When Should A Log Become Permanent?

[+Renegade Knight]

Cache owners can delete logs, and in general I agree with this because there are reasons to delete logs. However after enough time has passed I think it would be fair that the log becomes permanent. This would keep the owner from deleting all the logs and recycling the cache page and losing the history of the cache.

 

Opinions?

[+Cache Viking]

seems fair enough. after all in the forums you only have so much time to edit before the edit option goes away.

[+wildearth2001]

sounds like a good idea to me, just make sure the mods can always delete the logs if someone is found to have made false logs, but nobody finds out for a while

[+Robespierre]

I've only ever deleted one log. That was a dnf that said cache was muggled. I made a same-day trip to find cache OK. Cacher had found wrong area. What would be another good reason to delete a log?

[+shunra]

I'm afraid that this would increase the need to ask for administrative help if I find out later that a log is late and requires deletion. The more work they will have to do, the bigger the interface, and the bigger the chance for friction. Keep as much as possible between owner and hider, I say, without increasing the time.

 

Anyway, I don't see the problem with the current set-up. Have there been events of whole-scale deletions? In THAT case, an administrator could get involved on a one-time basis, unarchive the logs, and then archoive the cache as such, allowing the smileys to remain. How likely is it that that would happen? Has it ever? And if not, what's the problem?

[+welch]

Cache owners can delete logs, and in general I agree with this because there are reasons to delete logs. However after enough time has passed I think it would be fair that the log becomes permanent. This would keep the owner from deleting all the logs and recycling the cache page and losing the history of the cache.

 

Opinions?

I don't really see a need for a time limit.

Don't you sometimes talk about a cache thats only been found 4 times in 2 years, and your happy to be able to check it everyone six month? (or am i mixing up different things?) So you would need to set any time limit to beyond that time so as when you do get a chance to conpare logs with online finds you can delete any fakes. Besides that, what if someone waits till the day after the 'finds' are permanent before they tell everyone "oh btw, ive never found any of these"? Do you let them go because they've lied well enough up to now? Do you bother an approver to go back and fix it?

 

I can see the desire to preserve the cache's online history, but I don't like the idea of a time limit. Maybe it a change (maybe was Shunra was suggesting?) could be made where an alarm goes off if an cache owner deletes more than say 4 log within a 24hour period. This could block them from deleting anymore (without someone reseting the alarm) for a day or two, and alerts an approver to look at the cache. That way if someone is going threw and deleting everything to be recycled they'll be stopped all logs are gone, and an approver can check with them and see what is happening.

Another reason this alarm might go off is if some person(s) are posting a bunch of faked logs, or junk that shouldn't be there. In either case an approver being involved could help smooth things out.

[+shunra]

I can see the desire to preserve the cache's online history, but I don't like the idea of a time limit. Maybe it a change (maybe was Shunra was suggesting?) could be made where an alarm goes off if an cache owner deletes more than say 4 log within a 24hour period.

Hi Welch,

 

I wasn't suggesting making any change. I think it's a non-issue, and any energy to preempt it could better be channeled elsewhere. In the very unlikely event that a cache owner goes berserk and massively deletes logs, admins can be alerted and will interfere, even without such an alarm system.

 

BTW, can a cache owner delete logs from a cache which is already archived? Can he edit the archived page of his own cache? Can a finder remove his own log from an archived cache? I'm not suggesting changes or saying what I think the situation should be like, I'm just wondering what the situation is.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Don't you sometimes talk about a cache thats only been found 4 times in 2 years, and your happy to be able to check it everyone six month?...

Good point. In all honesty if there is nothing wrong with the cache I'm not going to go make a trip to visit it unless I'm ready to archive it. That could be a few years and 20 logs later. I'd not catch a fake log until then.

 

Edit: That's why I post this stuff! To catch things like that.

Edited June 28, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+Prime Suspect]

Cache owners can delete logs, and in general I agree with this because there are reasons to delete logs. However after enough time has passed I think it would be fair that the log becomes permanent. This would keep the owner from deleting all the logs and recycling the cache page and losing the history of the cache.

 

Opinions?

It's pretty rare that cache pages are recycled any more. Owners can't change the cache type, or change the coordinates (beyond just minor tweaking). Only an approver can do that.

 

Besides, you get notified if someone deletes your log, so the appropriate approver would hear about it pretty quick. And logs are never really deleted, they're just made "invisible". The can be restored.

