Geocachers vs Cavers....continued?

24.7k · September 1, 2003

SearchRescueDog:

True I wouldn't want to fly in a plane without lessons. But I sure as hell wouldn’t be afraid to jump in the cockpit and sit down to check out the controls. Nor will I have a problem kicking the tires. It always comes down to knowing your limits and the limitations of your equipment. In that situation my limit would be starting the plane. I’d not go there. Others would. I don’t want my enjoyment shut down due to the morons the world is teeming with.

nincehelser

"Geocachers do nothing for caves." I'll grant you that In spite of the fact that at least in Idaho I know it's not true. However by that same token cavers don't do jack for caves either. Since picking up litter qualifies as nothing in your book (or you wouldn't of discounted CITO) that leaves preservation. Great. Except that preservation is best served by never visiting the cave. Every visit, every foot step, every fingerprint, every flashlight, forever alters the cave. Cavers would best serve caves by going away and taking their secrets with them.

Except cavers see the scenic value of a cave. It they didn't they would not exist as a group. We would not have these arguments. The entire caver battle is preservation for enjoyment. The same thing geocachers are fighting for. The ability to Enjoy. The difference is how exclusive the enjoyment is going to be and how to go about making sure the most people can enjoy them. Ultimately the arguments boil down to this. Safety is a side issue.

Lastly, nincehelser keep it on an even keel. You have a tendency to take debates or arguments to a personal level.

Caver_jeffery, you do a good job. You don’t strike me as elitist and display a lot of patience in making your points. You have definitely have earned respect in my book. I’d buy you a beer and then argue with you any day. Though I suspect we would find some common ground fairly fast.

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Lastly, nincehelser keep it on an even keel. You have a tendency to take debates or arguments to a personal level.

BS, RK. It's just because you've kept your moronic rantings out of this discussion. I'll say it again, I don't suffer fools like you.

And just who do you think you are passing out these sorts of comments on posts? Do you think we're overjoyed to get your approval? Ooooh....the teacher is handing out cookies!!!! Aren't we all good little children?!

RK, you're an arrogant @ss, as usual.

George

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
However by that same token cavers don't do jack for caves either.

Here's your moronic posts starting again. Is it any wonder the local grottos don't think much of you?

quote:
Since picking up litter qualifies as nothing in your book (or you wouldn't of discounted CITO) that leaves preservation.

Another of your fabrications. You alway say I'm saying something, and you'll back it up with proof, but you never do. C'mon, RK. Show me where I've discounted CITO.

quote:
Great. Except that preservation is best served by never visiting the cave. Every visit, every foot step, every fingerprint, every flashlight, forever alters the cave.

Oh, so that means we can't go in the caves to pick up the human refuse that has found it's way in? We can't go in to repair the damage done by those who don't have any respect for the environment?

Again, you seem to think cavers have unlimited access to caves. Again, I remind you of the fact that many caves are off-limits to any human activity without justified reason, like scientific study. It isn't the cavers making these rules, either.

quote:
Cavers would best serve caves by going away and taking their secrets with them.

Yep. That's why the local grottos don't think much of you. What an attitude...ignorant and arrogant roled into one.

George

24.7k · September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
...BS, RK. It's just because you've kept your moronic rantings out of this discussion. I'll say it again, I don't suffer fools like you.

And just who do you think you are passing out these sorts of comments on posts? Do you think we're overjoyed to get your approval? Ooooh....the teacher is handing out cookies!!!! Aren't we all good little children?!

RK, you're an arrogant @ss, as usual.

George

Thanks.

That was your one and only warning about keeping it personal. I said it for two reasons. The first because I knew you would have a hard time with what I was posting and would be tempted to use words like moron. The second because I really wanted to see if you would go ape**** over it.

Proof was in your next post. That was your one and only warning. I have dealt with you using kid gloves so far. The word you were looking for was Pompous ***. You will find it suits me much better. Now I will take the time to counter your post and I will do it without calling you a moron, an arrogant a$$, or implying that nobody thinks much of you. If you return the same courtesy we can at least disagree civilly. However if you don't in this thread or any other, there will be no kid gloves ever again. I do expect that statement to irritate you but only because you know you have attacked me directly instead of the points I was making in the post.

2.3k · September 1, 2003

Here here RK. He is the reason I have not replied before. BTW I did notify the admins on both his posts.Those are exactly the kinds of things we DON'T need here. Way above and beyond the cacher/caver disagreement.

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

September 1, 2003

Bring it on, RK. Bring it on.

From your own admission, you're just looking for another fight. And then threaten me to boot.

But I'm not worried. I'm sure it's just more of you words that you can't back up.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on September 01, 2003 at 11:54 AM.]

24.7k · September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
However by that same token cavers don't do jack for caves either.

Here's your moronic posts starting again. Is it any wonder the local grottos don't think much of you?

quote:

You asked for proof.

You had said “Geocachers do nothing for caves” Ok, CITO as you know is cleaning up litter. Most geocachers do this to a greater or lesser extent. In order to say that Geocaching does nothing for caving you have to think that CITO does nothing for caves. That's the proof. If you don't believe that you are free to retract your statement or to say that CITO doesn't do anything for preservation. Or you can say that geocaching doesn’t do much for caving because it takes more than picking up a beer bottle or two. There is no fabrication here. I read what you said, though perhaps you didn’t' actually say what you meant. I could have misunderstood your saying “Geocachers do nothing for caves”.

The logic applied to cavers is the same. Cavers in general are big on preservation. Preservation is a common theme for all outdoor groups. Ruin the cave and you ruin them for everyone not just cavers. I don’t think anyone would argue that. However cavers in general play it like a trump card. When a caver says "you might hurt the caves" it really means "you might do more harm than we do because we are careful" Any caver should agree that even with training all you can do is MINIMIZE impact. Minimal impact is not zero. This is logic. I don't see you claiming that you don't visit caves. But I do see you claiming that visitation causes harm. Again the proof is in your own wording. Either don't visit, or recognize that visiting the caves isn't the true issue.

Oh, so that means we can't go in the caves to pick up the human refuse that has found it's way in? We can't go in to repair the damage done by those who don't have any respect for the environment?

Again, you seem to think cavers have unlimited access to caves. Again, I remind you of the fact that many caves are off-limits to any human activity without justified reason, like scientific study. It isn't the cavers making these rules, either.

That wasn’t my point or where I was trying to go with that. The point isn't that caves should not be visited. The point is that they should be preserved for everyone and not from everyone. Still from a 100% preservationist point of view nobody should visit caves at all. Even cavers. I am not saying cavers shouldn’t visit caves. Just that the trump card of preservation taken to it’s logical extreme does nobody any good. Even cavers. As far as closed caves as you have said. Some caves are closed. It's not what's being debated here. The debate is cave access as it relates to geocaching and grotto clubs. Land owners can close caves as they chose. That's another issue for another thread.

