Some Terms I couldn't find

[+PlantAKiss]

I looked for this information but couldn't find it. I'm sure Pup Patrol will come along and show me where they are.

 

But in the mean time I need to know:

 

1) What is an offset cache (couldn't find in Gallery of Terms or Cache type).

 

2) What is a virtual stage? [i know Virt caches have been grandfathered.] Do virtual stages have the 528ft restrictions?

 

3) With a multi-stage cache, is the first-stage always considered "the cache" and that is the point from which the cache sat. is determined?

And the physical stages of a multi must be 528 ft. between stages? (I've seen a multi where the first stage was only 80 feet from the first stage... ).

Or can physical multi stages be closer than 528? Does a stage have to be 528ft away from an unrelated cache?

 

I did a cache recently where GZ was a location where you read something off a plaque. You were then told IN THE CACHE DESCRIPTION "to walk South, down a hill a to a boom boom and there you'd find the cache." I've never seen a cache like that before. Was that an offset cache where the cache isn't at the posted coords? Does the offset have to be 528ft.?

 

I'm sorry but I need to understand these things--some rules have changed from the past and some changes are new, and I'm trying to figure it all out and how I can apply it.

 

[Keystone]

I don't think any of the rules have changed recently. The last change was to make virtual stages exempt from the cache saturation guideline, but that was years ago.

[+PlantAKiss]

I should clarify....rules changes that could have occurred many years ago during my absence from caching. From my original start....gap....start again...things ARE different! I don't remember anything called virtual stages so I have no idea how they work exactly. Nor offset caches. ??

[+Isonzo Karst]

I looked for this information but couldn't find it. I'm sure Pup Patrol will come along and show me where they are.

 

1) What is an offset cache (couldn't find in Gallery of Terms or Cache type).

 

2) What is a virtual stage?

 

3) With a multi-stage cache, is the first-stage always considered "the cache" and that is the point from which the cache sat. is determined?

And the physical stages of a multi must be 528 ft. between stages? (I've seen a multi where the first stage was only 80 feet from the first stage... ).

Or can physical multi stages be closer than 528? Does a stage have to be 528ft away from an unrelated cache?

 

 

1. An offset cache takes the seeker to something, and there the seeker uses instructions on the cache page to extract info to another clue or location, either the final or another stage. There can be many stages, with info gathering at all of them, building info to a final physical stage. (This used to be defined directly in the listing guidelines.) I own a bunch of simple offsets, they allow me to take cachers somewhere, but not have to maintain a physical stage at that point. Example multi-cache Tucker Cemetary http://coord.info/GCVW0K Another simple bearing and distance offset as LBH Windmill http://coord.info/GC2X18B

 

2. A virtual stage is a location where the cache owner has placed nothing, usually instructions on the cache page allow the seeker to extract info and turn it into coords or a physical location - see the listing coords for the caches linked above. Virtual stages have no proximity, ie there's no requirement for them to be 528ft from other caches.

 

3. I'm not sure what your question is re "the cache". All of the stages of the cache are part of it.

There is no distance limit on stages of a multi. Though too close and one stage can be found while searching for another (I've done this), and at far distances, there needs to be a maintenance plan. (Near me is a cache that starts in Florida eand nds in Germany). Physical parts of caches need to be 528ft from physical parts of other caches.

[Pup Patrol]

I looked for this information but couldn't find it. I'm sure Pup Patrol will come along and show me where they are.

 

 

Generally, I find most questions can be answered by going to the Big 3:

 

1.) Help Center

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php

 

2.) Guidelines

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

3.) Google

 

1) What is an offset cache (couldn't find in Gallery of Terms or Cache type).

 

What *I* know as an offset cache is a multicache where, to find the final, one needs to project a waypoint. The bearing and distance are usually in the cache description.

 

Examples:

http://coord.info/GCQ39T

http://coord.info/GC3N3QQ

 

What I have found by googling is that any multicache is considered an "offset cache".

 

I've searched the Help Center, and couldn't find the term "offset". I'm pretty sure it used to be somewhere in there. Maybe I've not had enough caffeine yet.

 

2) What is a virtual stage? [i know Virt caches have been grandfathered.] Do virtual stages have the 528ft restrictions?

 

Oh, this is a nice easy one.

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache → Review Process: Hiding a Geocache

1.15. Stages and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

I'll quote just a relevant snippet, but there is more there to read.

 

In May 2014, the geocache submission process was updated with a new look, feel and overall streamlining. Several key changes for stages and additional waypoints are:

 

Geocache stages are renamed:

 

Physical - You placed an item there, such as a container or a tag. This was formerly called "Stages of a Multicache". These locations must be 528 feet (161 meters) away from a physical stage of any other geocache.

