(Yet Another Thread) 1.5 / 1.5 d/t restriction on app

[+EliteJonathan81]

This has already been discussed to no end, and Groundspeak probably are never going to change this, so why am I wasting my time with this thread? Well I touched on this in my caching rating system idea thread and would like to expand on what I've previously said to give my perspective on the matter (after reading Groundspeak's perspective as a comment reply in their video about this).

 

Why is this in this section rather than the app ideas subforums? The reason is it's not just an idea or bug report. This is an argument as to how this app impacts the game as a whole, not just the app itself. And also this applies to both the iphone and android apps, so if this were to be moved to one of these subforums, which one?

 

Now the retirement of the classic app, people have already vented their frustration about (this one doesn't affect me because I never bought it) but I do think people who have should be given something (eg 2 months premium membership for a similar price), but that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game (for me personally as a premium member it doesn't affect me, but I'd rather see this game continue to thrive and attract new players). But first I'll discuss what I've heard for Groundspeak's perspective (this is only the impression I have received, anything I'm wrong about please correct), then a common opinion in the community, and then finally my own.

 

My impression of Groundspeak's perspective (again this is just my impression) is that they've invested time, money and resources into the app (and continue to do so to keep it running), and thus they need support from their premium members to keep it alive. And the 1.5/1.5 restriction is to give new people a "taste" of geocaching before upgrading to premium membership for the full thing.

 

And this seems logical, but where I dispute is that the 1.5/1.5 restriction is enough to enthuse new members into the hobby for the long run, as opposed to have them find 10 caches, get bored and leave. A lot of people say the smartphone app makes geocaching into just that, an app. People download, they use the app for a while, they get bored within a few weeks and leave. And many of the negative things people complain about like "swag" items decreasing in value until only trash is left, is blamed by quite a few people on the smartphone app. Now whether this viewpoint is true or not, I don't know the facts, so I won't comment. Only, if this is true, then if people were engaged enough to learn the inns and outs of the hobby (beyond the "app" side of things) then maybe this would happen less. And I believe this restriction is harmful for that.

 

One way (not the only way) to engage people is the sense of a challenge when it comes to geocaching. While there are many underrated caches as 1.5 that are actually a lot more difficult to find, restricting to 1.5 reduces the sense of challenge a new cacher may experience. Personally the difficult caches can be the more interesting ones (I like the ones that are hidden in plain sight that very cleverly blend in with surroundings), though there are still many interesting easy caches out there. And also having the majority of caches restricted as "advanced cache" isn't very inspiring for someone to get enthused in the game.

 

Now a popular community opinion is as follows: before the smartphone app, people had to invest in a proper GPS to do geocaching. Now the smartphone allows people to simply just download an app. And personally that's no bad thing, it allows people to do geocaching without having to make an investment. But if you're still convinced that people should make an investment of some sort before, as mentioned in my idea thread, you're phone has an in built GPS that you can use free of charge, no investment required. And there are many free apps that allow you to simply type in co-ordinates for you to navigate to (using geocaching.com for the cache details). Then there are the free 3rd party apps that connect to geocaching.com (who's names shall not be listed). So no, without the geocaching app, I don't need to make any investment at all to do geocaching with my smartphone.

 

What the app is instead, is a convenience tool. I use it to not bother having to type in co-ordinates (aside from puzzle / mutli's), to see descriptions and logs on the fly, and to log my finds / DNF's on the fly. 7 years ago when I was using a proper GPS I'd need to type in a list of co-ordinates into my GPS, and as far as the descriptions / hint / logs, I'd have to either print them out, write them down or remember them. Then when I got back home I'd have to do a "logging" session of all my caches I'd found that day. Whereas now it's a few button taps on my phone. And I personally thing this convenience is a good thing as opposed to a bad thing.

 

Now I'm ok with having to pay for convenience (I mean Groundspeak do need to make money). But that's not really how it's sold to newer members. For newer members downloading the geocaching app, it isn't just a convenience tool for them, the app is geocaching and geocaching is the app. And personally, I think they need to have the app engage them in the hobby, and then they take it a step further beyond the app, not the other way round. And a rather obvious paywall doesn't help. As I said, I'm ok with paying for convenience, what I'm not ok with is paying to see more caches excluding those their owners list as premium member only. I wouldn't have a problem if some of these convenience tools for the app were premium member only (guiding new users around them, as opposed to simply coming up with a pay dialog). And I also wouldn't have a problem if any new features for the app were premium member only. It's just this specific restriction is in my opinion turning new people away from the game, which could become the next generation of geocachers.

 

In addition, this restriction also means some CO's will cater to this, providing easy caches within this restriction for them to get more attention, which I don't think is helpful for the game either.

Edited July 4, 2017 by EliteJonathan81

[+Michaelcycle]

Just so I understand your geocaching experience (or lack thereof) so I can place your post (and the other one I responded to) in perspective: the joined date of your account is listed as 20Jun17. Is this a sock?