24.7k · September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Bring it on, RK. Bring it on.

From your own admission, you're just looking for another fight. And then threaten me to boot.

But I'm not worried. I'm sure it's just more of you words that you can't back up.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on September 01, 2003 at 11:54 AM.]

It's "on" and it's civil. If you do the same great. If not, Great. Lets see, I threatened to respond with a civil post without all the key words you like to use. dadgum if I didn't do it.

September 1, 2003

RK,

Buddy, you're being trolled.

You're A-OK in my book.

Don't feed the Trolls.

Bernie

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

You asked for proof.

You had said “Geocachers do nothing for caves” Ok, CITO as you know is cleaning up litter. Most geocachers do this to a greater or lesser extent. In order to say that Geocaching does nothing for caving you have to think that CITO does nothing for caves. That's the proof.

Pretty lame proof. Stupid, really.

Have there been organized CITO geocacher events in caves or cave preserves? There may have been some, but I bet they're pretty rare. Feel free to point some out to me.

The fact is that I see no groups of geocachers doing anything for caves on a regular basis. I don't see any geocaching contingent at work days. I don't see them in caves cleaning out trash or removing graffiti. Obviously, there are individuals who do this who might be geocachers, but there is little or no cave cleanup and restoration efforts led by the geocaching community.

quote:
If you don't believe that you are free to retract your statement or to say that CITO doesn't do anything for preservation. Or you can say that geocaching doesn’t do much for caving because it takes more than picking up a beer bottle or two. There is no fabrication here. I read what you said, though perhaps you didn’t' actually say what you meant. I could have misunderstood your saying “Geocachers do nothing for caves”.

The fabrication that I accused you of is saying that I discount CITO. I've never said such a thing, and here you are trying to build some tenuous rationalization that I have indirectly. Sorry, but it doesn't fly.

quote:
The logic applied to cavers is the same. Cavers in general are big on preservation. Preservation is a common theme for all outdoor groups. Ruin the cave and you ruin them for everyone not just cavers. I don’t think anyone would argue that. However cavers in general play it like a trump card. When a caver says "you might hurt the caves" it really means "you might do more harm than we do because we are careful"

And in many cases that is true. People who aren't familiar with caves often do more damage than those who do.

quote:
Any caver should agree that even with training all you can do is MINIMIZE impact. Minimal impact is not zero. This is logic.

What logic? I don't see where you're going here at all. I've never said anything about "zero" impact. This is another of your fabrications.

quote:
I don't see you claiming that you don't visit caves. But I do see you claiming that visitation causes harm. Again the proof is in your own wording. Either don't visit, or recognize that visiting the caves isn't the true issue.

Actually, this whole thread was more about safety, so again I don't know where you're going.

I never said I don't visit caves. I even suggested people interested contact their local grotto and go caving. What's the issue here? It certainly isn't one that I advocate zero-vistiation.

The fact is that visitors without guidance or experience will do more damage. Cavers do less damage (or at least try to) because they know more about what's around them.

quote:
That wasn’t my point or where I was trying to go with that. The point isn't that caves should not be visited. The point is that they should be preserved for everyone and not from everyone.

Frankly, I don't know what your point is. It certainly isn't the subject of this thread.

quote:
Still from a 100% preservationist point of view nobody should visit caves at all. Even cavers.

And just who has this "100% preservationist" stance. I certainly don't.

quote:
I am not saying cavers shouldn’t visit caves. Just that the trump card of preservation taken to it’s logical extreme does nobody any good.

Uhhhh....yeah....just who has been saying anything different?

quote:
Even cavers. As far as closed caves as you have said. Some caves are closed. It's not what's being debated here. The debate is cave access as it relates to geocaching and grotto clubs.

Actually, this thread has been more about cave safety. As far as relations between geocaching and grottos, the problem seems to lie with certain geocachers having a chip on their shoulder. Again, visit a grotto (without the attitude) and you'll find yourself caving, learning about caves, and where they are located.

quote:
Land owners can close caves as they chose. That's another issue for another thread.

Yep. And so do local governments on public land. Just because a cave is on public land does not guarantee anyone access.

I'm not at all sure what you're trying to prove here, RK. All I know is that you haven't shown where I discount CITO as you have claimed.

George

September 1, 2003

I completely agree with RK. Seems to me that nincehelser is trying to keep the argument at the childish level he already established. Seriously, if you have something intelligent to say, do it soon. I think anyone following this thread is probably losing their patience. Also... anyone remotely on your side is probably pissed at you too because you're making cavers look like total A$$es. After this thread, I am pretty confident that all the preconceived notions that cachers have of cavers are pretty much right on. Thanks for clearing up at least one thing, nincehelser.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
I completely agree with RK. Seems to me that nincehelser is trying to keep the argument at the childish level he already established. Seriously, if you have something intelligent to say, do it soon. I think anyone following this thread is probably losing their patience. Also... anyone remotely on your side is probably pissed at you too because you're making cavers look like total A$$es. After this thread, I am pretty confident that all the preconceived notions that cachers have of cavers are pretty much right on. Thanks for clearing up at least one thing, nincehelser.

I'm just stating the facts. Sorry you don't like them. Call my arguments childish, but they are solid. If they aren't solid, then let's see you shoot them down.

RK started the trolling by his own admission. He habitually makes unfounded statements about cavers and about me personally...and he never has been able to back anything up...even with repeated requests.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on September 01, 2003 at 01:25 PM.]

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
I think anyone following this thread is probably losing their patience. Also... anyone remotely on your side is probably pissed at you too because you're making cavers look like total A$$es.

No comment. {Wink}

Randy

PS: This thread started with finding 'common ground', it evolved into 'safety'. For some, there isn't common ground, so avoid interacting! Using this issue as a venue for personal agendas is inappropriate and doesn't aid the common ground theme that many of us care about!

September 1, 2003

N.........r,

We've all said things we wish we haven't of said.

I like you N.........r.

Please, can't you and RK kiss and make up?

Bernie

24.7k · September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
...Have there been organized CITO geocacher events in caves or cave preserves? There may have been some, but I bet they're pretty rare. Feel free to point some out to me.

The fact is that I see no groups of geocachers doing anything for caves on a regular basis. I don't see any geocaching contingent at work days. I don't see them in caves cleaning out trash or removing graffiti. Obviously, there are individuals who do this who might be geocachers, but there is little or no cave cleanup and restoration efforts led by the geocaching community...

