D/T for Overnight Canoe Event

[+Yuma4]

I am looking at organizing a Over Night Canoe Down the Lower Colorado Event and am wondering what the D/T should be. Because it requires camping gear and a Canoe I am guessing a T of a 5. Their is no rapids in the area the trip/event will be but it has swift moving currents should you tip. You have to pack your gear on your canoe/Kayak and tack it with you. Would this type of event Justify a 5/5 ? I am debating between 3/5, 4/5, and 5/5.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Moun10Bike]

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

[+Yuma4]

Thank you

[Pup Patrol]

I am looking at organizing a Over Night Canoe Down the Lower Colorado Event and am wondering what the D/T should be. Because it requires camping gear and a Canoe I am guessing a T of a 5. Their is no rapids in the area the trip/event will be but it has swift moving currents should you tip. You have to pack your gear on your canoe/Kayak and tack it with you. Would this type of event Justify a 5/5 ? I am debating between 3/5, 4/5, and 5/5.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

I agree that the "T" should be a 5.

 

How difficult will it be to find the cache once you're there? That will determine what the "D" rating should be.

 

1.10. Ratings for Difficulty and Terrain

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=82

 

6.1. What does D/T mean? Can I change it?

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=398

 

D/T rating system questionnaire, unfortunately doesn't take canoeing/paddling caches into consideration:

http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

 

edit: LOL, I didn't read the "event" part of the equation. D'oh

 

 

B.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Pup Patrol

[+Yuma4]

Its an event so its not for the sole purpose of caching There happens to be several caches along the canoe rout that range from 1/1 to 3/4. A few are canoe in only. The camping spot will take a little strength to get to as you either portage 100 yards and then canoe down a tributary (Hope my vocab is correct) or as you go down the river, at one point you have to make a 180 degree turn around a peninsula and then paddle upstream against the current until you hit the secondary stream/tributary with little to no current.

 

Sorry Pup, I didn't see you edit your post to account for the Event part of my original post...

Edited December 11, 2013 by jakeyuma

[+Viajero Perdido]

Personally, I'd go D=3 or so, because you'll need some skill to operate a canoe. And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Personally, I'd go D=3 or so, because you'll need some skill to operate a canoe. And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

 

This comes up fairly often and my interpretation is that the Difficulty rating should reflect how hard it is to find a cache once you've reached ground zero. The fact that it requires skill to operate a canoe is related to the terrain (getting to ground zero), not how hard it is to find the cache (or event, in this case) once you've reached ground zero. The T5 rating is already mandated as it would require special equipment, and IMHO, if special skills are also involved they should be described in the cache description. I know a lot of people don't agree, but increasing the D rating, because the navigating to GZ is "difficult" is misleading, but also fairly common as cache owners like to claim they own a D5/T5 cache.

 

[+Yuma4]

So, If I made the camp site GZ and the launch point for the canoes as a Waypoint, the difficulty to get to GZ would be more difficult and justify a slightly higher Difficulty Rating? I am not looking for a 5/5 I just want a rating so when people take a quick look they know this is more than the typical Event, although the name should serve the same purpose.

[+CanadianRockies]

And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

 

The T5 rating is already mandated as it would require special equipment...

I just want to make it clear that there are no rules or mandatory requirements that every canoe cache/event has to receive a T5 rating.

 

The guidelines recommend that, "One is the easiest. Five is the hardest." They suggest that 5 stars be assigned for "extremely challenging terrain." For example, for a cache that "[r]equires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult." (Emphasis added.)

 

Those guidelines make it clear that these are "suggested definitions of ratings" and that "these are simply suggested ratings." (Emphasis in original.)

 

If I hid a cache on an island that wasn't extremely difficult to reach (by boat or otherwise), then I wouldn't assign it a T5 rating.

 

There happens to be several caches along the canoe rout that range from 1/1 to 3/4. A few are canoe in only.

Based on these canoe-in-only caches, it doesn't appear that this is an especially difficult stretch of river to navigate. I probably would assign this event a 1/4 rating...at most.

[+niraD]

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

The fact that it requires skill to operate a canoe is related to the terrain (getting to ground zero), not how hard it is to find the cache (or event, in this case) once you've reached ground zero.

+1

 

My experience is that it's usually extremely easy to find the event if you're at the right location at the right time. A difficulty rating of 1.5 would be generous, and a difficulty rating of 1 is more likely.

