Cheaters !! Black List

38.2k · May 10, 2004

That's possible. Could you humor me and cite some examples?

That would be interesting. I don't recall any posts of that sort either. I do recall a few where someone with zero, or a handful of finds came along and tried to tell us how we should play this game, or run this site and they were advised to get some more experience before making recommendations. That's a far cry from someone boasting about their number of finds.

Edited May 10, 2004 by briansnat

May 10, 2004

Too many people take something like this and turn it into an all-out competition to rack up the biggest numbers. To a casual cacher like myself, there's nothing more distasteful than to have someone make a big deal of the fact that they've found more caches/TBs/Virtuals/Locationless than you, simply to boost their own ego.

Does this ever happen? I've been reading these forums for a year and a half. This site has had personal stats that whole time, and for nearly 2/3s of that time Dan's stat site kept stats that everyone could see. In that whole time I don't recall one instance of this ever happening.

Yes, it does in fact happen. Shortly after moving to Florida, I received some rather taunting e-mails from a cacher I only knew through logbook entries, letting me know that he/she/it was coming up behind me, gonna catch me soon, and eventually, that they had passed me. If I recall correctly, this was accompanied by a good deal of "ha ha ha" type of ranting as well. Very juvenile and unwelcome.

Not the perfect picture of a courteous cacher, and not a very good reflection of our sport. They eventually stopped sending me e-mails (of which I only ever replied to their initial contact), and I can only assume they either moved on to someone else, or acquired a clue.

7.2k · May 10, 2004

About the only way to really do away with cheating is to remove the mechanism for cheating.

Remove the logs. Show no tallies to anyone other than the owner. Implement a feedback mechanism for reporting cache condition. Implement an ignore feature for caches you've done or don't want to do. Implement a weblog feature so cachers can record their adventures.

Of course, I see a whole different cans of worms, but it sure removes the reason to simply increase that worthless number called a find count.

7.2k · May 10, 2004

Then someone hasn't been paying attention.

That's possible. Could you humor me and cite some examples?

I should have mentioned I was referring to the "all-out competition" part.

But, I can make a point of one particular cacher who doesn't have to come here and boost. Other people do it for them and it happens everytime someone asks, "Who's number one?"

'Nuff said.

2.4k · May 10, 2004

The best way to discourage cheating (in my opinion) would be to remove all the found stats from the site...

No, the BEST way to discourage cheating, would be for cache owners to "police" their caches, and delete illegitimate find logs.

May 11, 2004

I am not in this thing for the numbers beit in found caches or forum post but I am in it for a good time and could care less if others are fabricating false find statistics. For me and my children it is getting out and enjoying ourselves and I hardly ever look at what we have accomplished other than to learn from one to help with the next and to wonder which one is that next one.

3.1k · May 11, 2004

The best way to discourage cheating (in my opinion) would be to remove all the found stats from the site...

No, the BEST way to discourage cheating, would be for cache owners to "police" their caches, and delete illegitimate find logs.

I have a couple of cachers who've logged mulitiple finds on a couple of my caches. I did not delete them. I will not delete them either. I just don't care what they do with their own numbers. There isn't going to be a number winner regardless. If they're ok with it I'm not going to enforce my sense of right and wrong on them.

4k · May 11, 2004

yet this apparently doesn't apply to integrity? Hmmm.......

I think every experienced geocacher should be insulted by your accusations. You're painting them with a pretty broad brush.

Actually, it was your comment that their amount of experience has no bearing on their honesty that is the insult I was pointing out with that post. You say experience has no bearing on honesty, but earlier you alluded to the fact that it does have a bearing on integrity. Can you explain the difference?

4k · May 11, 2004

when you cheat, you only cheat yourself out a fun time

Not true, for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread.

I'm guessing this response is referring to someone posting a false find on a cache, and you going out to look for it since there was a recent find, but instead you find out that it has been missing for a long time? Well, are you caching to find a box in the woods, or are you caching to get out and enjoy the hunt? Is it any different to take a nice relaxing walk in the woods and get skunked by a DNF than to take the same nice walk in the woods and get skunked because you're still DNF, but only because it's not there? No difference, as far as I can see. I guess it all boils down to whether you're caching for the experience of getting off your butt and outside, or if you're caching for that elusive dirty golfball and another notch on your find count, right?

