Why Was 'closed Topic' Closed?

[Jeremy]

If you need to be directed to the posts where people are saying they are unhappy with the heavy-handed moderation I doubt that it will help.

I believe I addressed this. There is a moderator policy being worked on to help educate the moderation team. I can only address specific instances of moderation. I cannot box at shadows. If you have a specific on-topic discussion that was unfairly moderated, please point it out. A link would suffice.

 

I'd take this offline, briansnat, but it would just end up back here, or I would be accused of brushing it under the rug.

Edited December 2, 2003 by Jeremy

[+JMBella]

A portion of this thread has devolved into a dialogue between Jeremy and Jomarac5.

 

On this point, the Forum Guidelines state:

Private Discussions: Sometimes, a discussion thread strays off into a friendly dialogue or a heated debate among a very small number of users. For these exchanges, use the private discussion feature that is provided through the Groundspeak forums, or the Geocaching.com e-mail system. Public forum posts should be reserved for matters of interest to the general community

 

[+ChrisCindy]

Perhaps you should go back and read the past few days of posts (including the ones where I was unable to post) instead of trying to brush the issues that you wish to ignore under the carpet.

It seems you have my ear now. I'm not sure what is so difficult about pointing out one complaint to address.

You are not naive, sarcastic yes, naive, no...playing stupid is not becoming.

 

Complaint: How about hypocritical mods who canned everything that is a disagreement with GC and let movie dialog threads that have nothing to do with gc go on for way to long (remember no off geocaching discussions). CO admin gave me a warning for being off topic yet participated in a non-geocaching thread.

 

You gave me a suspension for being "uncivil" yet you are fond of calling people "ankle biters" and "children" which is uncivil. Moderate yourself and maybe people will follow oh fearless leader.

 

And if this looks like I am whining about my own experiences that is because I do not know about others to comment on them, but it seems others have the same complaint in one way or another, because this thread keeps popping up.

[Jomarac5]

Jeremy wrote:

If you have a specific on-topic discussion that was unfairly moderated, please point it out. A link would suffice.

 

<sigh>

 

*****

Edited December 2, 2003 by Jomarac5

[Jeremy]

A portion of this thread has devolved into a dialogue between Jeremy and Jomarac5.

This is a general request. If there is a specific on-topic post that has been improperly modified, I need to know what post that was so I can address it specifically.

 

As I've been told in the past, I speak for Groundspeak. I'm also a poet and don't know it. As a result my posts are considered "policy". As such I need to respond specifically to allegations. Unfortunately there has yet to be a complaint I can respond directly to.

[+Dagg]

Two words

Jerry Springer

[+Criminal]

A portion of this thread has devolved into a dialogue between Jeremy and Jomarac5.

This is a general request. If there is a specific on-topic post that has been improperly modified, I need to know what post that was so I can address it specifically.

 

As I've been told in the past, I speak for Groundspeak. I'm also a poet and don't know it. As a result my posts are considered "policy". As such I need to respond specifically to allegations. Unfortunately there has yet to be a complaint I can respond directly to.

...and a cunning linguist too!

 

Edited December 2, 2003 by Criminal

[Jomarac5]

Chris&Cindy wrote:

You are not naive, sarcastic yes, naive, no...playing stupid is not becoming.

What he said.

 

*****

[+JMBella]

(J&MBella @ Dec 2 2003, 03:31 PM)

A portion of this thread has devolved into a dialogue between Jeremy and Jomarac5. 

 

This is a general request. If there is a specific on-topic post that has been improperly modified, I need to know what post that was so I can address it specifically.

 

As I've been told in the past, I speak for Groundspeak. I'm also a poet and don't know it. As a result my posts are considered "policy". As such I need to respond specifically to allegations. Unfortunately there has yet to be a complaint I can respond directly to.

 

huh?

Edited December 2, 2003 by J&MBella

[+ChrisCindy]

Perhaps you should go back and read the past few days of posts (including the ones where I was unable to post) instead of trying to brush the issues that you wish to ignore under the carpet.

It seems you have my ear now. I'm not sure what is so difficult about pointing out one complaint to address.

