National Forest

June 23, 2004

I am ready to place my first cache, the area that I like is in the Wasatch Cache national forest. Does this mean that the area is maintained by the national parks service? Or is it ok to place a cache there?

24.7k · June 23, 2004

The forest service is generally ok with geocaching. However some regions aren't. Maybe a local will check this thread and let you know about that specific forest.

2.7k · June 23, 2004

The Wasatch is part of the USDA not the NPS so Caches are usually allowed. Just check your maps and make sure your cache in not within the boundaries of the wilderness areas that are part of the Wasatch Caches are definately a taboo in desingnated wilderness areas.

June 23, 2004

Thanks for the info, the area that I was thinking about is in the Mount Naomi wilderness area, so I guess that I will have to find a different place.

July 22, 2004

But to keep your bases covered, it would not be wrong to contact the ranger station of the district in which you wish to place a cache... The geocaching association in my area ( Kentucky) has a set of guidelines that others may do well to follow Geocachers of Kentucky/Daniel Boone National Forest guidelines

Edited July 22, 2004 by virgo91967

38.2k · July 22, 2004

Caches are definately a taboo in desingnated wilderness areas.

Not all. It depends on the wilderness area and who is in charge. The geocaching policies in wilderness areas range from total bans, to total indifference. There is no blanket national geocaching policy.

Edited July 22, 2004 by briansnat

1.5k · July 23, 2004

Caches are definately a taboo in desingnated wilderness areas.

Not all. It depends on the wilderness area and who is in charge. The geocaching policies in wilderness areas range from total bans, to total indifference. There is no blanket national geocaching policy.

I have one cache inside a wilderness area, and Jeremy himself went on a hike with us last week to three caches inside the Alpine Lakes Wilderness here in Washington.

Here in WA if we were to totally exclude wilderness areas, 1/2 the state would be off limits.

My understanding is that if the Wilderness is administered by the USDA (US Forest Service) that you are usually ok. Some wilderness areas are administered by the NPS (National Park Service) which has a blanket ban in place.

Unfortunatly I've heard different stories from different approvers as to the actual policy.

July 27, 2004

That's because different national forests have different policies. Here in Montana, two forests, the Lolo and the Kootenai, have requested the removal of physical geocaches within wilderness areas. I expect that others will follow eventually, but they so far have not. Until then the assumption is that what is not forbidden is allowed...

July 27, 2004

Could be a sort of dont ask dont tell thing. If an authority doesnt know prescicly where it is at, how would they know? not that I would advocate such a thing :rolleyes:

5.9k · July 27, 2004

What is most ironic is that in places where geocaches are banned, National Parks and certain wilderness areas for example, summit registers are allowed. A summit register is a waterproof container with a log book of some fashion that is signed by a successful climber of the peak. It sits quite conspicuously on the summit and is not maintained by anyone in particular.

In other words, call it a “Trail Register” and it would be allowed. The word “cache” has a different connotation to rangers and hunters. This, I believe, is the bulk of our problem.

The best policy is not to ask anyone.

July 28, 2004

I agree with criminal!

July 28, 2004

Caches are definately a taboo in desingnated wilderness areas.

There is no blanket national geocaching policy.

Brian see Where can I go geocaching on Federal Lands, seems to indicate at least one blanket National Policy...though not necessarily enforced as such...

3.9k · July 29, 2004

What is most ironic is that in places where geocaches are banned, National Parks and certain wilderness areas for example, summit registers are allowed. A summit register is a waterproof container with a log book of some fashion that is signed by a successful climber of the peak. It sits quite conspicuously on the summit and is not maintained by anyone in particular.

In other words, call it a “Trail Register” and it would be allowed. The word “cache” has a different connotation to rangers and hunters. This, I believe, is the bulk of our problem.

The best policy is not to ask anyone.

Has anyone hid a cache and called it "Summit Registry"?

July 29, 2004

The best policy is not to ask anyone.

And yet, they somehow find out anyway.

A couple of the local cachers placed quite a few caches in the Cabinet Mountains Wilderness last summer. By Fall the Kootenai NF had asked that they all be removed.

Folks might be surprised to learn that geocaching isn't as big a mystery to land managers as they might think...

July 29, 2004

The best policy is not to ask anyone.

And yet, they somehow find out anyway.

Folks might be surprised to learn that geocaching isn't as big a mystery to land managers as they might think...

When I have some more time I'll review more in detail the Forest Service Website, but a quick search found LOTS more geocaching policies, statements and bureaucratic crap...then what was there a few months ago...so they are talking about it a lot more, than they did :tired:

5.9k · July 29, 2004

The best policy is not to ask anyone.

