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Release Notes - February 2, 2016

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we are removing support for HTML and UBB code in logs in favor of Markdown

The BBCode tool list is still visible and usable above the markdown tool list. Is this intentional?

1. Can you post a screenshot of what you're describing?

2. Are you using any Greasemonkey scripts, etc., that run on the log page?

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we are removing support for HTML and UBB code in logs in favor of Markdown

The BBCode tool list is still visible and usable above the markdown tool list. Is this intentional?

1. Can you post a screenshot of what you're describing?

2. Are you using any Greasemonkey scripts, etc., that run on the log page?

God, that's embarrassing after reading so often this advise.

I never took advantage of it but of course it was a Greasmonkey script (GC Little Helper). Sorry..... :sad:

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No problem! I often find myself having to turn off Greasemonkey so that I can remember what is native to the site and what's been added on in scripts!

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I would like the black line between logs a little thinner and a little less black please, thank you.

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So when does markdown come to the rest of the site? I'd love to use it when creating/editing my cache listings.

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So when does markdown come to the rest of the site? I'd love to use it when creating/editing my cache listings.

NO!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you really want to break probably half the cache pages on the site? Or are you hoping for mass archiving because folks don't want the clean up the mess left by that change? I would archive my hides instead of dealing with the mess that change would cause.

Edited by jholly
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Following some of the other "cosmetic" changes there have been various complaints that the "gentle colours" make it more difficult for people with visual impairments to read the text, and clamouring for things to be put back to plain black on white text. Now complaints that plain black on white is too harsh.

 

The old saying "d@mned if you do, d@mned if you dont" seems to fit here.

 

Just give the user the possibility to choose the color scheme / the theme in his settings. Other websites have this feature since 20 years...

 

Thats the problem with Groundspeak's changes in general - no choice.

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So when does markdown come to the rest of the site? I'd love to use it when creating/editing my cache listings.

NO!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you really want to break probably half the cache pages on the site? Or are you hoping for mass archiving because folks don't want the clean up the mess left by that change? I would archive my hides instead of dealing with the mess that change would cause.

I agree (though less vociferously). Broken formatting in logs is largely a cosmetic issue. However, were this to occur in cache descriptions, important information could be modified/lost, puzzles could be rendered unsolvable, etc.

 

Since there's a lot Markdown can't do, there's no way they could remove HTML rendering from cache listings. Having both HTML and Markdown rendering on the same text would lead to some pretty nightmarish scenarios, both for users and the developers that would have to build the system.

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Well, I know that things change, and there's nothing we can do about it ... (except try to post our disagreement)....

So, I think my logs will now be:

 

Found it. SL. TFTC.

 

That will really encourage others to look for a particular cache.

 

(Sad, after all the hard work Cache Owners put into placing a challenging cache.)

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So, I think my logs will now be:

 

Found it. SL. TFTC.

 

How does markdown prevent you from writing long logs? I rarely use any formatting in my logs and my average word count is about 50 words. (not really that huge, but also not 4 as in 'tftc')

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' timestamp='1454741497' post='5563141']

So, I think my logs will now be:

 

Found it. SL. TFTC.

 

How does markdown prevent you from writing long logs? I rarely use any formatting in my logs and my average word count is about 50 words. (not really that huge, but also not 4 as in 'tftc')

 

Of course markdown does not prevent some from writing long logs. I typically write very long logs and I have never used html and bbb code commands in my logs. However I'm quite sure that some of my old logs are affected in the sense that something is interpreted as markdown which is plain text.

 

The key issue seems to be however that many cachers are left with the feeling that their work in the past invested into writing logs they regarded as nice (and formating and colours can be part of that) is not respected by Groundspeak by making such a dramatic change after >15 years (note the stress on feeling - I'm not making any claims about Groundspeak!). Changing their log style as mentioned above is certainly a reaction to that feeling.

 

There are different ways one can react to unwanted changes - I wondered for a moment whether I should write at least one log with one letter per line to make the point that I'm not addressing my logs to mobile devices and so do not care not in the least how my logs or someone else's logs display there. What counts for me is only the website and the integrity of the logs there.

