Geocache/letterbox Issue

June 21, 2004

Greetings to all my fellow trail trekkers!

I am very active in the letterboxing community but am not a geocacher. However, my adventures have sent me to many places where both kinds of treasures can be found. An problem has sometimes arisen when a geocacher apparently mistakes a letterbox for a cache leaves trinkets in a letterbox. I have seen this many times.

Recently, I lost a brand new hand carved stamp inside one of my letterboxes to a geocacher. They signed into the log and left a plastic toy in its place. The box was clearly marked on the outside with the word "letterbox." Does anyone here have any ideas how I can protect my stamps in the future? I would also love to figure out where that little stamp is now... Help?!!

Funhog:@)

June 21, 2004

Best thing I can think of would be to physically attach the stamp to the box and/or logbook with a bit of string, wire, or the like. Aside from that, writing a big red "Please do not remove stamp!" on the stamp body might work. Then again, it might not - some folks are just impervious to clues.

Edited June 21, 2004 by Seamus

June 21, 2004

Man, that really, really stinks. All toy jokes aside, that really, really stinks. A note wouldn't work, IMO, because I doubt people read them. Heck if there was a cache with $100 bill in it, I wouldn't know, I go for the log book, the kids go for the toys, I don't look further :huh:

The string thing would probably be your best bet

June 21, 2004

If the cacher signed the log, then you should be able to look for the cacher's handle at geocaching.com (or one of the other sites on the unlikely chance that the person isn't registered there), drop an email, explain the situation, and ask for a return of the stamp.

38.2k · June 21, 2004

Not the first time I heard of that happening. It seems that letterboxers and geocachers often use the same criteria when selecting placesto hide their boxes. I found a letterbox about 50 feet from one of my caches and antoher within 4 feet of a stage of one my multi caches.

Beyond labelling the stamp, perhaps by placing it in a bag and writing "do not remove" on it, I can't think of many other things you can do. Perhaps maybe if a geocache pops up near your letterbox you can move it far enough away so they aren't confused. 75-150 feet should do the trick. You can also put a note inside saying "THIS IS NOT THE GEOCACHE" just in case.

Writer also has a good idea. You can probably track down the geocacher who took your stamp and get it back. Just find out what cache is there and check the logs around the time your stamp went missing.

Your story reminds me of the time one of my caches received a log complaining that it was wet and a pen must have leaked because it was full of ink. The log also complained about the sparse contents and said they left a pair of sunglasses. I went to check on it and the cache was in great shape and no sunglasses. While I was there I decided to try to find a letterbox that was in the same area. We tracked it down, opened it and there were the sunglasses and it turned out that water got in the stamp pad and there was ink all over the place. The odd thing is that the letterbox was alomst 300 feet from the cache. Go figure.

Edited June 21, 2004 by briansnat

7.2k · June 21, 2004

I would also love to figure out where that little stamp is now...

Find out the coordinates of your letterbox and then do a nearest search by using this URL: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...x&lon=-xx.xxxxx

You can use http://lostoutdoors.com and the satellite photos to zero in to the proper coordinates if need be. Then in the resulting list of caches look for a log that mentions something that might look like they accidently logged that cache thinking your box was that cachr. Email that cacher. Politely explain the situation and refer them to letterboxing.org site for further information. Ask for the stamp back.

Believe me, I know what it is like to lose a stamp as "a trinket." You want to see a generally mild mannered woman go ballistic, watch Sissy's reaction when she finds out one of our stamps is missing.

We've taken to engraving "NOT A TRADE ITEM" directly on the mount. Not only that, but stickers on the pad and the ziplock bags the stamp and pad are in.

Thing is we place hybrids. I can understand having to deal with this site's lack of guidance for newbies--something I've mentioned more than once here on the forums--but I find it completely incredible that some would say that the boxer must move their box if someone places a cache too close! If the box was there first, then the box stays. If anyone should move, it's the cache. (Again, not even getting into the issue of proximity, research, education, or a host of other issues.)

It's unfortunate that geocaching is becoming a juggernaut with huge blemishes and some people's solutions are for others to just get out of the way. Shame.

[EDIT: clarity]

Edited June 21, 2004 by CoyoteRed

38.2k · June 21, 2004

but I find it completely incredulous that some would say that the boxer must move their box if someone places a cache too close! If the box was there first, then the box stays. If anyone should move, it's the cache. (Again, not even getting into the issue of proximity, research, education, or a host of other issues.)

I knew someone would misconstrue my statement. I didn't say the letterbox must be moved. I suggested that it might be a good idea to avoid confusion. If the two are confused, it's going to be the letterboxer who winds up losing out when the stamp is taken. Neither the letterbox, or the cache has an exclusive "right" to the spot, regardless of which was placed first, but it's the letterbox that is endangered by the existence of the cache and not vice-versa.

The letterboxer can e-mail the cache owner and ask him to move his cache, but if he won't, isn't it better to move the letterbox a little to protect it? Its not a matter of geocaching being a "juggernaut" and all others must move out of the way. It's just common sense. I know if the existence of a letterbox near one of my caches jeopardized the cache, I'd move the cache.

7.2k · June 21, 2004

Okay, okay. I'm sorry. I did speak out of anger and I did take it the wrong way.

It does make sense to take a proactive approach to protect your hide, but I just galls me still that there is little in the way of education from this site so all here knows to play well with others. Many of ours regulations are reactions from this very issue--lack of cacher education, not letterbox confusion.

It's just frustrating!

38.2k · June 21, 2004

It does make sense to take a proactive approach to protect your hide, but I just galls me still that there is little in the way of education from this site so all here knows to play well with others. Many of ours regulations are reactions from this very issue--lack of cacher education, not letterbox confusion.