You are not naive, sarcastic yes, naive, no...playing stupid is not becoming.

 

Complaint: How about hypocritical mods who canned everything that is a disagreement with GC and let movie dialog threads that have nothing to do with gc go on for way to long (remember no off geocaching discussions). CO admin gave me a warning for being off topic yet participated in a non-geocaching thread.

 

You gave me a suspension for being "uncivil" yet you are fond of calling people "ankle biters" and "children" which is uncivil. Moderate yourself and maybe people will follow oh fearless leader.

 

And if this looks like I am whining about my own experiences that is because I do not know about others to comment on them, but it seems others have the same complaint in one way or another, because this thread keeps popping up.

Here it is...address it.

[Jeremy]

Complaint: How about hypocritical mods who canned everything that is a disagreement with GC and let movie dialog threads that have nothing to do with gc go on for way to long (remember no off geocaching discussions). CO admin gave me a warning for being off topic yet participated in a non-geocaching thread.

Which posts were canned because of a disagreement with GC? As I've written in the past week we are no strangers to criticisms.

 

I can't respond to the off-topic discussion. I didn't see it. If you could send me a link I'd appreciate it. I've been working on the travel bug section of the web site and haven't had a chance to read the forums.

 

You gave me a suspension for being "uncivil" yet you are fond of calling people "ankle biters" and "children" which is uncivil.

 

You personally attacked people (several times). I was making generalizations, just like if you were to call people who steal thieves. As with the term freeloader, if you feel you are a freeloader you are. If you don't you aren't. Same goes for muckrakers or anklebiters.

 

It seems others have the same complaint in one way or another, because this thread keeps popping up.

 

By the same people, it seems.

Edited December 2, 2003 by Jeremy

[+El Diablo]

There are a great number of people who seem (based on the threads and posts) to be upset with the way things are being conducted at GC.com.

Like what? Quit being melodramatic.

He's not being melodramatic -- what he says is true. A lot of people are upset -- a lot more than you are recognizing. Ignoring people is not going to make the problem go away.

 

*****

J5...you are right on!! Ignoring certain people isn't going to make the problem go away. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

El Diablo

[Keystone]

Jeremy, the thread being referred to as the "movie dialog thread" is over here. Rather than being off-topic, early contributors to that thread quoted dialogue from a movie as an analogy for use by the forum community.... i.e., "Lighten up, Francis." When the discussion eventually turned into a long series of quotes of other material from the same funny movie, the topic had run its course, and CO Admin closed it.

 

The threads which were closed or deleted, and the posts which were deleted, in the last several days were closed or deleted because of violations of one or more Forum Guidelines. One common sense rule to follow: If a topic is posted, and degenerates into squabbling and name-calling to the point where a moderator closes it, then the immediate opening of a duplicate thread on much the same subject would also be closed or deleted. Closing a topic is designed, in part, for everyone to take a break and calm down.

 

Everyone ought to take a break and calm down.

Edited December 2, 2003 by Keystone Approver

[+Gorak]

Are you saying I should ignore non-paying customers' opinions, criticisms, etc? Maybe you can delve deeper into this so I understand what you believe should change.

 

Geocaching.com as a web site and service is functional as a free site. All input is encouraged as long as it is constructive.

Not at all. What I'm trying to say is that a customer should always be treated like a customer regardless of the context in which you are interacting with them. If you consider someone to be a customer, and treat them as such, "where spending money is concerned", then they should also be considered a customer, and treated as such, in the services you provide where spending money is not concerned. Both sides of your business are inextricably intertwined. I doubt that many people think of Geocaching.com and Groundspeak as two different entities.

 

Non-paying customers are still customers or, at the very least, potential customers. Unfortunately it only makes good business sense to treat them with the same attitude and respect that you would a paying customer.

 

There is an old business axiom that, in a nutshell, states: It costs 10x as much to gain a new customer as it does to keep and existing customer. It only makes good business sense to treat all of your customers like you would want to be treated by another business, regardless of whether or not you agree with them or how you feel about them personally. Having spent many, many years in the customer support industry, we often joke that work would be so much easier if it weren't for all those dadgum customers. Customers are demanding and often rude or disrespectful. However, at the end of the day, it is those demanding, rude and disrespectful customers that allow you to collect a paycheck.