Excellent. Now we have you admitting that geocachers do some good and that CITO is at least marginally useful even if Geocachers don't orgainize specifically for caves. (Idaho's first clean up event took care of a cave)

The thing is geocachers are all over the place. Caves, Rivers, Cliffs, Forests, Parks. What we do impacts all of them positivly. Grotto clubs are focused. I haven't seen a grotto club rally round the caving flag at a non cave event. Even so I dont disount them and say "They don't do any good for anything outside caving" because I'm sure that some do. Your take that geocachers do nothing for caves was false because we do. I would hope that you do also. For proof. You said "Geocachers do nothing for caves" I pointed out they do with CITO. Nothing is something less than CITO. You shouldn't need more proof than that unless it's a quality or quantiy of what Geocachers do that bugs you.

Since you have missed my points I'll make them short.

1) Safety is a side issue. It's a side issue becasue a 100% human safe cave would have no humans in it. The debate on saftey centers on access. For proof: No people = no accidents.

2) Preservation is a side issue. It's a side issue because 100% preservation would have no humans in caves. The debate on preservation centers on access. For proof: No people = No direct human caused harm.

Safety and Preservation are arguments used to shut all of us out of areas and activties. It's not limited to caves. Though were cavers to actually manage to shut down access except via the grotto club then you would quicly find a much stronger lobby for 100% preservation. For proof. Read the paper, listen to the news, check out the anti motorized trail user crowd. It's a long walk to some of those caves with that equipment if they shut down the access roads.

So why do cavers make good geocachers? For the same reasons geocachers like caves. We are all selfishly running around taking in the world for our benifit.

Bottom line. My vote does not go to grotto clubs as the gatekeepers for 'permitting' cave activites. I will be happy to work with them and point people their direction for training and safety. If a member had some good advice on safety pointers for a specific cave I'd be happy to post it.

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Excellent. Now we have you admitting that geocachers do some good and that CITO is at least marginally useful even if Geocachers don't orgainize specifically for caves. (Idaho's first clean up event took care of a cave)

Excellent? I never said anything bad about CITO. That's totally your fabrication.

quote:
Your take that geocachers do nothing for caves was false because we do.

Then where are they on caving work days? Funny how they aren't there.

quote:
I would hope that you do also. For proof. You said "Geocachers do nothing for caves" I pointed out they do with CITO.

And where are all these CITO events for caves? They aren't out there. Perhaps there is one occasionally, but there is *NO* ongoing geocaching cleanup or restoration of caves.

Again, your original argument was that I discounted CITO. I'm still waiting for your proof that I said such.

quote:
Nothing is something less than CITO. You shouldn't need more proof than that unless it's a quality or quantiy of what Geocachers do that bugs you

Well, I'll bite...where is the quality or quantity of these CITO cave events? Where's the ongoing commitment? Have geocaching groups contacted cave managers and volunteered their services? Please tell me. Cavers exchange volunteer work for cave access...do geocachers do this?

quote:
Since you have missed my points I'll make them short.

1) Safety is a side issue. It's a side issue becasue a 100% human safe cave would have no humans in it. The debate on saftey centers on access. For proof: No people = no accidents.

Why are you on this no-access kick? Safety turned out to be the major theme of this thread. I don't understand where you're trying to shift it elsewhere. Please stay on topic.

quote:
2) Preservation is a side issue. It's a side issue because 100% preservation would have no humans in caves. The debate on preservation centers on access. For proof: No people = No direct human caused harm.

Again, you're off base. No one has been talking much about preservation is this thread.

quote:
Safety and Preservation are arguments used to shut all of us out of areas and activties. It's not limited to caves. Though were cavers to actually manage to shut down access except via the grotto club then you would quicly find a much stronger lobby for 100% preservation.

Yes, safety and preservation are arguments used to shut out access. Your point?

And what is all this about 100% preservation? Where are you getting this? It's like you're involved in some other conversation all by yourself.

quote:
For proof. Read the paper, listen to the news, check out the anti motorized trail user crowd. It's a long walk to some of those caves with that equipment if they shut down the access roads.

What's this about? Your other problem that people won't let you drive your ATV (or whatever it is) where you want to? Again, why do you wander off topic?

quote:
So why do cavers make good geocachers? For the same reasons geocachers like caves. We are all selfishly running around taking in the world for our benifit.

Whatever....

quote:
Bottom line. My vote does not go to grotto clubs as the gatekeepers for 'permitting' cave activites. I will be happy to work with them and point people their direction for training and safety. If a member had some good advice on safety pointers for a specific cave I'd be happy to post it.

Bottom line. You have a personal grudge against cavers and grottos because they won't share their "secrets" with you. If I'm reading you correctly, now you're saying people should come to *YOU* for cave training and safety advice. Heaven help them!

BTW, how is your little "army" that's going to take over public lands going?

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on September 01, 2003 at 05:33 PM.]

September 1, 2003

Time to lighten up folks.

I have lots of cave, bears and rock climbing stories.

How about a cave story so I don't get off topic?

Twelve years ago my sister gave my Father and Mother about 20 acres in Kentucky to build their retirement house on.

I fly out there from California to address a concern. Water.

Where to drill the well for water?

I spent a few days of wandering around the 20 acres, by myself, checking things out.

I first found a small creek down in the hallow. I thought the creek would be good for now. But, would it dry up later in the summer? Would it freeze up in winter?

I was wandering around again the next day when I discovered something REALLY coooooooool! MY PARENTS OWN A CAVE!

I must say that gaining the entrance of the cave was somewhat tricky. I'm a rock climber and don't really understand mud.

I go inside about 40' and it is DARK. I can hear water somewhere and a voice in my head. The voice in my head is saying, Bernie, "you stupid fool - come back when somebody knows where you're at and bring a whole bunch of flashlights".

Next day, I rounded up 3 flashlights with fresh batteries and told Mom and Dad I should be back in 4 - 6 hours. Mon insisted upon given me another flashlight. You gotta love Mom.

Back in the cave I found a fair amount of water falling from the roof of the cave. Maybe 5 gallons a minute. Bats are everywhere. Love those gentle creatures. I went back about a 1/4 mile and the cave got small. I'm talking it got really small. Then I hear that voice in my head again, "Bernie, you fool ........."

I was so happy to come back to my parents and tell them you got WATER.

It took me several days with help. I placed (2) 250 gallons plastic containers below the the falling water in the cave. Ran electrical line and pvc pipe to the pump I placed in the cave.

Mom and Dad got water now.

Love them,

Bernie

24.7k · September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
...Bottom line. You have a personal grudge against cavers and grottos because they won't share their "secrets" with you. If I'm reading you correctly, now you're saying people should come to *YOU* for cave training and safety advice. Heaven help them!...

You have a problem with reading and comprehension. I’m not going to walk through the points again for your benefit. You can scroll back up and re-visit everything I had to say. You are going to have to make more of an effort to understand before you can pose an intelligent question.

You have a real chip on your shoulder. It clouds your vision and fogs your brain. I have a problem with grotto clubs telling me to remove a cache. Plain and simple. Call it assumed authority, it just rubs me wrong.

