This is nuts!

2.3k · August 7, 2003

Gee, I know! Let's make a "Titanic" cache and force that guy to go get it...hehehe...

August 7, 2003

quote:
In the meantime, while it's nice of Bilder to clean up the NPS ones, since they are in violation of NPS code (for now!)...it sort of smacks of Geocaching vigilante-ism....shouldn't the placer be responsible for removing them (or designating someone)? What about the approver, since the placer is probably in Utah right now?

Willing to bet the placer is nowhere near these caches.

I have started to work with the state and local governments to build a good relationship between geocachers and the powers that be.

If is smacks of vigilante-ism, so be it. I will not let some guy from Utah risk the good relationship I have started with the state. I can tolerate a virtual placed by someone from outside the state (if it were ok by the rules to do so) but when tags are left to verify a virtual, it becomes a physical.

What happens if a tag goes missing? Do the tags have geocaching.com on them? If so, how does it look to the NPS if a ranger happens to find the tag?

Had he simply asked for a photo no one would probably noticed or really cared. But by actually placing an object it drew attention.

Just be lucky I dont send a bill for the gas and mileage to go get the tags off the trees.

/rant off

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

August 7, 2003

Admin archived it finally. This is good news... except now I'll probably get death threats from the creator.

bring it on punk

-----------------------------------------------------------

N38 49.027 W120 01.064

Garmin GPS III+

August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Did anyone ever think to e-mail the cache placer and let him know about this thread so maybe he could post a valid explanation (okay, not the ones on NPS, but the other one)?

The cache placer's last visit to geocahing.com was 8/1/03. He has been a member since October 2002 and has 18 finds.......his most recent find was 4 months ago.......

"Could be worse...could be raining"

2.1k · August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ErSamin:

The cache placer's last visit to geocahing.com was 8/1/03. He has been a member since October 2002 and has _18_ finds.......his most recent find was 4 months ago.......

And the last time he checked his e-mail is?

He could check that every day as far as we know. He has logged in in the past week. I've been around a little less than twice as long and only have a little more than twice his finds. The fact that he hasn't been out this summer to log a find is meaningless to whether he would be interested in helping explain what he was thinking and how he will rectify his caches in Alaska (which really are as much a problem of the approver as his own).

He actually placed a cache at the beginning of June and these ones in question only 2 weeks ago, so it's not like he's inactive in the community either!

Your implication that his light activity on the site is an answer to whether anyone contacted him yet is misdirected and invalid. I did send him a note with a link to the discussion thread. Maybe we'll hear from him, maybe we won't. I just think that a lot of supposition has gone on here and the idea of someone going out and harvesting approved caches without contacting the owner is a bad trend.

But more to Bilder's concerns, who knows, maybe the owner has a summer home or timeshare in Alaska and is there right now. Maybe there was a long conversation with the Park Ranger and he got a special exception since it's just a dog tag on a 5 ft cord in the forest and this was relayed to the approver (which would explain how a vacation cache on NPS soil got approved since it seems like a double-whammy). If he is in Alaska every other month to see his kids, it wasn't on vacation. You are only assuming that it was because he lists Utah as his location that he won't be able to maintain his caches...

And then to leave a note telling others to remove his 3rd tagged virtual (which is NOT on NPS grounds) because you assume it will be archived and you assume it was on vacation...is exactly the kind of thing that led me to believe that this sort of cache-cleanup vigilante-ism isn't a good idea.

I read your other thread, Bilder, and I think you're doing some really great things for Alaskan caching, but hastily wiping out someone else's fun based on assumptions isn't quite in that same line (remember, this is regarding glacier cache #1...not on NPS soil).

Is it really so much trouble to try and contact him first to make sure the caches were setup (and approved, don't forget!) without regards to the rules?

PS - give him a week to get back to you, not 2 hours... []

August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Wanderingson and Compass Rose:
Hey,

Maybe I could a virtual cache under the shuttle launch pad and the only way to get credit for it is to tell me the temperature of the flames at time of takeoff. Naturally, you have to be holding the thermometer at the time of launch. I'll make this a multi-cahe and put a NASA maintenance suit in the first so you won't raise suspicion.

I think I know where the other half of that joint went to!

"I cache; therefore I am"

As a former Space Suit technician who built suits for the STS, I have to laugh at this one.

There HAVE been caches in space, although NOT logged by Nasa, the crews are always taking special items with them.