 

As much as many of your very witty comebacks make me laugh, I don't think they do much to foster good customer relations beyond their entertainment value.

 

Is this any clearer? If not, I would be happy to discuss this in more depth with you via PM.

[Jomarac5]

Jeremy wrote:

Which posts were canned because of a disagreement with GC?

There were several of my posts (and a few from others as well) that were deleted nearly as fast as they were posted in several on-topic discussions about the policies. Those posts just dissappeared. If they still existed I'd forward a link to you but since they no longer exist, I can't.

 

But you already know that don't you?

 

*****

[Jeremy]

When the discussion eventually turned into a long series of quotes of other material from the same funny movie, the topic had run its course, and CO Admin closed it.

Thanks. I appreciate the background. Is there another side to this story? It looks as though it was handled thoughtfully.

 

What was the specific Geocaching.com complaint thread that was canned?

[+ChrisCindy]

Complaint: How about hypocritical mods who canned everything that is a disagreement with GC and let movie dialog threads that have nothing to do with gc go on for way to long (remember no off geocaching discussions). CO admin gave me a warning for being off topic yet participated in a non-geocaching thread.

Which posts were canned because of a disagreement with GC? As I've written in the past week we are no strangers to criticisms.

 

I can't respond to the off-topic discussion. I didn't see it. If you could send me a link I'd appreciate it. I've been working on the travel bug section of the web site and haven't had a chance to read the forums.

 

You gave me a suspension for being "uncivil" yet you are fond of calling people "ankle biters" and "children" which is uncivil.

 

You personally attacked people (several times). I was making generalizations, just like if you were to call people steal thieves. As with the term freeloader, if you feel you are a freeloader you are. If you don't you aren't. Same goes for muckrakers or anklebiters.

 

It seems others have the same complaint in one way or another, because this thread keeps popping up.

 

By the same people, it seems.

Which posts were canned because of a disagreement with GC? As I've written in the past week we are no strangers to criticisms.

 

I will post those in a sec when I accumulate them.

 

 

You personally attacked people (several times). I was making generalizations, just like if you were to call people steal thieves. As with the term freeloader, if you feel you are a freeloader you are. If you don't you aren't. Same goes for muckrakers or anklebiters.

 

I wasn't aiming that at "people" I was talking to you. I said several things to YOU not other people and they were no worse then what you have to say about other people.

 

And as for stealing goes, did you invent the concept of hiding a cache and then finding it with a GPS while posting the coords online? I understand taking others ideas is part of business but you can't claim this concept as your own when the history on the web page says it isn't.

 

 

By the same people, it seems.

 

Nothing has been resolved.

[+ChrisCindy]

When the discussion eventually turned into a long series of quotes of other material from the same funny movie, the topic had run its course, and CO Admin closed it.

Thanks. I appreciate the background. Is there another side to this story? It looks as though it was handled thoughtfully.

 

What was the specific Geocaching.com complaint thread that was canned?

But why was it not canned from the get go as it had nothing to do with geocaching...or was it because it was against those that were upset? CO Admin should never have posted in that thread, in an off geocaching topic way, because that undermines his/her stand on moderating topics. How can you mod one non gc topic yet post in another?

Edited December 2, 2003 by Chris&Cindy

[Keystone]

Jeremy, I edited my post above to reiterate why threads critical of Geocaching.com and the moderators were deleted. I would also like to link back to this post which summarized my reasoning at the time these actions were occurring.

[+Criminal]

How come every time we post, the thread gets closed?

 

Gallant wants to kiss you

 

No I don’t! Shut up!

 

You shut up!

 

[+ChrisCindy]

If you need to be directed to the posts where people are saying they are unhappy with the heavy-handed moderation I doubt that it will help.

I believe I addressed this. There is a moderator policy being worked on to help educate the moderation team. I can only address specific instances of moderation. I cannot box at shadows. If you have a specific on-topic discussion that was unfairly moderated, please point it out. A link would suffice.

 

I'd take this offline, briansnat, but it would just end up back here, or I would be accused of brushing it under the rug.

