An Apology

January 22, 2003

Reguarding The recent flare up on another site:- I feel stupid. I found this site and thought it was a perfect tie in to Geocaching so added some links to caches on certain pages. I thought that the people over there would find geocaching interesting like we all do as it involves a trip to visit an interesting place then finding hidden treasure close by, never did I imagine that this would be the response. I assume they thought geocaching would destroy some of their much loved sites but now they have read the rules I think they have calmed down slightly, maybe they could have done this before slating us. My apologies to everyone really, Firstly to anyone from the Modern Antiquarian, I have obviously misunderstood the purpose of your site, all the fancy colours kind of lead me to believe it was more of a fun than serious thing. I see this now and will not post there again. My apologies to this UK geocaching community too - I had no intention of stiring up any ill feelings and ment no harm, you are in no dowt right that I need to think sometimes and I feel really bad for it. I am in total agreement that I will not attempt to post there again and hope this will die down. I feel really stupid but you live, you learn. There was no need for anyone to get as angry as that though, just some more examples of people getting heated over easily. Threats and swearing are never called for, a simple email to myself stating the rules of their site would have sorted this in seconds flat. Why do people need to be so agressive?

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 22, 2003

I have had I think about all this and other events before hand. I have never attempted to bring this community down or go against its rules and regulations. However, It seems that I have trodden on toes afew times unintentionaly. I always have the best interests at heart, try to make caching as fun as possible and to see the light side of everything but It regualy doesn't seem to fit in around here. For these reasons I will not be using the forums any more or discuss caching anywhere else on the web. I am fed up with it back firing on me. I feel really bad about what has just happened and think this is the best cause of action. I will continue caching, just with a much lower profile. Thankyou all for being such interesting people to talk to and in certain cases such good friends. Good luck with everything you do. Dan.

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 22, 2003

quote:
Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Come on Dan, don't "throw the toys out of the pram". We, (the aged community), need the younger views and opinions.

You, and your compatriot, have given us all considerable amusement over the past year. Put the past couple of weeks down to experience and come back to us.'

Neil

January 22, 2003

Hear hear

Come on Dan - stay with us. Its just not worth beating yourself up over.

I was going to leave these forums a while back but the pleasantness and friendliness of everyone here changed my mind pretty quick. PLease reconsider.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

1k · January 22, 2003

Well what can I say...shocked to say the least! Dont leave Dan, I dont think anyone is that down heartened by our exploits of the antiquarians. Still post here because I dont think theres anyone that doesnt value your opinion.

I won't ever leave, there isn't a point to it it just shows you are giving in to the people you dont like more than anything. Noone dislikes you!

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

3.8k · January 22, 2003

Stay with us Dan. If I had a pound for every time my mouth had got me into trouble (we didn't have forums when I was your age ) I'd be a bloody rich ol' fart instead of a poor one.

As you said youself... put it down to experience. No one here will hold it against ya.

John

Wild Tupperware Hunter

1.2k · January 22, 2003

Dan, don't leave us because of the reaction of a group of self important fanatics on that other site.

Sure you thought your original post was an innocent attempt to engender a common interest. I would agree with you that it was a totally innocuous post. What happened after that was WELL out of order and I for one won't be bothering with their site again.

But don't let it put you off from contributing here. Some people may not always agree with what you are saying. I may not always agree with you but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a world where everybody thought alike. I reckon that on balance the vast majority of geocachers are great people, you only had to have been at the meet on Sunday to realise that. Most discussions on this website remain civilised, if a little agitated at times

So please give us a second chance and stick around.

Remember when making bread you only need a little yeast to make an awful lot of old dough rise (and I class myself in the dough camp before anyone else suggests it!)

Peter

p.s. I've only just come to the forums as I was out doing your two new caches. Many thanks and keep them coming.

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

January 22, 2003

Have just started reading the posts, and what you Have seem to done Dan Is nowt to worry about, you probably thought that it was right , IT WAS.

You wern't to know the sort of reaction that you got, which was an over reaction. So dont let it worry you. it wasn't a mistake you were in your own way trying to do us all a bit of good. So get your self back , I for one will miss reading about your antics, and by reading the rest of the posts on this thread , SO WILL EVERYONE ELSE.

So welcome back Dan

Nige

1.4k · January 22, 2003

Ho Hum,

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you Dan. It's very easy for things to get out of hand in cyberspace. There will be a few more days of missunderstanding and then it wil disapear off the current list and be forgotten about.

Maybe some caches will go missing but what's new there!

Still I had to laugh at this post. He could have picked an easier one to start off with!

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

January 22, 2003

I think this has been yet another example of poor communication over the internet. There is no way that text messages can convey emotion, even with Graemlins , add to that the American love of Buckets (lets face it KFC comes in a "Bucket" but i wouldn't carry water or use it as a geocache) and who ever made first contact was on for a flame .

