compass

June 17, 2003

I'm new to geocaching and am looking for a decent GPS. One feature that seems nice and useful is the compass that some of these sport, so you can check direction without moving. I've been looking around and, in order to get a Garmin that does this, you have to pay a good bit (much more than entry level). The Garmin that has attracted my attention -- the Legend -- doesn't do this. It can, however, be had for $149 after rebate. The other I've been looking at is the Magellan SportTrak Map which does seem to have a compass. It is around $170-175. If I were to buy maps to go with it I could get a $50 rebate, but I'm not sure I want/need maps right now. Both of these units have (limited) mapping capabilities.

Is the extra $25 (after rebate on the Legend) worth getting the compass functionality? [Converesely, if you ignore the hassle of the rebate, would it be better to save $25 and get the SportTrak?]

Also, I'm in hilly, wooded middle Tennessee. Would one of these be a better choice with regard to the lay of the land here?

I've seen other posts asking about a similar comparison, but I am particularly interested in the compass feature, so started a separate thread.

Thanks for your help!

--somedumbguy

5.3k · June 17, 2003

ST Map does not have a compass. It has Northfinder. This puts an icon of the sun/moon on the "compass" screen that you can use to spin your unit around to determine your orientation while standing still. This works sufficiently well except in the dark during a new moon or at a time when the sun is exactly above you and so on.

SportTrak color, like the Meridian Platinum, does has a "real" compass and includes Magellan's 3-axis compass (it has inclinometers) and does a respectable job even when the compass isn't perfectly level.

Every unit that I know of that has a built-in compass will get you out of the price range you're citing. The players in the compass game are Magellans SportTrak color and Meridian Platinum and Garmin's Vista and 76S. All are mapping units becuase most folks that will spend the > $10 to upgrade from a Silva want maps.

Come to a Middle TN geocaching club meeting and you'll be able to fondle most of these units. (ST Color only started shipping this week and I don't know of any locals that have one yet...)

Personally, given a choice between maps and a compass, I'd take maps (Topo) in a heartbeat and carry a decent magnetic compass.

June 17, 2003

Thanks for your reply. How much memory do you need for the mapping feature to be useful? In other words, how big is a typical map? And how expensive is a typical map?

With regard to the eTrex legend and SportTrak Map, which one would you go with? One thing that I'm concerned about is, if the memory on these units isn't sufficient for useful maps, maybe I'd be better off buying a plain vanilla eTrex, or something like that, for less. Then again, the Legend (after rebate) is similar in price to the Venture. Thanks again,

--somedumbguy

5.3k · June 17, 2003

In MapSend Topo, a rectangular map capturing the state of Tennessee would require between 19 and 20 MB. I think Topo is selling for about $70 or so (amazon is a good place to check), and there is are rebates ranging from $25 to $75 depending on what combination of software/GPS you get.

I have a Meridian; the SD card gives you expandable memory so you can get, well, more maps than you need. The limited memory of a SporTrak can work well, I think, if you don't have much need to change maps frequently...i.e., if you stay within a certain area most of the time. If you travel enough to require lots of maps, switching (and possibly having to haul along a laptop) would make it rough.

Max

Often wrong but seldom in doubt

5.3k · June 17, 2003

I'll give uyou Magellan answers in local terms. All answers are with Topo and all POI's turned on.

I set my local maps to hold from the north side of Clarksville to the south side of Huntsville.

An ST Map (not Pro) has 6MB and will reach from Paris to Coalmont.

The 330 has 8MB and will hold from just west of Bruceton to the other side of Chattannooga.

An ST Map Pro will hold more. (I don't have one of those.)

A Meridian with 128MB gets you from Chicago to New Oleans to Jacksonvill. (I have a more details answer recently.)

If you travel enough that you have to shuffle maps frequently over a serial port, Meridian with its ability to load maps over USB is a clear win. I find the 6-8MB map memory to be big enough for most impulse day trips and loading new maps is "only" about a 20 minute task serially so it can be done while packing.

June 17, 2003

Depending on how far from civilization you stray, you should carry a map and compass for times when Mr. Murphy visits you and plays with your GPS. I usually navigate with both my GPS and a compass. You can get a decent compass for less than $25

When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.