I tried to take this offline with you by sending you two emails including one with my phone number. No reply.

Edited December 3, 2003 by Chris&Cindy

[Jeremy]

I wasn't aiming that at "people" I was talking to you. I said several things to YOU not other people and they were no worse then what you have to say about other people.

So you admit to personal attacks. Perhaps you missed that part of the forum guidelines.

 

And as for stealing goes, did you invent the concept of hiding a cache and then finding it with a GPS while posting the coords online? I understand taking others ideas is part of business but you can't claim this concept as your own when the history on the web page says it isn't.

 

I never said I invented the hobby. It would help your case a bit more if you could cease your personal attacks.

 

Nothing has been resolved.

 

Not to your liking. I'm not sure if it ever will.

[+woodsters]

You personally attacked people (several times). I was making generalizations, just like if you were to call people who steal thieves. As with the term freeloader, if you feel you are a freeloader you are. If you don't you aren't. Same goes for muckrakers or anklebiters.

 

If I remember right, you didn't say if you feel you are an ankle biter then you are one. I believe you spoke in reference as to calling people ankle biters and then summed it up later as it was in reference to those acting like children. Either way if you say people are acting like children or calling them ankle biters, is it any different than other personal attacks when people call others losers, crybabies and etc?

 

I believe you know exactly what all the unrest is about as well as what problems and posts people are talking about. Pull the moderator logs and look at them. I'm sure you will know exactly what happens or has happened. It's the same stuff as last week and the week before that.

[+ChrisCindy]

I wasn't aiming that at "people" I was talking to you. I said several things to YOU not other people and they were no worse then what you have to say about other people.

So you admit to personal attacks. Perhaps you missed that part of the forum guidelines.

 

And as for stealing goes, did you invent the concept of hiding a cache and then finding it with a GPS while posting the coords online? I understand taking others ideas is part of business but you can't claim this concept as your own when the history on the web page says it isn't.

 

I never said I invented the hobby. It would help your case a bit more if you could cease your personal attacks.

 

Nothing has been resolved.

 

Not to your liking. I'm not sure if it ever will.

You skate around the issues with sarcasim then suspend the people so you never have to deal with the problems.

 

You attack people more often then I do, how about suspending yourself.

 

You are not trying to deal with stuff you are just asking questions and giving sarcastic answers to avoid the problem.

[+geospotter]

A short time after the chat room started I visited several times. The conversation rarely included anything about geocaching and was governed by a handful of people. At times it seemed like grade school. Ask a geocaching question and it was generally ignored. It may be about geocaching now, I don't know, I stopped going.

 

Eventually, this same sort of attitude started to occur in the forums. It has driven a number of cachers away from the forums. Many cachers whose opinions I admire refuse to participate in the forums. Too bad. I think the community as a whole loses because of it.

 

J5 and others, you say that there are so many people complaining about heavy-handedness. To me, it's the same handful of people who complain about everything here. A lot of posts does not mean a lot of posters.

 

Childish behavior in the forums is what warranted the 'adult supervision' of the moderators. No childish behavior, no moderation. It's pretty simple.

 

If you've got something to say about geocaching, please say it. If you got something to say about something else, please say it somewhere else.

 

Can I get a 'bozo' button now? Please?

Edited December 3, 2003 by geospotter

[Broncoholics]

All I know, is Casey and I hid a new cache over the weekend, it was found today! That just made my day. All the time and energy that went into it paid off.

How sweet it is.............

 

Upinyachit

[+ChrisCindy]

A short time after the chat room started I visited several times. The conversation rarely included anything about geocaching and was governed by a handful of people. At times it seemed like grade school. Ask a geocaching question and it was generally ignored. It may be about geocaching now, I don't know, I stopped going.

 

Eventually, this same sort of attitude started to occur in the forums. It has driven a number of cachers away from the forums. Many cachers whose opinions I admire refuse to participate in the forums. Too bad. I think the community as a whole loses because of it.

 

J5 and others, you say that there are so many people complaining about heavy-handedness. To me, it's the same handful of people who complain about everything here. A lot of posts does not mean a lot of posters.