The person asking me to remove a cache is always some jackass like you. With the equivelent of all your communications skills brought to bear in an email full of threats, and hints of prosecution. It makes it real easy to leave the cache and ponder where more could be placed. Overall this is one of the better cave and geocache threads I’ve had the pleasure of reading. A lot of good people posted well thought out and well written takes on the subject. At least until you typed in. RJferret and I exchanged some emails after an earlier thread and while we don’t agree on the solution; for the most part we did agree on the problem. After that I backed off an earlier position as unwise. With any normal person it wouldn’t take long to accomplish the same thing. Before you go off on a tangent on that, I haven’t brought up anything other than access in this thread.

Time to end this thread and let you do something constructive with both hands instead of the one you normally type with as you think about how you are putting it to me in the forums. Post the local grotto club link for SE Idaho. The Silver Sage Grotto is based in Twin Falls and at least two members are your soul mates. They communicate as well as you do. Speaking of which. When it comes to caving you do more harm than good. By your very presence you hurt your own cause far more than my “Army of One”. All I have to do is say the word “caver” in a post and it’s like pulling the trigger on a loaded gun. You will chime in. The collateral damage you do to your own cause is far more than I could; or would do except through you. You actually make it rather fun.

Because you are only rehashing if you respond you will get in the last word; In this thread. There will be other threads. Watch that collatoral damage.

September 1, 2003

nincehelser,

First. It is not fabrication. RK is saying that CITO is a good thing that geocachers do. You said that cachers don't do anything for caves. You're changing your story to "cachers don't do ENOUGH for caves" now. Well excuse us for not putting all of our time and effort into "saving the caves". Excuse us for having CITO events in places with a TON of trash. Places that need it severely. Caves cannot possibly have as much trash in them as most of the places that host CITO events. Unless you're talking about the bodies of all the weak little dead geocachers who go into caves and stink them up for you... I guess that would be something to clean up. Let's leave that to the police though. Please, don't accuse me of fabrication. Just because I haven't quoted you exactly, it doesn't mean my points aren't valid.

In fact... I want to say now... if you choose to argue my post, don't say I am off topic, don't say "so?", and don't act like I'm WAY off base. You have done a whole lot of that to RK and not made any real good counterpoints. Okay, that said I will move on.

I'll admit, I have never seen or been to a CITO cave event. Know why? There are no caves in my area. You can't expect people to trash out caves as much as they do other areas. They just aren't as plentiful. Plus... the cavers don't tend to tell people about them, so how are we to know about them to do anything about it?

Also, safety IS a side issue. That's RK's point. Anyplace can be dangerous, caches are placed on the edges of cliffs and the tops of mountains. Get over it. If someone is dumb enough to ignore a warning on a cache page, it's their fault. Should we not allow any dangerous caches?

I don't feel RK was off base in talking about preservation either. Please, make a more detailed argument. It HAS been mentioned that cavers don't want their caves trashed, and that's why they don't want a bunch of regular joes out there in them. If you don't feel preservation is an issue, just say so. Don't just tell people they are off base. He brings up 100% preservation because cavers seem to want preservation, but they are walking around in caves which does not lead to preservation. If you want them preserved, close them off and don't let ANYONE in. And don't go telling me that you preserve them too... because sure, you do... but not ALL caves need preservation. They are just stomping grounds for cavers. Just fun places to go. I don't know if that was RK's point, but it sure is mine.

I believe what he was saying about the anti-motorized trail user crowd, is that many cavers bring their equipment to the caves via those trails. How would you like people telling you that you can't use those? I understand you aren't saying we CAN'T. You sure seem to be saying we shouldn't be in caves though.

MY bottom line is... no one here would have a grudge against cavers if it weren't for people like you. He isn't saying people should come to him for caving advice... he's just saying that he would be glad to get in contact with grottos and pass on any information he got from them. How can you seriously argue with a person trying to do something good like that?

By the way... don't reply to my post with "Whatever..." That seems to be your little defense mechanism.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

September 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

Whatever....

Sure sign that someone is losing an argument. (all it needs is the rolly eyes)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

September 1, 2003

nincehelser said:

quote:
If things in cave were always so simple that could always just easily wrap yourself up in a space blanket and be warm, perhaps you'd have a point. But it's clear you have little idea what rescue situations are really like.

Hmmm, I could have sworn I was offering an easy solution as a contigincey solution for a very specific incident. I was being nice in assuming the original posting was meant to imply that even experience cavers sometimes make very bad clothing and gear choices. Again, even given the stupidity of the initial decisions, there should have been a backup. The case in point was very easily avoidable.

There may be a safety problem in caves, and I do believe I'm gaining a much better understanding of it......

As for the statistics you provided, overall it actually would appear to be pretty safe based on the link you provided. Could be the total numbers involved in caving are far fewer than it would appear by scanning the web, or overall people are being pretty safe when they venture into caves. Seems those BYU students getting themselves stuck in the nutty putty cave aren't doing themselves nearly as much harm in there as they do hiking the nearby hills.

September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
You have a problem with reading and comprehension. I’m not going to walk through the points again for your benefit.

Because you're point aren't valid or even on topic.

quote:
You can scroll back up and re-visit everything I had to say. You are going to have to make more of an effort to understand before you can pose an intelligent question.

Sure. Right. I'm asking why are you going so off-topic again.

quote:
You have a real chip on your shoulder.

I'm not the one calling people to arms because I can't have my way on public property.

quote:
It clouds your vision and fogs your brain.

Wow.

quote:
I have a problem with grotto clubs telling me to remove a cache. Plain and simple. Call it assumed authority, it just rubs me wrong.

Tough. Get over it.

quote:
The person asking me to remove a cache is always some jackass like you.

It's pretty clear that if anyone trys to tell you anything that you're going to consider them a "jackass".

With the equivelent of all your communications skills

Oh, please. You can't even carry on a logical conversation. Don't tell me about communication skills.

quote:
brought to bear in an email full of threats, and hints of prosecution.

You resort to threats pretty quickly. You've posted your desire to take over public lands, because you don't like the way their run because you aren't allowed to do whatever you want. You've threatened me.

quote:
It makes it real easy to leave the cache and ponder where more could be placed. Overall this is one of the better cave and geocache threads I’ve had the pleasure of reading. A lot of good people posted well thought out and well written takes on the subject.

At least until you typed in.

I can say the same about you. What facts have you brought to this discussion. Zero. Just your rantings that aren't even on-topic.

quote:
RJferret and I exchanged some emails after an earlier thread and while we don’t agree on the solution; for the most part we did agree on the problem. After that I backed off an earlier position as unwise. With any normal person it wouldn’t take long to accomplish the same thing. Before you go off on a tangent on that, I haven’t brought up anything other than access in this thread.