7.2k · May 11, 2004

I have a couple of cachers who've logged mulitiple finds on a couple of my caches. I did not delete them. I will not delete them either. I just don't care what they do with their own numbers. There isn't going to be a number winner regardless. If they're ok with it I'm not going to enforce my sense of right and wrong on them.

Probably the single best reason for all stats and public tallies to go away.

Because it's so easy to cheat and a lot of owners will not police their own caches, the numbers end up becoming useless in a comparitive way. However, I'd say most cachers take a while to realize this and have to go through a stage of betrayal. Then they have to learn which cachers are actually honest and which ones are outright cheats. It's all a mess.

I had proposed a while back--if I didn't delete it before actually sending it--that only a cacher's last x number of logs are actually visible, this includes all logs. If 50 is chosen for "x", then you'd only see a cacher's last 50 logs. Certainly enough to tell if they are experienced enough to know if you have to run out or not on a DNF, but none of the numbers will matter after you've made 50 log entries.

I'd say for most the drive to simply increase numbers would be eliminated and for those that aren't, they most likely aren't driven to falsify finds to begin with.

May 11, 2004

I really don't know what to think about this topic. I've observed two people who have logged multiple finds on one of my caches. Is is my duty to delete logs? In both cases, I think it was an honest mistake. I think this honest mistake gets made a lot. You shouldn't be able to post a "find" log more than once on any given cache, but it is quite possible with the current programming. I don't feel like creating animosity by deleting logs which are made by reputable cachers.

On the other hand, I know of a guy not too far from here who likes to log finds on his own caches every time he goes to do maintenance! How appalling!

May 11, 2004

Oh, for heaven's sake. Every time I see: "This is my eleventyhundredth cache of the day!" I wonder if somebody hasn't been taking their Ritalin But, hey, if that makes you happy, fine. Just listen, Quantity Person--if you make me truge around forever looking for an MIA cache you logged as found, I'm gonna be putting the eeeeeevil wamba on you! There's no escaping the evil wamba.

2.7k · May 11, 2004

<snip>I don't mind about what cheaters do, but since I have bee a boyscout for many years, I definitely hate unfair situations.
</snip>

Sorry, I haven't read ALL the posts so this may have already been said, but I sorta picked up on this one point and would like to offer a comment.

It is a shame, but as we grow older we have to put things into perspective and we come to realize that there are just some things that are wrong that we just can't "right".

We live in a fallen world, filled with imperfections and imperfect people. As long as there are imperfect people in the world there will be cheaters.

While it is a laudable goal to take steps to minimize cheating, we must realize that we can't fix the world- not as individuals and, sadly, not even if we all pull together.

I see most attempts at eliminating cheating in geocaching to be fruitless and relatively pointless even though I acknowledge and agree with BrianSnat's points regarding the damage that cheating does.

Wherever there are human beings there will be cheaters. No matter how structured you make a system, no matter how difficult you make it to cheat, there will always be those who consider beating your system to be a challenge. These people will expend far more effort in cheating than they would have spent if they actually got up off their computer chairs and FOUND caches.

It is a tough lesson to learn, especially for altruistic people, which boy scouts, firefighters, youth ministers and other public servants generally are, but we serve our individual and collective "callings" better when we pick our battles (ones that we have a chance of winning).

Then, by winning the small battles, we can truly have an impact on the injustices in the world. An impact, but not a solution.

I don't believe this is a defeatist outlook, but only an honest one.

My2c

GDAE

2.2k · May 11, 2004

don't let's change the way we enjoy the sport just because of some individuals who will cheat and log finds etc that they haven't done. police our own caches and delete logs seems the best way, we should keep eye on caches regularly anyway.

these individuals will keep doing it and will change their id to do it. no real way to stop them so don't try. if you do find someone cheating feel free to out them for all to know.

quite like the idea of passwords in caches. i do think that, on balance, they only cheat themselves. i know they do affect the rest of us, but not as much as some of the solutions being offered. so leave it as it is and keep an eye open for these people.