 

Childish behavior in the forums is what warranted the 'adult supervision' of the moderators. No childish behavior, no moderation. It's pretty simple.

 

If you've got something to say about geocaching, please say it. If you got something to say about something else, please say it somewhere else.

 

Can I get a 'bozo' button now? Please?

I do go to a place where I talk about non geocaching things here. I have never said anything bad to a mod and never had anything there edited, or deleted. I have nothing to complain about with that forum as the mods let you be human. Here is should be "repeat after me". I just happen to voice it where others don't there for I am labeled the "bad guy".

[+Criminal]

All I know, is Casey and I hid a new cache over the weekend, it was found today! That just made my day. All the time and energy that went into it paid off.

How sweet it is.............

 

Upinyachit

What is this "geocaching" of which you speak? Sounds like fun.

[+woodsters]

Can I get a 'bozo' button now? Please?

Yes you may... just kidding ya..

 

Some moderation is needed. Off topic posts are not harmful. Ones that attack others, calls them names, profane and etc., I can see as being moderated. Being silly or going off topic, no, unless it includes those above things. Closing a thread is not needed, except for the scammer who's thread was deleted about getting rich quick and other ones like that. But otherwise, I see no need in it. Cut off the abusers, not those enjoying the service....

[+ShaneN4Girls]

Jerry Springer would pay top dollar for this GOLD...

[+robert]

How many of the closed threads were actually relevant and had any redeeming value? You can EASILY count the closed threads that were starting trouble and you can easily point out the posts that were asking for warnings.

 

If people stopped griping about everything and quit making snide remarks, this would happen. Every time certain people post something, it adds fuel to the fire. It makes the moderators defensive, makes Jeremy cranky, and locks threads down.

 

If people would just understand that the rules are the rules, give them a try for once, and see how it goes. I'll bet the hand would be a lot less heavy and things can get back to "where they were" before.

 

Anyone willing to try it?

Edited December 3, 2003 by mrkablooey

[+El Diablo]

A short time after the chat room started I visited several times. The conversation rarely included anything about geocaching and was governed by a handful of people. At times it seemed like grade school. Ask a geocaching question and it was generally ignored. It may be about geocaching now, I don't know, I stopped going.

 

Eventually, this same sort of attitude started to occur in the forums. It has driven a number of cachers away from the forums. Many cachers whose opinions I admire refuse to participate in the forums. Too bad. I think the community as a whole loses because of it.

 

J5 and others, you say that there are so many people complaining about heavy-handedness. To me, it's the same handful of people who complain about everything here. A lot of posts does not mean a lot of posters.

 

Childish behavior in the forums is what warranted the 'adult supervision' of the moderators. No childish behavior, no moderation. It's pretty simple.

 

If you've got something to say about geocaching, please say it. If you got something to say about something else, please say it somewhere else.

 

Can I get a 'bozo' button now? Please?

You summed it up nicely. I'll try to find you a bozo button.

 

El Diablo

[+robert]

He's not being melodramatic -- what he says is true. A lot of people are upset -- a lot more than you are recognizing. Ignoring people is not going to make the problem go away.

However the people that are upset are NOT going about correcting it in the proper way.

 

On another note, how many people are NOT upset yet don't voice that opinion? Which is the higher percentage?

[+robert]

A short time after the chat room started I visited several times. The conversation rarely included anything about geocaching and was governed by a handful of people. At times it seemed like grade school. Ask a geocaching question and it was generally ignored. It may be about geocaching now, I don't know, I stopped going.

 

Eventually, this same sort of attitude started to occur in the forums. It has driven a number of cachers away from the forums. Many cachers whose opinions I admire refuse to participate in the forums. Too bad. I think the community as a whole loses because of it.

 

J5 and others, you say that there are so many people complaining about heavy-handedness. To me, it's the same handful of people who complain about everything here. A lot of posts does not mean a lot of posters.

 

Childish behavior in the forums is what warranted the 'adult supervision' of the moderators. No childish behavior, no moderation. It's pretty simple.

 

If you've got something to say about geocaching, please say it. If you got something to say about something else, please say it somewhere else.

 

Can I get a 'bozo' button now? Please?