I bet that at least 3/4 of geocachers don't even know letterboxing exists and of the remainder half of them probably don't understand it. There is a lot of educating to be done, but it's not easy. Most geocachers never even visit the forums, so this isn't the place for it. Heck, they place caches and don't read the guidelines, even though they check a box saying they did, so how do you educate people who refuse to read even simple instructions?

7.2k · June 21, 2004

Even if there were a solution, getting it implimented would be a larger hurdle. Probably fodder for a different thread.

June 21, 2004

...
Beyond labelling the stamp, perhaps by placing it in a bag and writing "do not remove" on it, I can't think of many other things you can do.

...

I've been putting letterboxes into my caches with a separate logbook and stamp and I put both items into a separate container (usually a ziplog bag) and wrote on the bag "DO NOT REMOVE." It has been working great so far and that's saying something since the people are arriving at the cache planning on trading. I've not lost one yet.

7.2k · June 21, 2004

Remember, these are not hybrids, but pure letterboxes. Non-boxing cachers shouldn't be in there to begin with. Asking enthusiasts of a different sport to change because of us is not right.

While one solution is to take a proactive approach and mark the box and contents in case a clueless cacher stumbles across it, I don't think it even a good solution. Funhog did say the box was clearly labeled "letterbox." What's next, neon? ...maybe a recorded message that is triggered when the box is opened?

Clueless newbies shouldn't be clueless nearly as long as they are.

June 21, 2004

Remember, these are not hybrids, but pure letterboxes. Non-boxing cachers shouldn't be in there to begin with. Asking enthusiasts of a different sport to change because of us is not right.

While one solution is to take a proactive approach and mark the box and contents in case a clueless cacher stumbles across it, I don't think it even a good solution. Funhog did say the box was clearly labeled "letterbox." What's next, neon? ...maybe a recorded message that is triggered when the box is opened?

Clueless newbies shouldn't be clueless nearly as long as they are.

I don't know if I agree with this. If a new hobby/activity were to happen in the area where my cache is, let's say this new activity trades logbooks, I would certainly go out to my cache where there could be a conflict and identify that this logbook isn't to be taken.

I don't think that the entire Letterboxing community should now label all of their stamps as "DO NOT REMOVE," but where there is overlap, each party should certainly take steps to protect the integrity of the container.

As for the case this thread was started on, I belive the owner of the cache in question, once the cache is identified, should modify their cache page to indicate to future finders that a letterbox is in the area. This should help educate cachers to the other activity.

7.2k · June 21, 2004

First, where is there a place with no letterbox, geocache overlap?

Second, once the possibility of there being a conflict the site causing the problem should take steps to correct it. In this case, finders (geocachers) are taking stamps (problem). The solution is for the folks hosting the activity (geocaching.com et al) to educate its members (cachers) in order to play well with others.

We've already seen proximity rules come into play partly because people were finding the wrong box and then complaining they logged the wrong cache. While the solution was relatively easy to implement--not allowing cachers to place cache within a certain distance of another gc.com cache--it doesn't address the problem that either placers are not marking their caches or finders aren't paying attention to what they are doing. If the solution had been to educate the members to properly mark their cache AND for finders to identify the cache they find, not only would there not be much of a need for the proximity rule, but there wouldn't be a problem with people finding gamepieces of other sites and activities.

See, the solution ws only fixed within the gc.com community and nothing was done in addressing it with other sites.

That is just one symptom of this issue.

Granted, I've had to mark my stamps to keep them from being traded out, but why should I have to do this? Many problems could be fixed with a better education of the members here.

24.7k · June 21, 2004

Sounds like letterboxes need a stash note.

"This isn't a geocache. It's a letterbox. Read about it on www.letterboxing.org. The stamp is meant to stay in the box. I repeat, THE STAMP STAYS IN THE BOX!.

One more time just in case.

LEAVE THE FUDGING STAMP IN THE BOX!!!

7.2k · June 21, 2004

Actually, many boxes that I've visited have multiple a stash notes so accidental finders can take one with them! Something I don't know why I haven't done before with my caches. Definitely something I will be doing when I start up again!

June 21, 2004

"Remember, these are not hybrids, but pure letterboxes. Non-boxing cachers shouldn't be in there to begin with. Asking enthusiasts of a different sport to change because of us is not right.

While one solution is to take a proactive approach and mark the box and contents in case a clueless cacher stumbles across it, I don't think it even a good solution. Funhog did say the box was clearly labeled "letterbox." What's next, neon? ...maybe a recorded message that is triggered when the box is opened?

Clueless newbies shouldn't be clueless nearly as long as they are. "

Why does each of your posts sound very angry and attacking towards Geocaching, the GC site, and the people that enjoy this sport? I can understand being upset when a letterbox is mistaken for a cache. But to come in here in the forums and bash the site, make accusations and attack geocachers seems VERY UNCALLED for. If everyone had to pay for the use of the site (which I hope never to see in my lifetime) then there might be more control. But its simply unrealistic to think that GC has any control over the many thousands of geocachers. Not to mention other geocaching type sites, navicache for example.

Brian stated it pretty well, many people that geocache never come to the forums, or glance over the vast amounts of information thats out there. There is no way to control if a person truly read something if they stated they did. What you want GC to quiz people on policies before accepting caches or logs etc? That would be absurd.

IMHO GC has done a very good job in having the proper information available to those who want to read it and be responsible quality geocachers. However, they cannot control or rule over all of them and you certainly cant blame GC for those poor quality newbie Geocachers out there.

I had a newbie in my area take a ziploc bag full of trade items in a cache, thinking it was one item because it was in a bag, never thinking it was so the items would be protected. I PM'd them and took some time sharing tips and explaining to them more about caching. They listened and even made a trip back to replace the items. They had said they had read through the site, but when it came to actually do the cache they made mistakes, just like we all do everyday with something new. I myself learned from another Cacher and read through the forums etc to gain tips etc. But when you are looking for a cache with the error factor that so many gps's have, not to mention the possibility of improper coordinates, you should expect some mistakes to happen.