 

ETA: I see now that you say (in that other thread) that you were a geocacher 7 years ago (to what extent is unknown since this is obviously not your old account.)

Edited July 4, 2017 by Michaelcycle

[+noncentric]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game (for me personally as a premium member it doesn't affect me, but I'd rather not see this game continue to thrive and attract new players). But first I'll discuss what I've heard for Groundspeak's perspective (this is only the impression I have received, anything I'm wrong about please correct), then a common opinion in the community, and then finally my own.

The bolded part is a typo, right?

 

ETA: I see now that you say (in that other thread) that you were a geocacher 7 years ago (to what extent is unknown since this is obviously not your old account.)

See the OP's About tab.

[+EliteJonathan81]

Just so I understand your geocaching experience (or lack thereof) so I can place your post (and the other one I responded to) in perspective: the joined date of your account is listed as 20Jun17. Is this a sock?

 

ETA: I see now that you say (in that other thread) that you were a geocacher 7 years ago (to what extent is unknown since this is obviously not your old account.)

 

My old account is JonathanJimbo fyi. I didn't have a forum account then. I'm not and don't claim to be the most experienced geocacher (you know only 150 finds, nothing huge) but then again, I see many game developers use a similar marketing trend (ie either a hard paywall or a nipping at your heels freemium mode) and I can quickly pick up on it. On the other hand I've been reading quite a few forum threads, along with reading up on this topic in particular.

 

And there is a story as to how I ended up with 2 accounts. That's I couldn't log into my old account initially (and thought it was subsequently deleted after 7 years of inactivity, why I didn't use the "forgot my password" I don't know) and then bought premium membership for this new one. And only after I'd done that was I able to log back into my old one.

 

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game (for me personally as a premium member it doesn't affect me, but I'd rather not see this game continue to thrive and attract new players). But first I'll discuss what I've heard for Groundspeak's perspective (this is only the impression I have received, anything I'm wrong about please correct), then a common opinion in the community, and then finally my own.

The bolded part is a typo, right?

 

Embarrassing typo corrected. The 'not' originally came from me talking from the perspective of "I don't want this to die out", but I decided to rephrase that more positively but accidentally left in the "not".

 

 

I also don't mind being proven wrong and I apologise if I came across as a "know it all" in my original post. I just like to discuss my opinion and more specifically my reasoning behind my opinion, even if I'm not "qualified" as it were based on my experience.

 

Just saw Michael's response to the other thread about the "advanced cacher" status idea, and I think that's a very good idea. It's the paywall to caches (beyond PMO's) that I have a problem with, but requiring cachers to simply find x many caches (or to add on to that find possibly find x many d2 and above caches via the website / other gps app to unlock doing so in the app, thereby introducing newer players to geocaching.com) I wouldn't have a problem with, and would help alleviate some of the concerns mentioned in my original post.

Edited July 4, 2017 by EliteJonathan81

[+barefootjeff]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it's probably good to limit raw newbies to the easier traditionals, although perhaps 1.5/1.5 bar is a little low. Is a T2 really too tough for them? This certainly made sense when it was the "Intro App" but now it's moved a bit beyond just that. But as a CO, I'm glad my more challenging hides are protected from the "muggles with apps" now that anyone with a smart phone can jump in with no commitment or responsibility.

 

On the other hand, caching around here has practically died out over the past year or two. The last new hide, other than my own, published in the Gosford local government area (population 160,000 covering 1000 square kilometres) was in February, and while there's a steady stream of newbies starting off, finding a handful of caches before giving up, there are now less than a dozen who've gone beyond that and are still active. By and large the newbies aren't crossing that gap to become fully-fledged cachers, suggesting the gap is now too wide.

 

Some possible solutions? Maybe extending the app to a broader range of caches after a period of time has elapsed, or provide a non-autorenewing three month "trial" premium membership that can be purchased through the app store.

Edited July 4, 2017 by barefootjeff

[+EliteJonathan81]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it's probably good to limit raw newbies to the easier traditionals, although perhaps 1.5/1.5 bar is a little low. Is a T2 really too tough for them? This certainly made sense when it was the "Intro App" but now it's moved a bit beyond just that. But as a CO, I'm glad my more challenging hides are protected from the "muggles with apps" now that anyone with a smart phone can jump in with no commitment or responsibility.

 

On the other hand, caching around here has practically died out over the past year or two. The last new hide, other than my own, published in the Gosford local government area (population 160,000 covering 1000 square kilometres) was in February, and while there's a steady stream of newbies starting off, finding a handful of caches before giving up, there are now less than a dozen who've gone beyond that and are still active. By and large the newbies aren't crossing that gap to become fully-fledged cachers, suggesting the gap is now too wide.

 

Some possible solutions? Maybe extending the app to a broader range of caches after a period of time has elapsed, or provide a non-autorenewing three month "trial" premium membership that can be purchased through the app store.

 

The autorenewing thing here is a good point, some people may be more willing to make one time purchases than an auto-renewing subscription.