You win a prize.

[+GrizzlyJohn]

I will say that I have never been one to shy away from being critical of GC. But in all fairness I do have to add that I have never had a post deleted for my comments.

 

That said, I think the responses (or nonrespons) we have seen here from Jeremy are fairly typical.

 

I also have to point out that when the forums were being fixed and the new hardware was being described part of the update on that said, "Your subscription dollars at work:".

 

Still just shaking my head.

[ju66l3r]

This sort of relates to a thread that has been closed and been denied before: The Off-topic Forum.

 

Granted, it doesn't promote geocaching and flies in the face of every reason Jeremy quotes for wanting a forum for this site at all...but it would be the perfect pressure release system.

 

It would simply be an unmoderated (or at most deletion of the obscene/criminally offensive stuff ... no not "Criminal"-ly offensive) hole for the forums. Wander at your own risk, always wear a flame-proof suit, no holds barred, who cares what's being posted....and so on.

 

Any post in the General forum that didn't amount to "Cemetery's make good cache sites" can be moved there and left to die in solitude....or thrive amongst the fudge-throwing monkeys that inhabit the OffTopic Pit of Stupidity.

 

The point being that most people who are mad that topics are being closed would probably be fine if the topic was moved and the fact that the forum would come pre-captioned with an "Enter at your Own Risk" label would keep out the easily-offended and you wouldn't get complaints when something even semi-ugly started to go down in a thread (which is what has given rise to the recent moderation levels....the complaints, not the semi-ugly stuff actually).

 

I think there's only upside to making a hole like this to stuff these ugly pigeons when they rise up in the clean forums. Up until now this was not seen as important because of the reasons for why the forums exist, but maybe the answer to keeping the forums in that stellar happy-go-lucky state is to provide a special little sandbox on the side with big cement walls where if you get hit by flying sand, you shouldn't have opened the door in the first place. Continuing a fairly tight leash policy in the forums as they stand now to force somewhat off-beat topics to die a quick death is just suffocating the dogs....be they mutts or show-poodles.

 

Alright, I'm out of metaphors....feel free to break out the canned "there will be no off-topic forum now or in the future" response....but I still think it's a valid point.

 

PS - I'd be willing to host/mod one if it could be linked into the same user database and topics could be moved to it from the "clean" forums....but hosting my own off-site with no validation of user IDs from this site and no way of moving topics into it from these forums would not provide the same utility or user draw and would be absolutely useless to cure what ails here.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

As the author of the "movie dialog thread" I would just like to point out two subsequent posts I made regarding that thread. My posts are in bold.

One was in the thread:

QUOTE (pnew @ Dec 1 2003, 02:47 AM)

Hey Corp of Discovery are you asking people to flame you for what you said in this topic or what. If so..... ... .. . ...... ... .. .... ... why?

 

Just wanted to make a comment about the last fews days on here and hopefully do my bit to deflate things a bit. I used the "flame on" because with the way things have been I 1/2 expected to get flamed just by trying to lighten things up, so it was basically an acknowledgement that it might happen.

 

The other was in another thread in response to a post that questioned it's relation to anything to do with geocaching:

 

QUOTE (Chris&Cindy @ Dec 1 2003, 08:41 AM)

QUOTE (Bloencustoms @ Nov 30 2003, 07:23 PM)

I tell you what, some people even complain about the birthday and Christmas gifts they recieve.

 

To me this appears as a complaint.

 

As for stateing your opinion that is what I am trying to save at this site. It is getting to the point where the new folks can't say anything without getting edited, or suspended for being non geocaching related while the mods involve themselves in dialogs about Bill Murry movies, which have nothing to do with goecaching at all. A little lop sided I think.

 

It is almost like the Geofarts get away with the stuff and the "newbies" pay for the same conduct.

 

I am pretty sure the thread you mentioned is mine. I think it has as much to do with geocaching as any on here, certainly some of the threads that have been locked. I was trying to remind EVERYONE that it the end this past time is supoosed to be FUN, and with all the BS going on sometimes it is a lot less fun. If the satellites that enable us to do our thing fell out of the sky tonite, the world WILL go on, if GC.com folded next week the world WILL go on, hence my thread is a reminder that maybe sometimes we ALL just need to LIGHTEN UP!