Time to end this thread and let you do something constructive with both hands instead of the one you normally type with as you think about how you are putting it to me in the forums. Post the local grotto club link for SE Idaho. The Silver Sage Grotto is based in Twin Falls and at least two members are your soul mates. They communicate as well as you do. Speaking of which. When it comes to caving you do more harm than good. By your very presence you hurt your own cause far more than my “Army of One”. All I have to do is say the word “caver” in a post and it’s like pulling the trigger on a loaded gun. You will chime in. The collateral damage you do to your own cause is far more than I could; or would do except through you. You actually make it rather fun.

Because you are only rehashing if you respond you will get in the last word; In this thread. There will be other threads. Watch that collatoral damage.

I'm sooooo scared of you RK.

Jeeesh..

George

September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:
Sure sign that someone is losing an argument. (all it needs is the rolly eyes)

Nah...it's just the way I deal with insane rantings like RK's.

George

September 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
nincehelser,

First. It is not fabrication. RK is saying that CITO is a good thing that geocachers do.

I'm not arguing that. I never have. It was RK's fabrication that attempted to make it appear that I'm against CITO.

quote:
You said that cachers don't do anything for caves.

Correct

quote:
You're changing your story to "cachers don't do ENOUGH for caves" now. Well excuse us for not putting all of our time and effort into "saving the caves".

I'm not asking you to. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people do put in a lot of work to obtain access to caves. Geocacher's don't.

quote:
Excuse us for having CITO events in places with a TON of trash. Places that need it severely. Caves cannot possibly have as much trash in them as most of the places that host CITO events.

Again, I've nothing against CITO. There's no need to try to convince me it's a fine thing.

quote:
Unless you're talking about the bodies of all the weak little dead geocachers who go into caves and stink them up for you... I guess that would be something to clean up. Let's leave that to the police though. Please, don't accuse me of fabrication. Just because I haven't quoted you exactly, it doesn't mean my points aren't valid.

Your point doesn't mean much because I have no beef against CITO.

I challenge RK to prove that I said such, but he's one of those people who like to spread slander indirectly. You've just been sucked into it.

quote:
In fact... I want to say now... if you choose to argue my post, don't say I am off topic, don't say "so?", and don't act like I'm WAY off base. You have done a whole lot of that to RK and not made any real good counterpoints. Okay, that said I will move on.

What can I say...you're arguing about a non-issue.

quote:
I'll admit, I have never seen or been to a CITO cave event. Know why? There are no caves in my area. You can't expect people to trash out caves as much as they do other areas. They just aren't as plentiful. Plus... the cavers don't tend to tell people about them, so how are we to know about them to do anything about it?

True. Not all areas have caves.

Assuming you have nearby caves, ask your local grotto about it and volunteer your services.

quote:
Also, safety IS a side issue. That's RK's point. Anyplace can be dangerous, caches are placed on the edges of cliffs and the tops of mountains. Get over it. If someone is dumb enough to ignore a warning on a cache page, it's their fault. Should we not allow any dangerous caches?

A side issue to what? We were talking about possible dangers in caves, and if things like hypothermia and other accidents are really an issue. As far as cache placement issues in dangerous places, that's whole different topic.

quote:
I don't feel RK was off base in talking about preservation either. Please, make a more detailed argument.

My appoligies on that. To understand the full picture, I'd have to go back over a lot of history with RK. In a nutshell, he has had bad experiences with local grottos, other cavers, and various other people who don't agree with him about the uses of public land. He spreads false information and innuendo without shame. All that past history makes things escalate quickly.

quote:
It HAS been mentioned that cavers don't want their caves trashed, and that's why they don't want a bunch of regular joes out there in them.

The caves don't belong to cavers. (unless they actually purchase them) Of course they don't want them trashed, but cave access is heavily governed by various laws and property managers, not cavers. No one wants them trashed.

quote:
If you don't feel preservation is an issue, just say so. Don't just tell people they are off base. He brings up 100% preservation because cavers seem to want preservation, but they are walking around in caves which does not lead to preservation.

You've been sucked in by another of RK's fabrications. He was the one who brought up this "100% preservation" stance. I've never heard of it before, and I don't subscribe to it. I don't know of any cavers who do.

quote:
If you want them preserved, close them off and don't let ANYONE in.

Sometimes that happens. The government has closed off many caves to any access.

quote:
And don't go telling me that you preserve them too... because sure, you do... but not ALL caves need preservation. They are just stomping grounds for cavers. Just fun places to go. I don't know if that was RK's point, but it sure is mine.

Yes, there are a few that have been so trashed it no longer makes a difference, but those are the exception rather than the rule.

quote:
I believe what he was saying about the anti-motorized trail user crowd, is that many cavers bring their equipment to the caves via those trails.

This is where past history is helpful. He also gets spun-up about because he can't drive his vehicle everywhere he wants.

quote:
How would you like people telling you that you can't use those? I understand you aren't saying we CAN'T.

I'm not particulary bothered by it. Driving off-road isn't one of my hobbies. If it makes cave access more difficult, I sure haven't heard any cavers complain about it. Many cavers hike miles with their equipment to reach a cave site. It's not an issue.

quote:
You sure seem to be saying we shouldn't be in caves though.

Haven't I mentioned a few time to contact your local grotto if you want to go caving? I think I have. That will get you into caves easily and safely.

quote:
MY bottom line is... no one here would have a grudge against cavers if it weren't for people like you.

Here we go...

quote:
He isn't saying people should come to him for caving advice... he's just saying that he would be glad to get in contact with grottos and pass on any information he got from them. How can you seriously argue with a person trying to do something good like that?

No he isn't. He strongly dislikes grottos, and wants to circumvent them. Again, knowing his past history would help here.

quote:
By the way... don't reply to my post with "Whatever..." That seems to be your little defense mechanism.

OK. I guess maybe I'll start using those little rolling eyes like everybody else uses.

George

1.4k · September 3, 2003

Holy bejeesus.

I will put in my 2cents on the danger element. If I placed a scuba cache in 150fsw, and a non scuba person borrowed his uncles old aqualung to "gave er a go" and promptly drowned...I'd say the gene pool won't be as watered down. Same goes for caving.....or any dangerous activity. If the dangers of caving are as extreme as is portrayed, it's followers should be tested, certified and sanctioned, just as they are in other life threatening sport. You can't even get an airfill without a c-card, why should caving be any different?

September 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BadAndy:
If the dangers of caving are as extreme as is portrayed, it's followers should be tested, certified and sanctioned, just as they are in other life threatening sport. You can't even get an airfill without a c-card, why should caving be any different?

Um, HELLO! They are! What have we been saying?

Just like hang-gliding, it's a self-moderated activity, hence the ''please contact your local grotto, they'd love to involved you''.

The difference is there is no 'policing', since any fool can wander into a cave. Hence the reason they tend not to be 'advertised' by their owners.

Good point BadAndy,

Randy

PS: And on-topic to boot! Woo-hoo...