 

Aren't though you're more challenging hides already protected from the "muggles with apps" due to their challenging nature, or are you more talking about the general area around GZ.

 

I personally think it's the easy but larger caches (with swag) or quality made caches that are the most vulnerable, and surely it should be those that should be protected from the "muggles with apps" if any? But then again, if all the quality caches were protected, then all that would be left for newbies would be the low quality caches.

Edited July 4, 2017 by EliteJonathan81

[+noncentric]

On the other hand, caching around here has practically died out over the past year or two. The last new hide, other than my own, published in the Gosford local government area (population 160,000 covering 1000 square kilometres) was in February, and while there's a steady stream of newbies starting off, finding a handful of caches before giving up, there are now less than a dozen who've gone beyond that and are still active. By and large the newbies aren't crossing that gap to become fully-fledged cachers, suggesting the gap is now too wide.

It's too bad we can't find out from those 'drop outs' why they left the game. I don't doubt that the app could've had some influence, but not sure it was the D/T restriction or simply that they weren't interested in the hobby. The thing about the app is that it brings in people that might not otherwise try caching, so it may be that people don't continue because geocaching is simply not something they're interested in. For example, if pre-app days saw 100 new members and 20 lost interest after 3 months and post-app days see 300 new members and 200 lose interest after 3 months, then post-app days is still ahead. I'm making up completely arbitrary numbers here, but just trying to make the point that a lower retention rate doesn't necessarily mean a lower growth rate.

 

Some possible solutions? Maybe extending the app to a broader range of caches after a period of time has elapsed, or provide a non-autorenewing three month "trial" premium membership that can be purchased through the app store.

This is similar to an idea I had a while back, which was to offer gift memberships at lower price points.

[+cerberus1]

On the other hand, caching around here has practically died out over the past year or two. The last new hide, other than my own, published in the Gosford local government area (population 160,000 covering 1000 square kilometres) was in February, and while there's a steady stream of newbies starting off, finding a handful of caches before giving up, there are now less than a dozen who've gone beyond that and are still active. By and large the newbies aren't crossing that gap to become fully-fledged cachers, suggesting the gap is now too wide.

It's too bad we can't find out from those 'drop outs' why they left the game. I don't doubt that the app could've had some influence, but not sure it was the D/T restriction or simply that they weren't interested in the hobby. The thing about the app is that it brings in people that might not otherwise try caching, so it may be that people don't continue because geocaching is simply not something they're interested in. For example, if pre-app days saw 100 new members and 20 lost interest after 3 months and post-app days see 300 new members and 200 lose interest after 3 months, then post-app days is still ahead. I'm making up completely arbitrary numbers here, but just trying to make the point that a lower retention rate doesn't necessarily mean a lower growth rate.

Most ours (in this area) looked pretty simple.

Single word (often obscene) logs, trackables/containers missing was the first clue.

It seemed obvious (to us) that these "drop outs" (kids mostly) simply had the app for a short time, realized that there was heat, bugs, and poison ivy, and moved on to the next app game that didn't require going outside.

Just lost interest...

 

I don't believe the low D/T for basic members has anything to do with this "game" losing people.

How many threads are started about the huge number of 1.5 or less hides currently placed, with stats the main concern of many?

- Guess I don't see how folks are hampered by low D/T hides, when those same popular caches have been taking over many areas for some time.

The few who stay even place those low D/T hides themselves.

[+candlestick]

When I was at camp in some back country woods in Ohio in 2005, a bright young chap shared geocaching with me. He showed me the gps and explained how to find geocaches. We planned the next day to do a 6 mile run to the town nearby to find the closest cache. I think its fair to say that these were the types of people that were drawn in by geoaching (well not everyone would run 6 miles for a cache but im sure there were those who did! ) . People who wanted adventure and didn't mind the learning curve involved with using the gps. It was smaller and much less known and also mostly involved hiking or going on a trip. The types of people that are drawn in by the the geocaching app today are much much different. Most people I run into these days are just casually dabbling in the hobby, making it a game of numbers and not an adventure. I had a friend recently that went for a multi and ran into a group of kids looking for the first waypoint. They told my friend that since they had gotten to the coordinates that was good enough! phooey! They ran off and logged their find ....and you wonder if it's the ratings or available caches that are driving people away?

 

I am glad if more people can find geocaching and make it a hobby and welcome those who are willing to learn the ins and outs but of course, I have to disagree that changing the 1.5 ratings to make everything available may not be the best way to "fix" anything or keep people interested. I wish and hope that geocaching will keep its adventurous side and still hold to how many say "it used to be" instead of an explosion of pill bottle hides and "easy grabs" to give people a quick validation that finding more geocaches makes them oh so cool. Even if you open the map up for newer caches to experience the fun or challenging hides, would they really enjoy them? Or would they complain more because its too hard? What about a cacher that starts with something easy, learns the ropes, and then finds more difficult hides. I think that would give that individual much more appreciation for the more challenging geocaches once they get there but I could be wrong.