 

The "difficulty to get to GZ" is the terrain rating. From your description of the event, the terrain rating should be 5.

[+CanadianRockies]

So, If I made the camp site GZ and the launch point for the canoes as a Waypoint, the difficulty to get to GZ would be more difficult and justify a slightly higher Difficulty Rating? I am not looking for a 5/5 I just want a rating so when people take a quick look they know this is more than the typical Event, although the name should serve the same purpose.

The challenge of getting from the launch point to GZ is what most of us would factor into the Terrain Rating, and it wouldn't effect our Difficulty Rating at all.

 

Once one finally reaches GZ, how difficult is it to find the people at your event? That's what influences most people's Difficulty Ratings in these kinds of situations.

[+Yuma4]

Thank you, Sounds like the event should be a 1/5 based on discussion and looking at some of the caches along the route.

Edited December 11, 2013 by jakeyuma

[+Mudfrog]

Thank you, Sounds like the event should be a 1/5 based on discussion and looking at some of the caches along the route.

 

I'd go along with that,,

 

Unless you're gonna go ahead of everyone and set up the event in a spot where attendees would have to get out and look for you.

[+niraD]

Unless you're gonna go ahead of everyone and set up the event in a spot where attendees would have to get out and look for you.

Yeah, I have this image of a high-difficulty event held in a banquet hall with a secret entrance of some sort. You'd get to the posted coordinates and discover a blank wall. The challenge would be to find the hidden door in the blank wall. Or maybe it would be an elevator disguised as a phone booth. That would be a high-difficulty event, at least for the first person to discover the secret entrance.

 

And then we could discuss whether someone who was shown the secret entrance could "legitimately" log the event as attended...

[+NYPaddleCacher]

And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

 

The T5 rating is already mandated as it would require special equipment...

I just want to make it clear that there are no rules or mandatory requirements that every canoe cache/event has to receive a T5 rating.

 

The guidelines recommend that, "One is the easiest. Five is the hardest." They suggest that 5 stars be assigned for "extremely challenging terrain." For example, for a cache that "[r]equires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult." (Emphasis added.)

 

Those guidelines make it clear that these are "suggested definitions of ratings" and that "these are simply suggested ratings." (Emphasis in original.)

 

If I hid a cache on an island that wasn't extremely difficult to reach (by boat or otherwise), then I wouldn't assign it a T5 rating.

 

 

I know that there are caches on islands that can be found without using a boat (requires specialized equipment), but it seems to me that *if* a boat is required that the or in that guideline suggest that it should get a T5 rating even if it's not difficult. Either way, whether or not the terrain is difficult shouldn't impact the D rating.

 

 

 

[+CanadianRockies]

And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

 

The T5 rating is already mandated as it would require special equipment...

I just want to make it clear that there are no rules or mandatory requirements that every canoe cache/event has to receive a T5 rating.

 

The guidelines recommend that, "One is the easiest. Five is the hardest." They suggest that 5 stars be assigned for "extremely challenging terrain." For example, for a cache that "[r]equires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult." (Emphasis added.)

 

Those guidelines make it clear that these are "suggested definitions of ratings" and that "these are simply suggested ratings." (Emphasis in original.)

 

If I hid a cache on an island that wasn't extremely difficult to reach (by boat or otherwise), then I wouldn't assign it a T5 rating.

 

I know that there are caches on islands that can be found without using a boat (requires specialized equipment), but it seems to me that *if* a boat is required that the or in that guideline suggest that it should get a T5 rating even if it's not difficult.

Sorry. I should have just bolded the "otherwise" portion of those guidelines.

 

The rating guidelines suggest the terrain stars be used to rate how hard it is to reach GZ, with one star for the easiest and five stars for the hardest. The heading for their 5-star terrain suggestion is labeled "extremely challenging terrain." That's why I use Terrain Ratings to rate how hard it is to reach GZ. I use attributes and the cache description to indicate when special equipment is advisable.

[+Corfman Clan]

I am looking at organizing a Over Night Canoe Down the Lower Colorado Event and am wondering what the D/T should be. Because it requires camping gear and a Canoe I am guessing a T of a 5. Their is no rapids in the area the trip/event will be but it has swift moving currents should you tip. You have to pack your gear on your canoe/Kayak and tack it with you. Would this type of event Justify a 5/5 ? I am debating between 3/5, 4/5, and 5/5.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

How about a hint on where and when? Lower Colorado covers a lot of distance. I'd be interested and if this is published in CA then I might easily miss it since I live in AZ.