Henny Youngman (1906 - 1998)

June 17, 2003

The key phrase you want to look for is "electronic compass." The lower-end models advertise a compass feature, but they require movement or, as on the SporTrak, a visible sun or moon. That was my only disappointment with the SporTrak Pro. I was looking forward to having a compass that didn't require movement, and it was only after I bought it that I realized the importance of "electronic" in the description (and the lack of it in the STP description).

June 17, 2003

Save your money. Buy a real compass. I have a Legend with "Roads and Recreation" maps, I can get 90% of the State of Wisconsin downloaded on its 8mb of memory.

4.5k · June 18, 2003

somedumbguy, you didn't mention where you live. That could change the advice you're getting. For example if you live in an urban area like me, the extra memory (24 megs) of a Vista comes in handy because of all the roads. Plus the Vista has the electronic compass which makes caching simpler, for me, because I don't need to have my second hand occupied with a separate compass.

Also, if creating autoroutes might be of interest to you, Metroguide mapping will give you this option. However, again, wiht Metro you want more memory because it eats up more of it do to the extra features, routing, po9ints of interest, etc. (The Vista does not autoroute in the unit, but you can do it in you PC then transfer the route to the GPS)

I have a Vista and would recommend it if you can come up with the additional 70 dolars or so over the Legend. The Vista's 3 times memory, electronic compass is really helpful. The Vista but not the Legend also has an altimeter that can second as a barometer, weather forecaster that some serious hikers reported they find very helpful. It let's them know when bad weather is approaching especially important in mountain hiking/caching. The alstimeter is nice as it''ll show you the elevation track of gains and loses.

Note that both units come with a base map of roads, so you won't need mapping immediately.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Alan

June 18, 2003

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. If I were to go up to a more capable model, I wonder if it would be better to go with the eTrex Vista or the Meridian Platinum. These seem to be roughly comparable units in terms of features, but the Platinum can be had for $257 - $50 rebate, or $207. That sounds to me like a pretty good deal, but I'm still not sure of the ins and outs of these things yet. Thanks again for your help, and please let me know what you think.

By the way, when I said I'm new to this, I meant I'm *really* new -- I've borrowed a friend's eTrex Venture and will be going after my first cache as soon as I get the time. Hopefully tonight, but that depends on the weather and what time I get home. When I first visited geocaching.com I found out that there's a cache less than half a mile from my house! I'm pretty sure I could find that one without a GPS, but I'm going to use the Venture just the same. If nothing else, it will give my 5 year old son something to do while we're looking for it.

somedumbguy

P.S. I live in a pretty urban area, but there's a lot of hills and fairly dense foliage around here, as well.

24.7k · June 18, 2003

Almost all GPS's have a compass rose. But as has been pointed out not all have an eletronic compass.

You have to be moving for the normal 'compass' to work. This is a hard concept for some people (like my kids) to grasp. The electronic compasses work when you are not moving also. This seems to be more intuitive to most people who think of all compasses as similar to "Silva"

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

June 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by 2ManyHobbies:
I have a Legend with "Roads and Recreation" maps, I can get 90% of the State of Wisconsin downloaded on its 8mb of memory.

Dang. I've got a Legend and can only get half of L.A. County loaded...

--

Random fortune:

sigimage.php

June 18, 2003

I would also vote to forget about the compass on the GPS and go for a regular baseplate compass. The Brunton Eclipse fits the bill nice.

June 18, 2003

This is 'somedumbguy' here. We found our first cache tonight and I had to change my handle in deference to the wishes of my five year old son. I will heretofore be known as 'Croc Hunter.' Very fun. I'm definitely going to pick up a GPS of my own!

5.3k · June 18, 2003

Since a few folks have pooh-poohed the electronic compass, I'll speak in its defense. I have a Meridian Platinum, and I love the compass for caching. I always carry a regular compass for backup, but it is great to push a button on the Plat and have the compass point directly to your desired waypoint.

With the regular compass you have to fish it out, find where north is, and then line up your GPS compass screen to north to find the direction to your waypoint. Yeah, it's not all that much work...but it *is* more work.