Others have stated it pretty well. If there is a cache or letterbox nearby (sometimes its hard to know) Then the respective owners should take steps to ensure that its harder to have thier chaches or boxes mistaken for something else. These steps should NEVER NEVER include removing the other persons cache or letterbox. To do so would only start a war between the two that would be totally uncalled for.

Yes sharing concerns because you care, etc is one thing, to attack people, GC and the sport is quite another.

MH

[edit - changed wording about forums as a correction]

Edited June 22, 2004 by Mechanics Hands

7.2k · June 21, 2004

Psst! Click around on a some of my links.

I rant because I care. I see a problem and I say something about it. People who have been around for a while will know this. If no one speaks up then the folks who run this asylum won't know people are unhappy.

6.5k · June 21, 2004

Mechanics Hands:
Why does each of your posts sound very angry and attacking towards Geocaching, the GC site, and the people that enjoy this sport? I can understand being upset when a letterbox is mistaken for a cache. But to come in here in OUR forums and bash the site, make accusations and attack geocachers seems VERY UNCALLED for. If everyone had to pay for the use of the site (which I hope never to see in my lifetime) then there might be more control. But its simply unrealistic to think that GC has any control over the many thousands of geocachers. Not to mention other geocaching type sites, navicache for example.

I guess I read CR's posts with a different tone in mind, as they didn't seem really that angry. Annoying and a bit frustrated, yea, but not angry. I also didn't see 'some newbies are doing things wrong' and 'gc.com could do more to help the problem', as attacking as bashing. And before I go further, left me say Im not trying rip on you, just pointing out how I see it.

Oh, and I would like to point out that 'OUR' forums would probably refer to those that them, including CR :bad: .

Brian stated it pretty well, many people that geocache never come to the forums, or glance over the vast amounts of information thats out there. There is no way to control if a person truly read something if they stated they did. What you want GC to quiz people on policies before accepting caches or logs etc? That would be absurd.

Sure... They actually do that in a way. Its a one question one answer test. "check here if you have read and understand everythign you're supposed to know". However, is Letterboxing even in the guidelines and FAQs?

IMHO GC has done a very good job in having the proper information available to those who want to read it and be responsible quality geocachers. However, they cannot control or rule over all of them and you certainly cant blame GC for those poor quality newbie Geocachers out there.

I read it as CR blaming GC.com for what he sees as GC.com wimpy attempts in the way of informing newbies about not stealing the stamps. Even putting things in the reading only works for some, but not for everyone. This is repeatly noticed (why wasn't my simple virtual/ locationless/ physical on NPS land/ in the middle of major bridge/etc cache not approved? type threads), and its also been discussed repeatly about how ed u ma cating the general site users could be done better. And so far change has been mostly slow, and often as reaction to many complaints.

24.7k · June 21, 2004

Remember, these are not hybrids, but pure letterboxes. Non-boxing cachers shouldn't be in there to begin with. Asking enthusiasts of a different sport to change because of us is not right.

While one solution is to take a proactive approach and mark the box and contents in case a clueless cacher stumbles across it, I don't think it even a good solution. Funhog did say the box was clearly labeled "letterbox." What's next, neon? ...maybe a recorded message that is triggered when the box is opened?...

Asking people with a problem to solve the problem is ok.

One problem with geocaching is accidental finds. We don't want muggles to find caches but we do want geocachers to find them. We can't control that the non caching public may find the cache. Our solution is to put in a stach note and hopefully turn a muggle into a geocacher.

Another problem is that geocachers can find a letterbox. That it says letterbox doesn't matter. A lot of the caches I find say "50 Cal." on them. The problem is that non letterboxers find letterboxes and so they need to solve it. Maybe a stash note is a bad idea. However in the case of geocaching it often work better than you might think. I've had one cache found by 'accident' about 6 times. It was in a tree in a busy park. Each finder signed the log and read the note. It worked.

Should letterboxers change to solve their problem? Only if they are interested in a solution. Is that solution a stash note? Maybe, maybe not. It wouldn't hurt though.

Finally since geocachers and letterboxers both look for locations to find a place to hide their tupperware as both RASH's grow you can expect more accidental finds to happen on both sides of the fence.

2.4k · June 21, 2004

I read it as CR blaming GC.com for what he sees as GC.com wimpy attempts in the way of informing newbies about not stealing the stamps. Even putting things in the reading only works for some, but not for everyone. This is repeatly noticed (why wasn't my simple virtual/ locationless/ physical on NPS land/ in the middle of major bridge/etc cache not approved? type threads), and its also been discussed repeatly about how ed u ma cating the general site users could be done better. And so far change has been mostly slow, and often as reaction to many complaints.

Exactly. Just like CR knows but doesn't want to admit, the problem ISN'T the lack of information put out by gc.com it's just too many people are too lazy to READ the information. There would be a lot less "newbie mistakes" if people would just read the guidelines, and other information available on gc.com. They wouldn't even need to come to the forums, although that wouldn't hurt, either.

6.5k · June 22, 2004

First, where is there a place with no letterbox, geocache overlap?

Easy, a place with either no people, or is devoid of any people taking part in one of the activaties :bad: .

Second, once the possibility of there being a conflict the site causing the problem should take steps to correct it. In this case, finders (geocachers) are taking stamps (problem). The solution is for the folks hosting the activity (geocaching.com et al) to educate its members (cachers) in order to play well with others.

Ok, lets say I agree, I do in a way, but I also can't see a simple yet fool proof way of educating the geocachers. What do you think could be done differently? or mabye How could it be done differently?