1.4k · September 3, 2003

My bad! I wasn't aware that before a caver could participate in the sport they had to take a study course, pass a standardized test and be issued a certification card from the NSS. If I become certified, does my card allow me access to caves outside of my grotto? Is there a study guide online? What about cavers outside of the US? Is the NSS certifying cavers internationally? Is it a lifetime certification, or does it require ongoing testing? I know this is alot of questions, forgive my ignorance.

September 3, 2003

Here's a follow-up article to the people lost in Hubbard Cave in Colorado (earlier mentioned by SearchRecueDog).

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1602353,00.html?search=filter

What suprised me is that the couple was stranded only 400 feet from the entrance. It just goes to show that you don't have to go in very far to run into trouble sometimes.

George

September 3, 2003

See, if thy'd been Geocachers they could've used that GPS bactrack feature!

50 Degrees ain't all that cold. At 45 to 50 degrees you'd probably die of dehyrdation first.

Anyone who can't limp a few miles on a broken ankle shouldn't leave the comfort of his living room. Tighten up your bootlaces and keep up the pace, ya wimp!

Hell, I had a friend walk two miles on a shattered foot in flip-flops and not go to the doctor until two days later (didn't know it was broken).

Caving is not an extreme sport. The risk is relatively low compared to many other sports.

And the notion that firefighters or other rescue teams would stand at the mouth of a cave and whimper and call the local Grotto to affect the rescue really shows the elitism you project. As if the cavers would know what to do when they got to the victim. Leave medical treatement to trained experts. Doing CPR unnecessarily can kill a person. Not doing it when it's needed will surely kill a person. Using a touniquette when not needed is dangerous. Not using one when needed can be deadly.

Do you really think the paramedics are gonna hand you their defribulator and say "here Joe... you go in, it's too dangerous for us".

Get out of your macho fantasy world. A cave is just a fargin hole in the ground... anyone with good solid outdoorsman skills and common sense can figure out how far to go and what dangers are present in a situation as simple as a cave.

Anyone that can't tell when he's in over his head is just a victim of chlorine in the gene pool.

I remember the good old days when we were allowed to take risks... like riding a bicycle w/o a helmet, and skateboarding on ground that isn't perfectly level, and swimming in ponds and rivers. I remember when you could actually get within 50 feet of the edge of a cliff and look down. Then, one or two people lose their balance and it becomes instant suction to your death.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

September 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mark 42:
See, if thy'd been Geocachers they could've used that GPS bactrack feature!

You have a GPS that works underground?

quote:
50 Degrees ain't all that cold. At 45 to 50 degrees you'd probably die of dehyrdation first.

Sounds like you're a good candidate for hypothermia someday.

quote:
Caving is not an extreme sport. The risk is relatively low compared to many other sports.

Who has claimed caving is an "extreme" sport? It has its risks. They're greater than some activities, but less than others.

quote:
And the notion that firefighters or other rescue teams would stand at the mouth of a cave and whimper and call the local Grotto to affect the rescue really shows the elitism you project.

This is funny. This all-powerful grotto has firefighters at their knees.

quote:
As if the cavers would know what to do when they got to the victim. Leave medical treatement to trained experts.

Agreed. That's why caving rescue groups get trained.

quote:
Doing CPR unnecessarily can kill a person. Not doing it when it's needed will surely kill a person. Using a touniquette when not needed is dangerous. Not using one when needed can be deadly.

Do you really think the paramedics are gonna hand you their defribulator and say "here Joe... you go in, it's too dangerous for us".

Again, cave rescue teams have some medical training. Check out http://www.caves.org/io/ncrc/ for more information.

quote:
Get out of your macho fantasy world.

Get out of your ignorance.

quote:
A cave is just a fagin hole in the ground... anyone with good solid outdoorsman skills and common sense can figure out how far to go and what dangers are present in a situation as simple as a cave.

You're exactly the type of person who is likely to need a cave rescue. Cocky and overconfident.

George

September 3, 2003

nincehelser said:

quote:
What suprised me is that the couple was stranded only 400 feet from the entrance. It just goes to show that you don't have to go in very far to run into trouble sometimes

It is surprising just how many people get lost, and under what conditions. Getting lost in a cave is a little more understandable, and doesn't get me shaking my head nearly as much as some of the local stories that keep popping up in our local papers out here in the Salt lake valley.

Seems, every few weeks, people get themselves lost and need rescued while on the western slopes of the Wasatch mountains. If you see the areas they get lost in, it's absolutely amazing. East = up, the mountain tops, and views of the whole world it sometimes seems. West = down, major metro areas. It's easy find spots where you can see the cities, and all you have to do is go downhill to get out of there, yet rescues take place a couple times a month during the summer because the people get lost.

While it doesn't look as though we agree on the relative risks involved in different outdoor adventures, It would appear we may have some common ground in thinking some should never venture away from the sofa.

September 3, 2003

No, just well prepared.

I had a cave on my land in Alabama. I always wanted to go in and check it out, but the entrance had partially collapsed many years earlier, so it would have been a tight squeeze. I didn't feel safe trying to go in, in spite of many years of outdoor experience, including rock climbing. So, I contacted the local speleoligical society, and was going to have them come out and have a look, and help me go in with their guidance. Unfortunately, my job went away and I had to transfer to Seattle before I could make the arrangements with the (coordinating schedules).

If my nephews had been visiting, I might not have waited. They are also experienced outdoorsmen, and we probably would have taken three of four of us in together to see if we could find an entrance. Would have used a guideline and spooled it out so we could follow it back out and not get lost.

I know GPS won't work underground. There's this new thing... called humor...

I personally have gone six hours in just a pair of shorts, a tee shirt, and running shoes in sub 45 degree temperatures. The notion that a person who is an experienced outdoorsman will be overcome by hypothermia in an hour or two in 45 to 50 degree conditions is ludicrous. In 45 to 50 degree water... that's a whole different animal.

I'll match my survival skills against anyone's. I seriously doubt that exploring a cave is a high risk activity for a person with common sense and outdoor experience... even if he's not an elite "cave expert". It's all a matter of knowing when it's time to turn around, and making provisions to do so. Whether it's riding motorcycles into the woods, rock climbing, spelunkering, hiking, or going into the tornado strewn mess that your kids call "their room".

I was 12 yrs old when I got certified as a scuba diver (NASDS)... there were only a few things that weren't common snse. You can now go on a dive in the carribbean after a 1 hour classroom instruction session. My wife did this... and I don't recommend it unless you are a person who is very comfortable in and under the water, and are pretty well versed in general marine safety. I ended up spending most of the dive holding the hand of a panicked student. My wife was uncomfortable under the water with unfamiliar equipment.