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*", or that requires the average user to hunt down and learn the fact that a "\" placed in just the right spot will prevent said unintentional formatting, is fully borked.

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*", or that requires the average user to hunt down and learn the fact that a "\" placed in just the right spot will prevent said unintentional formatting, is fully borked.

Doubly so, if it retrospectively does this on logs that were not previously rendered as such.

 

Groundspeak: please stop treating pre-Markdown logs as Markdown. You know when a log was last edited; surely a simple check of that date before passing the log off to the Markdown parser wouldn't be too much to ask? :angry:

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Do you really want to break probably half the cache pages on the site? Or are you hoping for mass archiving because folks don't want the clean up the mess left by that change? I would archive my hides instead of dealing with the mess that change would cause.

 

Well they already did that. Just before I was planning to buy a premium membership, the width of the cache pages was forced to a maximum. Sizes of images and tables are altered (including spacing and border width) my cache pages looked like a mess. I don't like to give money to people who make a mess of my work, so I never bothered to buy the premium membership. Actually Groundspeak has messed up a couple of times after that so I'm now at -6.5 permium memberships

 

Tc

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*", or that requires the average user to hunt down and learn the fact that a "\" placed in just the right spot will prevent said unintentional formatting, is fully borked.

Doubly so, if it retrospectively does this on logs that were not previously rendered as such.

 

Groundspeak: please stop treating pre-Markdown logs as Markdown. You know when a log was last edited; surely a simple check of that date before passing the log off to the Markdown parser wouldn't be too much to ask? :angry:

If this is acceptable language then let me add my agreement.

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*", or that requires the average user to hunt down and learn the fact that a "\" placed in just the right spot will prevent said unintentional formatting, is fully borked.

Doubly so, if it retrospectively does this on logs that were not previously rendered as such.

 

Groundspeak: please stop treating pre-Markdown logs as Markdown. You know when a log was last edited; surely a simple check of that date before passing the log off to the Markdown parser wouldn't be too much to ask? :angry:

If this is acceptable language then let me add my agreement.

 

And me.

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If the argument for not converting old logs is that only 3% used formatting, why spend so much time on making a new way to format for those 3%? Why not skip formatting all together?

 

Rendering old logs, for the 97% that doesn't use formatting, as formatted, doesn't make sense at all.

I agree, no sense at all, please render them as before.

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Groundspeak: please stop treating pre-Markdown logs as Markdown. You know when a log was last edited; surely a simple check of that date before passing the log off to the Markdown parser wouldn't be too much to ask? :angry:
Here's another vote. Not that you're asking us to vote.
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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*"...

This is a terrible example. I would claim that the stars are put around "FTF" specifically to emphasize it, so rendering it in italics is quite logical. The whole point of markdown is that it does fancy rendering for what some people have always done to indicate in plain text something that could be expressed better in a more modern environment. The real problem cases are the ones where markdown actually changes what was intended, including the astonishing case where "23." is changed to "1.".

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For the most part I'm pretty agnostic about the whole Markdown, HTML, BBCOde stuff... I just use plain text in my logs... Some may now be screwed up due to misinterpretation by the Markdown code, but I don't look at my old logs online anyway.. If I want to look at them, it's much easier to do it in GSAK...

 

What you could do is add a checkbox for "This log includes Markdown Formatting". So, if you DO want to use the fancy formatting stuff, check the box and have it interpreted that way... If you leave the box unchecked, then nothing gets "re-interpreted" and is displayed as plain text exactly as written...

 

If "Off" is the default, then all those old logs would also not get re-interpreted.

 

Thanks.

 

-TWT

Edited by TheWinterTrio
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Thank you very much for reacting quickly to 'ordered lists' vs. misinterpreting ordinal numbers in various languages.

 

Edit: I see you were working on it, now the numbers and blanks seem OK in the log.

 

Personally I think this is a good solution. If you want a ordered list, press the button for every element (or type number and dot and blank yourself :D) and for everything else starting with number,followed by dot, nothing unfortunate happens.