We've already seen proximity rules come into play partly because people were finding the wrong box and then complaining they logged the wrong cache. While the solution was relatively easy to implement--not allowing cachers to place cache within a certain distance of another gc.com cache--it doesn't address the problem that either placers are not marking their caches or finders aren't paying attention to what they are doing. If the solution had been to educate the members to properly mark their cache AND for finders to identify the cache they find, not only would there not be much of a need for the proximity rule, but there wouldn't be a problem with people finding gamepieces of other sites and activities.

See, the solution ws only fixed within the gc.com community and nothing was done in addressing it with other sites.

Hm... so you would like everyone that finds a container, write the name of container in the log?

I agree, the proximity fix only works in gc.com community. I sometimes wonder why gc.com only checks proximity for itself, when its reasoning for doing so would apply to all other sites, not just 'their' own. I decided it was the decision of the TPTB to do it that way. Checking any other site, means they have to check all other sites. It may also give credit to the other site in some way... showing they are important enough to be looked at. Instead, they check only themselves, and try to stay as they are. A listing service, with a hugest proportion of caches listed.

Granted, I've had to mark my stamps to keep them from being traded out, but why should I have to do this? Many problems could be fixed with a better education of the members here.

The same reason I have to watch people in other vechicals when driving. Just because im doing the correct speed, in the correct lane, using proper signalling, etc etc, doesn't mean others always are. Those that know that should know better don't (or at least are not showing it at that moment), so I can either react as needed (or I can lost my stamps). Perhaps the other person should be pulled over and checked out, but thats not being done. Where are the police?!

38.2k · June 22, 2004

Is that solution a stash note? Maybe, maybe not. It wouldn't hurt though.

Letterboxing does have its own version of the stash note. Every letterbox I've found so far had this note, or something similar inside.

June 22, 2004

I cache and letterbox. The first letterbox I found had quarters and stuff in it, and little trinkets. I found it odd. Now I think that a cacher had found it. I actually found out about cacheing through a letterbox. There are two about 10 feet from each over in Clifton, VA. In the log book, several cachers had found the letterbox in looking for the cache and just left a note. There was no note explaining that it was a letterbox. People basically understood. I think that there will always be people who are just clueless.

I've just begun placing letterboxes, and I make sure that there aren't any in the immediate vicinity.

June 22, 2004

Updated my original post. Sorry for not noticing the amount of posts you've made here coyote, it just sounded like it came from a letterboxers point of view, not a cachers.

However I still stand by the other points, things like clueless newbies shouldnt be clueless for so long etc does appear attacking, harsh etc. You were once a clueless newbie, just like the rest of us. Just like with kids, cachers grow and learn at different speeds. Its also hard if you dont have someone to show you the ropes first, or take the time to read and ask and listen and study other caches. Even reading the forums and the topics only helps so much, alot of OJT is also needed.

Thats why when I went to a newbies cache that was horrible, way off in Cor's etc I pm them and we dialoged back and forth as I was able to pass on the knowledge I had obtained. (the area was very light in caches had to drive over 50 miles to get one or two) Why did I take the time to do that? Because I cared about Caching, and if someone didnt help the newbie, then they would have continued on in their newbie mistakes. To often people will slam, attack, bash etc, someone rather than sending them a PM in a pleasant constructive way, with tips to try to help them. If they dont listen, then its their loss but you tried what you could. Its about giving back to the sport in a constructive way.

Most peoples rants, attacks etc will only serve to close off the other person and have them get defensive than really listen and it often destroys the chance to accomplish what you really wanted to with expressing your concerns.

MH

June 22, 2004

Adding that a letterbox is in the vicinity to the cache description page could help, along with a link to the letterbox site.

I suppose it could also hurt though, but that's the chance you take putting a box in the woods.

7.2k · June 22, 2004

Just like CR knows but doesn't want to admit, the problem ISN'T the lack of information put out by gc.com ...

Not exactly. I don't think I presented my point as a lack of information. In fact, I fully acknowledge there is an abundance of information, even redundant information, here in the forums.

My issue is the way it's presented. Folks have to wade through tons to data to get the information needed. Just look at the questions that get duplicated in this very forum. If the information was presented better, folks could get through it and absorb it, and KA woouldn't be going through so many cute, fuzzy animals.

To keep this relatively on topic, let's contrast gc.com and LbNA.org. Geocaching.com's front page is information overload. Once you find the link you need, you burrow down to the data presented in huge chunks. It reads like a tech manual.

While LbNA.org is not the best, it still presents information in a clearer, more concise way that keeps your interest.

So, you see, it's not about the amount of information available, it's about how that information is fed to the people who need it, and thusly, how much of that information is absorbed.

24.7k · June 22, 2004

Adding that a letterbox is in the vicinity to the cache description page could help...

That's a very good point.

If I knew I my cache was near a letter box I would state that in the cache page. After all I want people to find my cache when they are looking for it, just like they want people to find their letterbox.

7.2k · June 22, 2004

Ok, lets say I agree, I do in a way, but I also can't see a simple yet fool proof way of educating the geocachers. What do you think could be done differently? or mabye How could it be done differently?

If I were in Jeremy's shoes, once I identified a problem of this nature, recognizing that I (CR) am not equiped to effectively design a mechanism to present the information, I'd hire someone. "Hire" as in getting someone else to do it for me. Heck, with the number of people available and the talent at hand, Irish has enormous untapped resources. Granted, I understand now why he doesn't tap people for coding help, but what about a design contest? It would be relatively trivial to present parameters and have people present their ideas. This could be site design, layout, even the complete presentation of the idea of geocaching.

While there is no foolproof why to presenting the information needed by the masses, it could be done a lot more effectively than it is now.