[+Mudfrog]

And T=5 of course, because of the special-equipment rule.

 

The T5 rating is already mandated as it would require special equipment...

I just want to make it clear that there are no rules or mandatory requirements that every canoe cache/event has to receive a T5 rating.

 

The guidelines recommend that, "One is the easiest. Five is the hardest." They suggest that 5 stars be assigned for "extremely challenging terrain." For example, for a cache that "[r]equires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult." (Emphasis added.)

 

Those guidelines make it clear that these are "suggested definitions of ratings" and that "these are simply suggested ratings." (Emphasis in original.)

 

If I hid a cache on an island that wasn't extremely difficult to reach (by boat or otherwise), then I wouldn't assign it a T5 rating.

 

There happens to be several caches along the canoe rout that range from 1/1 to 3/4. A few are canoe in only.

Based on these canoe-in-only caches, it doesn't appear that this is an especially difficult stretch of river to navigate. I probably would assign this event a 1/4 rating...at most.

 

Imo, a boat doesn't really fall into the category of "specialized equipment". However, our reviewer is pretty adamant about us using the number 5 for terrain if a boat of some sort is needed to reach a cache. He's kicked back a cache or two of mine when i tried to use lower. Sounds like the OP's event is on the water where a yak/canoe/boat is needed, so as per our reviewer, it would need to be listed as a T5.

[+Yuma4]

I am looking at organizing a Over Night Canoe Down the Lower Colorado Event and am wondering what the D/T should be. Because it requires camping gear and a Canoe I am guessing a T of a 5. Their is no rapids in the area the trip/event will be but it has swift moving currents should you tip. You have to pack your gear on your canoe/Kayak and tack it with you. Would this type of event Justify a 5/5 ? I am debating between 3/5, 4/5, and 5/5.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

How about a hint on where and when? Lower Colorado covers a lot of distance. I'd be interested and if this is published in CA then I might easily miss it since I live in AZ.

 

I am looking at doing this event in the Spring/Summer when it is a little warmer down here. March/April would be Ideal but Also thinking June/July (very Hot though). We will Launch into the Colorado River in Blythe, Camp at one of the Boat In Tent areas along the route, and Finish the trip at the Imperial Dam. I would like to make it all the way to Yuma to take out but it is treacherous around the Imperial Dam and I haven't researched how long a portage would be. Total Trip will be around 76 miles. Rivers avg current is 5 mph.

 

Currently I am helping Organize the Yuma Mega Event #11 GC47GKW http://coord.info/GC47GKW Once that is well on its way I will organize the Colorado Canoe Trip.

Edited December 12, 2013 by jakeyuma

[+briansnat]

Imo, a boat doesn't really fall into the category of "specialized equipment". However, our reviewer is pretty adamant about us using the number 5 for terrain if a boat of some sort is needed to reach a cache. He's kicked back a cache or two of mine when i tried to use lower. Sounds like the OP's event is on the water where a yak/canoe/boat is needed, so as per our reviewer, it would need to be listed as a T5.

 

I'd have to say your reviewer is right. A boat is not something that most geocachers have and boats also take specialized skills to use. If you've ever seen someone in a canoe, kayak or rowboat for the first time, its obvious that operating one is a specialized skill. Fairly easy to learn sure, but not a skill that most people would possess.

[+wimseyguy]

Unless you're gonna go ahead of everyone and set up the event in a spot where attendees would have to get out and look for you.

Yeah, I have this image of a high-difficulty event held in a banquet hall with a secret entrance of some sort. You'd get to the posted coordinates and discover a blank wall. The challenge would be to find the hidden door in the blank wall. Or maybe it would be an elevator disguised as a phone booth. That would be a high-difficulty event, at least for the first person to discover the secret entrance.

 

And then we could discuss whether someone who was shown the secret entrance could "legitimately" log the event as attended...

 

Your example reminds me of a restaurant we once went to in Carmel IN called Illusions. Sort of like a restaurant with comedy club attached except magic acts instead of comedy. To get in you had to figure out that removing Excalibur from the rock wall in the entry grotto opened the passage into the business. The waitstaff presented menus printed on silk handkerchiefs removed from an 'empty' cloth bag. And during dessert you got a table-side performance. Our magician managed to remove my father in law's watch and pin it inside his jacket.

