all decent caches should count the same regardless of their rating. By decent I mean a dry cache that you can safely hunt. By safely I mean you won't get mugged trying to get it. So if you don't get mugged and the cache is dry, chances are it's a decent cache. Yeah, some are 'lame', but on the same token, I'd rather do 10000 lightpole caches than go to a cache and realize I should have a gun ready while I sign the log. Sure, some caches have a little more 'merit' - think Tube Torcher or Quantum Leap - but for the most part, a cache is a cache.

 

I don't think there's a formula to it. Do what you can and what you can maintain.

Two cachers have the same number of finds. Cacher #1 has three hides, all excelently maintained. Cacher #2 has 37 hides. Three are leaking, four are broken, six are disabled, and one is missing but hasn't been archived. Which cacher is doing a better job?

I'd rather see fewer hides if they're better maintained.

 

As for logging, as long as it's not "TNLNSL" or "TFTC" or "did on a cache run"... I'm happy. I'd like a comment about the cache when you found it. I'd like to know it's still in good condition, that there's room in the log, etc.. I'd like a DNF when you don't find it to know that someone was looking for it when it's not being found. Heck, even "log was dry, cache in good condition" is better than "found it thanks."

 

It's interesting being in Cacheville... The caches are found much more often, but the logs are much less rewarding.

[+sbell111]

If you do fifty in a day, its hard to remember which was which. I try to record all of my logs on my pda in Cache Log Book, but its still hard to say anything interesting about that visit to Bruno's parking lot. 'Thanks for bringing me here. I needed to buy some dog food anyway.'

Edited January 26, 2005 by sbell111

[+GixxerUT]

those who no matter the cache always sign the same "TNLN THX". While they may be great people who really don't know what to say in a log, from my end you could replace them with a machine and it would be the same.

interesting

[Aushiker]

Hi

 

I found the original posters thoughts on both sides quite relevant and valuable to me. I would add one thing on the giving side, and that is photos. I love to see photos from finders of my caches and of others. Great to see diferent places and different things from others perspectives.

 

On the cache finds versus hides debate, personally I like to maintain a ratio of around one hide for every five finds. Now before someone launches into me, this is my personal thing. I don't expect it from others, nor do I judge others on ratio of finds to hides.

 

Regards

Andrew

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

What an interesting thread...

 

What I try to give to geocaching:

I try to leave caches in better shape than I found them, both by trade and through maintenance.

 

I try to leave polite and appreciative logs in the cache and online.

 

When I think of it, I take pictures of my caching trip, and post them to the appropriate listing.

 

I am a premium member.

 

I try to help people with geocaching/outdoor issues when possible, either through email or the forums.

 

I have tried to place interesting and fun caches in my area that provide a diversity of caches types and difficulty levels for all caching-visitors.

 

I enjoy hosting events, and will continue to so a couple of times each year, I love getting together with other cachers.

 

What I take (or get) from geocaching:

I am exploring great places in the outdoors that I wouldn't otherwise have ever seen.

 

I am getting great exercise (not enough of it, but still more than I was before).

 

I am meeting lots of new and interesting people.

 

I am constantly learning more about the outdoors, GPS technology, and forum etiquette (hopefully ) from more experienced people.

 

At the end of the day, I feel that I am getting more out of geocaching than I am putting in, but I will continue to look for ways to give something back to it.

 

Thanks for the thought-provoking thread,

 

nfa-jamie

[+sTeamTraen]

Things I don't do very well:

 

- I don't trade up very often. I do try to avoid trading down, and as a result I very often don't trade. The goodies are not the most important part of the game to me. (I have met some serious, adult GCers for whom the goodies are a huge part of the deal - good luck to them!) My own caches tend to have fewer goodies than the norm - it's just something I have to work on. When I get the urge to place a cache, it always seems to be when my stock of curiosities is low. Still, I'm planning to place 12 caches for an event in May, so I have plenty of time to organise lots of "stuff".

 

- Although I own a selection of caches with different "challenge" levels, I don't have a big variety of clever hides. I set out with good intentions, but for some reason when I get to the final area I've chosen, I usually end up with a fairly simple hide. Again, this probably reflects the fact that after I've solved a tough challenge, I want my reward, without a lot of hunting around.

 

- Corollary to previous paragraph: I tend to give up too easily if I haven't found the cache after 15 minutes. I tell myself, "its probably been muggled", when in fact this is very rare (I must have logged 20+ DNFs for 125 physical finds, and only two had really been muggled).