All the SR-71 Pilots took stuffed animals up EVERYTIME. I have a "Fozzie bear" that has been to Mach 3.4 and 80,000 feet. He is in a jar with his 3+ patch..

Trash-out, EVERYtime

~~

Geo-cach-er, n. generally a highy technically competent person with lots of free time. (see also- "Unemployed", Computer administrator, aircraft technician- defense worker- dot-com executive- systems administrator, et.al)

7.2k · August 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Did anyone ever think to e-mail the cache placer and let him know about this thread so maybe he could post a valid explanation (okay, not the ones on NPS, but the other one)?

I emailed the cache owner.

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
it sort of smacks of Geocaching vigilante-ism...

Two wrongs don't make a right for sure. But, the original placements were probably done without permission and in two cases are in violation of Federal Law. Those need to be removed immediately. The third one violates a guideline for the site and needs to be adopted or removed. Based on the location, I don't see many people who could or would be able to do that.

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
The fact that he hasn't been out this summer to log a find is meaningless to whether he would be interested in helping explain what he was thinking and how he will rectify his caches in Alaska (which really are as much a problem of the approver as his own).

Uh, I don't think you can blame-shift this problem to the approver. I didn't approve it, but as we have said before we can't catch everything. The cache hider must read the guidelines and act responsibly. If everyone did that then our job would be very easy (or we would not be needed at all).

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Maybe there was a long conversation with the Park Ranger and he got a special exception since it's just a dog tag on a 5 ft cord in the forest...

And how do you explain tossing the one over the side of the boat? There is no way the Park Ranger is going to approve that. I doubt very seriously if any of these were placed with permission. It is an outside possibility, but highly unlikely (I had an approved cache in a NP for 18 months myself).

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
PS - give him a week to get back to you, not 2 hours...

If it takes a cacher a week to respond to a simple email about a question regarding the cache, then how long will it take them to take care of a problem regarding the cache? Your responsibility is to take care of your caches quickly.

Read the Guidelines and Requirements page and the Guide to Creating and Hiding a Cache page. "You are ultimately responsible for the cache so make sure you know the rules for the area where your cache is being placed."

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
Gee, I know! Let's make a "Titanic" cache and force that guy to go get it...hehehe...

Hehe, don't chuckle! It has been submitted as a virtual...

and archived as unapproved.

And GeoCan... I have several patches and a coffee cup that have flown in space and have gone to the space station and have come back to earth. They are *prized* possesions. I also have a Super Guppy Patch that the cargo manager gave me.

August 7, 2003

Somewhere I have Mission coins from STS 1-5 and crew patches from the Suits... I used to have some heat tiles but a person (CMSGT) in the PSD division lifted them.

Trash-out, EVERYtime

~~

Geo-cach-er, n. generally a highy technically competent person with lots of free time. (see also- "Unemployed", Computer administrator, aircraft technician- defense worker- dot-com executive- systems administrator, et.al)

7.2k · August 7, 2003

AWESOME! Man GeoCan, that is very cool.

August 7, 2003

quote:
Mtn-man said:

If you would, please email either Moun10Bike or me and we will archive the cache as you get them. You may want to post a note a week or two before you go get them so other potential cachers can be aware that they may be removed. It may be prudent for one of the two of us to log the cache with a note regarding the problems and then disable the cache page. I would hate for someone to get there looking for the tags and waste their time. Thanks for going to retrieve them!!

Sounds like the admins want the tags taken down.

I put a note on his first cache after the admins gave my mention of removing #1 the go ahead. He will get the email notification on this and will be able to respond if there is a problem.

I will not be able to get down that way for a couple weeks. Plenty of time to respond if there is an error.

You would think that if there was some kind of exception for this cache that it would be mentioned on the cache page to prevent people from wondering. If he lives here part time, why not have a regular cache at site #1? There are lots are spots to hide a cache there. Why are there no Alaska finds in his profile if he lived here?

These tags are not off the beaten path. They are along well established trails that lead to these glaciers. Thousands of people walk those trails every year. They are the two most visited glaciers in the state.

If I am out of line I will eat crow and apologize. But with all the notes and the archiving of the ones on NPS land/water it is a sure bet the owner knows of the situation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

quote:

[This message was edited by Bilder on August 07, 2003 at 11:15 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bilder on August 07, 2003 at 11:20 PM.]

August 7, 2003

This is my favorite part of the cache description.

"You may log visits to the cache, but please don't log it as a "find" unless you email me the number on the tag. (Please do not post the number on the website)."