 

Back OT I agree with those who have replied 1/5. Sounds like a fun and different event. We've had several kayak events around here, but nothing like this.

[JASTA 11]

This comes up fairly often and my interpretation is that the Difficulty rating should reflect how hard it is to find a cache once you've reached ground zero.

 

+1

 

Once at the posted coordinates, how hard is it to find the event?

 

Some folks may have a more difficult time paddling a canoe than others, but that's not where the difficulty is represented in the rating.

 

Go with a 1/5.

[+niraD]

Your example reminds me of a restaurant we once went to in Carmel IN called Illusions. Sort of like a restaurant with comedy club attached except magic acts instead of comedy. To get in you had to figure out that removing Excalibur from the rock wall in the entry grotto opened the passage into the business. The waitstaff presented menus printed on silk handkerchiefs removed from an 'empty' cloth bag. And during dessert you got a table-side performance. Our magician managed to remove my father in law's watch and pin it inside his jacket.

Oooh... that sounds fun. Probably not the kind of place I'd eat every night, but a lot of fun.

 

And yes, the secret entryway is exactly what I had in mind for an event with a difficulty rating higher than 1.

[+Fugads]

I am looking at organizing a Over Night Canoe Down the Lower Colorado Event and am wondering what the D/T should be. Because it requires camping gear and a Canoe I am guessing a T of a 5. Their is no rapids in the area the trip/event will be but it has swift moving currents should you tip. You have to pack your gear on your canoe/Kayak and tack it with you. Would this type of event Justify a 5/5 ? I am debating between 3/5, 4/5, and 5/5.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

 

Despite the overwhelming consensus that the event is a Difficulty of 1, my personal thoughts is that this event could be rated differently. But that might depend on how you actually enforce logging an "attend". If someone needs to be with the group for the entire trip, doing the canoeing, camping etc... I can definitely see how it would merit a difficulty of 4, corresponding to the GS guideline:

Difficult

A real challenge for the experienced geocache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

However, if some hikers come and meet you at the camping spot, will you let them "attend"? What about those that see you off at launch, or meet you at the end?

 

I may open up a new topic, but I am curious about what people think is an appropriate D rating for events, and what is acceptable for events that would merit a D rating >1? Moun10bike's post seems to indicate a common sentiment, that if you can show up somewhere and meet other cachers, than it is a 1D. But that is also the very definition of an event. There was one example given above that might not be treated as D1 by Moun10bike's standards:

... a restaurant we once went to in Carmel IN called Illusions. Sort of like a restaurant with comedy club attached except magic acts instead of comedy. To get in you had to figure out that removing Excalibur from the rock wall in the entry grotto opened the passage into the business. The waitstaff presented menus printed on silk handkerchiefs removed from an 'empty' cloth bag. And during dessert you got a table-side performance. Our magician managed to remove my father in law's watch and pin it inside his jacket.

If you mention on the event listing how to get in, is it still a D1? If you don't mention how to get in, then what difficulty is it? Running a quick PQ on events around me,there are just as many D1.5 events as D1, and there are also a couple events in the D2-3 range. Based on this (and looking at some of those events), I would guess that not everyone ascribes to the "Moun10bike event rating theory", despite the overwhelming support here in the Forum.

 

PS Terrain rating seems to be much more cut and dry, even for events.

[+niraD]

Despite the overwhelming consensus that the event is a Difficulty of 1, my personal thoughts is that this event could be rated differently. But that might depend on how you actually enforce logging an "attend". If someone needs to be with the group for the entire trip, doing the canoeing, camping etc...

Keep in mind the guidelines for a Camping Event, specifically the parts about non-camping geocachers being allowed to log the event.

 

Running a quick PQ on events around me,there are just as many D1.5 events as D1, and there are also a couple events in the D2-3 range. Based on this (and looking at some of those events), I would guess that not everyone ascribes to the "Moun10bike event rating theory", despite the overwhelming support here in the Forum.

Yeah, I attended a flashmob event in a local shopping center that was rated D1.5/T4.5. I wouldn't put much stock in the difficulty or terrain ratings of the listings for events around me.

[+Yuma4]

Despite the overwhelming consensus that the event is a Difficulty of 1, my personal thoughts is that this event could be rated differently. But that might depend on how you actually enforce logging an "attend". If someone needs to be with the group for the entire trip, doing the canoeing, camping etc...