May 11, 2004

WH wrote:

The day they start issuing prizes for the highest find counts, Ill worry about cheaters. For now, the only people they are cheating, is themselves.

I'm of WH's school of thought. I've been involved in many activities that enticed people to cheat rather than to do. Some have even ruined their enjoyment of a hobby when they get obsessed by numbers and statistics. I have a friend who kept a fishing log. Pretty soon he didn't even bother to go fishing, since it was always a letdown to catch and log 2 actual trout when you'd logged 3 blue marlin the week before, and hadn't even been to the ocean.

The roleplaying spirit of Everquest was ruined by people obsessed by leveling up and becoming uber-powerful. They whined if they "weren't gaining enough experience" when, because of their outlook, they weren't getting any of the enjoyment the actual experience of playing the game offered.

Amateur birdwatchers are probably the most depraved "false loggers" of any sport. Who cares if they false-logged a redheaded nuthatch and I hadn't even heard of one? Well, they cared, and it didn't bother me in the least.

For the negative reasons that many have stated, having a password and a policy of "no tolerance" is probably the most effective method of preventing number nuts from running their find count up. The "no tolerance" rule would prevent the E-mails claiming to have forgotten the code. Also, if these sad individuals take the numbers so seriously, they would not want to help others cheat, thereby allowing someone else to log a fake find when they went through the "inconvenience" of actually geocaching.

So, my vote is for passwords on the front page of every logbook in every cache.

May 11, 2004

It's pretty funny that people will cheat for numbers when there's nothing waiting for you at the end once you get the highest number. Just because you have 5000 finds or have hidden 500 caches doesn't mean a thing to me except that you spent far more in gas and time than I have to do it.

May 11, 2004

So, my vote is for passwords on the front page of every logbook in every cache.

I'm going to try that with my first cache hide and see how it works out.

1.1k · May 11, 2004

Lots of talk about cheating here and from reading the posts, it would indicate that it is a big problem. However, in my area it just doesn't seem to be present, and if it is, it must be very miniscule and unnoticable, and probably no one really bothers to care or notice here. Maybe it's just an American thing, who knows.

I think that each one of us play the game in our own way, so what may be considered wrong or cheating to one person, may not to another. Remember, there are no real set of rules on how to play the game.

I would agree that if someone maliciously posts a Found it Log and didn't even leave their house to find the container, then I would think that's wrong, and most would probably agree, but I am sure that a lot of people accidently select the wrong option (I have seen it happen many times and have done it myself accidently, especially before the Found It default was changed, although I always noticed it and corrected it).

Someone said it's wrong to post multiple finds on a cache...I strongly disagree. On a few caches I have posted 2 finds...why you may ask? Becuase I found the original cache, then it went missing and/or was moved to a new location, so since it was in a new location (far enough away from the original to make it an entirely new experience), it is certainly available to find as new again...and in most cases the owner evens welcomes people to refind it in the new location.

Some people go to find a cache and don't find it (ie, it is most liekly missing), but they still post a find for it, because they feel they found the general location. Although I wouldn't post a find in this situation, I have no problems with them doing so...it's just a game, and really isn't my business how others play it.

Also, maybe someone is disabled and can't get out of the house to actually find a cache, so maybe they try to solve virtual caches from their computer and log them as finds. This may be the only way this person can enjoy the game and I don't think we should take it away from them.

Besides I doubt anyone would go to the trouble to actually log 100 fake finds, if they do, then they have bigger problems...and if they do, who really cares if they are in 108490th place or 112903th place in the overall find stats. And as for people wanting stats, I enjoy them too, but not for competition, but instead for my personal pleasure and goals.

It's all one's own perspective of the game...my views have definately changed since I first started, and I certainly won't lose any sleep if someone plays the game differently than me. It's just a game...to get out of the house, see many new and wonderful places that you never knew existed, to meet new people with similar interests, and just simply put...to have a good time. It's about all this and not whether someone you don't know and probably never will meet choose to put a smiley face on a log instead of a frowny face.