 

Virtual - You did not place an item there. Examples: a park sign that has information needed to work out the coordinates for another stage or final container. This was formerly called "Question to Answer". These stages can be closer than 528 feet (161 meters) from another geocache.

 

3) With a multi-stage cache, is the first-stage always considered "the cache" and that is the point from which the cache sat. is determined?

 

If it is a multicache, then the first stage is just that. That is not "the cache".

 

To determine whether it is the start point for the saturation guideline, one needs to know if that first stage is a physical or a virtual stage.

 

And the physical stages of a multi must be 528 ft. between stages? (I've seen a multi where the first stage was only 80 feet from the first stage... ). Or can physical multi stages be closer than 528?

 

The stages within a single multicache do not need to adhere to the saturation guideline.

 

1.12. Saturation Guideline: Hidden, Virtual and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=232

 

Again, lots of information, but here's a relevant snippet:

 

A multi-cache can have stages 100 feet apart, or 100 miles apart. The distance between stages of a single geocache is limited only by the owner's ability to maintain those stages.

 

Another relevant snippet from the Guidelines:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements.

 

Does a stage have to be 528ft away from an unrelated cache?

 

Again, a physical stage or a virtual stage?

 

Back to the Guidelines:

 

7. Physical elements of different geocaches should be at least 0.10 miles (528 ft or 161 m) apart.

 

A physical stage is defined as any waypoint that contains a physical element placed by the cache owner, such as a container or a tag with the next set of coordinates. Non-physical caches or stages, including reference points, trail-head/parking coordinates and/or a virtual stage waypoints, are exempt from this guideline. Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements. The graphic below shows a few examples of what is and is not acceptable in terms of cache saturation. EarthCaches are exempt from this guideline as they do not have physical waypoints.

 

I did a cache recently where GZ was a location where you read something off a plaque. You were then told IN THE CACHE DESCRIPTION "to walk South, down a hill a to a boom boom and there you'd find the cache." I've never seen a cache like that before. Was that an offset cache where the cache isn't at the posted coords? Does the offset have to be 528ft.?

 

You haven't found any Multicaches "recently". Can't comment on this without knowing the GC code of the cache.

 

I'm sorry but I need to understand these things--some rules have changed from the past and some changes are new, and I'm trying to figure it all out and how I can apply it.

 

I don't think much has changed, really. A number of Guidelines have been updated over the years, some cache types have been grandfathered.

 

B.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Offset caches were often a waypoint projection, but any cache with 1 virtual stage and 1 physical stage is usually referred to as an offset.

 

Offset caches are an excellent way to simulate Virtual caches.

[Pup Patrol]

Is this thread related to your other recent thread?

 

Reviewer Appeals Resource Is there one?

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=331038

 

 

B.

[Keystone]

Possibly. One way around a cache saturation issue is to use a virtual stage of a multicache at the area you wanted to bring visitors to, but which is blocked by an unrelated cache 400 feet away. The virtual stage provides clues to a container and log (physical stage) a short distance away, outside the 528 foot "circle" for the existing cache. I recommend this option frequently to cache owners.

[+Isonzo Karst]

In the June 2010 guidelines, offset was listed under multi. I think it was in the guidelines in in 2003. It disappeared from guidelines at some later point, not sure when (you can find old guideline version on the web - wayback machine).

 

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

 

It's also possible to use this design style in Letterbox hybrids, and for it have a puzzle element, making it a Mystery.

[+PlantAKiss]

Thank you Pup Patrol--I had already read most of what you posted (I do TRY to find answers first...I don't always "get it"). I was still confused. Sorry... I tried looking up offset and got 0 results. And I don't have any virtual anythings. All my caches/stages are physical. I didn't know virt stages existed until someone mentioned that to me recently (that's one of those things that are "new" to me.

 

Keystone, yes my questions are related to my previous question about the appeals process. I am trying everything possible to "save" a cache I worked hard on and I can't move it. Moving would ruin the reason for placing it there to begin with.

 

I think I do remember now that multis were called offsets at one time.

 

Pup Patrol...

I did a cache recently where GZ was a location where you read something off a plaque. You were then told IN THE CACHE DESCRIPTION "to walk South, down a hill a to a boom boom and there you'd find the cache." I've never seen a cache like that before. Was that an offset cache where the cache isn't at the posted coords? Does the offset have to be 528ft.?

 

The cache I mentioned was not a multi cache. It was a regular cache. That's why I was surprised I had to walk quite aways away by instruction from "GZ" to find the cache. In other words, cache not anywhere close to GZ. I still don't understand that.

 

I could well be "disremembering", but I THOUGHT at the time I placed my caches in 2007, the rule was a minimum of the Magic528 between each stage of a multi. Hence, my two multis do not have any stage closer than 528. I was given permission by the reviewer at that time to place a single cache less than 528 from a cache stage.