June 22, 2004

You know, reading the posts on this topic and others is giving me a great idea for an event cache. I went to one that had some good info on going paperless. Imagine one that explains letterboxing and how to place your first hide, among other things. The best way we can help ourselves is by educating others within and outside the Geocaching community.

One other thing I would like to add is that Geocaching.com has shown much more interest in keeping the caches in "agreeable" locations. I saw very little on LbNA.org that indicates where a letterbox placement would be unacceptable.

Edited June 22, 2004 by Destitute

7.2k · June 22, 2004

One other thing I would like to add is that Geocaching.com has shown much more interest in keeping the caches in "agreeable" locations. I saw very little on LbNA.org that indicates where a letterbox placement would be unacceptable.

While it is not completely spelled out, this portion of the info sheet that is generally added to boxes says it fairly succinctly:

Letterboxes should be hidden on land to which the public has access. They should be placed so as to make a casual find by a "non-letterboxer" unlikely, yet must be accessible without impacting the natural surroundings. They are not to be buried in the earth, but placed under rocks or in existing natural holes, crevices or cavities. They should not interfere with native wildlife or habitats. They should not be placed close to one another (to avoid damage from over-intensive use of an area), nor should they be located in any potentially dangerous situation. A contact number/address should be provided so that information pertaining to the box can be passed to the owner.

In short, make sure you hide your boxes in a safe, legal, and ethical way.

It goes on to say:

When hunting for letterboxes, please respect the land upon which they are hidden. Do not disturb any historical landmark or private property. Do not break sod, remove native vegetation, disturb natural rock formations, or interfere with animals or their habitats. Leave the site better than you find it; you are encouraged to remove any litter left behind by people who care less for the land than you.

Also, please respect the contents of each letterbox and the effort put into it by its sponsor. Replace the box carefully and leave it as you would hope to find it: hidden from view, with contents intact. If a box is damaged, please notify its owner.

These are very much similar to the tennets enspoused by geocachers. About the only thing it doesn't say is the areas in which boxes aren't allowed. It's is left up to the placer to gather that information.

Edited June 22, 2004 by CoyoteRed

June 22, 2004

These are very much similar to the tennets enspoused by geocachers. About the only thing it doesn't say is the areas in which boxes aren't allowed. It's is left up to the placer to gather that information.

Exactly my point, Geocaching.com tells you that you can't place a cache on NPS land, NWR property, et.al. Common sense would seem to be able to tell most folks whats proper and whats not. Only thing is, common sense ain't all that common.

4.7k · June 22, 2004

Updated my original post. Sorry for not noticing the amount of posts you've made here coyote, it just sounded like it came from a letterboxers point of view, not a cachers.

all righty.. let's suppose an opinion does come from a disgruntled letterboxer instead of a cacher. no less valid.

and let's suppose that a cacher might have or have had some frustrations with gc.com. still no less valuable a player.

i'm going to assume from his posts that CR is a committed cacher, but also not delighted with how everything at gc.com is handled. i am also going to assume that he wishes to see the sport handled by players instead of listing services.

i like gc.com just fine. i also like to see diversity and choice for players. it's healthy.

this weekend i found a letterbox about ten feet from a geocache. i do not know which preceded the other. i did notice that letterboxers went and stamped the geocache book and that the geocachers all signed the letterboxing log as if they were friendly and respectful visitors. nobody has appeard to take the stamp yet.

gc.com does not encourage cachers to be stupid and rude. all the information is there, but if i were a letterboxer, i would make it my business to protect my assets from idiots.

incidentally, i was going to take up letterboxing as well, but i did not like the tone of some of the letterboxing things i was reading. i read somewhere that "letterboxing is just like geocaching for people with brains", and that moment there was the moment where i decided that all of my containers would require gps use in some form.

i like the idea of letterbox style clues. i resent the implication (probably not made by anybody here) that a geocache is necessarily less clever or less demanding.

i have also accidentally found some other containers from other games. i always sign in. i never take things without knowing the rules. sometimes i leave something as a gift in tribute.

7.2k · June 23, 2004

incidentally, i was going to take up letterboxing as well, but i did not like the tone of some of the letterboxing things i was reading. i read somewhere that "letterboxing is just like geocaching for people with brains", and that moment there was the moment where i decided that all of my containers would require gps use in some form.

i like the idea of letterbox style clues. i resent the implication (probably not made by anybody here) that a geocache is necessarily less clever or less demanding.

I understand what you're saying, but you'll have people with attitudes in both camps.

With that said, let's look at the core of geocaching versus letterboxing.

Geocaching requires a logbook primarily, trinkets and a container secondarily--though pretty much a given. Clues can merely be a set of coordinates.

Letterboxing requires a personal stamp and each box has a stamp and a logbook. It's considered somewhat bad form to have a simple store bought stamp, but a relatively unique-to-the-spot stamp is okay. Very much preferred is a custom stamp. Clue are generally verbal (written).

So constrasting the two you see letterboxing is actually more involved in the placement of the piece. You can see this if you've ever put together a hybrid.

The hunts typically are completely different. I like to say hunts for caches are "end loaded" while hunts for letterboxes are "front loaded." By this I mean, getting to the general area of a cache is pretty darn simple--it's the last few feet finding the darn thing that's the trick!

OTOH, a letterbox hunt typically is front-loaded--especially a Mystery Box, of which geocaching really doesn't have such an animal. Sometimes the closest you are given as a starting point is a general area and you have to follow clues right to the box. The endgame generally isn't nearly as hard as the trip to it. (Does that make sense?) Given that a letterbox as compared to a cache and using tradition letterbox-style clues is at minimum a multi cache and rarely rated a one star in difficulty.

So base-level comparisons of caches to letterboxes, a cache is easer to place and to find.

(To be perfectly honest, though, there have been boxes with short written directions walking you directly to the box. These I guess could be considered a 1 star.)