One could also say that cheating would consist of people not trading fairly...placing over 30 caches and seeing existing caches I have come to the conclusion that the majority of people do not trade fairly...they take something and they leave something...The item that they took, made them happy, so that is good. Lets face it, if you find a $20 item in a cache, most people do not carry another $20+ item with them to trade for that. Besides its not about trading, that's just a small aspect of the game.

I've met dozens and dozens of geocachers in my year and a half of caching and each and every one of them are nice and friendly people, and we all try to help eahc other where needed.

...sorry for the long post, but I think it was important to touh on a little bit of everything that has been said in this thread. For anyone that watched Survivor Finale, remember it's just a game.

3.8k · May 11, 2004

[deleted]

Edited May 11, 2004 by robert

38.2k · May 11, 2004

Well, are you caching to find a box in the woods, or are you caching to get out and enjoy the hunt?

Both, and if someone misled me into thinking one was there and it wasn't, I'd be pretty pissed.

Is it any different to take a nice relaxing walk in the woods and get skunked by a DNF

Yes it is because I'm there for the hike and I'm missing out on walking because I'm wasting my time searching for something that is gone. If I DNF because I'm just not observant enough, or because the cache is stolen and nobody knows yet that's one thing, its part of the sport. But if someone to deliberately misleads me into going out there and spending my time poking under rocks, while I could be enjoying a nice hike, that changes things.

Personally, I don't do 5/5, or 4/4 caches because I don't like to spend a lot of time searching, but give me a 1/5, ir 1/4 and I'm there. I like to find the cache quickly when I get to the area and move on, because I'm mostly in it for the hike. Hiking 5 miles, then spending a hour searching isn't my idea of fun and if the cache is gone and someone lied and told me it was there (which is what a "found it" essentially does), that is wrong.

Actually, it was your comment that their amount of experience has no bearing on their honesty that is the insult I was pointing out with that post. You say experience has no bearing on honesty, but earlier you alluded to the fact that it does have a bearing on integrity. Can you explain the difference?

Do you actually have a clue as to what you are referring to, because I certainly don't.

Edited May 11, 2004 by briansnat

2.7k · May 11, 2004

Well, are you caching to find a box in the woods, or are you caching to get out and enjoy the hunt?

Both, and if someone misled me into thinking one was there and it wasn't, I'd be pretty pissed.

If my nephew cries, someone is gonna pay. I gotta go with Briansnat on that point.

May 11, 2004

The best way to discourage cheating (in my opinion) would be to remove all the found stats from the site...

No, the BEST way to discourage cheating, would be for cache owners to "police" their caches, and delete illegitimate find logs.

Bingo. For those "looking for a clue," it couldn't be made any clearer or more concisely.

May 11, 2004

The "no tolerance" rule would prevent the E-mails claiming to have forgotten the code. Also, if these sad individuals take the numbers so seriously, they would not want to help others cheat, thereby allowing someone else to log a fake find when they went through the "inconvenience" of actually geocaching.

So, my vote is for passwords on the front page of every logbook in every cache.

I don't log finds online any more, so I really couldn't care less how much more you people screw up a perfectly simple game, but I'd take wagers that a "password requirement" would cause logbooks worldwide to be stolen (or substituted with logbooks with false passwords as a "joke") within hours of such a rule being implemented.

Edited May 11, 2004 by Bassoon Pilot

38.2k · May 11, 2004

So, my vote is for passwords on the front page of every logbook in every cache.

And what exactly is that going to accomplish that a person signing a logbook won't?

1.3k · May 11, 2004

I'm still waiting for the day when every logbook is actually in the cache and still dry.

Luckily for me, I'm not overly attached to logging my finds online so I don't mind if you add passcode to online logs. I can always provide feedback as notes if I need to and enjoy watching people realize that the problem didn't affect them nearly as much as the solution.

When you have to figure out if that was a "1" or an "l" and if that "0" was an "O" or you leave your book of passcodes at the last cache on vacation, please let me know. I need the laugh. I will also laugh my butt off when a person who suggested this method complains that someone ripped the passcodes out of a logbook and suggests having new guidelines on where the passcode should be located in the cache.