[+barefootjeff]

When I was at camp in some back country woods in Ohio in 2005, a bright young chap shared geocaching with me. He showed me the gps and explained how to find geocaches. We planned the next day to do a 6 mile run to the town nearby to find the closest cache. I think its fair to say that these were the types of people that were drawn in by geoaching (well not everyone would run 6 miles for a cache but im sure there were those who did! ) . People who wanted adventure and didn't mind the learning curve involved with using the gps. It was smaller and much less known and also mostly involved hiking or going on a trip. The types of people that are drawn in by the the geocaching app today are much much different. Most people I run into these days are just casually dabbling in the hobby, making it a game of numbers and not an adventure. I had a friend recently that went for a multi and ran into a group of kids looking for the first waypoint. They told my friend that since they had gotten to the coordinates that was good enough! phooey! They ran off and logged their find ....and you wonder if it's the ratings or available caches that are driving people away?

 

I am glad if more people can find geocaching and make it a hobby and welcome those who are willing to learn the ins and outs but of course, I have to disagree that changing the 1.5 ratings to make everything available may not be the best way to "fix" anything or keep people interested. I wish and hope that geocaching will keep its adventurous side and still hold to how many say "it used to be" instead of an explosion of pill bottle hides and "easy grabs" to give people a quick validation that finding more geocaches makes them oh so cool. Even if you open the map up for newer caches to experience the fun or challenging hides, would they really enjoy them? Or would they complain more because its too hard? What about a cacher that starts with something easy, learns the ropes, and then finds more difficult hides. I think that would give that individual much more appreciation for the more challenging geocaches once they get there but I could be wrong.

When I started in 2013 there were no apps so I began on the website, finding my first cache from the satellite image before forking out a few hundred dollars for a GPSr, which I thought might be useful for other activities if I didn't much like caching. Looking back on my early finds, I see that after three T1.5s, my fourth one was a T4 that I really got my teeth into. From then on D&T 1.5 or less were the exception rather than the rule, yet it was another two months before I felt committed enough to take out premium membership. I wonder if I'd have persevered if I'd been restricted to D/T 1.5 trads during those first two months.

 

The decline in newbies crossing the gap into becoming seasoned cachers is pretty staggering here if one looks at the number of new hides published each year: 2012-31, 2013-34, 2014-65, 2015-85, 2016-43 and 2017 so far - 6. The same goes for finds: the three new caches I've had published this year (a 1/2.5 trad, a 1.5/3 trad and a 2/3 multi) have had 7, 3 and 4 finds respectively, yet a few years back people would be lined up at GZ to sign the log on new hides.

 

I'm sure there are other factors at work here other than just the app restrictions, particularly as neighbouring local government areas seem to be faring rather better than my one, but I'd be surprised if this restriction wasn't playing a part.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it's probably good to limit raw newbies to the easier traditionals, although perhaps 1.5/1.5 bar is a little low. Is a T2 really too tough for them? This certainly made sense when it was the "Intro App" but now it's moved a bit beyond just that. But as a CO, I'm glad my more challenging hides are protected from the "muggles with apps" now that anyone with a smart phone can jump in with no commitment or responsibility.

 

I had never thought about this before but it's understandable that if GS is trying to provide a taste of geocaching by making a free app and a restriction on the Difficulty rating to 1.5 or less that would make it more likely that someone that hasn't played before would find every cache they try. I don't quite understand the restriction by terrain to 1.5 or less though. In fact, a restriction of caches which have a 2T or higher might provide a better taste of the adventure that awaits if they continue with the game.

[+EliteJonathan81]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it's probably good to limit raw newbies to the easier traditionals, although perhaps 1.5/1.5 bar is a little low. Is a T2 really too tough for them? This certainly made sense when it was the "Intro App" but now it's moved a bit beyond just that. But as a CO, I'm glad my more challenging hides are protected from the "muggles with apps" now that anyone with a smart phone can jump in with no commitment or responsibility.

 

I had never thought about this before but it's understandable that if GS is trying to provide a taste of geocaching by making a free app and a restriction on the Difficulty rating to 1.5 or less that would make it more likely that someone that hasn't played before would find every cache they try. I don't quite understand the restriction by terrain to 1.5 or less though. In fact, a restriction of caches which have a 2T or higher might provide a better taste of the adventure that awaits if they continue with the game.

 

That's also a good point that this could just be a difficulty but not terrain restriction or alternatively a terrain restriction the other way round so only the harder terrain caches can be found encouraging a sense of "adventure" like you say.