 

Apart from all that, I'm in all other respects the perfect cacher

 

Nick

Edited January 27, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[+GRANPA ALEX]

All that I can add to the many good reply posts is that one can be positive & encouraging in the two logs - never flame in public (site & GC.com).

 

BUT, if there is a cache needs or concern care - DO send an email to the owner - a message for HIS consumption. I have done this and it was well received - AND I have had it done for me where I appreciated it.

[gridlox]

Besides, I don't want to see anybody hiding caches to assuage some misplaced guilt. I want them to hide caches because they really want to.

Good point!

 

I mean seriously, do you really think someone would be doing Geocaching justice by placing caches, just because they felt it was their DUTY to have to do it.

How serious do you think you would you take it in time of planning and looking for a the perfect spot, when all you were doing it for was to bring balance in your numbers?

 

I've got 4 caches sitting here right now that are begging to be hid.

(2 Micros, & 2 Traditionals)

I've already created the temporary pages for 3 of them and I'm ready to place them.

Except for one thing!

I haven't found the PERFECT spot for them.

 

I want them to be quality hides that people will enjoy.

Not something that once they find them, all they will be able to say is "Well, we found it. "

 

1 of the Micros is cammoed very well and needs to be placed in an area that will match it's cammo. But definately an Urban Micro. But it will NOT be a lame Dash & Cache, I guarantee!

And after reading the "Handicapped Accessible Cache" post, that just added another requirement for me to "want" to adhere to for this one!

 

The other Micro is neon orange and will be able to be spotted a mile away.

This one is for a "Special Task" cache that will have a requirement placed with it.

The requirement is something that I think will be fun to try and accomplish, "if you want to". Going to depend on the hunter and his/her will to succeed in the "Special Task". The "Special Task" is nothing physical. (Need a set of devil horns for here ) Sure you could just go and grab it to pad your numbers, but then that would negate all the fun that this one is intended to "give".

But again, I just haven't found that "Special Place" to put it.

 

One of the traditionals is just that. An regular ammo box, painted up for cammo effect to be placed in a wooded area. Searching for a good spot for it. Hopefully one that has some sort of interesting features around it as a bonus.

 

The other traditional is a theme cache. I want to hide it somewhere that will in some form or fashion represent the theme contained within the cache to fully complete the whole theme.

 

Let's see, at this point in time, I have 16 finds (takes) and potentially 4 hides (gives).

While the finds are fun, I think I will get just as much satifaction hiding good quality hides, if not more!

 

Guess who hides the eggs at Easter in our family!?!

Some may be just a little harder to find this year!

 

Hmmmm.... Geocaching Egg Hunt!?!

Sounds like it has potential!!

 

D-man

Edited January 28, 2005 by gridlox

[rescue557]

I think I'm doing the right thing; at least I hope I am. I support Groundpeak ($30/Year), hide quality caches, and help others maintain theirs (the ones I find). What more is there to do?

[+cache_test_dummies]

Thanks everyone for the responses. They really helped me get a better handle on my 'how to balance the giving and taking' issue.

 

I especially found this snip from briansnat to be helpful:

 

So in reality we're both giving and taking whether we're hiding or finding, so things are in a balance.  I don't think anybody should feel guilty for "taking" if they have a lot of finds and few hides, nor should someone who has a lot of hides become smug about their  "giving" nature.

 

Briansnat (and others) also pointed out the potential danger of placing caches in an effort to 'assuage some misplaced guilt' (I think was what Brian said). It would NOT have been my style to just throw some crummy caches out to feel better about my level of 'giving' (nor did anyone imply this), but I think the point was that in order to place good caches, your motivation should come from something other than guilt less you risk littering the landscape with caches void of positive emotion.

 

I still plan on placing more caches once the snow melts a bit, but I understand now that I will be doing the placements because I want to, not because I think that I have to.

 

- CTD

[+KolarBear]

Wow this is such a thrilling thread.

 

On one hand I have a lot more finds than placed

 

But everyday I check the site with some hope that one of my caches was found or my Travel Bugs were moved.

 

I think that it goes for most that you love getting feedback from other cacher on your items

 

I think that the amount you give to the sport always is the amount you recieve, if you hide a cache poorly and the feedback is short and boring, then you got nothing and the finder got nothing.

 

I think after reading this, it makes me want to put a lot more effort into my logs and cache and even trades.

 

-Kolarbear