That's not to say that caches can't be as hard as boxes, but given the fact that hardest of the puzzle caches we've done are puzzles closer to letterbox-style clues than not... In fact, one the very hardest of puzzles we've done once the solutions was found didn't even have coordinates at all.

Again, that's not to say one is "better" than the other, just different.

6.4k · June 23, 2004

this weekend i found a letterbox about ten feet from a geocache. i do not know which preceded the other. i did notice that letterboxers went and stamped the geocache book and that the geocachers all signed the letterboxing log as if they were friendly and respectful visitors. nobody has appeard to take the stamp yet.

gc.com does not encourage cachers to be stupid and rude. all the information is there, but if i were a letterboxer, i would make it my business to protect my assets from idiots.

incidentally, i was going to take up letterboxing as well, but i did not like the tone of some of the letterboxing things i was reading. i read somewhere that "letterboxing is just like geocaching for people with brains", and that moment there was the moment where i decided that all of my containers would require gps use in some form.

i like the idea of letterbox style clues. i resent the implication (probably not made by anybody here) that a geocache is necessarily less clever or less demanding.

i have also accidentally found some other containers from other games. i always sign in. i never take things without knowing the rules. sometimes i leave something as a gift in tribute.

Flask, if you are talking about the cache I think you are, I can assure you the cache came well before the letterbox. As a matter of fact, the letterbox just happened to show up the same time the cache got muggled. Considering the 2 boxes are actually more like 5ft apart, and both in obvious (to a cacher or LBer) hiding places, it's hard to imagine the person who hid the LB didn't find the cache, and perhaps not being aware of geocaching, took it with them. It's not the first time I've seen where a LBer has placed a box very close to an existing geocache either. Perhaps we should be complaining that the LB site doesn't educate boxers about geocaches, or make people check to see if they are placing a LB on top of a cache. I guess there are really clueless people everywhere.

4.7k · June 23, 2004

CR, i get all that. i did my homework and i understand the differences. it was just that remark (which i read many more times than once) and the april fools page that made me not want to do it. i was all set to put out some letterboxes (i live in a letterbox-poor region) up until that.

i love to incorporate puzzles and clues, and some of my favorite caches only appear to include coordinates at all so they can be listed as geocaches.

i understand the thing about a handmade stamp; until i decided not to letterbox i had collected some stamp making material and made some preliminary sketches, so i do have some understanding of what is involved. the idea of the stamp is very attractive to me.

i also get and like your explanation of "front" or "end" loading. i think it's possible to stack both kinds of containers either way if you want.

a GOOD geocache will often take as much thought and energy, although it is easier to make a cheap cache and easier (probably) to find an easy cache.

i thought that maybe i didn't want some attitudinally challenged people to keep me from enjoying an activity, but it's an activity that's primarily underdeveloped in my area, and i could just as easily put that same energy into placing geocaches. i'm working on something that uses some very intricate letterbox-style clues. the trick for me is how to involve coordinates so as to make it a geocache.

i thought of trying to develop a leterboxing base here, but the april fool page (on which the thing about geocaching for people with brains appeared) made me think twice.

short version, i think it was a bad idea for LbNA to make jokes at geocaching's expense in much the same way as i would be offended if USCF (united states cycling federation) made jokes on an official forum about NORBA (national off road biking association). if i had not yet started road riding, i would think twice. granted, roadies often are snobby about mountain bikes, but their national sanctioning organizations do not engage in this behavior.

it would be unfair for shuffleboarders to categorically declare that curling requires less skill. similar sports, different skills. not fair to snipe.

please understand CR, that i am not suggesting for a moment that you are part of the problem. nothing i have read coming from you indicates to me that you are either stupid or rude. i am also not advocating a position that geocaching is somehow more important or better than letterboxing. i really wish i were a bigger person than to have felt insulted by a handful of idiots, but for the time being i'm lost to that activity and i'm not doing it.

i still haven't thrown out my stamp supplies, though. at some point i may feel as if i (as a geocacher) am welcomed to the assemblage and put together those stamps after all.

it would be lovely if more people were like that collection of folks i saw last weekend who happily and politely signed and/or stamped both books.

and i will stand by my original point that your right to have a valid opinion is not predicated on your bias for or against one activity. as for clueless newbies, i think nobody really criticizes the true clueless newbie. it's the WILLFUL clueless newbie that irritates people.

anyway, the thing about the attitude isn't really the meat and potatoes here. it's incidental, but it's been bugging me and this is where i decided to make my little rant.

38.2k · June 23, 2004

thought that maybe i didn't want some attitudinally challenged people to keep me from enjoying an activity, but it's an activity that's primarily underdeveloped in my area, and i could just as easily put that same energy into placing geocaches. i'm working on something that uses some very intricate letterbox-style clues. the trick for me is how to involve coordinates so as to make it a geocache.

i thought of trying to develop a leterboxing base here, but the april fool page (on which the thing about geocaching for people with brains appeared) made me think twice.

Don't let a handful of smug, self satisfied jerks turn you off to Letterboxing. There are similar smug, jerks who geocache (and I'm sure some have turned off potential geocachers). Neither sport has cornered the market on jerks. You're really missing out on a lot of you dismiss letterboxing because of a few bozos. Its a lot of fun and as rewarding as geocaching (and stats are literally worn on your sleeve sometimes, unlike geocaching where people pretend to not care about them).

When you place your caches, don't hesitate to make them letterbox hybrids. Doing so can jumpstart letterboxing in your area. Even though the sport has been around waaaaay longer than geocaching, it doesn't have the foothold geocaching has in this country. Here in NJ, we have 176 letterboxes and almost 2,000 geocaches and I'm sure the gap is wider in many other states. It's as much fun as geocaching and worth a try.