 

But this has got me thinking, what if the restriction for difficulty was the other way too. For example what if we only allowed new members to find caches with either a terrain or (inclusive or) a difficulty of 2.5+. People say it's better that they find every cache they try, but what if they find very little of the caches they attempt. I'm not suggesting it (this would be a very bold move for GS), I'm just thinking what effect this might have on newer players. At a guess, it would turn away some members out of frustration (that may have otherwise become long term have stayed. And it might cause more annoying messages towards CO's from newer players not being able to find the cache. On the other hand, the minority of players who are determined to find the cache will eventually find the cache, and those will be satisfied when they finally do and want to come back for more. And those are the sort of players who once they put in the time and effort are no longer "muggles with an app". As to whether the pros of this outweight the cons idk, but it's an interesting thought.

[+cerberus1]

When I started in 2013 there were no apps so I began on the website, finding my first cache from the satellite image before forking out a few hundred dollars for a GPSr, which I thought might be useful for other activities if I didn't much like caching.

Please explain.

 

The other 2/3rds had a blackberry and the Trimble app in '05, and the geocaching classic app was developed in 2008.

Thanks.

[RuideAlmeida]

When we talk about all the 1.5/1.5 caches, probably we are talking about 50% of all caches available.

Using the official app, a new player have access to more or less 1 500 000 caches.

Considering this a strong limitation, makes me smile.

 

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

 

Instead of talking about different limitations in the app, I would like to see alternatives to keep the homepage running, from any new user creating threads about the app.

 

It's easy to speak about free 3rd party apps... but would they be free if had to supporting the homepage by themselves???

Edited July 4, 2017 by RuideAlmeida

[+cerberus1]

I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it's probably good to limit raw newbies to the easier traditionals, although perhaps 1.5/1.5 bar is a little low. Is a T2 really too tough for them? This certainly made sense when it was the "Intro App" but now it's moved a bit beyond just that. But as a CO, I'm glad my more challenging hides are protected from the "muggles with apps" now that anyone with a smart phone can jump in with no commitment or responsibility.

 

I had never thought about this before but it's understandable that if GS is trying to provide a taste of geocaching by making a free app and a restriction on the Difficulty rating to 1.5 or less that would make it more likely that someone that hasn't played before would find every cache they try. I don't quite understand the restriction by terrain to 1.5 or less though. In fact, a restriction of caches which have a 2T or higher might provide a better taste of the adventure that awaits if they continue with the game.

No thanks.

If you remember, the Intro app was 1-2 Difficulty, and 1-3 in Terrain, and we were having issues then.

I'd like to think that HQ decided to lower this free version because of the many COs complaining of muggles with apps.

We saw folks with prior issues raising their cache D/T just to stay off that Intro app, since making them pmo would also affect the long-time basic members as well.

[+niraD]

If you remember, the Intro app was 1-2 Difficulty, and 1-3 in Terrain, and we were having issues then.

I'd like to think that HQ decided to lower this free version because of the many COs complaining of muggles with apps.

We saw folks with prior issues raising their cache D/T just to stay off that Intro app, since making them pmo would also affect the long-time basic members as well.

I think there's a big difference between "muggles with apps" (i.e., newbies who have discovered the Geocaching app on their phone and who have no other guidance) and newbies who are being introduced to geocaching by their friends.

 

I know that when I introduce people to geocaching, I take them on a hike. We hike more than "0.5 mile (0.8 km)" from the trailhead (T1.5). Usually, we hike more than "2 miles (3 km)" from the trailhead (T2). And after taking them to a few easy ones, it's nice to take them to a well-camouflaged cache that might take significantly more than "10-15 minutes" to find (D1.5).

 

So now that I've introduced them to geocaching, the ones who are interested in continuing on their own might ask what app they can use to continue finding caches like the ones they found with me. It's too bad that Groundspeak's Geocaching app won't let them find such caches unless they decide they're ready to commit to a premium membership.

 

At one point, I was under the impression that basic members could enter the GC code of "advanced" caches and download the data. Maybe that was an API thing. Maybe that was something one of the Groundspeak apps did. Maybe I was completely misinformed. But it seems that that would be a good compromise. If a newbie is searching with only the app, then they see only caches rated D1.5/T1.5 and below. But if a geocaching friend gives them the GC code of a more interesting cache, or if they use the web site to identify the GC code of a more interesting cache, then clearly they've moved beyond the "muggles with apps" stage, and they should be able to download the cache date.

[+barefootjeff]

When I started in 2013 there were no apps so I began on the website, finding my first cache from the satellite image before forking out a few hundred dollars for a GPSr, which I thought might be useful for other activities if I didn't much like caching.

Please explain.

 

The other 2/3rds had a blackberry and the Trimble app in '05, and the geocaching classic app was developed in 2008.

Thanks.

Oops, what I meant was I didn't have a smartphone then (my employer provided my phone and wouldn't pay for anything more than a basic Nokia) and I wasn't aware of geocaching apps.

[+cerberus1]

If you remember, the Intro app was 1-2 Difficulty, and 1-3 in Terrain, and we were having issues then.

I'd like to think that HQ decided to lower this free version because of the many COs complaining of muggles with apps.

We saw folks with prior issues raising their cache D/T just to stay off that Intro app, since making them pmo would also affect the long-time basic members as well.