If I do find it, I have no problem with posting the number on the website.

August 8, 2003

GeoCan,

I had previously done some work with the RFHCO(Butyl Rubber)suits from the titan era, I think you guys call them Scape suits for the shuttle program. These are the suits the liquid fuels guys were. Ever done any work with them?

"I cache; therefore I am"

August 8, 2003

I worked with the David Clark suits, that the crews wore. When the ejection seats were taken out, they stopped using the full pressure suits, and by then NASA had their own techncians. In 1978-81 the USAF was the only place that was using the suits, so they had us do the original builds. We also trained the astronauts on ejection procedures and ran them through our "swing landing trainer" to reach them how to land in a parachute without killing themselves.

The seat in the Shuttle was the SR-71 seat.

We also had hypo and hyperbaric chambers (Altitude and Depth) for training and medical treatment if someone would get the bends.

The area I had most experience in was the oxygen regulators and Dual pressure controllers for the suits, although I could do a complete suit from ground zero.

http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/psd02.html

This is a website about PSD where I worked

http://www.blackbirds.net/patch/psd.html

These are the unit patches.

I worked at Beale AFB, outside Marysville, Ca.

Trash-out, EVERYtime

~~

Geo-cach-er, n. generally a highy technically competent person with lots of free time. (see also- "Unemployed", Computer administrator, aircraft technician- defense worker- dot-com executive- systems administrator, et.a

[This message was edited by GeoCan on August 08, 2003 at 07:34 AM.]

August 8, 2003

I hope to goodness that this is not the same chain this guy threw overboard. I'm not sure that the tidal currents could have moved this chain that far. Just in case, I have alerted the Penscola Police department to have them interview this guy.

Read the story.

http://pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/080903/Local/ST001.shtml

"I cache; therefore I am"

3.8k · August 8, 2003

"...Foul play could be a factor in the death..."

Ya think????????

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

7.2k · August 10, 2003

Well, he replied to me. He chewed me out and archived all of his caches. Pretty sad overall. I didn't create the ban on caches in National Parks but it is sad when we get chewed out when we enforce it.

Hehe, funny. The forum topic name turned out to be exactly right.

9.4k · August 10, 2003

quote:
Two Italian tourists strolling along Pensacola Beach on Friday morning discovered the body of a man - wrapped in a chain - washing ashore.

An autopsy by the medical examiner's office is scheduled for today.

Foul play could be a factor in the death, FDLE spokeswoman Lisa Lagergren said.

"We're not ruling out anything at this point. We're looking into this from all possible sides," she said. "We're still trying to get an identification on the body."

The man's body was fully clothed, but authorities found no identification, said John Bandurski, district ranger for the National Seashore.

The only identifying mark on him was a plastic tag. The tag had a 6-digit number and this picture:

Authorities are asking for anyone with information about this strange marking to come forward.

Officials believe it to be a cult symbol, but have not ruled out a computer geek club.

New information in the case point to the suspect residing in Utah. An abandoned car, possibly belonging to the victim with Georgia license plates, was found near the body.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

3.8k · August 11, 2003

A Travel Body!

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

9.4k · August 11, 2003

I sent our 'friend' an email:

quote:
>User Team GPSaxophone has contacted you with the following message:
>

>I wonder, are you going to collect all of the containers for the caches you

>archived, or leave them there as trash like your caches in Alaska?

>Before you flame me, you might want to read this thread .

>Mtn-Man archived one of your caches after it was pointed out by

>others that you didn't follow the guidelines on geocaching.com.

You know what he replied with?

quote:
I am collecting them ALL.
Leave me alone - A-hole.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

August 11, 2003

I have noticed that some people do not thrive on public humiliation....

Trash-out, EVERYtime

~~

Geo-cach-er, n. generally a highy technically competent person with lots of free time. (see also- "Unemployed", Computer administrator, aircraft technician- defense worker- dot-com executive- systems administrator, et.al)

2.1k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

You know what he replied with?

quote:
I am collecting them ALL.
Leave me alone - A-hole.

Wow, he figured you out from just 5 lines! I'm impressed with this guy.

Really though, why would you have to crap on a guy who has already been scolded for breaking the rules and is overreacting a bit. Usually this community is a bit more understanding and reasonable. It's a shame to see all of his Utah caches go, just because he was corrected for his Alaska caches, but to then prod him about it, instead of giving him time to cool off and maybe reconsidering his archives...you only give him more rationalization on why he's willing to give up the game and take his ball and go home.