If money is an issue, you can get along without the electronic compass just fine. Those who don't have an electronic compass generally don't miss it. But few of us who've used one would want to go back. So if money is not that much of an issue, I think you'll be as glad as I am to have sprung for the Plat.

Max

Often wrong but seldom in doubt

4.5k · June 19, 2003

My owning a Vista is the only difference between what Max said and what I feel. Not having a built-in electronic compass for caching is about the same as not having the horn button on the steering wheel or column.

Alan

June 19, 2003

I've used both compass and non-compass units many times. The only thing a compass knows how to do is to point to magnetic North. That's it. Nothing else. So why turn it into a device that requires batteries and costs a whole bunch more? It won't point any more North.....An $8.00 magnetic compass is just as quick and just as accurate. It also doesn't requuire calibration.

"Never take a sunset for granted. Stop what you are doing and enjoy it. You never know when it may be your last"

June 20, 2003

I have both a Legend (no compass) and a Vista (compass). In my experienced opinion the compass it WAY overrated. It's nice and all, but the money you pay for it totally cancels out any benefit.

Get the Legend and a regular compass. You won't be sorry. <-- More experience.

9.5k · June 20, 2003

...and in my limited experienced opinion...

If you are a klutz like me, having to deal with fewer devices in my hands such as a combined gps and electronic compass, is a good thing and worth the price.

Cheers!

TL

5.3k · June 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Alphawolf:
I've used both compass and non-compass units many times. The only thing a compass knows how to do is to point to magnetic North. That's it. Nothing else. So why turn it into a device that requires batteries and costs a whole bunch more? It won't point any more North.....An $8.00 magnetic compass is just as quick and just as accurate. It also doesn't requuire calibration.

Well, my Platinum compass does a *little* more than point to North. Because it can identify directions without requiring GPS signal, it will point directly to a waypoint even if you are standing in one spot but turning to face one direction or another. That is something of value to me.

Without that capability I either have to (a) walk a few steps in some direction so the GPS signals can tell the unit which way is which, or ( :mad: compare the GPS compass screen to a hand compass to orient it in the right direction. True, that's not a lot of trouble to go to, but the convenience of the electronic compass was worth the $25 or so more I had to pay for my Plat.

True, I can't ignore the calibration thing...but I've not found that to be a big inconvenience myself.

Max

Often wrong but seldom in doubt

June 21, 2003

After today I'm convinced that the electronic compass would be useful for my purposes. When I go caching I take my 3 and 5 year old sons, so I can't have both hands tied up (GPS in one, compass in the other). And when I get under tree cover it would be nice to be able to get a bead on my heading without being able to pick up satellites.

June 21, 2003

Oh yeah...And one more thing to think about: The electronic compass in a GPSR really shortens your battery life!

"Never take a sunset for granted. Stop what you are doing and enjoy it. You never know when it may be your last"

June 22, 2003

Can you turn the compass off when you don't need it? Or does it shorten battery life no matter what? Thanks,

CrocodileHunter

5.3k · June 22, 2003

The compass does use a little more juice when the feature is active--but only when active. Although my impression is that battery life is cut by something like 5% or 10% (as opposed to cutting it in half or something substantial), you can minimize the impact by using the compass screen only when you need it, and not having any data fields that use compass information (e.g., bearing) display in other screens. COG (course over ground) apparently is based upon GPS rather than compass information, and does not draw the extra power the compass would need.

I get 9 hours of use out of my Plat from rechargeable NiMH batteries (1850 mAH). This is with occasional use of the compass. One set of backups (a prudent piece of gear under any conditions) gets me through the longest of days.

I tend to use the road or map screen while driving, and the map screen while hiking. About the only time the compass is handy for me is the last 100 yards to the cache.

Max

Often wrong but seldom in doubt

9.5k · June 22, 2003

Yes you can. You can even set your compass to take its cue from the GPS by setting it to True and it will lengthen the battery life a bit. But I look at it this way; If I disable the compass, then why did I buy the extra feature for in the first place?

I don't see where this is a real problem though. Afterall, who here does not carry extra batteries? Even still, with my compass active, I get 8 hours usable time with my rechargeable 2000mAh nimh's.