I think there's a big difference between "muggles with apps" (i.e., newbies who have discovered the Geocaching app on their phone and who have no other guidance) and newbies who are being introduced to geocaching by their friends.

It's tough to get through the entire first post, but I don't recall seeing "caching with friends" within it.

The posts I responded to (not included here...) didn't either, but implied new folks joining on their own.

 

What is part of the OP though is, "The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game".

[+barefootjeff]

When we talk about all the 1.5/1.5 caches, probably we are talking about 50% of all caches available.

Using the official app, a new player have access to more or less 1 500 000 caches.

Considering this a strong limitation, makes me smile.

 

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

 

Instead of talking about different limitations in the app, I would like to see alternatives to keep the homepage running, from any new user creating threads about the app.

 

It's easy to speak about free 3rd party apps... but would they be free if had to supporting the homepage by themselves???

Within 25km of my home, there are 593 enabled caches but only 103 of those are traditionals with D and T 1.5 or less, so that's 17%. But it's not about the number, it's about the range of experience. For me, the caches that really got me interested were the higher terrain ones.

Edited July 4, 2017 by barefootjeff

[+Team Taran]

I have posted this before but it is still true. When I started, I had the simplest gps on the market. I had to enter the coordinates by hand and either print out the cache page or make notes. This is still possible. Anyone who wants to plan ahead and make an effort can search any non premium cache they choose. If they don't want to make the effort then buy a premium membership. Plenty of people invest more than $30 a year in a hobby.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Team Taran

[+nextlogicalstep]

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

That's the first I've heard of that. If new members aren't even aware that this is possible, what's the point?

[+cerberus1]

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

That's the first I've heard of that. If new members aren't even aware that this is possible, what's the point?

Kinda get where you're coming from, and have to admit, other than helpful RuideAlmeida's occasional posts on this, have never seen it anywhere.

There were other options at one time, one was through GPSr manufacturers (not done any longer), and another is time-sensitive deals sometimes in the blog or newsletter.

- The last was 1/2 off a yearly pm for basic members in April (IIRC).

I thought it a bonus for those beginners who actually read a bit about the hobby.

[RuideAlmeida]

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

That's the first I've heard of that. If new members aren't even aware that this is possible, what's the point?

 

I wouldn't be so certain myself to think that everything that I don't know in this amazing game, makes no point... well, but at least now you know, maybe you can share it with your yet Basic Member friends. (Please do so)

 

Since 2012 I keep on saying here in the forums and on other social media about geocaching, so sorry that I never had reach you.

[+niraD]

It's tough to get through the entire first post, but I don't recall seeing "caching with friends" within it.

The posts I responded to (not included here...) didn't either, but implied new folks joining on their own.

 

What is part of the OP though is, "The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game".

Okay, let me try again.

 

I acknowledge that there is an issue with "muggles with apps". People try out the app with no idea of what geocaching is about. And for people like that who have no idea what geocaching is about other than what they've managed to pick up from the app, perhaps a limit of T1.5/D1.5 and below makes sense.

 

The problem is that T1.5/D1.5 is being applied to all basic members. A good compromise might be to allow basic members to enter the GC code of an "advanced" cache, and to download the cache data for that GC code. If they are with geocaching friends who provide them with the GC code, or if they're using the web site to identify interesting caches and getting the GC code that way, then they are no longer "muggles with apps".

 

So, if we assume that:

• limiting all basic members to T1.5/D1.5 caches is indeed "harming the game" (as the OP wrote), and
  
• limiting all "muggles with apps" to T1.5/D1.5 is good for the game,

then perhaps the suggested compromise would address both issues.

[+nextlogicalstep]

Just one more thing... any Basic Member can ask a volunteer for a monthly free PM voucher, which will provide access to all the caches in the world. More than enough to decide to continue or to left.

That's the first I've heard of that. If new members aren't even aware that this is possible, what's the point?

 

I wouldn't be so certain myself to think that everything that I don't know in this amazing game, makes no point... well, but at least now you know, maybe you can share it with your yet Basic Member friends. (Please do so)

 

Since 2012 I keep on saying here in the forums and on other social media about geocaching, so sorry that I never had reach you.

 

If the purpose is for it to be accessible to newbies and the average newbie would have pretty much no chance of ever finding out about it, I think it's safe to say it serves no purpose. To equate that with assuming that everything I don't know about geocaching has no point is a pretty big leap.

[RuideAlmeida]

If the purpose is for it to be accessible to newbies...

 

No, the purpose is to present to any Basic Member the benefits of being Premium Member without necessarily having to pay for it.

[+cerberus1]

It's tough to get through the entire first post, but I don't recall seeing "caching with friends" within it.

The posts I responded to (not included here...) didn't either, but implied new folks joining on their own.

 

What is part of the OP though is, "The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game".

Okay, let me try again.