This is also further evidence of why I think there needs to be a better way of handling rule violations (again, especially those approved by an approver) like initially contacting the placer and discussing possible solutions with them first. I wonder if meticulousmike would have handled this all better if he hadn't logged in one day after getting a note or two in his inbox from me and possibly others about how we were all discussing him in the forum and then a few archival notices from mtn-man and logs on his caches asking others to remove the cache.

Next time there are problems with someone's cache, I really think it would be better if people were to take things a bit slower and realize as misguided as they may have been, the person on the other end of the e-mail address had the best intentions.

2.3k · August 11, 2003

I think this whole deal is quite sad...

We have successfully turned someone against geocaching, which is not a good precedent.

I think he was mistaken by not following the rules and that is enough reason to contact him and ask him to remove the offending items. Also he was not given a reasonable amount of time to respond (sorry, a week is not reasonable). Obviously since he lives so far from the caches, it would be unlikely he would be able to remove them timely, but Bilder generously offered to step in and help out.

After following this thread, it appears to have been more of a witch-hunt than self-monitoring or self-policing. Everyone seemed to have a "Let's Get him" attitude.

I am not saying he has not been a jerk about it, but maybe after stepping back and re-evaluating the whole situation, it could have been handled better. Is there even a policy on how to handle this kind of problem?

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I would be willing to discuss how to approach this kind of problem without causing anger and mistrust.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

9.4k · August 11, 2003

He had already made his decision to archive his caches. Nothing I emailed him would have changed that. I am looking out for him by suggesting that he remove his trash from the area. Once a cache is not listed on the site, it becomes abandoned (i.e. trash) unless the hider retrieves it. All states have some kind of litter law. This guy had no intention of ever returning to Alaska to remove his trash-tags.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

1.6k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

This is also further evidence of why I think there needs to be a better way of handling rule violations (again, especially those approved by an approver) like initially contacting the placer and discussing possible solutions with them first.

We need to clarify rules upfront and then have a standard method of dealing with people who break rules. I would like calrification on the knife rule, I get mocked and flamed instead.

There are rules regarding where to place them, and if you put one in the wrong spot, you need to move it, and deal with the local authorities who are interested in the matter. You do not need to be the subject of 100 posts on the forums, no flames, no slams, no mocking, just clarity and enforcement.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nebraskache/

2.1k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:
He had already made his decision to archive his caches. Nothing I emailed him would have changed that. I am looking out for him by suggesting that he remove his trash from the area. Once a cache is not listed on the site, it becomes abandoned (i.e. trash) unless the hider retrieves it. All states have some kind of litter law. This guy had no intention of ever returning to Alaska to remove his trash-tags.

You know what, Sax...bull-garbage. He had archived them, but that does not mean they are unarchivable. This is a copy of a message I sent to him shortly after authoring my response to you:

quote:
Hi, Mike.

I sent you one of the e-mails a few days ago that alerted you to the discussion

on the website concerning your AK caches.

I just wanted to ask you to reconsider your archival of your UT caches. I

believe that the revokation of your AK caches was not handled properly, but

unfortunately I was of a minority of those responding in the discussion. While

I advocated a calmer, more courteous approach, others were a bit more gung-ho

and I can understand why you have taken offense to their handling of the

situation.

I just hope with a bit of time, you might reconsider leaving your UT caches

intact and on the website, because it would be unfortunate for UT geocachers

wholly uninvolved with any of this to lose out on what I saw, by way of your

cache pages, to be some spectacular locations. I know you had the best of

intentions in placing the AK caches (as well as your UT caches) and it would be

a shame to see your efforts lost due to a very vocal few (we're talking 5-10 of

thousands!) who have recently angered you.

Thanks for your time in reading this. Good luck to you.

I think this will be received a hell of a lot better than (to paraphrase) "don't litter on the way out...". You weren't looking out for his best interests...you were jabbing him one last time with a back-handed comment about his archiving of 13 good caches in retaliation for the Cache Cleanup at the AK Corral. Way to shoot from the hip...and the mouth. Next time, could you try leaving your snide comments here in the forum, so the rest of us don't have to suffer the consequences of your alienation of other mostly responsible cachers?

Thanks.