Keep in mind the guidelines for a Camping Event, specifically the parts about non-camping geocachers being allowed to log the event.

 

Running a quick PQ on events around me,there are just as many D1.5 events as D1, and there are also a couple events in the D2-3 range. Based on this (and looking at some of those events), I would guess that not everyone ascribes to the "Moun10bike event rating theory", despite the overwhelming support here in the Forum.

Yeah, I attended a flashmob event in a local shopping center that was rated D1.5/T4.5. I wouldn't put much stock in the difficulty or terrain ratings of the listings for events around me.

 

This is still in the planning phase. I am leaning towards having a way point at the launch point, GZ will be at the Campground/State Park where there will mostlikely be a campfire type meet and greet. Then a way point at the end of the trip marking where the canoes/kayaks get taken out. The kink will be the day use fee. Its a very small fee but the area is well worth the visit.

[+CanadianRockies]

Despite the overwhelming consensus that the event is a Difficulty of 1, my personal thoughts is that this event could be rated differently. But that might depend on how you actually enforce logging an "attend". If someone needs to be with the group for the entire trip, doing the canoeing, camping etc... I can definitely see how it would merit a difficulty of 4...

I've never been to an event where a person had to "attend" for more than a few seconds. (Fortunately, most attendees stay longer.) If you come, sign the log book, and leave, then there's really not much the host can do about it. Actually, Groundspeak says you don't even have to sign the log book.

[+WarNinjas]

If you have to stay overnight then I think that takes some planning and could be difficult. I would definitely say over a 1. I know it would be a 3-4 or even a 5 for me to make that commitment.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If you have to stay overnight then I think that takes some planning and could be difficult. I would definitely say over a 1. I know it would be a 3-4 or even a 5 for me to make that commitment.

 

You're still talking about the effort it takes to get to ground zero, which would be reflected in the terrain rating. Although the nature of a trail which takes someone from point A to point B could be described as easy to extremely difficult, the fact that it might be at the high range doesn't mean that you should apply that description to the difficulty rating.

 

 

[+Glenn]

Unless you're gonna go ahead of everyone and set up the event in a spot where attendees would have to get out and look for you.

Yeah, I have this image of a high-difficulty event held in a banquet hall with a secret entrance of some sort. You'd get to the posted coordinates and discover a blank wall. The challenge would be to find the hidden door in the blank wall. Or maybe it would be an elevator disguised as a phone booth. That would be a high-difficulty event, at least for the first person to discover the secret entrance.

 

And then we could discuss whether someone who was shown the secret entrance could "legitimately" log the event as attended...

 

That sounds like the Tavern Law in Seattle. It has a "secret" lounge upstairs. You use a "phone" down stairs to request access through a secret door. There are one-way mirrors were petrons upstairs in the speakeasy can keep an eye what's going on downstairs in the bar. Now that I think about it, it would make a cool "high" difficulty event cache. I wonder if anyone has done this yet at the Tavern Law.

[+WarNinjas]

If you have to stay overnight then I think that takes some planning and could be difficult. I would definitely say over a 1. I know it would be a 3-4 or even a 5 for me to make that commitment.

 

You're still talking about the effort it takes to get to ground zero, which would be reflected in the terrain rating. Although the nature of a trail which takes someone from point A to point B could be described as easy to extremely difficult, the fact that it might be at the high range doesn't mean that you should apply that description to the difficulty rating.

I was going to argue but I guess you are right. I was thinking about it a different way.

[+Fugads]

So just for grins, I tried to use the Geocache Rating System provided by GS. I know someone already mentioned that it is not geared towards paddling caches, but it is what is available to use so let's see what it spits out.

1. Is an overnight stay likely? Certainly is.
   
2. What is the length of the hike?Length of paddle was stated as 76 miles. Sure it's paddling not hiking, and going with the flow, but it's still pretty far. So we'll call this >10 miles.
   
3. What is the trail like? So it's a river, not a trail. But I'll give it some benefit of the doubt and say it's "well marked/defined".
   
4. Is the path bushy or overgrown? Not at all. I don't know the details of this river, but considering other large western rivers, it probably does not involve much pushing through dense brush.
   
5. What is the terrain elevation like? Basically flat.
   
6. How easy is it to find the cache? In plain sight or basically obvious. Hey, as Moun10bike already pointed out, unless the event attendees are hiding or invisible, how could it be otherwise?
   