The potential humor value of this really cheers me up.

Edited May 11, 2004 by bons

2.2k · May 11, 2004

No matter what you do and what safeguards you put in place, people will find a way to cheat. But, like previously mentioned, this is just a GAME. If someones idea of enjoying the game is sitting in front of their computer and logging finds on caches theyve never found, how does that diminish my enjoyment? It doesnt.

I enjoy caching and my enjoyment level wont change simply because cacher x has 1000+ finds to my significantly smaller number.

Just go caching and stop worrying about what the other guy does.

38.2k · May 11, 2004

If someones idea of enjoying the game is sitting in front of their computer and logging finds on caches theyve never found, how does that diminish my enjoyment? It doesnt.

Until you have to drive an extra 100 miles to log a locationless because someone logged the one a mile from your house while sitting in front of their computer playing with Photoshop. Or until some cheater logs a fake find on a remote cache that you've been thinking of hitting, but decided to wait until there was a recent find so you could be reasonably sure it is still there.

Or perhaps when you have a maintenance trip planned to one of your caches that that hasn't been found in a while, then you get a fake found it log that says everything is OK, so you decide to focus on some other of your caches instead.

Edited May 11, 2004 by briansnat

May 11, 2004

I'm fairly new around here, but I can't seem to understand people getting all bent out of shape over padding numbers. I don't pad numbers, nor do I want to, but if others do it, they're only cheating themselves. It's kind of like golf. Scoring here's on the honor system. Some people play golf and use mulligans and gimmes. They may say they shot one thing, but they were in essence getting do overs and not having to make that final putt on some holes. Whatever makes them happy. If they weren't doing it in a tournament, no one loses out except maybe them.

Here, it seems even more pointless to worry about cheating. After all, how many caches you find won't win you money or anything. Personally, I feel like I win every time I find one, and I enjoy knowing how many I found, but that's all the numbers really are for me.

38.2k · May 11, 2004

[personal attack, profanity and graphic sexual references deleted]

Edited May 11, 2004 by briansnat

7.2k · May 11, 2004

Clearly some people fail to read the entire thread before offering an opinion.

May 11, 2004

Well, are you caching to find a box in the woods, or are you caching to get out and enjoy the hunt?

Both, and if someone misled me into thinking one was there and it wasn't, I'd be pretty pissed.

If my nephew cries, someone is gonna pay. I gotta go with Briansnat on that point.

Just curious, but does this really happen a lot? I have owned 21 caches. I do look at the logbooks, and ~nobody~ has ever signed the online log without signing the physical logbook. I have never gone looking for a missing cache that was likely last "found" by a cheater.

I have seen geocachers do things I don't agree with, but never an out and out cheater.

Is this really a common issue in other areas? Seems like around here, if someone was doing that they would become "known" quickly enough.

4k · May 11, 2004

Well, are you caching to find a box in the woods, or are you caching to get out and enjoy the hunt?

Both, and if someone misled me into thinking one was there and it wasn't, I'd be pretty pissed.

Is it any different to take a nice relaxing walk in the woods and get skunked by a DNF

Yes it is because I'm there for the hike and I'm missing out on walking because I'm wasting my time searching for something that is gone. If I DNF because I'm just not observant enough, or because the cache is stolen and nobody knows yet that's one thing, its part of the sport. But if someone to deliberately misleads me into going out there and spending my time poking under rocks, while I could be enjoying a nice hike, that changes things.

Personally, I don't do 5/5, or 4/4 caches because I don't like to spend a lot of time searching, but give me a 1/5, ir 1/4 and I'm there. I like to find the cache quickly when I get to the area and move on, because I'm mostly in it for the hike. Hiking 5 miles, then spending a hour searching isn't my idea of fun and if the cache is gone and someone lied and told me it was there (which is what a "found it" essentially does), that is wrong.

Actually, it was your comment that their amount of experience has no bearing on their honesty that is the insult I was pointing out with that post. You say experience has no bearing on honesty, but earlier you alluded to the fact that it does have a bearing on integrity. Can you explain the difference?