Each of these issues are very very minor.

1. The extra expense of the electronic compass: The naysayers purchased anything from a $6-$50 compass; have to deal with having 2 items in their hands instead of just one and will have alignment issues with their GPSr.

2. The urgings to buy a real compass. The electronic compass IS a real compass! It just isn't loaded with mineral oil and a magnetic needle.

3. The electronic compass may need calibration, but after that calibration... that's it! You don't have to worry about declination. It's built into the GPS table.

4. Battery life. The more features you add to a GPSr, the less battery life you can expect. Carrying extras is highly recommended with any GPSr and getting rechargeables is an even better idea to minimize your costs.

I get 8-10 hours on my rechargeables depending on how I use the MeriPlat. You're going to carry extras regardless of the unit you purchase. If you get rechargeables, you'll have to ask yourself; Where's the big deal about battery life?

Fwiw, I went without rechargeables for 5 months with a Costco brand of a 48 pack of batteries and that was using the MeriPlat almost everyday for hours!

Here's a store that sells 12 2000mAh for $22 and a charger that works on household and auto current for $17.

Cheers!

TL

June 23, 2003

Ok, after reading the arguments I can understand having a compass built into the GPS. I still would never give up my baseplate compass. I do alot more map/compass work in the field then GPS use. I think the ability to point to a waypoint while stationary may be worth a few extra dollars but still couldn't give up my regular compass.

June 23, 2003

I thought I had to have the compass so I purchased the Garmin 76S. I am not all that hot the way the electronic compass works. It states that you don't need to be moving but there are times mine will just freeze in one position until I move a couple of steps. That said it is not all that accurate as I can see. It always is telling me to hold it level and no matter how level I hold it the hold level message is still on. I don't know how long you need to hold it level before this message goes out but sometimes it bever goes out and is really a pain. Another thing I have noticed that while all this is going on your compass reading may not show a direction change or will be off by quite a bit when you turn back to your original position. How do I know this by checking it with a REAL compass. I really could have done without the electronic compass but do like other features of the 76S.

team sidewinde

LOST AND FOUND DEPT.

4.5k · June 23, 2003

Sidewinder: I don't have a 76S but a Vista and have noticed similar things. what I think happens is that a jolt to the unit disengages one of the batteries for a split second. The unit assumes you have installed new batteries and is waiting for you to re-calibrate the compass. I find when I re-calibrate , the "lock" and wierd or no actions of the arrow goes away.

Good luck

ALan

PS DO you have the latest software loaded for the unit?

June 23, 2003

Currently the only GPS unit that has an electronic compass that will give you an accurate reading while holding it in any way is the Sportrak Color. It has a 3-axis compass, so you can hold the thing upsode down and you'll still get an accurate reading. You don't have to hold the compass "level" with this one. I'm getting tired of my summit and have been looking at both the 76s and the Sportrak Color. That 3-axis compass sounds like the cats meow to me.

" Take what is useful and develop it from there"

- Bruce Lee -

9.5k · June 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Clanggedin:
Currently the only GPS unit that has an electronic compass that will give you an accurate reading while holding it in any way is the Sportrak Color. It has a 3-axis compass, so you can hold the thing upsode down and you'll still get an accurate reading. You don't have to hold the compass "level" with this one. I'm getting tired of my summit and have been looking at both the 76s and the Sportrak Color. That 3-axis compass sounds like the cats meow to me.

" Take what is useful and develop it from there"

- Bruce Lee -

You are forgetting the Meridian Platinum. This is the very reason why I bought it along with the expandability of its memory.

Fwiw, I have used electronic compasses that do require being extrememely level in order to work, the early Timex was one of them. Totally useless IMHO.

The Suunto is less sensitive to the need for being level even though mine actually came with a bubble to give a visual, but it still needs to be relatively level to work.

The 3-axis compass can vary by 2-3 degrees in accuracy the more vertical you place it.

Cheers!

TL

[This message was edited by TotemLake on June 24, 2003 at 09:20 AM.]

June 25, 2003

If you like small the Garmin 301 comes with an electronic compass. I've never used the 301, but I have played with the 201 and I really like its size and weight (or lack there of).

Alan

compass

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