And lo and behold, the cache gets rated a 1/5! I played around a little bit with the Clayjar system, and questions 1-5 only affect Terrain rating, whereas Difficulty is wholly defined by how you respond to question 6. And I now see why there can certainly be confusion as to consistently rating the Difficulty of a cache. The question states how difficult it is to find the cache, but some of the answers imply more than just the search at GZ. In fact the answer that corresponds to D5 reads,

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

It is easy to see how you can answer Question 5 with this response, since in order to attend the event requires specialized skills and serious physical challenge. Aha you say, isn't that the process of getting to the event's posted coordinates [assuming the Event coordinates are at the camp, and not the launch]? Once at the coordinates no physical effort or skills are needed. True. I would counter that any D5 puzzle or challenge is the same case. For many of these I have found, the actual cache is usually nothing special. The difficulty lies in figuring out the puzzle solution or jumping through the challenge qualification hoops. It appears to me that the issue with this rating system is that if you simply define difficulty by how hard it is to find the cache once at ground zero, then there isn't an effective way to include the difficulty of journey to that location, the "serious mental or physical challenge", except by the terrain rating.

 

[i know I'm starting to ramble, but here's one more thought]. If, as some would contend, the difficulty rating is only for when you arrive at Ground Zero, then an insanely hard puzzle leading to an easy out in the open ammo-box would rate a difficulty of 1. If it was also on an easy path only a short walk from a parking spot (and handicap accessible), it could be rated D/T of 1/1. I don't think anyone would support this rating for something with a nearly impossible puzzle, or even a moderately difficult puzzle. Thus I conclude that the question that begets the difficulty rating, "How easy is it to find the cache?", does not imply the difficulty of finding it once you "get to ground zero", but a more general case. "How easy is it to find the cache?" is your subjective take on how easy the cache is. For the event in question, a multi-day paddling event, you can honestly answer this question as Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. This would yield a D/T rating of 4/5.

 

This thought-experiment isn't really meant to say that 4/5 is more correct than 1/5, as already suggested. But it is pointing out what I see as an inconsistency with the Difficulty rating system, whereas some would have you believe it only applies once you are at ground zero. Or that for different types of caches like the Unknown type, people regularly make exceptions to the "ground zero" rule that they apply to other types of caches.

[+CanadianRockies]

It is easy to see how you can answer Question 5 with this response, since in order to attend the event requires specialized skills and serious physical challenge. Aha you say, isn't that the process of getting to the event's posted coordinates [assuming the Event coordinates are at the camp, and not the launch]? Once at the coordinates no physical effort or skills are needed. True. I would counter that any D5 puzzle or challenge is the same case. For many of these I have found, the actual cache is usually nothing special. The difficulty lies in figuring out the puzzle solution or jumping through the challenge qualification hoops. It appears to me that the issue with this rating system is that if you simply define difficulty by how hard it is to find the cache once at ground zero, then there isn't an effective way to include the difficulty of journey to that location, the "serious mental or physical challenge", except by the terrain rating.

Puzzle and challenge caches don't really fit very well, since their difficulty really involves something other than getting to GZ and finding the cache once you are at GZ. Their ratings had to be wedged into the existing two rating system.

 

I suspect people looked at the puzzle "difficulty" and thought that it intuitively made more sense to use the Difficulty Rating to describe it. I think it logically would have made more sense to associate the puzzle difficulty with the Terrain Rating, because part of the difficulty in reaching GZ is determining where GZ is.

 

If, as some would contend, the difficulty rating is only for when you arrive at Ground Zero, then an insanely hard puzzle leading to an easy out in the open ammo-box would rate a difficulty of 1. If it was also on an easy path only a short walk from a parking spot (and handicap accessible), it could be rated D/T of 1/1. I don't think anyone would support this rating for something with a nearly impossible puzzle, or even a moderately difficult puzzle.

Because people wanted to have a convenient way to filter out puzzles based on how hard they were to solve, they opted to use one of the Difficulty/Terrain Ratings, and they chose the Difficulty Rating. It isn't perfect, but it seems to work okay.

 

Thus I conclude that the question that begets the difficulty rating, "How easy is it to find the cache?", does not imply the difficulty of finding it once you "get to ground zero", but a more general case. "How easy is it to find the cache?" is your subjective take on how easy the cache is. For the event in question, a multi-day paddling event, you can honestly answer this question as Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. This would yield a D/T rating of 4/5.