 

Please consider also restricting unordered lists to being started with *.

 

That would help keep + and - from being omitted on the website when they are meant as + or -. And it would be consistent to what is shown in the help section.

 

And maybe consider restricting italics and bold to * and ** like shown in the help section. Only 3.5% of all logs had formatting, it seems reasonable not to support all possibilities Markdown has, as you already restricted H1 (opening AND closing # necessary) and italics and bold to (minimum, although this still has unwanted side-effects in meant-as-plaintext logs) whole words.

Edited by AnnaMoritz
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Suddenly links do not work any longer in logs - neither in old nor in new logs.

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Maybe heavy work in progress regarding links. Markdown formatted are working at the moment.

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*"...

This is a terrible example. I would claim that the stars are put around "FTF" specifically to emphasize it, so rendering it in italics is quite logical. The whole point of markdown is that it does fancy rendering for what some people have always done to indicate in plain text something that could be expressed better in a more modern environment. The real problem cases are the ones where markdown actually changes what was intended, including the astonishing case where "23." is changed to "1.".

 

The stars are not necessarily put around "FTF" to emphasize it, but to differentiate it. If I wrote in a log that I just missed an FTF by 5 minutes and in another cache wrote thanks for the *FTF*, then I would be able to search previous logs for "*FTF*" to find my First to Finds without having my near misses coming up in the search also.

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Things that have been tried ... and failed ... and have been removed (after input from the geocaching community):

 

From the Geocaching Blog dated August 19, 2011 https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2011/08/geocaching-challenges-thanks-for-the-feedback/

 

I recall going to the Geocaching Block Party on August 20, 2011 and talking to Jeremy about "Challenges" (And I wasn't the only one!)

 

Then, later this appeared: From the Geocaching Website: http://www.geocaching.com/challenges/default.aspx

 

Check out this statement on this page:

 

On an office wall here at HQ is a sign that reads, "Let's make better mistakes tomorrow." By accepting that we will sometimes get it wrong, we can allow ourselves to learn from and imagine new opportunities in the world of Geocaching.

Perhaps there is hope that Markdown will be gone soon ... Or some of the suggestions will be implemented regarding logs created or edited before Feb 2, 2016 (that they would be displayed as they were originally created)!

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Any system that creates formatting because I've typed something as innocuous as, "*FTF*"...

This is a terrible example. I would claim that the stars are put around "FTF" specifically to emphasize it, so rendering it in italics is quite logical. The whole point of markdown is that it does fancy rendering for what some people have always done to indicate in plain text something that could be expressed better in a more modern environment. The real problem cases are the ones where markdown actually changes what was intended, including the astonishing case where "23." is changed to "1.".

 

Of course the asterisks are put around "FTF" to emphasize it, that's not really much of a claim. However, just because someone has used the asterisks to do so, does not make it logical for the software to decide that I wanted italics. Would it be just as logical if it had chosen bold, underlined, or superscript as how I had meant to emphasize it?

 

My point, though, applies to both "*FTF*" and "23." And I say again that any system that, instead of allowing a user to choose formatting, forces them to learn how to prevent the unintended formatting of their logs, is inherently flawed.

 

Edited to add:

It seems that the "23." situation has been fixed.

Edited by Mr Kaswa
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1) Too much white. This change was about Markdown - why did we lose the alternating background color in the logs?

 

2) I understand you removed the old parser which took care of UBB/HTML code in the logs. Then why not display the old logs without any formatting at all? You would have no complaints about converting dates (3. února -> 1. února) to lists and so on. Just display the old logs as a plain text, that is easy to do.

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Markdown formatted are working at the moment.

 

Links in old and new logs (not using markdown) still do not work. It's frustrating and I'm not willing to edit hundreds of logs to make the links work.

(I have some logs that are full of links that provide interesting background information.)

When I asked about links some weeks ago, the answer has been that they will continue to work which was true in the first days after the switch to Markdown. Without prior announcement however

apparently the treatment of links has been changed.

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I find the preview window below the box where I am typing my log to be very distracting. Something about seeing two characters appearing for every key stroke throws me off.

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