Edited June 23, 2004 by briansnat

4.7k · June 23, 2004

<snip>

Its a lot of fun and as rewarding as geocaching (and stats are literally worn on your sleeve sometimes, unlike geocaching where people pretend to not care about them).

<snip>

ack, brian! i don't want stats on my sleeve, and i don't like to pretend they don't matter. if they wear 'em around, i'm not going. i gave that up a long time ago. i have something around here with all my merit badges on it, but i'm both proud and embarrassed, so i keep it at the back of the clost and never look at it.

i'll get out of bed at 0400 for a FF, but i don't know how many i have. i don't even know for sure how many caches i've found. there's even a logbook or two out there in which i've written: i was never here. you can't prove that i was.

i DO collect signatures, though. i don't know or care how many. i just know that if i don't have your signature item on the wall at my house, i will knock down another cacher to get it.

it's not that i'm noncompetitive; i just don't value the same measurements everyone does.

the other stuff you said makes sense, though. it's very hard to be cheeky at the same time as you register comprehension and appreciation, so i'm not going to try to work it out.

6.4k · June 23, 2004

[ Here in NJ, we have 176 letterboxes and almost 2,000 geocaches and I'm sure the gap is wider in many other states.

I find it interesting that in CT letterboxing is just as popular as geocaching, maybe more so. It's not as easy to total up letterboxes, but there are hundreds more then I feel like counting. The state parks even hide their own letterboxes.

38.2k · June 23, 2004

I find it interesting that in CT letterboxing is just as popular as geocaching, maybe more so. It's not as easy to total up letterboxes, but there are hundreds more then I feel like counting. The state parks even hide their own letterboxes.

I think its because the CT DEP actively promotes letterboxing. They see it as a great way to get people out to enjoy the areas. I wish more states had that attitude. My guess is that they chose letterboxing over geocaching because letterboxing doesn't require "expensive" equipment to participate.

June 28, 2004

Well, it looks like I started a lively thread with my question... I have tried to figure out which cache was near my letterbox but when I entered the zip for Newbury Park, CA I got hundreds of hits. Since I don't own a GPS unit, I have no idea what the coordinates of my letterbox are. Nor would I have been able to check on the location before I hid the box to know if I were hiding it near a cache. So it doesn't seem practical to try to track down the offending geocachers.

I have now made laminated cards saying, "NOT a GEOCACHE" to add to my boxes. (Sigh) Hopefully this will help. I have made a new stamp for the box and will replace it soon. BTW just last week I found a letterbox in MA that had been visited by 11 year old geocachers who took the stamp and left not one but two toys in its place. I would hope that few parents would let their kids go either geocaching or letterboxing without adult supervision and that the adults with them were monitoring their activity at a box or cache.

As for being offended by the April Fools joke at LbNA, I would like to clarify a couple of things. First, the prank was perpetrated by an individual hacker unbeknownst to the webmasters or owners of the site. It was totally tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be taken seriously. Honestly, I thought it was pretty funny. Second, don't let it scare anyone off of letterboxing.

Most of the folks in our community are way cool. They tend to be very friendly, creative and mindful of the environment. Some proudly display their numbers of found and placed letterboxes but there are many of us who scoff at this just as it seems geocachers do. I'm sure both hobbies have a few participants that are elitist snobs. It's just the human condition. Carve those stamps! Hide a letterbox... Funhog

6.5k · June 28, 2004

Well, it looks like I started a lively thread with my question... I have tried to figure out which cache was near my letterbox but when I entered the zip for Newbury Park, CA I got hundreds of hits. Since I don't own a GPS unit, I have no idea what the coordinates of my letterbox are. Nor would I have been able to check on the location before I hid the box to know if I were hiding it near a cache. So it doesn't seem practical to try to track down the offending geocachers.

Thats true, over 3k within 100mi of NEWBURY PARK - 91320. But only a few are likely near your box. Assuming you know what park your box is in you only have to find a listing of those near it... Then check those and see if any of the descriptions say they are in XX park.

Maybe you can used the coord given on one caches in the city on a mapping site. Then you can adjust the coord until you get to the right area. Slow and annoying yes, but it could work.

6.5k · June 28, 2004

I think you box is:

http://www.letterboxing.org/BoxView.asp?bo...ebe's_Cabin

so I read that, then used mapquest to find the town and follow driving directions (not distances where given for the actual walking so I couldn't follow along). Then I used the gc.com maps to zoom and pan to about the same spot and starting checking descriptions. I the cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt=

is in the somewhat same area. Or aleast least they talk about an old cabin and the danielson person...

hope this helps

June 28, 2004

I've just looked throught this thread, and I've looked at letterboxing sites. I have to say what I've seen really puts me off of letterboxing. Unless I'm missing something (Always possible, in which case I apologise profusely) it seems to me that letterboxers seem to have a real downer on geocachers. There seems to be some kind of elitism among letterboxers that I find quite repugnant. I've seen the 'letterboxing is for geocachers with brains' and I find that highly insulting. Some of the most intelligent people I know are geocachers. CR seems to think that all the problems with regards to geocacheing and letterboxing have to be fixed by geocachers. What's wrong with letterboxers putting notes on bags for their stamps, we put notes in our caches to let people know what they are, it's a simple, small thing to do. It really annoys me to see someone who should probably know better (he does after all geocache and letterbox) seem to put all the blame on one party. There are two groups involved in this. As for the info on gc.com, I started a month ago and I had no problem at all in understanding the info in the way it was presented to me. I didn't find it confusing or illogical at all, so to see gc.com being blamed for not presenting info in a clear way is also totally unfair. All it takes is a note to explain what something is, where is the problem with that. Of all the geocachers I know, I don't know one who would take something from a bag that is labeled PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS. How simple mis that?