 

Flame On!

Cache On!

 

Note also the first post in my thread :

 

Psycho:The name's Francis Sawyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

Leon: Ooooooh.

Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. Also, I don't like no one touching my stuff. So just keep your meathooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. And I don't like nobody touching me. Any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.

Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

 

 

 

Maybe we should all take the sarges advice.

 

As usual this is not directed at any particular person etc etc.

 

Flame on!

 

I specifically state that it is NOT directed at ANY PARTICULAR PERSON, and that in one of my other posts I was saying that it was directed at EVERYONE and that we ALL need to lighten up! This meant what it said: users admins mods etc. I think everyone who replied got it, if you got it and didn't reply good, if you didn't get it thats good too. (That's ME lightening up) The thread did end up getting locked. Am I gonna cry about it? No. Am I gonna reopen another thread saying the same thing? No. It said what it said and was not being any more helpful. End of story. This thread we are in is another in a long line of threads saying much the same thing. Not all the other threads were closed. Some that needed to be closed were, some that were closed IMO should not have been and there are some open threads IMO that should be closed. Will screaming and crying and complaining over and over again bend GC.com to MY will? No. Will it kill me? No. Will the world end? No. I will now end my rant and return you to the regularly scheduled one.

 

CACHE ON!

LIGHTEN UP!

Edited December 3, 2003 by Corp Of Discovery

[+bons]

For humor value read the Francis thread to the very end, and then read this thread. The irony was killing me.

Edited December 3, 2003 by bons

[+ChrisCindy]

For humor value read the Francis thread to the very end, and then read this thread. The irony was killing me.

Wow, and how many suspensions will come from that? 0.

[+Bloencustoms]

Lighten up, Francis!

[+ChrisCindy]

Lighten up, Francis!

Man I got your Franc...never mind.

[+ChrisCindy]

For humor value read the Francis thread to the very end, and then read this thread. The irony was killing me.

Wow, and how many suspensions will come from that? 0.

He still makes a good point though.

[+Renegade Knight]

He's not being melodramatic -- what he says is true. A lot of people are upset -- a lot more than you are recognizing. Ignoring people is not going to make the problem go away.

However the people that are upset are NOT going about correcting it in the proper way.

 

On another note, how many people are NOT upset yet don't voice that opinion? Which is the higher percentage?

We have a geocaching.com forum to discuss suggestions for the site. We have a general forum for every thing else. We have email to bring up issues with the person approving your cache directly.

 

Where better to go to solve problems?

 

By the way. I just counted 6 closed and lock topics in the "hottest topics" of the general forums. It's a problem no matter how you sugercoat it.

 

Here are the options that I can up up with off the top of my head.

 

1) The problem could be "gripers" but the "known troublemakers" seem to still be posting. That must not be it.

 

2) The problem could be that the topics have strayed off topic but poeple were posting and not getting warnings for straying off topic. So that must not be it.

 

3) The bulk of closed topics started out fine. So the topics themselves are not the problem.

 

4) The word heavy handed comes up a lot. So does praise for the mods. There is potential here for the problem but the evidence is 50/50 give or take 20%. Presidets normally have an approval rating in the 50% zone so lets call it a wash.

 

5) Whats left is the reasons topics are closed. Since individuals are not getting warnings for 1 and 2 but topics are being closed anyway I submit that the real problem is that rules that should not be enforced are being enforced. Either that or go back to Number 4.

 

As for percentages of content vs. want to see positive changes it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the pendulum is swinging away from content. The farther it swings the more people who you would not label as extremists join the ranks of the ones who would like to see change.

[Jomarac5]

Excellent post RK.

 

Perhaps everyone should take a day and think about it before posting further to this thread.

 

*****

[+Runaround]

I'm still waiting for the legions of unhappy cachers to rise up. Where are they? No matter which forum you look in, it's always the same dozen or so people griping about everything and demanding changes.

 

Most of the cachers I know don't even go to the forums. They prefer looking for caches. I can't help but think these folks are the majority and don't feel any need to revolt or cancel memberships.