When you read some ofthe stuff the TMA have had posted it makes you realise what a good job our moderators do!!

So Dan & Pid, carry on caching, having you on the forums is like watching boisterous puppies at play, OK so they chew your slippers occasionaly, but their fine once the Vets given 'em a seeing to!

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

January 22, 2003

I see no need to apologise. You posted a short link to geocaching.com on a site which you could reasonably expect to be inhabited by people who like to get outside and discover new and interesting places. But, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished...

From a quick look at their site, I don't see how you could have forseen that many of the Mod Ants have reverence towards these sites which goes far beyond archaelogical preservation, and view placing an ammo box in view of an ancient site as being akin to placing it inside a cathedral; both being equally sacred. And who see Mam Tor as a sacred hill protesting against road building. (And I thought it was just a big lump of shale that used to be used as a weapon of war but is now great for an afternoon walk or hang gliding!)

At the end of the day, geocaching cannot rely on being secret for its existance. Sooner or later they would have discovered us. They obviously have a top-notch webadmin (wow!) who could scrape all the UK cache coordinates and match them against their site database within hours. We need to be able to negotiate our way, with people both fanatic and burocratic.

January 22, 2003

Well I have been into caching for a few months now and have enjoied the people I have met here so much so I set up my site. But one thing I regret more than anything is not meeting the famous Dan & Pid. It is something that I hope to put right in the near future.

I work in a Sixth Form College we have some 1200 students between 16-19 and a better bunch of people I have yet to meet. Sure we fall out at times but I find that if I give respect to the students they return respect to me that is why I get on with them so well.

Dan you made a mistake but you did not know you where doing so at the time and when you did you tried to put it right. The response that you got was well over the top. If the same had happened on my site it would of been the few that responded in the way they did that would of had some explaining to do. But as in life there are a few people on all sites that respond out of all proportion. I am sure that most all of the useres of the Antiquarian site are fine upstanding people and do not condone what has happened.

All I can say Dan is please reconsider and keep the fun in geocaching because you have made me laugh quite a few times. Without you and Pid geocaching in the UK will be the poorer. And the forums will not be so livley.

Mark (TheCat)

www.geocacheuk.com

January 22, 2003

Dan,

Please don't take too serious an action. What you did was in all innocence and I'm sure by no means did you intend to cause any trouble. Please stay around coz we're all here for you!!

Sarah

Team Tate

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

January 22, 2003

If I walked up to somebody in the street and said Hi, and the reply that I got was something similar to your post I would say Ok, Ignore them and pass them by and talk to some one else. So Don't let them upset you, they may want sectioning under section 2 of the mental health act and brought in for treatment put it down to experience and talk to us , oh er sorry we've already been sectioned

January 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Wilson:
Threats and swearing are never called for, a simple email to myself stating the rules of their site would have sorted this in seconds flat. Why do people need to be so agressive?

What did you do wrong?

You misunderstood the purpose of their site (perhaps some sort of statement of purpose on the index page would have reduced the confusion). The appropriate action on their part would have been an explanatory note followed by removal or locking of the thread (well you know how I feel about removal ) But no, *some* people went off the deep end. Actually, others were supportive of the geocaching sport. I only read a few randomly selected posts and opinions seemed to be evenly distributed.

Going off the deep end is pretty common on the Internet because people forget that it is a public place or forget that typed messages don't transmit emotions very well. I've fallen foul of these problems myself several times

I don't think you owe us an apology. You do owe TMA an apology for your original post which was inappropriate to the site's content. OTOH some of their members owe you an apology for behaving like thoughtless idiots.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

January 22, 2003

if you would to leave the hobby, we (the aged community) would only be able to 'Extract the Michael' out of Pid for some of the 'more interesting' aspects of the sport that you two have got up to.

Take what Chis Packham said as a compliment - You're unique!

Bob

Team Tate

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

January 22, 2003

quote:
Take what Chis Packham said as a compliment - You're unique!

Actually, that's a good point.

Dan, Pid, you've been called a lot of other things now, too!

Oh, and for what it's worth, stay with us, Dan. It just wouldn't be the same without you!

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

January 22, 2003

Dan,

I've just read through all of the Geocaching related postings on the MA site.

As they say, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure everybody here is aware that you didn't intend to start the flame war that occured. Looking at the postings most of it was a small number of users on that site, the rest of the users giving a much more conciliatory response.

Certainly I can see no reason why you should feel that you shouldn't be posting to this site as a result of the reaction you have recieved elsewhere.

Richard

January 22, 2003

Dan

I was the first to answer to your original post and like you I went to the site and misunderstood the purpose of it.

I thought the original idea of the book that formed the site was to encourage "History Tourism"

I would say that "There but for the grace of god go I"

I would maybe have spent more time and possibly posted to the site if I had not been busy through the night, and it could be me getting flack from the people on that site now.