 

I acknowledge that there is an issue with "muggles with apps". People try out the app with no idea of what geocaching is about. And for people like that who have no idea what geocaching is about other than what they've managed to pick up from the app, perhaps a limit of T1.5/D1.5 and below makes sense.

 

The problem is that T1.5/D1.5 is being applied to all basic members. A good compromise might be to allow basic members to enter the GC code of an "advanced" cache, and to download the cache data for that GC code. If they are with geocaching friends who provide them with the GC code, or if they're using the web site to identify interesting caches and getting the GC code that way, then they are no longer "muggles with apps".

 

So, if we assume that:

• limiting all basic members to T1.5/D1.5 caches is indeed "harming the game" (as the OP wrote), and
  
• limiting all "muggles with apps" to T1.5/D1.5 is good for the game,

then perhaps the suggested compromise would address both issues.

I thought I understood you the first time...

- "The problem" seems to be how would the site be able to differentiate between what you believe are two different cachers, though all basic members.

Last I recall, basic members can already access all caches other than pmo from the site.

Can a basic member use one of the back-door methods to log "advanced" caches, similar to pmo, if given the GC code while caching with another?

If so, I'm okay with that.

[+noncentric]

At one point, I was under the impression that basic members could enter the GC code of "advanced" caches and download the data. Maybe that was an API thing. Maybe that was something one of the Groundspeak apps did. Maybe I was completely misinformed. But it seems that that would be a good compromise. If a newbie is searching with only the app, then they see only caches rated D1.5/T1.5 and below. But if a geocaching friend gives them the GC code of a more interesting cache, or if they use the web site to identify the GC code of a more interesting cache, then clearly they've moved beyond the "muggles with apps" stage, and they should be able to download the cache date.

That is indeed an "an API thing". If a seasoned cacher wants to introduce the hobby to their friends, then maybe suggesting the official app is not the best advice. A seasoned cacher would presumably know the capabilities and limitations of various apps and could therefore advise their friends accordingly.

'Muggles with apps' that don't spend time learning about the hobby are also unlikely to investigate various apps, so they're probably going to go straight to the official app.

 

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

[+niraD]

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

Is that still how it works? Because the last time I tried to access an "advanced" cache by GC code using an API-based app, it didn't work. (This was May 19, 2017.)

[+EliteJonathan81]

It's tough to get through the entire first post, but I don't recall seeing "caching with friends" within it.

The posts I responded to (not included here...) didn't either, but implied new folks joining on their own.

 

What is part of the OP though is, "The purpose of this thread is to discuss the 1.5/1.5 d/t restriction of the new app, and why I feel that it's doing more harm to the game".

Okay, let me try again.

 

I acknowledge that there is an issue with "muggles with apps". People try out the app with no idea of what geocaching is about. And for people like that who have no idea what geocaching is about other than what they've managed to pick up from the app, perhaps a limit of T1.5/D1.5 and below makes sense.

 

The problem is that T1.5/D1.5 is being applied to all basic members. A good compromise might be to allow basic members to enter the GC code of an "advanced" cache, and to download the cache data for that GC code. If they are with geocaching friends who provide them with the GC code, or if they're using the web site to identify interesting caches and getting the GC code that way, then they are no longer "muggles with apps".

 

So, if we assume that:

• limiting all basic members to T1.5/D1.5 caches is indeed "harming the game" (as the OP wrote), and
  
• limiting all "muggles with apps" to T1.5/D1.5 is good for the game,

then perhaps the suggested compromise would address both issues.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this compromise. Even though I initially wanted the restriction gone in my OP, what the discussion has highlighted is 2 types of basic member, that need to somehow be differentiated between. And this idea seems a good way of differentiating between them.

 

I think this suits Groundspeak wanting people to purchase membership (as it would be annoying to keep tying in the GC code all the time). It helps long-time cachers get newbies into the game (explaining the inns and outs, so they move above a "muggle with app") and then present them the app as a means of "how they can do it themselves", along with geocaching.com for the GC codes of advanced caches. The one important thing is that advanced caches aren't displayed at all (before entering a GC code) rather than just locked (as quite a few people will see a "paywall" and quit). And it protects caches from those that haven't taken the time to learn the inns and outs of the hobby. In short, everybody wins if you're listening Groundspeak.

[+noncentric]

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

Is that still how it works? Because the last time I tried to access an "advanced" cache by GC code using an API-based app, it didn't work. (This was May 19, 2017.)

The info I posted was from the API license agreement on the website. I would expect that that's what the partner apps would follow? What type of denial message did you get when you attempted to enter the advanced cache's code? Maybe you had already surpassed the 3 per day limit?

 

I think this suits Groundspeak wanting people to purchase membership (as it would be annoying to keep tying in the GC code all the time). It helps long-time cachers get newbies into the game (explaining the inns and outs, so they move above a "muggle with app") and then present them the app as a means of "how they can do it themselves", along with geocaching.com for the GC codes of advanced caches. The one important thing is that advanced caches aren't displayed at all (before entering a GC code) rather than just locked (as quite a few people will see a "paywall" and quit). And it protects caches from those that haven't taken the time to learn the inns and outs of the hobby. In short, everybody wins if you're listening Groundspeak.