[+team safari]

You guys at Admin are not listening to our concerns. Read all the posts and hear what we as your "customers" are saying. It's very clear, we are dissatisfied with ADmin policies and attidudes. We love the game, we think you are too heavy-handed towards us your "customers".

[+carleenp]

Well, after days of avoiding posting in these "mod war" topics, I just can't help myself. My opinion is pretty wishy washy though. Sorry, I guess being that way is a side affect of my job. Plus I have always been a "middle of the road" type of thinker.

 

Anyway, I have generally read all of these threads and I have alternated between several thoughts. First, I saw a few of the same people raising the same topic over and over. The topic then got beat to death and got closed, or in a few cases, removed after a first post that was really just redundant from another thread. On other occasions the thread turned into both personal attacks and wierd off-topic stuff and got closed. If the forum is to be moderated, I don't particularly disagree with the moderation there.

 

But then I saw some threads that made me think maybe the topic had not been beaten to death as it initially appeared because I thought some new legitimate points were made. Yet, those topics were also shut down. I also read some posts that I noticed were quickly removed. Some of those removals I felt were quite warranted. Others, I questioned. Unfortunately I can't specifically point to examples there because they are gone.

 

I also noticed some time ago the complaints that there needed to be moderation of the forum and now some of the same people complain about the moderation. I'm not sure yet what to think about that. I wonder if those people could explain specificaly what kind of moderation they want. They said they want some, but now don't like it. What do you think should be allowed and what should be shut down? TPTB say they are working on a policy. Those specifics could be helpful. Plus, I'm curious.

 

Also, in the greater scheme of things, I wonder if internet forums are simply not as entertaining without some kind of angst over something. I also can't help but wonder if that is what often really fuels this type of thing. I'll admit that some of the most angst ridden threads in this forum have also been the most interesting and entertaining for me to read (and sometimes post in). They certainly are not boring! At any given time, there has been some controversy going on here. Is that bad? Should it be avoided? I don't know. I do know that it keeps things interesting.

 

So, my opinion? Well, I don't really have a clear one. Just those observations and this: I have generally been OK with the moderation that I've seen. But on some occasions, I have felt it was too heavy handed for my personal tastes. I have also felt that some moderators have handled things better than others. I hope a clearer policy will help since consistency is a good thing. Then people know what to expect and the moderators will be able to feel more secure with their decisions. I'm assuming that sometimes the decisions are hard. Regardless, moderating must be a thankless job much of the time.

 

Finally, outside of a fun and friendly joke, I have not been warned or moderated in the new forums. Maybe my perception would change if I was "moderated." At the same time, I was part of a couple locked threads, and I think a removed thread in the old forums, and while initially was a little miffed in one of those circumstances, I quickly decided that actually I would have done the same thing if I was an admin. I am also not easily offended, so I have never been overly annoyed by what others said here, whether aimed at me or not. For example, someone once called my view (I don't think me personally, but who knows) "lame." OK, that person was entitled to his or her opinion and the subject had plenty of room for disagreement. So it is also hard for me to think a lot of moderation is good when I really just don't care if people say harsh things, whether to me or someone else. In fact, I would be happy with no moderatation at all, but my comments are made on the assumption that moderation will continue and I'm OK with that too. Some people ARE easily offended or annoyed and moderation makes this a better place for them. That is OK.

 

So, there is my wishy washy view of things. In reality, I'll generally happily deal with whatever the amount of moderation is. Perhaps I'm just not controversial enough. Oh well!

Edited December 3, 2003 by carleenp

[+carleenp]

Wow, that was longer than I thought it would be. I guess I'm not just wishy washy, I'm also long winded!

Edited December 3, 2003 by carleenp

[+ChrisCindy]

Bleeding heart liberal, lawyer, and wishy washy...dang girl do you have no morals?

[+Stunod]

This is just like a good old fashioned street riot. You have a handfull of people smashing windows, torching cars, and stealing TV sets. When the cops come in swinging their night-sticks, some of the people fight back. Some of the cops use too much force. Would the water cannon have cleared the street, or did you need to break out the rubber bullets? Its hard to say...