But, when I was 12, I had been sailing, snorkeling, surfing, and swimming for a few years already, so once I learned about air embolism and bottom times to avoid decompression, I was ready to (and did) strap on a tank and make bubbles. I never had a moment of fear. Other people have to get used to swimming with the extra drag of the tank, breathing underwater, and being surrounded by marine life. I took to it immediately, but not everyone does.

When I learned to hang glide, I took to it almost immediately. When it got too windy to continue prctice flights on the sand dune, we were told to walk the gliders down to the bottom of the hill. I asked the instructor "Can I fly it down?". He'd seen how at home I was in the air (including high altitude dual instruction), so for me he made an exception. I think he knew that if I had got into lift, I would have just flown until I got out in front of the hill where there is no lift, and landed.

My point is everyone is different. Some people who may never have been in a cave would be perfectly safe in one anyways. They have had enough situations in life to know what they can handle, and will back down before they get in over their heads.

And, sometimes they will mis judge. I'm sure even the best trained spelunkerers are guilty of this. That is when you draw on common sense, logic, and other life experiences to figure out what action will work to get back to safety.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

[This message was edited by Mark 42 on September 03, 2003 at 12:56 PM.]

September 3, 2003

quote:
At 45 to 50 degrees you'd probably die of dehyrdation first.

Would you like me to site examples of the number of elderly walk-aways that end up dead second to hypothermia in moderate temps. I just had one durring a search mission this spring.

quote:
And the notion that firefighters or other rescue teams would stand at the mouth of a cave and whimper and call the local Grotto to affect the rescue really shows the elitism you project. As if the cavers would know what to do when they got to the victim. Leave medical treatement to trained experts. Doing CPR unnecessarily can kill a person. Not doing it when it's needed will surely kill a person. Using a touniquette when not needed is dangerous. Not using one when needed can be deadly.

Do you really think the paramedics are gonna hand you their defribulator and say "here Joe... you go in, it's too dangerous for us".

If you dont believe this from the cavers then let me let you in on a little secret. The closest I have ever got to caving (other than confined space work) would be touring a commercial cave. I am however a FireFighter and Search & Rescue Tech. If you think that a local rescue squad or fire department will handle a cave rescue you have a big shock comming to you. That is why the National Cave Rescue Commision is around. And, by the way, there is a reason than "Joe" gets a Zoll handed to him, It's because NCRC teams have EMTs and Paramedics. Yes, The NCRC is part of the NSS and most are part of local grottos.

Another big concern for Fire & EMS crews is that there is no VHF or UHF radio communication in caves. That is why NCRC teams have communication techs that lay hard-wired phone systems into the cave as they go.

This is no different than mine rescue. Your local fire department will call for a special mine rescue team. In case you where wondering, mine rescue teams are made of miners not fire/rescue personnel.

quote:
Get out of your macho fantasy world. A cave is just a fargin hole in the ground... anyone with good solid outdoorsman skills and common sense can figure out how far to go and what dangers are present in a situation as simple as a cave.

I guess you monitor air quality when you are camping?

I am not against caching in caves... In fact if the cave is open to recreation I am 100% in favor of a virtual in a cave. However, I am very much against entering one without the proper training. I feel the same way about underwater caches. If it requires SCUBA and you are not certified give up or go take a freaking class.

I actually plan to attend NCRC weekend next year if they offer the Orientation to Cave Rescue again.

Paw%20Print.jpg

Edited for format change

September 3, 2003

I ahve been in a coal mine, and received self rescue training (I'm even certified in use of the self rescue unit by the mining bureau).

But, know, I wouldn't go very deep into a cave.

But I would expect the odds of encountering bad air (methane, C02, etc.) probably are not very high for the short distances that I would go into a cave without getting someone with proper training to escort be. I seriously doubt I'd go more than 100 yds, even if it looked like it wouldn't be a problem to continue, unless I saw a lot of footprints (coming out )

BTW, how do you know I don't play well with others...

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

September 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mark 42:
I personally have gone six hours in just a pair of shorts, a tee shirt, and running shoes in sub 45 degree temperatures. The notion that a person who is an experienced outdoorsman will be overcome by hypothermia in an hour or two in 45 to 50 degree conditions is ludicrous. In 45 to 50 degree water... that's a whole different animal.

But it happens. People's bodies are different...different metabolisim, fitness, medical coditions, etc. It's kind of foolish to say that just because *YOU* haven't yet fell victim, that others won't.

quote:
I'll match my survival skills against anyone's.

What bravado.

quote:
I seriously doubt that exploring a cave is a high risk activity for a person with common sense and outdoor experience... even if he's not an elite "cave expert". It's all a matter of knowing when it's time to turn around, and making provisions to do so. Whether it's riding motorcycles into the woods, rock climbing, spelunkering, hiking, or going into the tornado strewn mess that your kids call "their room".

It depends on a lot of factors. Caves come in all sorts of difficulty levels. Conditions can change rapidly in a cave (e.g. flooding) There are varying levels of risk.

[rambling bragging deleted]

quote:
My point is everyone is different.

Uh, yeah. Like I said, people have different bodies. Just because you seem to think you're immune to hypothermia, doesn't mean everyone else is.

quote:
Some people who may never have been in a cave would be perfectly safe in one anyways. They have had enough situations in life to know what they can handle, and will back down before they get in over their heads.

Yep. Some. So why are you generalizing that caves are inherently safe for the whole population? (or at least certain elite outdoorsmen)

quote:
And, sometimes they will mis judge. I'm sure even the best trained spelunkerers are guilty of this. That is when you draw on common sense, logic, and other life experiences to figure out what action will work to get back to safety.

Yep. Everyone makes mistakes.

George

September 3, 2003

Don't have me start a website GEOCAVING.COM

Just kidding.

Jeremy, register the name.

September 3, 2003

I think you guys are missing a few points on these two people's hypothermia. These people were in there for 5 days. No food, and no water. And in horizontal passage to boot. Not just a couple of hours, or even a day or two. I'm having a hard time believing that they were not dehydraited, let alone hypothermic. EMT's looked at them on site and let them go because they were OK. So cavers rescue cavers, miners rescue miners, and in this case, friends rescued friends. The cave is a very well knonw cave in the area and they were all locals. The friends became very upset when when they were not allowed to go rescue them the night before. A friend flew over and found their car. Not a search and rescue plane. For some reason I don't think this is a good example of two morons lost in a cave. Their story doesn't add up. Maybe the media is missing something? Nah, that couldn't happen, could it?

Just my two cents.

Flame on!!!!!!!!!!

September 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jaime and Jason:
Here seems to be an important difference between cavers and cachers:

Cavers ("good" cavers) have invested lots of time and money into caving equipment and information.

This is also true of some cachers. But the very friendliness of the sport means that anyone with a few bucks for a GPS can go. If you've ever seen pictures from a geocaching event, cachers are not *always* the most fit, outdoorsy, athletic types. Geocaching appeals to a wide range.

