gm100guy Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 This is an update on what is happening with Geocaching in Ontario Parks as of this week We have made contact with the ministry and they are forming a task team to study and come up with a formal policy on Geocaching in the parks. We are lucky to have a Geocacher who works for the ministry and she has been contacted and will be a member of the task team. As it now stands the ministry is collecting information and working inside. After they have met and come up with a draft policy we will be contacted and have input into what they have decided. I would like to ask all as stated in the letter received by the government that the only caches they want in parks now are virtual caches. I hope after we get a formal policy this may change and traditional caches maybe allowed. To keep updated and informed go to the web site below and I will be keeping all informed there on further developments. Geocaching in Ontario Gm100guy and all concerned Ontario Geocachers gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Went to this cache with some Parks folks today. It was a very positive experience. Now they have an idea what geocaching is about, and now we can move to the discussions. I am very optimistic that this will have an outcome all groups will be happy with. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
naturenerd Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I'm glad to see that there is something happening with regards to dialogue re geocaching in parks. We have alot of geocaching going on in our regional parks here in Victoria and there is damage being done to the natural areas due to location of caches and inappropriate behavior (ie, bushwacking, etc.) in these parks. If there is any background information that I could get on the history of the dialogue re geocaching in Ontario parks, I would be really appreciative, as we want to be sure that geocaching continues without causing harm to the parks we love to explore. dthiessen@crd.bc.ca Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted February 19, 2003 Author Share Posted February 19, 2003 I have read Donna's log and I also have had email from the government employees that went on the hike. They all had a good time and said it was a positive experience for them. They now have a better understanding of geocaching. The next step is for them to discuss geocaching and come up with there guide lines. Thanks for the job well done Donna. PS How can we get these jobs and get paid to Geocache? gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Quote Link to comment
BullZie Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 After trying to keep up with the previous thread discussing this which really only resulted in a considerable amount of 'noise' I am glad to see that something is being done and it seems like there is a willingness to compromise (or making it open to suggestions) on this rather than issuing a policy and making it final. It is great that they are taking the time to check out an actual cache to experience it for themselves. Hey if anything, maybe we have gained another cacher! Quote Link to comment
+Decodoppler Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Kudos to DonnaG for taking the parks folk for a geocaching experience. Now do we extend some suggestions for guidelines? DD "Either that wallpaper goes or I do!" Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 If anyone has suggestions for guidelines, feel free to post them here or e-mail me through my profile. I have been asked to be part of a group dicussing geocaching in Provincial Parks. We have not set a meeting date yet, but I will let you know when our first meeting will be. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
+Olar Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DonnaG:If anyone has suggestions for guidelines, feel free to post them here or e-mail me through my profile. I have been asked to be part of a group dicussing geocaching in Provincial Parks. We have not set a meeting date yet, but I will let you know when our first meeting will be. -Donna G I would like to table a suggestion for all to consider. If a cacher is planning a site in a Prov. Park, with permission of course, he/she should be obligated to make mandatory maintenance visits to the cache-site on a pre-determined schedule that could be based on number of visits logged with a minimum number per year or something like that. Most of us are doing that now however the focus here would be on the surrounding environment as well as the cache container and contents. If for any reason the cacher can no longer maintain the cache then they should be encouraged to either remove it or adopt it out to another. The downside of this would be those parks where an entry or parking fee is in effect (most of them??). Possibly the Park folks would extend a free entry/parking pass for the cache owner only for those maintenance visits. Food for thought! Cheers, Olar "You are only young once but you can stay immature forever" Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 I have been collecting some state guidelines from the Geocache web site from different US states. I was going to use them to write a propsal for the Ministry to consider. I have posted them on the web site we are using for concerned to keep track of our actions. Guide line samples from US states. If we all read them maybe we don't have to do a lot of research and get the job done sooner. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Quote Link to comment
+fizbot Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I think that the group that is most "with-it" is Maryland. Their guidelines are straight forward, reasonable and in line with geocaching standards. Simply put, it might be better to state to the parks people that "Geocachers will abide by park hours and all other rules and regulations" and that as caches should all be labeled, any found in contrevention of park rules can be removed by park officals and reported to geocaching.com for removal. Another option is to take the essence of park rules and regulations and ensure that they are part of the standards to creating and hiding a cache. Only one that I see that isn't already stated is that a "transparent container" is required so as not to alarm accedental finders. If we are not carefull, we could administrate this entire fun activity out of existance! The whole notion of user fees and government approvals will cause this to become a nightmare. quote: MARYLAND DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES STATE FOREST AND PARK SERVICE WESTERN REGION CACHE GUIDELINES Park Hours are 9:00 A.M. - Sunset 1. You must receive approval from the State Forest and Park Service (SFPS) prior to placing a cache. To obtain the approval you must submit the Error! Bookmark not defined. to the appropriate park office. In most cases, you will be advised of a decision within three (3) business days or less. 2. In cases where a cache is not approved, the SFPS will recommend a more appropriate location for placement 3. A transparent container is required. DO NOT use PVC pipe, Ammo Cans or any other Military looking containers that may cause alarm should an unsuspecting person happen upon the cache. (Tupperware, Gladware, Pretzel Barrel, etc) 4. DO NOT dig any holes or disturb the surrounding environment. DO NOT attach caches to live trees or structures of any kind. 5. DO NOT place your cache in plain view. Attempt to conceal the cache to minimize the chances that a non-participant will spot it, which could cause worry, theft or vandalism. Try to hide the cache off the beaten path by at least a few yards to provide the finder some measure of privacy to sign the log without arousing undue alarm. 6. Clearly mark the container with the appropriate identification, such as "Geocaching.com" and the name of the cache. Place a stash note inside explaining the sport to any non-participant who may discover the cache. 7. Think Safety when hiding and/or seeking a cache. Use common sense! 8. As a cache seeker, or cache owner, you must abide by park hours and all other rules and regulations. Carry documentation such as the cache detail sheet, so that you can explain your activity to anyone who may ask. Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Thanks Fizbot for your input, I have those guide lines included on the web site mentioned above for all to read. As it now stands we are waiting for MNR to have there meetings and come up with guide lines and then we hope to see them and be able to comment before they become policy. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
+DirtRunner Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I agree with most of the guidelines posted with the exception of the see through container. This requirement has also been lifted by most of the parks you cited from earlier. An ammo can is the preferable choice due to its durability and innate ability to take a pounding and stand up to the elements. As long as the container is clearly marked with a Geocaching notice like those sold at the geocaching web site, the need for see though containers could be removed. Lets not proliferate our parks with cheap breakable plastic containers that are not animal proof nor designed to last outside the controlled elements of the kitchen. Thanks, keep up the good work DirtRunner. Your not first...But you could be next. Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 I might have to sell my shares I have from Buck or Two if we drop plastic containers. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted March 22, 2003 Author Share Posted March 22, 2003 Hi all, Last I heard the ministry is working on the guide lines and will send them to me for input before they are released. As of today I have not received anything yet. Maybe Donna has more information or can check and see what is happening. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I have not heard from the Parks people in a while. The end of the fiscal year is winding down, so I fgure maybe something will happen after April 1. I downloaded all of the Ontario caches and Hub used his XML and GIS skills to create a shapefile of all of the caches,including a hyperlink directly to the cache pages. I sent this file to the Parks folks and included the queries I ran on how many caches were in Provincial parks and how many were within 500m of a Park boundary. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
+Team Oodi Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 quote:how many caches were in Provincial parks and how many were within 500m of a Park boundary. Is proximity to a park relevant? Adi Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Yes, proximity is relevant. Contrary to popular belief, digital map information is not perfect. Some information can be anywhere from 10 to 50m out from its actual position. For 1:10000 mapping 10- 20m is well within the specifications for the product. So I wanted to find all of the caches that were outside of the Park, but fairly close. I also wanted to be able to find any multi's that might have their starting coords outside of the park, but end up in the park. I figured 500m was a fairly reasonable number to apply for a buffer zone. There are 1 or 2 caches that I found in my query that may actually be in Provincial Parks and I mentioned them to the Park staff. Hopefully we will have a meeting within the next month to go over proposed guidelines. I don't think we will have to worry about geocaching being prohibited in Provincial Parks, but we should be ready to accept a few reasonable conditions that the Parks Ontario staff place on the activity. I will fill everyone in as I know more. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
+Team Oodi Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DonnaG:Yes, proximity is relevant. Contrary to popular belief, digital map information is not perfect. Ok, now it makes sense. I placed a cache close to a Provincial Park. The park boundary is defined by the edge of a provincial highway (72) in this case. I am certain the cache is not within the park but it might be within 500m. Considering the purpose of Ontario Provincial Parks, it certainly makes a lot of sense to have some guidelines for GeoCaching and not just 'let them loose' in the park. Adi Quote Link to comment
bluecapricorn Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Hi all! I would just like to know who died and made DonnaG the queen of geocaching ??? We do not need anymore regulations other than that which we already have which were established by the founders of geocaching.com . I think they are respectful to both the environment and everyone, and we do not need any more rules, they are fine as they are. Geocaching is fine as it already is, I cannot imagine any government getting involved in a game. The impact of our caches sites are minimal to the environment as you can see if you compare the amount of sites in California to that of the amount here in Ontario (there are more sites in California than in all of Canada, and California is still very beautiful!) Please leave the government out of this very enjoyable activity, unless you enjoy paying government fees to find or place your caches! Thank you! BlueCapricorn Quote Link to comment
ghostbird Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Hi Everybody! Ok, I'm steamed! , what right does DonnaG have to go and get the government involved in our caches????? Things were absolutely fine as they were, getting the government involved only means one thing, caching fee's ($$$$$$$$$!), more restrictions, and less enjoyment!! DonnG, you must be a government employee! The government has no business sticking it's nose in our personal enjoyment! If you have a gripe with the rules and regulations of this site, then take it to the administrators of geocaching.com, and NOT the government. I strongly suspect you will face a lot of opposition against your ill thought of plan, please reconsider your idea, or at the very least ask for our input, it is after all going to affect ALL of us, thank you! Ghostbird Quote Link to comment
+DirtRunner Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 DonnaG is just trying to represent our interests in the Government committee. She works for the government also so it’s a good thing she’s there. To my knowledge she did not bring this up, it was GM100Guy who started the ball rolling to make sure that we COULD go into Provincial parks legally to hunt and place caches. Because DonnaG was already a cacher, she made sure that she was placed on the committee. Sounds like our interests are being pretty fairly represented by her at this moment. Just don’t panic and start jumping to conclusions before we even have a first draft of the policy in our grass stained little hands. If I remember correctly, we all will get to review the proposed draft before it gets stamped into policy so hang tight and wait. To me, I think it would be worth a small fee to place a cache in a park if it means that the Rangers won’t nail it when they find it and if it gets accidentally found and turned into a park office the park managers will at least know what to do with it. But, this is just my speculation about what the policy will entail, I wont make any judgments until I can see it first. Hey at least they are looking at it, they could have just said no caches period. DirtRunner. Your not first...But you could be next. Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 I see you have been here a long time with your 1 post to this forum. geocache ontario I suggest you go to the above web site a read the history of the above postings before you use that tone around here. There are alot of us around that have been working on the above situation for a few months now to keep are parks open for caching. After you read the history then if you have a positve comment to contribute and a apology to Donnag then we will listen to your input. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I do work for the government, and I am a geocacher. That is why I was asked by a Parks Ontario staff member to explain geocaching to them, and to help come up with some guidelines for geocaching in Ontario Parks - not for every cache in Ontario. Parks Ontario is concerned with the possibility of caches being placed in vulnerable habitats, or historically & archaeologically important areas within Parks. The Park staff has the right to know where caches are being placed within the Park's boundaries. Some potential guidelines are for a cacher to ask permission to place a cache, and get Park staff approval to the hiding spot (to ensure it is not in a sensitive area). Also to check the cache on a regular basis - either so many hides or so many months. Nobody has said anything about fees, except I guess the regular fee for entering the Park, if there is one. Sorry you've got you knickers in a knot, but nothing has been officially discussed yet. If you'd rather have some "Suit" in Toronto, who doesn't even know what GPS stands for, decide that it would just be easier to ban geocaching in Ontario Parks, rather than take the time to discuss it and come up with a few common sense guidelines, let me know and I'll just shut up go back to doing my job. It's not like I don't have enough to do already. Don't worry people - I have a very thick skin. - Donna G Quote Link to comment
+StAlbert4 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 In the US, You are in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the U.S. National Park Service. The reason cited is the National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks. What is happening in Ontario is trying to find the middle ground that works rather than prohibition. Thank you DonnaG and GM100GUY for taking the time to persue this. In the rest of the country we hope that a success will be transferable to other provincial park systems. Peter of the StAlbert4 "An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." (Niels Bohr) Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted April 6, 2003 Author Share Posted April 6, 2003 Upadte: I was exchanging emails with the parks staff this week and they hope to have the guidlines ready in draft form by the end of the month. They were also asking if any cachers are goig out on Apr 26 to do the clean up of parks, they want to know if any provincial parks are being cleaned? My reply was with all the snow this year I think we would have to wait until May before we could even see any garbage in the parks. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
EastofAdelaide Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 There ought to be some concern with putting caches in the dune areas of parks like the Pinery. Dunes are very sensitive to erosion. People shouldn't be encouraged to blunder through them looking for caches. Individual parks may have to have strict policies on where the caches can be located. They should also not include food items. Other than that, I hope we are successful in getting permission for the REAL THING in provincial parks. Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted May 14, 2003 Author Share Posted May 14, 2003 I was wonder if Donnag has any information for us. The weather is nicer and it is a holiday weekend and some might be thinking of placing caches in parks soon? gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 I have e-mailed our Parks Ontario contact this week, but have not heard from him. I will let you know when I have a reply. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
+TheGertridgeExplorers Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 I got a reply to my e-mail today. It seems like the internal response to the proposed guidelines has been slow, but they are now getting more comments on the proposal. Dan Mulrooney recently presented a paper on Geocaching in Parks at the Parks Research Forum of Ontario. The paper was well received and generated plenty of discussion. It seems like many of the Parks people had never heard of geocaching and were more surprised to hear of its popularity. Education may be the key here. Parks staff need to see that geocaching is beneficial to the areas they are responsible for. Maybe a CITO event would be a good idea to show them why they want geocachers in the parks. -Donna G Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted June 6, 2003 Author Share Posted June 6, 2003 I have been busy and catching up on emails etc. Donna thanks for the copy of the presentation. From reading it I say we have the parks staff on side and we will have to wait and see the final result but I would think that we are going to have guidelines and not a ban on geocaching in the parks my thought only. Donna has suggested we do some goodwill work and do a cito event at a park. We would need a central located park and have some media coverage. Any suggestions for a park? Lets keep up the good work and get a positive result for our efforts. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
+chris-mouse Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I took a look at my map here, and the the parks that look best to me are Bronte Creek near Burlington, Forks of the Credit north of Brampton, and Earl Rowe near Alliston. As far as I can tell, Bronte Creek doesn't have any caches in it at the moment, although it would be a good place to put one. Forks of the Credit already has two caches in it, and a third that's either inside, or just outside the park boundary. Earle Rowe park also does not appear to have any caches in it. Quote Link to comment
TechiMan Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Hey Guys I am a Scout Leader with 14th Ajax and Myself as well as my Troop has taken an intrest in GeoCaching and the Boy intantly said "Hey Lets Put one in Algonquin on our Canoe Trip this Summer" and I said sure but we have to Check the Rules....... well after 2 hours of Reading in various Forums this seems to be the best place to start asking.... I take it from the latest Post that there is still no guidlines set and that is Probably why I can't find a thing about it on the Goverment sites, so please correct me if I am Wrong but right now we can create a Virtual Cache? But can't leave a Log or a Container. or if we can now who do I contact about it? YIS TechiMan (14th Ajax Scouts) Quote Link to comment
+chris-mouse Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 The first thing that comes to mind regarding placing a cache in Algonquin is probably maintenance. How often would you be able to get to the park to check on your cache? There's at least one cache already in the park that appears to have been dropped off on a whim during a vacation trip. The cache hasn't been found, or checked on since it was placed, almost two years ago. If you really do want to place a cache there, the person to contact would probably be the park superintendant. Contact information can be found at: http://www.algonquinpark.on.ca/geninfo/contact.html Just be aware that any park manager will tend to want to say 'no' to any request for something new, especially if that something involves leaving things in the park. Be prepared to explain why permitting a geocache would be good for the park, and not form a safety, environmental or visual problem for the park, the wildlife in the park, and the park visitors. If the superintendant is aware of the fact that a geocaching policy is being worked on right now, you may also be told to wait until the policy is complete, then ask again. You might also want to do a search to make sure there aren't any caches close to where you're thinking of placing a cache. I did a search around N45°43' W78°33' (somewhere deep in the park) and found at least a dozen caches that appear to be inside the park boundaries. The scouts might also find placing a cache in the city to be more interesting since it would be visited more often. I have a watch on a couple of those algonquin caches, and they seem to get a visit once every couple of months or so. The caches I've placed in interesting parks here in the city seem to get a visit every couple of weeks by comparison. It's also usually a lot easier to get permission from the manager of a city park. They're a lot less concerned with overuse and wildlife impact :-) <o_o> Quote Link to comment
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