Just because puzzle and challenge caches aren't a good fit with the rating system, that doesn't mean the rating system doesn't work fairly well for event caches. Terrain Rating = how hard it is go get to the cache/event. Difficulty Rating = how hard it is to find the cache/event once you get to GZ.

[+Fugads]

Puzzle and challenge caches don't really fit very well, since their difficulty really involves something other than getting to GZ and finding the cache once you are at GZ. Their ratings had to be wedged into the existing two rating system.

 

I suspect people looked at the puzzle "difficulty" and thought that it intuitively made more sense to use the Difficulty Rating to describe it. I think it logically would have made more sense to associate the puzzle difficulty with the Terrain Rating, because part of the difficulty in reaching GZ is determining where GZ is.

...

Just because puzzle and challenge caches aren't a good fit with the rating system, that doesn't mean the rating system doesn't work fairly well for event caches. Terrain Rating = how hard it is go get to the cache/event. Difficulty Rating = how hard it is to find the cache/event once you get to GZ.

Interesting statements here about how you do not consider Unknown-type caches to fit with the current cache rating system. It didn't really occur to me before but makes perfect sense now. The cache rating system may have been designed to fit for traditional caches, which make up more than 75% of all currently active geocaches (I do not know the actual history here though).

Image courtesy of project-gc

 

As people try to use this system for other cache types, for which it was not really designed, there are ambiguities. The Unknown cache type is the 2nd most common, and as you state, does not "fit very well" with this cache rating system (Difficulty ~ GZ search). I see your point that Event type caches might fit this rating system, since they are similar to Traditional caches in that they are at the posted coordinates. However, I feel that the differences between Events and Traditional caches are enough where that system really doesn't work. For a Traditional, you are looking for an object, for an Event you are looking to form a Group of Cachers and do something together. Whereas making an object difficult to find has some purpose, making it difficult to form a group of cachers at a specific time and place seems nonsensical (but getting together for a challenging activity makes sense). Which is why I tend to think that this system is not a good fit for Events (and may not be for Letterboxes, Multis, Whereigos either). I started a different thread on that though.

 

Considering your admission that the rating system as you understand it doesn't work for Unknown cache types, what's to say that it may not be appropriate for other cache types as well? Personally, I am still leaning away from thinking that "Difficulty Rating = how hard it is to find the cache/event once you get to GZ". To quote the knowledge books,

In the end, that group [early Geocacher Forum debate people] came to a consensus of suggested definitions of ratings, which is the best they could do. Ultimately, you alone are the best judge for rating your geocache.

So despite several people in this thread agreeing that the overnight canoe Event could/should be rated 1/5, the CO can do otherwise if he feels it would be a better fit for his event. I for one would support a 4/5 rating for such an Event.

[+niraD]

In an ideal world, I'd like to have a 3-part rating system for caches:

Terrain - How hard is it to get to GZ?

Difficulty - How hard is it to find the container once you're at GZ?

Venture - What else is involved in completing the cache?

 

This third rating (which I'm hypothetically calling "venture" here) would reflect how hard it is to complete a challenge for a challenge cache, how hard it is to solve the puzzle(s) of a mystery/puzzle cache, how hard is it to retrieve a cache that is in plain sight but hard to access, and so on.

 

But in the meantime, I think the best compromise is to keep terrain as the physical challenge of the trip to GZ, and to use difficulty for the various mental challenges of finding the cache. People searching for low terrain ratings are looking for caches that are physically easy to reach. People searching for high terrain ratings are looking for physical challenges.

[Clan Riffster]

I for one would support a 4/5 rating for such an Event.

So would I, so long as that's what the owner chose to rate it at. There is so much ambiguity built into the ClayJar system, that I've stopped worrying about how others rate their listings. My advice when asked? Use the ClayJar system as a guideline, get your D/T as accurate as you can, based on how you interpret the available data, and let it go. Life is too short to stress over subjective standards.

[+Fugads]

In an ideal world, I'd like to have a 3-part rating system for caches:

Terrain - How hard is it to get to GZ?

Difficulty - How hard is it to find the container once you're at GZ?

Venture - What else is involved in completing the cache?

 

This third rating (which I'm hypothetically calling "venture" here) would reflect how hard it is to complete a challenge for a challenge cache, how hard it is to solve the puzzle(s) of a mystery/puzzle cache, how hard is it to retrieve a cache that is in plain sight but hard to access, and so on.