Do you actually have a clue as to what you are referring to, because I certainly don't.

Well, after having slept a bit, this explanation does seem to make more sense. Funny thing, sleep.....often it appears as though it's a waste of time, when in reality it is actually a necessity! You've made good points here, Brian, and caused me to rethink some of my other thoughts. That's a good thing, I guess, though I don't often like to admit I was wrong. Crow tastes good,when served up on a platter of intellectually convincing opinions. Thanks.

As for the last part of your post, ummmmm.....I don't really have a clue what that was about anymore.......

4k · May 11, 2004

Oh, for heaven's sake. Every time I see: "This is my eleventyhundredth cache of the day!" I wonder if somebody hasn't been taking their Ritalin But, hey, if that makes you happy, fine. Just listen, Quantity Person--if you make me truge around forever looking for an MIA cache you logged as found, I'm gonna be putting the eeeeeevil wamba on you! There's no escaping the evil wamba.

PLEASE!!!!!!!!! NO EVIL WAMBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May 11, 2004

The best way to discourage cheating (in my opinion) would be to remove all the found stats from the site...

However, I fear the uproar that would cause, so I'll settle for just not making that situation any worse.

Really the stats counter can be ignored just like anything else that people don't like about GeoCaching.

I personally like the counter for my own purpose. I like setting goals for myself. One example for me now is finding a few caches in all the states. Since I'm traveling for my company that has allowed me to find caches in 24 states so far. But like I said it is my own personal goal not a competition. If other cachers are impressed with my caching fine, if not it really doesn't matter.

May 11, 2004

I have nothing against those who do enjoy such activities - more power to them. I just don't enjoy being on the receiving end of the "challenge" when they decide to flaunt their accomplishment in my face and turn GeoCaching into a competitive thing.

Just curious how do others flaunt their accomplishment in your face? In my area there have been fairly new cachers far exceed my count and the only thing that bugs me is that they have hidden quite a few caches which would be a full time job just maintaining them.

May 11, 2004

Other people dont need to know how many caches Ive found.

Sure I do. If you post a DNF on one of my easier caches and I see you have 600 finds, I'll probably get out there right away to check on it. If I see you have 2 finds, I may not be in such a rush to take a look.

I dont care if you have 1000 finds. I wont make a run out to check on a cache of mine unless a few people post DNF's.

When you say that you wouldn't run out to check a DNF by someone with 2 finds and you would for someone with 600 finds, that just reinforces my point about people given more credibility simply because they have a higher find count.

In my book, someone with 2 finds is just as credible as someone with 1000 finds.

I disagree, I feel the more experienced cacher would more than likely find a cache verses someone with only 2 or 3 caches under their belt. The same holds true to hiding caches. The first cache I placed was pretty lame compared to the ones hidden after I had a little more experience finding caches.

4.5k · May 11, 2004

I agree with Briansnat and others to some degree. Someone can cheat and log a find only for it to be really missing and the next honest person not be able to find it. Same with the locationless, someone can cheat and log the find a mile from your house and make you have to drive 100 miles to claim one. These scenarios do happen but im sure NOT all that often.

This is not a life and death issue, but its still a game that as with other games, should be played fair. Ex: Playing a game of cards isnt life altering but if i lose to you and find that you had cheated, yes that would bug me! You can tell me all you want that you could care less, but down inside it does irritate MOST of us to some extent!

This is just another part of our lives, where we have to learn to take the bad with the good. Cant do much about some of this so we just have to keep going and try to do what we know is right!

May 11, 2004

I have nothing against those who do enjoy such activities - more power to them. I just don't enjoy being on the receiving end of the "challenge" when they decide to flaunt their accomplishment in my face and turn GeoCaching into a competitive thing.

Just curious how do others flaunt their accomplishment in your face? In my area there have been fairly new cachers far exceed my count and the only thing that bugs me is that they have hidden quite a few caches which would be a full time job just maintaining them.

I already explained this earlier.

As it doesn't really have anything to do with the thread topic, cheating, I was a bit out of turn to mention it in the first place. Sorry for cluttering up the thread.

Cheaters !! Black List

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