 

So...am I understanding that a physical CACHE STAGE of a multi is NOT counted for the sat rule? It is the first stage of a multi that is too close to the new cache I'm trying to place.

 

IS THERE HOPE? :-)

Edited April 6, 2015 by PlantAKiss

[Keystone]

Your new traditional cache's physical container must be at least 528 feet from any physical element of a nearby multicache.

Your new traditional cache's physical container can be closer than 528 feet from any virtual element of a nearby multicache.

 

In reverse:

 

If you are hiding a multicache, each physical element of your cache must be at least 528 feet away from any other physical elements of other caches of all types.

If you are hiding a multicache, any virtual element of your cache can be closer than 528 feet to other physical caches.

[+fuzziebear3]

Within the same multi, there is no requirements about the distance between the stages. They might be on top of each other, or across the country.

 

However, for every location that you put a physical container, that must be 528 feet from all other physical containers of all other caches.

But if a location is virtual -- something like a plaque that you get numbers off of, no container added there, then it is exempt from the 528 foot rule.

[Keystone]

Keystone, yes my questions are related to my previous question about the appeals process. I am trying everything possible to "save" a cache I worked hard on and I can't move it. Moving would ruin the reason for placing it there to begin with.

 

...

 

IS THERE HOPE? :-)

When the same account owns all the caches involved in a cache saturation conflict, the odds of an exception being made are slim to none.

 

I held up publication of two caches yesterday because they were 527 feet apart, and hidden by the same owner. If a new cache was hidden 527 feet from someone else's cache, I would gladly grant a one-time exception.

[+PlantAKiss]

Why does it matter if one person owns all the caches or it's a different person?

 

Oh and is "container" literal or does that mean any method for conveying coordinates? My interfering first stage is a magnetic with coords on it. Not a container if that matters.

Edited April 6, 2015 by PlantAKiss

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Why does it matter if one person owns all the caches or it's a different person?

 

Oh and is "container" literal or does that mean any method for conveying coordinates? My interfering first stage is a magnetic with coords on it. Not a container if that matters.

 

It is my understanding that a stage in a multi can be "physical" even if it is not a "container". In other words, if you place a rock with coordinates written on it at a specified location, that would still be considered a physical stage, but if you use some existing feature in order to "answer a questions" (for example, the date on a tombstone) that would be a "virtual" stage.

 

 

 

[+Bear and Ragged]

Why does it matter if one person owns all the caches or it's a different person?

 

Oh and is "container" literal or does that mean any method for conveying coordinates? My interfering first stage is a magnetic with coords on it. Not a container if that matters.

 

If you place something there, it's a physical stage.

 

If it's already there, eg a sign or plaque, it's a virtual stage.

[+CanadianRockies]

Why does it matter if one person owns all the caches or it's a different person?

I can think of a couple reasons.

 

First, if you own all the caches, then you should be aware of where each physical cache/stage is located. If someone else owns a puzzle or multi-cache that has a cache/stage that is too close to one of yours, then it is understandable how you might have been unaware of that problem and a bit of leniency might be granted.

 

Second, if you own all the caches, then it's more reasonable to expect you to move or archive the interfering cache/stage.

 

Oh and is "container" literal or does that mean any method for conveying coordinates? My interfering first stage is a magnetic with coords on it. Not a container if that matters.

A physical stage is anything you add to the existing environment. Adding a magnet, even though it doesn't have a container, is still a physical stage and subject to the proximity guidelines.

[knowschad]

Keystone, yes my questions are related to my previous question about the appeals process. I am trying everything possible to "save" a cache I worked hard on and I can't move it. Moving would ruin the reason for placing it there to begin with.

 

...

 

IS THERE HOPE? :-)

When the same account owns all the caches involved in a cache saturation conflict, the odds of an exception being made are slim to none.

 

I held up publication of two caches yesterday because they were 527 feet apart, and hidden by the same owner. If a new cache was hidden 527 feet from someone else's cache, I would gladly grant a one-time exception.

So, the cache owner could move each of his caches 6" in opposite directions to satisfy the requirements. How much difference would 6" (or 1', for that matter) make in the coordinates? 0.001? (yes, I know that it matters if we're talking about latitude or longitude, but still...)

 

Why does it matter if one person owns all the caches or it's a different person?

 

I'm guessing that, since they are both your caches, you can move one or the other or both. If one of the caches is owned by somebody else, you can't ask them to move theirs.

Edited April 6, 2015 by knowschad

[+PlantAKiss]

That's what I thought as far as my Stage goes. Keystone had just said "physical container" so that's why I asked if that was literal. I do not consider my first Stage virtual. It's not hints or clues. It's the coords to the next stage.