I would just chalk it up to experience and let it lie.

We are all hoping that you don't leave the forum as your posts often give a much needed balance to the discussions and often bring us back to earth with your "lighten up" comments.

Well Dan, "lighten up" it is after all just a search for Tupperware!

I woke this morning and my boat was not rocking...for one horrid moment I thought I lived in a house!

January 22, 2003

Dan,

It's refreshing to hear your views and I'd hate to see anyone being "drummed out" because they were prepared to speak out. Everyone is entitled to speak their opinion and freedom of speech should not lead to the abuse and "hate mail" which has been forthcoming from a few on the TMA site.

Dave

January 22, 2003

I apologise for being more than a little harsh sounding in an earlier posting. I posted the message at the height of todays flame war, and my thought was of wholesale cache trashing and banning of caches. Hopefully this has been averted by some tactful moderation and an outbreak of level headedness.

I'm sure lots of lessons have been learned by lots of people, not just you. We, as a group need to keep being careful about how we behave as the alternative of regulation being imposed upon us, if we can't regulate ourselves is far worse (paying for permits to plant caches anybody?)

January 22, 2003

No, Dan, please don't go from this forum. As someone once said to me on here, you are welcome to express your opinions and the forum would be poorer without them. I have met you in person, and I think, if you had attended the meet last sunday, you would not now be wanting to leave us.

Two notable quotes come to mind:

The first is from Voltaire who notably said 'I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it' Even those who may not like what you say should be prepared to read and listen to it.

The second is from Churchill, who despite his amazing place in our hearts as one who could do no wrong, was in fact often proved wrong, and made to eat his words. In this light, when asked how he felt about having to eat his own words, replied that he had needed to do so on many occasions during his life, and had in fact found them to be a very nourishing diet.

So eating humble pie is not a bad thing, and as you have demonstrated, is part of everyone's learning curve. Be proud of yourself for the fact that, in apologising, you have done something which, on the other forum, your supposed 'elders and betters' have been unable to do so far. How much elder and better are *you* now?

I will be posting my own thoughts on this turbulent day on a new thread, because they cover several overlapping topics and I don't want to get offtopic in this thread.

(Tagline temporarily disabled as a mark of respect)

[This message was edited by MCL on January 22, 2003 at 06:26 PM.]

January 22, 2003

Thanks everyone for your unexpected support. Unexpected because I failed to put enough trust in this communities understanding. I decided to leave these forums because I assumed that everyone would want to see the back of me but instead everyone has gathered like a pack of lions to defend this sport and freedom of speach. It says to me that people out there who appose us will have to do a lot more than threaten us to keep us down. Hopefully by now the people at Modern Antiquarian will have a better understanding of our rules and understand that I was simply trying to intertwine our two communites. Unfortunatly it seems my choice of words was again poor, for this reason I really will shut up from now on. If you will have me back I couldn't think of anything better, this has had me down all day, I couldn't believe it when Pid messaged me about it this morning. Sorry again to Anyone who this has or will effect. I cant understand why my posting has lead to threats being made to people, I suppose some people just have very different oppinions on things. Thankyou again everyone, reading this was a breath of fresh air, I think I am on the verge of crying Dan.

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 23, 2003

Okay, now things have quietened down, and June and I have caught up with the work we should have done, we can get around to posting a reply here. Why is it that priorities intefere with things we want to do?

I think we should take a closer look at the events leading up to this. I saw the posting suggesting "take a look at this site". I thought that's handy, shame there are only a few places in Hampshire. As others, I did not realise the significance of their locations and was somewhat stunned to see their reactions. I think that their Webmaster needs to address how their site describes itself so that others do not incur the same wrath.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that we need younger guys like you on board. All of your caches we have done, we have found enjoyable and interesting to say the very least. Certainly better quality than many.

I think the geocacing community in the UK has shown that we have respect for others and their passtimes even if they have demonstrated that they do not reciprocate. That's good for us and shameful on them.

Right, it's time to move on now and get on with the things we enjoy, finding nice places to visit with an added bonus.

Tim & June (Winchester)

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong !

January 23, 2003

What is that thingymabob at the end of your sig line ?

Tim & June

January 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:
What is that thingymabob at the end of your sig line ?

Tim & June

It looks like a GeoBadger to us.

Dan..

Glad you decided to stay.

Just remember when Xavier is your age you will be the (the aged community), with 18 years experience, probably "Head Moderator"

Tech-no notice

January 23, 2003

Only just round to reading all this broohaha on TMA's forums. Jeez!

Just glad I didn't go to THEIR Christmas social.

Still: "Different horses for different courses", I s'pose.

Mark

----------------------

I was technical once

January 23, 2003

Having read some of the discussion on the website concerned, I have to say that I could have predicted the response!

Imagine, for a moment, that someone came on here who had no interest in Geocaching and barged into the forums saying that they had a great idea for leaving stuff that only they would be interested in, in existing Geocaches. Would they be welcomed with open arms, especially if it appeared that their items might well fill up the caches and expose them to being removed?

In fact, I predict that more caches will be lost over the next few weeks as a result of the flame war on that site, and not all of them at Ancient sites either!

If you did what you did on UseNet (also known as Newsgroups) you would probably have received the same treatment. People are very protective of 'their' forums and particular interest. The accepted protocol is to subscribe and read some of the postings, to get a feel for the type of forum and what may interest them. Often this is termed Lurking.

Thinking that people who are 'into' very old sites are going to be well impressed with people leaving things lying around and then, possibly, damaging their precious sites, was a bit naive, to say the least!

I don't think Geocaching has made many friends in this episode.

--... ...--

Morseman

January 23, 2003

My thoughts on all of this (seemed like a good enough place as any to post them)...

It's unfortunate what has happened, and while it appears the MA lot have been quite unreasonable at times, I think the blame really lies at misunderstanding.

As Morseman has just said, web forums and the more old-fashioned newsgroups can be quite 'cliquey' places. Newcomers have a habit of being treated with suspicion. From many years experience of this, I've always made sure I read a forum for at least several days, often a couple of weeks, before I post to it. That way you get to know a bit about the regulars, their style, what's acceptable and what isn't.

I was very pleased when I started reading these GC forums that people seemed open, friendly, chatty - serious about their pastime of caching, but happy to discuss other related things and generally be a 'community' of people in every sense of the word.

Some forums aren't. Some forums are full of people who are very set in their ways about their particular corner of the world. It happens; we have to deal with it.

Give this a few days and it'll blow over. T&J have done what's necessary in their role as admin. At the end of the day, I know from the people I met at Winchester last weekend that we're not out to do harm, we're not out to destroy places, we have the countryside very much in mind. And most of all, we seem to be a sensible bunch who'll listen to complaints and deal with them.

'Nuff said.

Oh, and Dan, it's good to have you back...

--

Seek and ye shall find (tupperware, ammo boxes, bears, free ISP CDs...)

January 23, 2003

Hey Dan,

Glad you're staying - I'd miss the entertainment if you left!

Like the others have said, we all make mistakes (one day I'll tell you about the time we snuck out of our boarding houses and got completely bladdered on the communion wine they'd left out in the Meeting House at school)and at the end of the year we'll probably look back at recent events with a smile on our faces. Besides, it'll probably come part of UK Geocaching History - along with He Who Shall Not Be Named.

Keep on caching,

Two Bears

January 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Morseman:
Having read some of the discussion on the website concerned, I have to say that I could have predicted the response!

Imagine, for a moment, that someone came on here who had no interest in Geocaching and barged into the forums saying that they had a great idea for leaving stuff that only they would be interested in, in existing Geocaches. Would they be welcomed with open arms, especially if it appeared that their items might well fill up the caches and expose them to being removed?

In fact, I predict that more caches will be lost over the next few weeks as a result of the flame war on that site, and not all of them at Ancient sites either!

If you did what you did on UseNet (also known as Newsgroups) you would probably have received the same treatment. People are very protective of 'their' forums and particular interest. The accepted protocol is to subscribe and read some of the postings, to get a feel for the type of forum and what may interest them. Often this is termed Lurking.

Thinking that people who are 'into' very old sites are going to be well impressed with people leaving things lying around and then, possibly, damaging their precious sites, was a bit naive, to say the least!

I don't think Geocaching has made many friends in this episode.

--... ...--

Morseman

I put it down to me being too expectant of other people being as friendly and as welcoming as myself. If they did post on this site in the way you mentioned some of us may call for them to be banned and retaliate, however I would look for understanding and offer a chance to explain. It made me really sad that people could be so offensive towards myself without even giving me that chance. Most of the people on the MA site have turned out to be ok in my book after reading all the posts when I got in last night, they just need to think before they jump in next time like maybe I do. My jump was meant with best interests though and that was what upset me. The world would be be a much happier place if some people dropped their angry, agressive attitudes and just smiled a bit more.

P.S Tim and June, the icon is a Nodding Badger giving a peace sign. Perfect for both the geocaching community and the MA people

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Wilson:
I put it down to me being too expectant of other people being as friendly and as welcoming as myself. If they did post on this site in the way you mentioned some of us may call for them to be banned and retaliate, however I would look for understanding and offer a chance to explain.

OK, so I probably went a bit over the top as well, sorry.

However, it is almost always a good idea to lurk on other forums before posting and to do a bit of reading of the aims and objectives of a site before upsetting the locals. Something I too learned the hard way on Newsgroups.

--... ...--

Morseman

January 23, 2003

I have definatly learned a lot of things from this experience

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

An Apology

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