 

But in the meantime, I think the best compromise is to keep terrain as the physical challenge of the trip to GZ, and to use difficulty for the various mental challenges of finding the cache. People searching for low terrain ratings are looking for caches that are physically easy to reach. People searching for high terrain ratings are looking for physical challenges.

Yeah, a more comprehensive rating system might be cool... or it might be a head-ache. I see your 3-tiered approach and bump you! My own limited caching experience clumps caching experiences/challenges into 4 general categories: 1)Physical Challenge 2) Mental Challenge 3) Evil hides 4)Statistical Challenge. I tend to enjoy the physical and mental challenge "difficulties" but get pretty turned-off of the evil hide difficulties, the ones where you know you are in the right place, but you just can't find that stinking little bugger. The statistical challenge are those that are difficult for none of the first 3 reasons, but instead require meeting some statistical goal to complete. I have occasionally been sucked into tackling some of these, but tend not to give them too much attention.

 

Kind of a non-sequitor but I also draw from my experience as a climber. In rock-climbing, there is a rating for how technically difficult the climb is (5.0 through 5.15, but open ended). And there is also a Roman Numeral Grade that is applied to indicate how committing a climb is. Grade I and II are basically drive-ups or part-day excursions. Grade III requires the better part of a day, Grade IV all day and long approaches in remote regions, etc... For climbers this gets at two very different aspects of what makes a climb challenging, and merits a distinction in the rating system. I think I find myself gravitating to this approach in cache rating as well where the Terrain Rating indicates the Technical Difficulty of the physical challenge, and the difficulty rating is influenced by the commitment required to complete the cache, whether by physical hardships (duration/remoteness) or mental (days spent cracking the code). And just reading the D/T guidelines, I feel that it leaves it open to this interpretation, which is why a multi-day canoe event could be rated 4/5.

 

I'm tempted to start a new thread titled "Can the D/T rating system be improved?" to get other thoughts and opinions on the matter. I am already thinking on niraD's "ideal" 3 categories for a rating system. I would tweak it to be:

Physical Challenge - Physical skill needed to reach cache. I'm willing to include both the technical and commitment aspects into one, as many people already do for Terrain rating.

Hide Challenge - How hard is it to find the container once you're at GZ? basically, how some people above have interpreted the Difficulty rating, as the difficulty once at GZ of finding the cache.

Mental Challenge - How much brainpower needed to complete the cache. Puzzles, ciphers, problem solving etc...

and possibly one more

Statistical Challenge - All those challenge caches that require some kind of statistical feat. There are loads in my area, and they don't really fall into any of the above three categories.

As things sit now, my experience is that those last three categories are combined into the current "Difficulty" rating. A high D rated cache is bound to be very challenging either through the hide, mental efforts, or impossible stats. I can't say I am advocating for such an approach, having two cache rating categories is confusing enough for people, let alone 4. Perhaps the latter 3 aspects could be combined into a "commitment challenge" rating, how much do you need to commit yourself to get this cache?

 

PS: I did look for the old 2001 Forums where the D/T rating system was debated, but did not find anything to my satisfaction. There were a few links though that I was unable to follow (led to blank pages for me) so maybe those discussion boards are no longer available? Would appreciate if someone could post links to these old discussions.

[+Fugads]

I for one would support a 4/5 rating for such an Event.

So would I, so long as that's what the owner chose to rate it at. There is so much ambiguity built into the ClayJar system, that I've stopped worrying about how others rate their listings. My advice when asked? Use the ClayJar system as a guideline, get your D/T as accurate as you can, based on how you interpret the available data, and let it go. Life is too short to stress over subjective standards.

Excellent point, I gotta take a chill pill . No, what is driving me to keep thinking/responding on this thread is that the OP was considering a 3/5, 4/5, 5/5, and came to the forums for additional guidance. He was then suggested 1/5 by several people and changed his original thinking about how to rate what is surely a challenging event. Nothing wrong with getting your mind changed by well informed advice/opinions, but it sparked some debate in my mind. I felt like saying, "Hey, you don't need to change how you were going to rate this event just because a couple regular forum guys would rate it a certain way. Stick to your guns man, nothing wrong with your approach/rating." But then I started thinking, what if there is something wrong...and my way of thinking is flawed. So I started examining it more closely, and have even opened up another topic. It's just a game, and yet, we can't help but get wrapped up in it sometimes...

Edited December 16, 2013 by Fugads