 

It's very defeating to try so hard to create a fun caching experience for people who like something a little different than tupperware under a log or LPCs, who like a nice walk in the woods, who like to learn about nature. Save for several feet of land, I threw away hours and hours and hours of time, thought, planning....money on container, camo, decent swag, nice FTF gifts, 15th find gift, gas on repeated trips to get it all worked out. All such a total waste. I had one cache exempted for exactly the same situation as I have now so I would never have placed it at all had I known there is NO flexibility as in the past. I understand there are THE RULES...but it seems silly (to me) to let a few feet of land stand in the way of a good hide and some good caching fun. I obviously would never have wasted the time, money and effort. Live and learn.

 

Maybe I'll let the cachers who have been waiting for this to get published go find it if they don't mind not being able to get a "smiley" out of it. I hate knowing the log book will remain empty.

 

Thanks for all the question answering. I'll know better next time what is important for placing a cache. I've definitely learned a lot (truly). Thanks all.

[+niraD]

So, the cache owner could move each of his caches 6" in opposite directions to satisfy the requirements. How much difference would 6" (or 1', for that matter) make in the coordinates? 0.001? (yes, I know that it matters if we're talking about latitude or longitude, but still...)

Half a foot is roughly 0.0001 minutes.

 

Changing the coordinates by 0.001 minutes changes the distance by roughly 5 feet.

[Pup Patrol]

Oh and is "container" literal or does that mean any method for conveying coordinates? My interfering first stage is a magnetic with coords on it. Not a container if that matters.

 

Not only is that explained very clearly, but I posted that definition in my previous post:

 

 

2) What is a virtual stage?

 

Oh, this is a nice easy one.

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache → Review Process: Hiding a Geocache

1.15. Stages and Additional Waypoints

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=72

 

I'll quote just a relevant snippet, but there is more there to read.

 

In May 2014, the geocache submission process was updated with a new look, feel and overall streamlining. Several key changes for stages and additional waypoints are:

 

Geocache stages are renamed:

 

Physical - You placed an item there, such as a container or a tag. This was formerly called "Stages of a Multicache". These locations must be 528 feet (161 meters) away from a physical stage of any other geocache.

 

Virtual - You did not place an item there. Examples: a park sign that has information needed to work out the coordinates for another stage or final container. This was formerly called "Question to Answer". These stages can be closer than 528 feet (161 meters) from another geocache.

 

 

The cache I mentioned was not a multi cache. It was a regular cache. That's why I was surprised I had to walk quite aways away by instruction from "GZ" to find the cache. In other words, cache not anywhere close to GZ. I still don't understand that.

 

That sounds like a cache owner trying to get around the saturation guideline.

 

A "Traditional" cache is found at the coordinates published at the top of the page.

 

Any further instructions means that the cache "needs maintenance" to correct the coordinates, or "Needs Archived" for going against the Guidelines.

 

 

B.

[+PlantAKiss]

Thank you. The instructions were clearly stated in the cache description and a reviewer published it. So I figured it must be a cache type "new" (to me) like a power trail.

[Pup Patrol]

Thank you. The instructions were clearly stated in the cache description and a reviewer published it. So I figured it must be a cache type "new" (to me) like a power trail.

 

The cache owner can completely change the description after it is published. The Reviewer would not know about it, unless he/she went to search for it him/herself after the description was changed.

 

That's one of the ways to get around the Guidelines.

 

A power trail is not a cache type at all. They do not get to circumvent the Guidelines.

 

For example, if a series of caches on a trail are all published as "Traditional" caches, then they all should be found at the published coordinates.

 

Nothing has changed that much.

 

 

B.

[Keystone]

People convert traditionals to offset caches for two primary reasons:

 

1. The Cache Owner was informed of an issue under the Cache Saturation guideline pre-publication, and "fixed" the problem by moving the coordinates 100 feet, waiting for the cache to be published, and then editing the description to add the offset.

 

2. The Cache Owner hears feedback from early finders that the coordinates are off, and "fixes" the issue by adding an offset to the cache description -- either because they know the offset will cause a guidelines issue, or because they don't know how to use the "update coordinates" log type.

 

In addition, it's possible that a reviewer could have published a traditional cache that had offset language embedded in the description pre-publication. This is especially likely if the offset is buried halfway down the cache description after a lengthy history of the town where the cache is hidden. Remember, many reviewers are dogs, and dogs have very short

 

OOOH! SQUIRREL!

[+narcissa]

Thank you. The instructions were clearly stated in the cache description and a reviewer published it. So I figured it must be a cache type "new" (to me) like a power trail.

 

We've had instances of this here. Sometimes people think it's a clever way to circumvent saturation issues (as mentioned). Others do it because correctly listing their cache as a multi will reduce traffic.

 

Neither of these reasons are in any way acceptable.

[+K13]

This experience is a great example of why many of us advise cache placers to read the Guidelines three times (or more) to avoid issues when placing a cache. The Guidelines tell you that anything you add to the environment is a stage of a multi-cache and must abide by the 528' rule.