It's the partner apps using the API that allow for viewing cache details by entering the GC code. The official app does not allow Basic Members to do that.

Perhaps cachers that are introducing new people to the game should show the newbies that they can get details of all non-PMO caches from the website and then tell the newbies about the various apps that they can use. Whether it be Google Maps to enter coords, a GPS app, or a geocaching partner app (Cachly, etc). The official app doesn't run ads, so I'm not sure that Groundspeak would be bothered by cachers using a different app. If cachers don't want to buy Premium, then would Groundspeak really care whether those BM's use the official vs partner app?

[+niraD]

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

Is that still how it works? Because the last time I tried to access an "advanced" cache by GC code using an API-based app, it didn't work. (This was May 19, 2017.)

The info I posted was from the API license agreement on the website. I would expect that that's what the partner apps would follow? What type of denial message did you get when you attempted to enter the advanced cache's code? Maybe you had already surpassed the 3 per day limit?

I don't think there was an error message. I entered the GC code and got "Search Results: 0 geocaches"

 

It hadn't exceeded the 3 per day limit, because that was the first thing I had done with the app that day (and today).

 

With Groundspeak's Geocaching app, I get the "You must be a Premium member to view this geocache."

[+noncentric]

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

Is that still how it works? Because the last time I tried to access an "advanced" cache by GC code using an API-based app, it didn't work. (This was May 19, 2017.)

The info I posted was from the API license agreement on the website. I would expect that that's what the partner apps would follow? What type of denial message did you get when you attempted to enter the advanced cache's code? Maybe you had already surpassed the 3 per day limit?

I don't think there was an error message. I entered the GC code and got "Search Results: 0 geocaches"

 

It hadn't exceeded the 3 per day limit, because that was the first thing I had done with the app that day (and today).

 

With Groundspeak's Geocaching app, I get the "You must be a Premium member to view this geocache."

That's weird. And you're certain it's a non-PMO cache? Silly question, but I gotta ask.

Your experience would be good feedback to the developer of the app you're using, because it sounds like a bug.

[+niraD]

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

Is that still how it works? Because the last time I tried to access an "advanced" cache by GC code using an API-based app, it didn't work. (This was May 19, 2017.)

The info I posted was from the API license agreement on the website. I would expect that that's what the partner apps would follow? What type of denial message did you get when you attempted to enter the advanced cache's code? Maybe you had already surpassed the 3 per day limit?

I don't think there was an error message. I entered the GC code and got "Search Results: 0 geocaches"

 

It hadn't exceeded the 3 per day limit, because that was the first thing I had done with the app that day (and today).

 

With Groundspeak's Geocaching app, I get the "You must be a Premium member to view this geocache."

That's weird. And you're certain it's a non-PMO cache? Silly question, but I gotta ask.

Your experience would be good feedback to the developer of the app you're using, because it sounds like a bug.

It's a non-PMO cache. I can see it just fine from the web site. (Actually, I've tried this with multiple non-PMO caches since I first discovered it.

[+thebruce0]

When I started, I had the simplest gps on the market. I had to enter the coordinates by hand and either print out the cache page or make notes. This is still possible. Anyone who wants to plan ahead and make an effort can search any non premium cache they choose. If they don't want to make the effort then buy a premium membership. Plenty of people invest more than $30 a year in a hobby.

While that's all certainly still true, the vast, vast majority of people who are coming into the game now are coming into it from the digital era. With that being the primary entryway, it has to be well decorated and manned by Groundspeak if they wish to keep geocaching activity high. As a community we may lead people into the hobby the 'classic' way, and that may even lead to a higher retentionrate, but smartphones and apps can't be downplayed, nor their benefits to many aspects of the hobby that 'modern' newcomers will find much more pleasing (despite being able to argue that there can be more fulfillment the 'classic' ways of playing )

[+EliteJonathan81]

When I started, I had the simplest gps on the market. I had to enter the coordinates by hand and either print out the cache page or make notes. This is still possible. Anyone who wants to plan ahead and make an effort can search any non premium cache they choose. If they don't want to make the effort then buy a premium membership. Plenty of people invest more than $30 a year in a hobby.

While that's all certainly still true, the vast, vast majority of people who are coming into the game now are coming into it from the digital era. With that being the primary entryway, it has to be well decorated and manned by Groundspeak if they wish to keep geocaching activity high. As a community we may lead people into the hobby the 'classic' way, and that may even lead to a higher retentionrate, but smartphones and apps can't be downplayed, nor their benefits to many aspects of the hobby that 'modern' newcomers will find much more pleasing (despite being able to argue that there can be more fulfillment the 'classic' ways of playing )

 

Well said, wish I could stick this right into my original post (as well as the compromise that was earlier suggested). Unfortunately I can't edit that without deleting all my other posts.