9.4k · August 11, 2003

You failed to see the intent of my email to him. He had changed the cache page on glacier #3 to say Mtn Man sucks. I was pointing out to him that Mtn Man was merely addressing a concern. Should that concern have been handled through email? sure! But it happened here on the forums instead. Since he isn't a forum regular, he didn't take my ribbing with a grain of salt. I guess I forgot the winking smiley. I've dealt with a few people that wanted to up and quit in much the same way. Ask Team 360, he's still around here.

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

2.3k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:
He had changed the cache page on glacier #3 to say Mtn Man sucks.

That's just wrong.

Attack the cache location, yes. Attack someone personally like that, no.

7.2k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
Really though, why would you have to crap on a guy who has already been scolded for breaking the rules and is overreacting a bit.

Please, give me a break. I don't know who scolded him, but it wasn't me. You know what... I was EXTREMEMLY nice to this guy. To me, he has some problems. Why he felt the need to cuss me out and belittle me I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. He is one person in a sea of good cachers and he is not worth worrying about to me. If trying to help him after he has broken federal law makes me a jerk, well he has some serious issues in his life to deal with.

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
You know what, Sax...bull-garbage. He had archived them, but that does not mean they are unarchivable. This is a copy of a message I sent to him shortly after authoring my response to you:...

I told him I wished he would unarchive his caches and that I would be happy to do it. I got the same message back that Team GPSaxophone did. I will post my message to him later tonight so you can see what I said.

Other than that, this is a dead issue. Don't contact him again. If something like this sets him off this much, then he is not worth the trouble and maybe some nice people will put caches back in these locations -- well, the legal ones at least.

[This message was edited by mtn-man on August 11, 2003 at 11:08 AM.]

7.2k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:
You know what, Sax...bull-garbage.

Frankly, that comment is uncalled for.

2.3k · August 11, 2003

You know what my mother used to do in these situations??

Smack all of us on the head and tell us to play nicely!

So, who wants a good smack!

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

24.7k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Wanderingson and Compass Rose:
Hey,

Maybe I could a virtual cache under the shuttle launch pad and the only way to get credit for it is to tell me the temperature of the flames at time of takeoff. Naturally, you have to be holding the thermometer at the time of launch. I'll make this a multi-cahe and put a NASA maintenance suit in the first so you won't raise suspicion.

I think I know where the other half of that joint went to!

"I cache; therefore I am"

If you can get permission for this one, I'm right there. I've always wanted to see a launch and be so close I can feel the heat on my face, and feel the rumble shake the ground.

[This message was edited by Renegade Knight on August 11, 2003 at 11:56 AM.]

August 11, 2003

I am tempted to add another 2 cents worth to this, but I remember something my daddy once said.

If you can't say something nice, dont say anything at all.

Dont want to start my day with a flame.

I am ready for my smack now.......

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never been lost. Been awful confused for a few days, but never lost!

N61.12.041 W149.43.734

24.7k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bilder:
...I am tempted to add another 2 cents worth to this...

I think you just did, we are just clueless about which of the posts above yours (mine included) you were pondering when you wrote that.

5.7k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
If you can get permission for this one, I'm right there. I've always wanted to see a launch and be so close I can feel the heat on my face, and feel the rumble shake the ground.

My office was 3 miles from Pad A when I was working out at KSC. During shuttle launches, when the sound waves hit from the solid rocket boosters (much different energy level than the main engines, which you hear first), your pant legs move as if there is a breeze. All the car alarms in the parking lot go off. The corrigated siding on the VAB howls sometimes. Pretty freakin cool. Those were some good times...

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

24.7k · August 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
...your pant legs move as if there is a breeze. All the car alarms in the parking lot go off. The corrigated siding on the VAB howls sometimes. Pretty freakin cool. Those were some good times...

and to think I have to settle for rolling down the window when a train goes by.

August 13, 2003

Just a final note on meticulousmike. Though I have never met him I have logged all but one of his Utah caches and we have traded many e-mails in the process. All of his Utah Caches are great caches some of them were quite challenging but most of the view points were worth the hike. Mike has agreed to let me adopt all of these Caches, so if the admin’s approve I will have all of them back up right away.

This has been a sad and regrettable situation Mike is a great guy and though he may have made a mistake concerning vacation caches he did not deserve to be ridiculed for it. Geocaching has lost a great cacher. I personally will miss being challenged by him and then bragging to him after I conquer one of his difficult caches.

I suggest we all remember to try a little kindness when we are in these situations.

See you on the Trail

Scout Master

We'll See ya on the Trail

This is nuts!

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