Jaime and Jason

Team Cacheopeia

image ©scienceandart.com -- used with permission

Sorry, I've missed a few days. Let me see, I would be lead to believe all cavers are outstanding athletes in top form, Let's be honest, there all types in all activities, be they thin, fat, educated or ignorant.

The fact that some people that are you may have seen at a cache event that aren't the epitome of physical health doesn't mean that they would run into a cave if they saw one. Especially with the size of the opening of some caves I've been to. And you never know when a bald grizzly bear might be in there watching you.

If you would search through some older threads you'd be amazed at how much gear people have for caching, I was personally glad to see so I'd know I wasn't the only lunatic with all sorts of gear.

The whole point is "Accidents Happen!" No matter how good shape your in, how expensive your gear is, when it's your time, your going... How many highly trained, skilled corpses are on mountains, in caves or in the forest?

Always consider yourself a student, you can always learn more!

September 4, 2003

To summarize my viewpoint:

Place & Post the cache.

Find out if the cave is very dangerous,

or just a walk in the park.

Warn people as to the actual risk level of the cave.

Ask that people respect the cave by not defacing

it or taking anything out of it.

Let people decide for themselves what they are going to do with the information.

"I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

September 4, 2003

Some clarification on several misconceptions I read.

-most hypothermia in caves results from unusual conditions, people entering in t-shirts, people lost/exausted/hungry/dehydrated/injured, and not surprisingly, shock! (I usually exit a cave perspiring from exertion while wearing cover-alls over jeans/sweatshirt/etc.)

-crawling around in a cave is very tiring, and often the most physical activity people have undertaken since childhood. You might walk, crawl, squeeze, head upside down, sideways, roll, bend, climb, walk on an angle or bent at the waist... All that unusual stuff is tiring. (Heck, you never have flat footing, it's uneven rock, mud, gravel, sand, usually with water flowing nearby.)

-sure enough, regular police/fire/emt's contact cavers and then the cavers turn the victims over for medical treatment as appropriate. Each to their own expertise of course!

-just like anybody can buy a hang-glider and run down a hill then jump of cliffs with no certification/training, people can do the same w/caves if they want. Just because the USHGA offers varying levels of certification doesn't mean anyone verifies it!

-heck, I've witnessed 'locals' in caves without helmets!!! (Boy scouts and whatnot...)

In terms of cache placements, just remember to actually contact the owners, as each cave obviously has unique issues... (Many private wild caves have logbooks already as the owners like records of their visitors!)

There's a cave I can remember down in the TAG area (Tenn/AL/GA) where people went to watch the bat flights complete with observation platforms. That would be a great spot for a cache!

Enjoy,

Randy

September 4, 2003

I have two comments,

In countries such as Russia and Poland, you do have to become certified before you can go to/explore caves. Luckily our country still has the freedom of choice as far as caving goes. It's too bad you have to be certified to get scuba tanks filled. We should have the total freedom to endanger and drown ourselves if we want. There are way too many laws that protect people from themselves in this country. The freedom of Darwinism is what I'm talking about.

I also got some inside poop on the lost cavers in Colorado. They were in there "waiting" for 20 hrs. tops. That's all I can say, but things are not as they appear to be in this case of two morons lost in a cave.

Member: Colorado MADRATS

1.4k · September 4, 2003

I'm not really into caving and have only been in caves that have been 'commercialized' i.e. Ruby Falls, Rickwood Caverns, etc but it does seem that most cavers are very secretive so I have a question about this statement:

I don't see any geocaching contingent at work days. I don't see them in caves cleaning out trash or removing graffiti.

How the heck can we come help when no one will tell us where the caves are?

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jeff35080:

_I don't see any geocaching contingent at work days. I don't see them in caves cleaning out trash or removing graffiti._

How the heck can we come help when no one will tell us where the caves are?

....

Contact a local grotto. Let them know you're available for volunteer work. It's just a matter of talking to the right people.

George

1.4k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Contact a local grotto. Let them know you're available for volunteer work. It's just a matter of talking to the right people.

Yes, I knew I could do that. I was just curious if any of these groups actively advertise for volunteers as it may help attract people to your hobby of caves. If people don't know about these types of events, they won't be able to volunteer or learn more about the hobby.

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

September 4, 2003

quote:
Yes, I knew I could do that. I was just curious if any of these groups actively advertise for volunteers as it may help attract people to your hobby of caves. If people don't know about these types of events, they won't be able to volunteer or learn more about the hobby

We don't take an add out in the newspaper, but neither do geocachers. If you were interested in caving and joined the NSS, you would receive the NSS News which advertises clean-up events regularly. I'm sure if a group of your geocaching friends wants to volunteer your time to help clean up a local party cave, you would find someone in the local grotto that would be more than happy to point you to a cave. This would be the same if we wanted to help clean up a favorite goecache site. We would ask geocachers where to find one. Now if you want to come out to Colorado, I'll take you with to remove Krylon from some cave walls around here. All you got to do is ask and show up.

Member: Colorado MADRATS

September 8, 2003

Today's Krylon could be tomorrow's "Tribal cave paintings".

The cave on my property in Alabama supposedly had indian cave paintings in it. As I said, I never got a chance to check it out. I regret that now though.

1.4k · September 8, 2003

The cave on my property in Alabama supposedly had indian cave paintings in it. As I said, I never got a chance to check it out. I regret that now though.

Where in AL?

Here in Alabama there are hundreds of caves. There is actually one on the beat where I work, but not too many people know about it, even though it is right off a highly travelled road. The State of Alabama operates Rickwood Caverns State Park and has just opened the Cathedral Caverns State Park. I enjoy the commercial cave tours i.e. Ruby Falls, Lost Sea, etc but would be somewhat hesitant to venture into an unknown cave alone without an experienced guide.

madratdan posted this in response to one of my questions:

All you got to do is ask and show up.

Soooo.... assuming someone such as myself wanted to get involved in this type of activity, where would I find a 'grotto'? It's not like they are listed in the Yellow Pages.

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

September 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jeff35080:
Soooo.... assuming someone such as myself wanted to get involved in this type of activity, where would I find a 'grotto'? It's not like they are listed in the Yellow Pages.

www.Caves.org is the website of the National Speleological Society. Simply select your State from the drop-down menu and voila!

(And you said they weren't in the yellow pages...)

Flipping open my membership manual, I count eight grottos in AL! Wow...

Grin,

Randy

1.4k · September 8, 2003

Thanks Randy, if I ever get any free time I may contact the local group here in B'ham.

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

September 8, 2003

Here is a better link to the grotto's page. Their are 8 grottos in Alabama. There is also a large concentration of cavers in the TAG area. (Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia) For that matter, the NSS office is in Huntsville. Hope this helps.

Dan

Geocachers vs Cavers....continued?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment