+Sir Lazaruz Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) When placing a geocache, getting good coordinates is vital. Why settle for just one coordinate measurement when you can do as many as you want and get an average of those, this will give you a much more accurate point. Features of GeoPoint Get an average GPS point, based on multiple readings. Save the points for later use Load an old point and continue to measure View the point in Maps Copy the coordinates to clipboard Are there any additional features that you would like to see, let me know here or tinydevsoft@gmail.com Download the app here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tinydevsoft.geopoint 1.0 Initial release 1.0.3 Performance improvements 1.0.4 Added option to list and remove individual points within a measurement Edited December 5, 2019 by Sir Lazaruz 1 Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I'm not able to locate this app in the Play Store. Why not? Could you provide a link to it in the store? I use Locus Pro for geocaching, hiking and biking. You might consider talking to the Locus developers to get your app recognized as a Locus add-on app. 1 Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 9:00 AM, Sir Lazaruz said: When placing a geocache, getting good coordinates is vital. Why settle for just one coordinate measurement when you can do as many as you want and get an average of those, this will give you a much more accurate point. Features of GeoPoint Get an average GPS point, based on multiple readings. Save the points for later use Load an old point and continue to measure View the point in Maps Copy the coordinates to clipboard Are there any additional features that you would like to see, let me know here or tinydevsoft@gmail.com Does it default to Geocaching.com formatted coordinates (Garmin default coordinate format)? All the ones I tried either didn't have that format or you had to change the format in the settings. I like the suggestion to have it as a Locus plug-in. Also, a schedule would be good. When "averaging", the plan is to "use data from various times of day, various seasons and weather conditions", but the Apps tend to have no such detail. And I know that one reason there isn't a plan, is that people would immediately realize that this is way overkill for Geocaching, and therefore they won't complete the task, and then the "averaging App" isn't doing much good without the entire process being performed. That is, it's about the same as waiting a few extra moments for the GPS to settle out, and using that one point, with no "averaging App". Not a complaint, I'm just saying that if I'm using an "averaging App", I might as well get the whole shebang, including a schedule with reminders. 1 Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) On 11/28/2019 at 4:00 PM, Sir Lazaruz said: Are there any additional features that you would like to see, let me know here or tinydevsoft@gmail.com Getting the best coordinates is not only averaging by standing on the GZ. For example, in difficult places, mosty in the woods, I average at least four offset positions. For example, 10 meters from the GZ to every cardinal point. When I look the map of these measurements I can easily note how trustworthy these measurements are. They should look like a square when measurements are succeeded. I suggest you to display a map of all measurements around the GZ. It happens many times that the visual map of measurements is much more accurate to pick the right position than the averaging method only. Edited November 29, 2019 by arisoft Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 minute ago, arisoft said: Getting the best coordinates is not only averaging by standing on the GZ. For example, in difficult places, mosty in the woods, I average at least four offset positions. For example, 10 meters from the GZ to every cardinal point. When I look the map of these measurements I can easily note how trustworthy these measurements are. They should look like a square when measurements are succeeded. I suggest you to display a map of all measurements arounf the GZ. It happens many times that the visual map is much more accurate to pick the right position than the averaging method only. I've never tried the square, sounds pretty cool! I would also like an option to see those raw data points. Display the points that are part of the calculation (were some points discarded? I might not want that one strange far point included in the "average" at all). Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, kunarion said: I've never tried the square, sounds pretty cool! You can also make a circle by walking aroud the GZ many times and saving lots of coordinates. The GZ should be in the middle of the round-looking shape. No calculations needed! Edited November 29, 2019 by arisoft Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 23 minutes ago, arisoft said: For example, in difficult places, mosty in the woods, I average at least four offset positions. I saw discussions of this type years ago on this site and found this practice to be most useful. Even when using my Garmin's built in averaging function, I found the practice of walking away 50'-100' and navigating back from several different directions would reveal some inaccuracies. I've been using my phone almost exclusively the last couple years and still use this method with good success. It would be great to have an app add a little automation to this process. Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 14 minutes ago, JohnCNA said: navigating back from several different directions would reveal some inaccuracies This is the most important. You must move enough to get accurate coordinates. Sometimes coordinates may be terribly wrong, especially, when you have just started the device. When you move in such a situation, you may notice that coordinates start approaching the right position bit by bit. 1 Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 15 hours ago, JohnCNA said: I'm not able to locate this app in the Play Store. Why not? Could you provide a link to it in the store? I use Locus Pro for geocaching, hiking and biking. You might consider talking to the Locus developers to get your app recognized as a Locus add-on app. Sorry, I missed the link, here it is https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tinydevsoft.geopoint Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 15 hours ago, arisoft said: Getting the best coordinates is not only averaging by standing on the GZ. For example, in difficult places, mosty in the woods, I average at least four offset positions. For example, 10 meters from the GZ to every cardinal point. When I look the map of these measurements I can easily note how trustworthy these measurements are. They should look like a square when measurements are succeeded. I suggest you to display a map of all measurements around the GZ. It happens many times that the visual map of measurements is much more accurate to pick the right position than the averaging method only. 15 hours ago, kunarion said: I've never tried the square, sounds pretty cool! I would also like an option to see those raw data points. Display the points that are part of the calculation (were some points discarded? I might not want that one strange far point included in the "average" at all). Both very good suggestions, I will look into this Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 15 hours ago, kunarion said: Does it default to Geocaching.com formatted coordinates (Garmin default coordinate format)? All the ones I tried either didn't have that format or you had to change the format in the settings. I like the suggestion to have it as a Locus plug-in. I use coordinates in the form of for example N 55° 42.907 E 013° 31.707, so yes, I use the same as Geocaching.com Quote Link to comment
+Viajero Perdido Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 23 hours ago, JohnCNA said: You might consider talking to the Locus developers to get your app recognized as a Locus add-on app. After the (unrelated) "GPS Averaging" app was sold and turned into malware, the Locus developer brought that function into the app. I think it's still possible to link to an external app though. (I keep and use a pre-malware version of that applet.) 1 Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 26 minutes ago, Viajero Perdido said: After the (unrelated) "GPS Averaging" app was sold and turned into malware, the Locus developer brought that function into the app. Where? I don't see that anywhere in my Locus Pro. V3.41.0 Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JohnCNA said: Where? I don't see that anywhere in my Locus Pro. V3.41.0 There's a thread about it here: https://help.locusmap.eu/topic/position-averaging-when-taking-a-waypoint I see more references to it, about "3 months ago", along with it being removed from the App. Or available in certain versions. Maybe. I can't tell. Edited November 30, 2019 by kunarion Quote Link to comment
+Viajero Perdido Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) [checks] If you have a GPS-averaging app set up, it shows that, at the bottom of the Select Location screen. If you don't, it instead shows "Stabilized GPS", which fires up the new internal function. 3.41.0 PS, the malware app seems to have disappeared from the Play Store, good. There's another with the same name, but it looks unrelated. PPS, what I like about the old averager is that it passes the coords back to Locus. No need to copy-and-paste, or mess with writing them down. Edited November 30, 2019 by Viajero Perdido Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Viajero Perdido said: If you have a GPS-averaging app set up, it shows that, at the bottom of the Select Location screen. If you don't, it instead shows "Stabilized GPS", which fires up the new internal function. 3.41.0 I do not have anything like this in my version 3.41.0. Do you have a beta version or something? Quote PPS, what I like about the old averager is that it passes the coords back to Locus. No need to copy-and-paste, or mess with writing them down. Yes, I liked that too. This one copies to the clipboard and then you can select 'clipboard' in Locus. I also noticed if you select the 'Open in Maps' option, it shows Locus as one of the mapping options. Opens Locus and places a temporary waypoint on the Locus map screen. I also noticed a couple other interesting options. If I average for say 20 readings and hit Stop, I can then restart a little later and it will continue with reading #21, etc. Also, if I save the waypoint within the app, I can open it later and it will show how many readings I took. I can continue adding more readings and it will continue from where I left off. I wonder how that might work if I were to record and then stop, then move to another cardinal point 50' away and continue. Edited November 30, 2019 by JohnCNA Quote Link to comment
+Viajero Perdido Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Hm, odd. My 3.41.0 is the Pro version where I have the old averager installed, and that's what it showed. Another device, same Pro version but no averager, shows built-in function. Beta 3.41.0.5 on latter device, same. Dunno, sorry. Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 On 11/30/2019 at 4:09 PM, Viajero Perdido said: Hm, odd. My 3.41.0 is the Pro version where I have the old averager installed, and that's what it showed. Another device, same Pro version but no averager, shows built-in function. Beta 3.41.0.5 on latter device, same. Dunno, sorry. Quite puzzling. When I had the now-malware averaging app installed, it showed up in the panel above as you describe. I deleted it once it started its nasty ad tricks and this one does not show up there. I believe an app has to register with Locus in order to show up there. As for the built-in function, I believe it was in one of the beta versions and later removed. Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 On 11/29/2019 at 7:41 PM, kunarion said: I would also like an option to see those raw data points. Display the points that are part of the calculation (were some points discarded? I might not want that one strange far point included in the "average" at all). Now there is an updated version that shows the points and a possibility to remove jumpy readings. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tinydevsoft.geopoint 1 Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sir Lazaruz said: Now there is an updated version that shows the points and a possibility to remove jumpy readings. The screenshot is displaying only raw data. I would like to see a two dimensional chart. 1 Quote Link to comment
+kunarion Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 30 minutes ago, Sir Lazaruz said: Now there is an updated version that shows the points and a possibility to remove jumpy readings. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tinydevsoft.geopoint It’s looking pretty good! I like arisoft’s chart idea, too. Multiple ways to analyze the data would be good. Of course, I’d expect it to work automatically, for people who don’t want to dig into the details. Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 20 hours ago, arisoft said: The screenshot is displaying only raw data. I would like to see a two dimensional chart. Maybe a map with the points mapped out? Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 30 minutes ago, Sir Lazaruz said: Maybe a map with the points mapped out? Map would be useless at this resolution. We are talking about thousands of minutes. Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 19 minutes ago, arisoft said: Map would be useless at this resolution. We are talking about thousands of minutes. What do you mean with thousands of minutes? I'm not sure what you are after but this is meant to be a small tool to get good coordinates when placing a geocache, not some hyper accurate precision tool. After all it's used on a phone/tablet so we are limited to the capabilities of that device anyway. Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 It is the last digit. Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted December 6, 2019 Author Share Posted December 6, 2019 52 minutes ago, arisoft said: It is the last digit. But why would you end up with thousands of minutes? For placing a geocache you should be fine with 10-15 measurements. Quote Link to comment
+barefootjeff Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, arisoft said: It is the last digit. Do you mean thousandths of minutes rather than thousands? Quote Link to comment
+The A-Team Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Sir Lazaruz said: For placing a geocache you should be fine with 10-15 measurements. That seems like far too few. If you're out in the open with no obstructions, then that might be enough. As soon as you have an obstructed view of the sky, though, 10-15 would rarely be enough (assuming we're talking about a measurement every second or two). If you're using the averaging method to get coordinates, you want a large enough sample size that any outliers don't unduly affect the average. At the 15-30 second range, the device would usually be wandering too much for the average to be very meaningful. I'd say at least a couple of minutes with measurements taken every second or two should be considered the bare minimum. Even then, a plot or map showing all of the measurements would be handy to be able to see if there are a bunch of outliers that should be discarded or whether the user should start over due to too much wandering. If you want to provide the simplest experience to the user, then you may want to do some of this in the background automatically, but a plot/map wouldn't be a bad idea regardless. 1 Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 8 hours ago, barefootjeff said: Do you mean thousandths of minutes rather than thousands? Right No need for a map at this level of accuracy. Either it is too blurry or misaligned. Once I forgot my GPS tracker on the new cache when trying to find coordinates. It created 24 hours plot making all kind of curves around the GZ. Some of them were way too long from the GZ to take into account. Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I noticed a problem with 1.0.3. It turns Location off after taking every reading and then turns Location on again for the next reading. This reduces the accuracy. I just ran it and it reported 18m accuracy. Then I opened Locus which keeps Location on and ran Geopoint again. Now the Location indicator in the status bar stayed on continuously instead of blinking off and on and I got accuracy of 4m. Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, JohnCNA said: I noticed a problem with 1.0.3. It turns Location off after taking every reading and then turns Location on again for the next reading. This reduces the accuracy. I just ran it and it reported 18m accuracy. Then I opened Locus which keeps Location on and ran Geopoint again. Now the Location indicator in the status bar stayed on continuously instead of blinking off and on and I got accuracy of 4m. It depends Resetting the device for each sample may reduce the accuracy of every sample - but - it may increase the accuracy of the avarage. Quote Link to comment
+CAVinoGal Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 1:23 PM, arisoft said: Resetting the device for each sample may reduce the accuracy of every sample - but - it may increase the accuracy of the avarage. This totally baffles me - you are taking an average of sample readings. You are saying an average of inaccurate (less accurate) coordinates will be more accurate than an average of more accurate coordinates? Is there some rule of logic I'm missing?? Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I'm just basing my comment on letting it run for 20 cycles and watching the Location icon switch on and off each time and the app was reporting 18m accuracy for almost every reading. Then 2 minutes later and in the exact same location and position I started Locus and let it run in the background so that the Location service was constantly on. This time GeoPoint reported 4m accuracy for most of the readings. Just seems to me that it should turn Location on for the duration and only turn it off when you exit the app. This migh be something unique to my phone or security settings. I'd love to hear feedback from the developer on this. Quote Link to comment
+arisoft Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 14 hours ago, CAVinoGal said: This totally baffles me - you are taking an average of sample readings. You are saying an average of inaccurate (less accurate) coordinates will be more accurate than an average of more accurate coordinates? Is there some rule of logic I'm missing?? It is plausible. As I already said, it depends. For example, GPS may be constructed to lock into one position until it detects movement or it is restarted. Years ago this was a major problem in geocaching with smartphones. Quote Link to comment
+Sir Lazaruz Posted December 26, 2019 Author Share Posted December 26, 2019 On 12/16/2019 at 10:19 PM, JohnCNA said: I noticed a problem with 1.0.3. It turns Location off after taking every reading and then turns Location on again for the next reading. This reduces the accuracy. I just ran it and it reported 18m accuracy. Then I opened Locus which keeps Location on and ran Geopoint again. Now the Location indicator in the status bar stayed on continuously instead of blinking off and on and I got accuracy of 4m. Thanks for the heads up, the accuracy is better with GPS always on, a new version, 1.0.5 is being released now. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 11/29/2019 at 1:37 PM, arisoft said: Getting the best coordinates is not only averaging by standing on the GZ. For example, in difficult places, mosty in the woods, I average at least four offset positions. For example, 10 meters from the GZ to every cardinal point. When I look the map of these measurements I can easily note how trustworthy these measurements are. They should look like a square when measurements are succeeded. I suggest you to display a map of all measurements around the GZ. It happens many times that the visual map of measurements is much more accurate to pick the right position than the averaging method only. I also helps to capture coordinates at different times when the satellite configuration changes. It would be nice if an app which did averaging could save that data and then continue averaging from data taken on a subsequent day. 1 Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 8:53 AM, NYPaddleCacher said: I also helps to capture coordinates at different times when the satellite configuration changes. It would be nice if an app which did averaging could save that data and then continue averaging from data taken on a subsequent day. Actually, this app can do exactly that. You can let it run for a bunch of averages and save the list of readings. Then open the list on another day, and continue adding readings to it. The other thing that is interesting is to view the list and when you see a spurious reading, delete that reading so it doesn't adversely affect the average. Quote Link to comment
+colleda Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 8 hours ago, JohnCNA said: Actually, this app can do exactly that. You can let it run for a bunch of averages and save the list of readings. Then open the list on another day, and continue adding readings to it. The other thing that is interesting is to view the list and when you see a spurious reading, delete that reading so it doesn't adversely affect the average. My Garmin Etrex can do that, easy. Don't need any app.. Quote Link to comment
+Hynz Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, colleda said: 10 hours ago, JohnCNA said: Actually, this app can do exactly that. You can let it run for a bunch of averages and save the list of readings. Then open the list on another day, and continue adding readings to it. The other thing that is interesting is to view the list and when you see a spurious reading, delete that reading so it doesn't adversely affect the average. My Garmin Etrex can do that, easy. Don't need any app.. I don't think so. Care to explain how any Garmin could achieve this? Quote Link to comment
+IceColdUK Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Hynz said: I don't think so. Care to explain how any Garmin could achieve this? On the Garmin Oregon 600, if you pick up a previously averaged waypoint from the Waypoint Manager, select the Average Location menu option (bottom right), you have the option to take further samples. Once you're done, it shows the total number of samples taken, and the distance the averaged location has been adjusted by the latest sample. No option to remove outliers, as far as I know, but still useful functionality. 1 Quote Link to comment
+JohnCNA Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Hynz said: I don't think so. Care to explain how any Garmin could achieve this? All 3 of my Garmins would allow opening a previously saved waypoint and editing or averaging it again. This could be done days later if desired. You could not, however, alter the full list of captured readings and delete the occasional reading that suddenly jumped to a farther distance and was affecting the average. 3 hours ago, colleda said: My Garmin Etrex can do that, easy. Don't need any app.. I think the discussion was more aimed at what tools are available for those who primarily or exclusively use their phones for geocaching. Not a phone vs gps thread. 1 1 Quote Link to comment
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