7.2k · June 28, 2004

Some of the most intelligent people I know are geocachers.

Many of the most intelligent geocachers I know are letterboxers as well.

As for the info on gc.com, I started a month ago and I had no problem at all in understanding the info in the way it was presented to me.

If the information is presented in such a clear manner, then why is the Getting Started filled with repeated questions?

All it takes is a note to explain what something is, where is the problem with that.

In the very first post in this very thread the author stated the box was clearly marked as a letterbox on the outside. Folks, if they paid attention to what they were doing, would know it wasn't a geocache without even opening the container! So letterboxers, because of the failure of gc.com (note I said gc.com not geocachers or the geocaching community) to properly indocrinate newcomers, have to change their ways? Please!

Purhaps you don't know, but there has been an unpleasant history between gc.com and the LbNA. Might want to search up on that to understand, but here's a hint: Irish started copying the letterbox clues to his site without permission. Imagine the response. Folks over there still remember it.

Edited June 28, 2004 by CoyoteRed

June 28, 2004

Many thanks, Welch, for doing the groundwork on the location of my box for me. I just checked the links and as I suspected, there is no entry for any finders seeking the nearby cache on the date of their visit to my letterbox. They only signed in using first names, no trail name or contact info. Rats!

I hate to see folks fueling the flames of dissent between letteboxers and geocachers. My guess is that the two hobbies generally attract two different kinds of people: left brain and right brain thinkers. One is more techno oriented and the other more artsy... Neither is better, just different. I look at my letterbox finds as a collection of folk art which might hold absolutely no interest for someone else. One of the things I really love about letterboxing is that you can actively participate when you're at home, too. I often carve stamps, bind logbooks and research puzzling clues when I'm not on the trail.

I have several letterbox buddies who enjoy both pastimes. One lives in a state where there are only 40 letterboxes but hundreds of caches. Since both hobbies get you out of the house, away from the computer and moving assorted body parts, he does both. They are certainly not mutually exclusive. In fact, one of my very favorite letterbox clues is to a geocache hybrid in Omaha Nebraska, the Bellevue Loop Cache.

Keep in mind the words of Rodney King (or Inky Drone, if I were writing a letterbox clue.) Funhog

June 28, 2004

Well...I must share with the primaries in this discussion string that, unfortunately, I have just discovered that the conflicts, frustrations, anger, and occassional rants one finds in the pressures of everyday life have also made their way into what could be a positive, fellowship-filled hobby of geocaching...or letterboxing...take your pick.

This is my first visit to this website...and it was done hoping to find enlightening information and to learn from those who have been out there...having "fun"...either by themselves, with a friend...or with their kids (like me). My wife, kids, and I stepped into the geocaching world this past weekend...and had a great time. I was able to forgot about most of life's troubles...didn't even think about the economy...or the soldiers dying in Iraq.

Reading the discussion reminded me that yes, even with something as wholesome as geocaching, human nature can create negative out of positive.

My most sincere advice is this...take the experience of caching or boxing for what it is...time to enjoy the outdoors...not relying on much more than a decent GPS, a little stamina...and fair eyesight. Enjoy the freedom...enjoy the time. Note that this advice is from someone who has only found 6 caches. I'm not a charter member...not close to being an expert...but I do know that the experience outdoors, working together with friends or family, searching for a site that is only known by the cache-owner and a couple satellites overhead...and then actually finding what you were looking for...gives you a few moments of accomplishment that is totally independent of any paycheck or employer-driven tasking.

I'm not one who devotes hour after hour to reading and responding to bulletin boards. But...for some reason...I had to take a moment after a long day at work to share my thoughts here.

As for negative histories between cachers and boxers...please...life is too short.

Find the positive...and talk positively about improving the negative...the world will be a much better place...for cachers and boxers...

38.2k · June 29, 2004

My most sincere advice is this...take the experience of caching or boxing for what it is...time to enjoy the outdoors...not relying on much more than a decent GPS, a little stamina...and fair eyesight. Enjoy the freedom...enjoy the time. Note that this advice is from someone who has only found 6 caches. I'm not a charter member...not close to being an expert...but I do know that the experience outdoors, working together with friends or family, searching for a site that is only known by the cache-owner and a couple satellites overhead...and then actually finding what you were looking for...gives you a few moments of accomplishment that is totally independent of any paycheck or employer-driven tasking.

I'm not one who devotes hour after hour to reading and responding to bulletin boards. But...for some reason...I had to take a moment after a long day at work to share my thoughts here.

As for negative histories between cachers and boxers...please...life is too short.

Find the positive...and talk positively about improving the negative...the world will be a much better place...for cachers and boxers...

Word of advice. Do NOT venture into the general Geocaching Topics forum.

4.7k · June 29, 2004

<snip>

As for being offended by the April Fools joke at LbNA, I would like to clarify a couple of things. First, the prank was perpetrated by an individual hacker unbeknownst to the webmasters or owners of the site. It was totally tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be taken seriously. Honestly, I thought it was pretty funny. Second, don't let it scare anyone off of letterboxing.

Most of the folks in our community are way cool. They tend to be very friendly, creative and mindful of the environment. Some proudly display their numbers of found and placed letterboxes but there are many of us who scoff at this just as it seems geocachers do. I'm sure both hobbies have a few participants that are elitist snobs. It's just the human condition. Carve those stamps! Hide a letterbox... Funhog

hey funhog, i'm really glad to hear it wasn't the official line. i'm much happier to hearit, and i'm much happier to hear opinions like yours.

me, i'm an arty type myself. i'm not terribly good with numbers, but i sure can whack the heck out of a word puzzle.

i think probably it's one more thing i'll not get involved in; i am predisposed to like bicycle polo, and yet i never go play. there are only so many days a week i can commit to being in one place.

Geocache/letterbox Issue

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