And yet, they somehow find out anyway.

A couple of the local cachers placed quite a few caches in the Cabinet Mountains Wilderness last summer. By Fall the Kootenai NF had asked that they all be removed.

Folks might be surprised to learn that geocaching isn't as big a mystery to land managers as they might think...

It's not about them "finding out", it's about deniability. If you ask they have to say no, if you don't ask, they don't have to say anything.

When I have some more time I'll...

But please, everyone push them into creating a policy. It's always fun to be the one who Fudges it for everyone else by tapping the hornet's nest.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Criminal

38.2k · July 29, 2004

Caches are definately a taboo in desingnated wilderness areas.

There is no blanket national geocaching policy.

Brian see Where can I go geocaching on Federal Lands, seems to indicate at least one blanket National Policy...though not necessarily enforced as such...

I've read the entire thing and could not find one blanket national policy regarding national forests.

But please, everyone push them into creating a policy. It's always fun to be the one who Fudges it for everyone else by tapping the hornet's nest.

Like in New York's state forests. People were happily hiding away, until some well meaning newbies started asking for permission and pushing for an answer. They got their answer. Geocaching is allowed with a special temporary use permit. When you go to pick up your permit, you must show them proof the $1,000,000 liability policy you've taken out for your cache, naming the state of NY as a beneficiary.

Edited July 29, 2004 by briansnat

July 29, 2004

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands

Doesn't that sound like a blanket policy for NPS park lands?

Edited July 29, 2004 by timberlane74 & pumpkin

5.9k · July 29, 2004

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands

Doesn't that sound like a blanket policy for NPS park lands?

Keep trying, you'll get them all banned sooner or later...

July 29, 2004

Just curious Criminal about how you think I'm trying to create an issue? The fact is that NPS does have a blanket policy for park lands and if you take the time to search the Forest Service website there is a lot more recent discussions going on within the FS about geocaching...I am not in anyway advocating policy formation....my ONLY intention is that when I have more time...is to wade through the "bureaucratic crap" and see if there is a common theme where they are headed...

1.3k · July 29, 2004

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands

Doesn't that sound like a blanket policy for NPS park lands?

National Forests are NOT NPS land.

National forests are managed by the USDA.

National PARKS are managed by the Dept. of the Interior I beleive.

They're two seperate things.

southdeltan

July 30, 2004

Here is the entire page from www.recreation.gov so you can all see the context:

Where can I go Geocaching on Federal lands?

What is Geocaching?

Geocaching is a challenging outdoor game for global positioning system (GPS) users. Participating in a cache hunt is an activity designed to take advantage of the features and capability of a GPS unit and enjoy the freedom of access to th public lands. Individuals and organizations set up caches all over the world and share the locations of these caches on the Internet. GPS users use the location coordinates to find the caches. Once found, a cache may provide the visitor with a variety of rewards. The visitor is asked to leave or replace items that they find in the cache.

What Public Lands allow Geocaching activities ?

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands. The Bureau of Land Management may allow it, you should check with the local office of the area you plan to visit. The Forest Service does allow geocaching activities on some of their lands; it is best to call ahead to the public lands you plan to visit to see what the local policy may be towards hiding caches. Many state parks and state public lands also have their own policies regarding geocaching. You should be sure to check with your local park authority before planning any geocaching activity.

For more information on Geocaching and policy regarding this activity, please see:

Bureau of Land Management Memo on Geocaching Activities

FAQ's about Geocaching from Geocaching.com

Central Oregon Geocaching Guidelines

In addition there were previous comments made about more governmental actions being taken re: geocaching....my search of the Forest Service website confirmed this...so YES I apologize if I combined two answers inappropriately...but at least the guys and gals are taking more notice of geocaching and IMNSHO...that may or may NOT be good...I'm just curious if there is a common theme for their "internal" discussions...which are not so internal as they post everything to the web...

2.7k · July 30, 2004

Here is part of the blanket policy, that basically says leave the Wilderness Area alone.

More information can be found Here. What kind of image does it give Geocaching when Jeremy goes looking for Caches in a Wilderness Area. There are lots of USFS lands out there that we can use, so why do Cachers make an issue of using the Wilderness Areas as they see fit. They keep it up and eventually caching could be in jeporday.

DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value

5.9k · July 30, 2004

Here is part of the blanket policy, that basically says leave the Wilderness Area alone.
More information can be found Here. What kind of image does it give Geocaching when Jeremy goes looking for Caches in a Wilderness Area. There are lots of USFS lands out there that we can use, so why do Cachers make an issue of using the Wilderness Areas as they see fit. They keep it up and eventually caching could be in jeporday.

DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value

I see nothing about geocaches in all that.

38.2k · July 30, 2004

The National Park Service absolutely DOES NOT allow Geocaching on park lands

Doesn't that sound like a blanket policy for NPS park lands?

The NPS does not admininster national FORESTS, which is the point of this thread.

5.9k · July 30, 2004

Just curious Criminal about how you think I'm trying to create an issue? The fact is that NPS does have a blanket policy for park lands and if you take the time to search the Forest Service website there is a lot more recent discussions going on within the FS about geocaching...I am not in anyway advocating policy formation....my ONLY intention is that when I have more time...is to wade through the "bureaucratic crap" and see if there is a common theme where they are headed...

The thread topic is National Forests, not Parks, they are very different. Your dog is banned from the NP, but allowed in the NF.

The issue is that by stirring the pot you (a collective you, not you personally) run the risk of compelling them to have a policy about something for which they are not presently concerned.

The BIGGEST danger is that it's called "geocaching”, and as I mentioned previously, that word has a different and negative meaning to forest rangers. The safest method is to continue to operate under their radar. If you make a big stink, they will hose us all.

July 30, 2004

Mea Culpa...that was the TITLE of the thread...though the question asked was...

"Does this mean that the area is maintained by the national parks service?"

Sorry for the confusion

Points for further discussion elsewhere....

1. There are several agencies responsible for a lot of the PUBLIC land and several do have policies some uniform...some not...

2. Several areas in the bureaucracy ARE becoming (more) aware of geocaching and have been creating lots of paper with proposed rules...guidelines etc...we need to be aware of what is "coming down"

38.2k · July 30, 2004

Here is part of the blanket policy, that basically says leave the Wilderness Area alone.
More information can be found Here. What kind of image does it give Geocaching when Jeremy goes looking for Caches in a Wilderness Area. There are lots of USFS lands out there that we can use, so why do Cachers make an issue of using the Wilderness Areas as they see fit. They keep it up and eventually caching could be in jeporday.

DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS

© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value

The Wilderness Act of 1964 also allows (under certain circumstances) for grazing of animals in wilderness areas, as well as mining, prospecting, cutting of timber, road building and building power lines. In comparison, geocaching is pretty darn innocuous.

Some wilderness areas prohibit geocaching, while others do not. If the management of a wilderness area wants to eliminate geocaching in their area, they are free to do so by creating a no geocaching policy. By not doing so, they are giving tacit approval to the sport.

Edited July 30, 2004 by briansnat

July 31, 2004

It is interesting that the "wilderness" aforementioned has a "MAINTAINED TRAIL"., which is a permanent improvement. It also has a shelter which is a permanent improvement! As for solitude, not likely in summer! It also has a summit register. A well hidden inobtrusive ammocan is a lot less of an annoyance than the garbage I have seen left by the trail by hikers and hunters alike! Especially at the only place to get water at the upper elevations! I have also seen where people have taken a c**p less than 30 feet from water in this wilderness. It certainly isn't that "untrammeled by man"!

CITO always!

August 10, 2004

It is interesting that the "wilderness" aforementioned has a "MAINTAINED TRAIL"., which is a permanent improvement. It also has a shelter which is a permanent improvement! As for solitude, not likely in summer! It also has a summit register. A well hidden inobtrusive ammocan is a lot less of an annoyance than the garbage I have seen left by the trail by hikers and hunters alike! Especially at the only place to get water at the upper elevations! I have also seen where people have taken a c**p less than 30 feet from water in this wilderness. It certainly isn't that "untrammeled by man"!

CITO always!

I have to agree with my hubby :rolleyes:

August 15, 2004

National PARKS are managed by the Dept. of the Interior I beleive.

They're two seperate things.

You're right.

National Park Service = Dept. of the Interior

U.S. Forest Service - Dept. of Agriculture

Two very different animals. I work for the latter...

August 16, 2004

Last weekend I again hiked on my favorite trail in this wilderness. I noticed something bright yellow and when I investigated I found some trash that had been there several years ago,that I had spotted then but didn't have room in my pack to take out. This time I removed one of the two sacks of litter. Interestingly they were left by the trail maintainance crew.

How, some of you will ask, did I know that they left it? Well trail maintainance had been done that year and the trash was from campers in this area but the real giveaway was the four yellow hardhats that maintainance crews wear in this area!

BTW the yellow bags said "Give A Hoot, Don'y pollute" and "Pack It In , Pack It Out"

On my next trip I will remove the hard hats as after several years I don't think they will return for then, Like I thought they would the first time I saw them.

National Forest

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