[+welch]

I wasn't suggesting making any change. I think it's a non-issue, and any energy to preempt it could better be channeled elsewhere.In the very unlikely event that a cache owner goes berserk and massively deletes logs, admins can be alerted and will interfere, even without such an alarm system.

 

BTW, can a cache owner delete logs from a cache which is already archived? Can he edit the archived page of his own cache? Can a finder remove his own log from an archived cache? I'm not suggesting changes or saying what I think the situation should be like, I'm just wondering what the situation is.

Ah, ok thanks for clearing that up. Sorry I was assuming things...

 

Yea I think so, just like how people can still post logs to cache which is archived.

IIRC since the last time I tried that, no, not anymore. Not on one that has was approved and listed anyways, if it was never listed then they can, but there would be no other persons logs on such a cache anyways.

Yes, assuming you can find the log you can 'delete' it, which only apperently stops it from being shown to the public.

[+GeoBlank]

So when do people archived log entries? I can see deleting a bad one but who really archives them? Do they still show up but are just not editable?

 

Thanks

[+wildearth2001]

Can the mods unarcive a log if it was wrongly deleted? Do all of the logs, even the deleted ones show up to the mods?

[+Renegade Knight]

Can the mods unarcive a log if it was wrongly deleted? Do all of the logs, even the deleted ones show up to the mods?

They can unarchive a log. What I don't know is if they can make it stick, or if the owner can delete it again (which archives it in the present system).

[CoyoteRed]

I've long held that cache owners shouldn't have the power to delete logs at will.

 

There are really two problems for an owner to deal with; logs that give away too much information and bogus finds. Both of these can easily be dealt with differently.

 

Logs that give away too much information, though can be encrypted now, can be made invisible. The cacher's find still stands and you can see everything you see now except for the text of the log. Problem solved and the finder still gets to keep the find. The text of the log can still be seen by going through the finders profile page and lists of caches he has found, but there are no direct links from the cache page to that person's log. This would in essense be no different than a person having a private blog detailing his exploits. Advantage: hiding spoiler information without denying the find.

 

Bogus finds can be dealt with a "dispute" entry that attaches itself to the disputed log. The log stays--though could be hidden with the above mechanism--but has the effect of what "deleting" a log has now, the find is denied. An advantage of this is the fact there is a record of a person trying to log the cache. Others can contact the denied finder for more information. The cache owner can't make it seem as though it never happened.

 

No logs of either type will show up on PQs.

 

This would solve a great number of problems in one fell swoop including recycling pages, legitimate logs with spoiler, retaliatory deletions, and more.

[CoyoteRed]

I think I should add that the only valid reason to dispute a log is the person who claims to have found the cache didn't. I.e. it's not a legitimate find.

[dampeoples]

I like CR's method, cuts out the spite factor, and leaves things open to interpretation.

[+welch]

So when do people archived log entries? I can see deleting a bad one but who really archives them? Do they still show up but are just not editable?

 

Thanks

When a log is deleted, it is reallly archived. Which means it no longer shows up to 'normal' viewing/searching. Its there, and admins(& approvers too?) can still go in and find the log, but noone below that level can see them.

Don't ask for a techinical explainion I don't know.

Also, no clue why about the editing. But If you can't find it you can't edit it...

[+shunra]

It would be more appropriate to talk about archiving logs, rather than about deleting logs. It might take some of the emotional entitlement aspect away as well, and anyway, it's more accurate.

 

Now, in order to answer my own questions, I did a little test...

 

I just went to the page of one of my archived caches.

I am not able to edit the cache page, the way I can edit the page of my other caches.

I am, however, capable of deleting (= archiving) logs (By way of test, I deleted a Note, no a Find, which I had posted myself, so no damage was done to anybody.

 

I guess you can say there are two levels of archival:

 

* The shallow level, which removes a cache from the listing pages, which maintaints the value of the Find counts related to the logs on that page, and which maintains visibility for everyone who finds a link to that cache.

 

* The deeper level, which archives individual logs, removes their visibility, and (in case of Find logs) eliminates their count. The logs become invisible to all but the admins. Individual logs can be archived to this level by admins or by the owner, whether they are part of an active cache, or whether they are already archived as part of an archoved cache, at the shallow archiving level.

 

Have I lost anyone?

Edited June 28, 2004 by Shunra