Micro Cache Legal

[+kaztig]

Hi, I have placed a micro cache which is essential a bottle top with a small container underneath that contains a log. Basically you push the container into soft earth - so I am not burying it. One of my visitors thinks that this may not be allowed. Does anyone have a view on this?

[+T.D.M.22]

Hi, I have placed a micro cache which is essential a bottle top with a small container underneath that contains a log. Basically you push the container into soft earth - so I am not burying it. One of my visitors thinks that this may not be allowed. Does anyone have a view on this?

 

If you made a hole it's considered buried. There was no hole before, but there is now. And that is the intent of the rule. It doesn't matter if it's completely underground, or if you used a shovel, a stick, or the container itself-of you remove the container the hole is still there.

 

This may not seem a big deal but when this type of cache is found by a land owner they may think it's ok for bigger caches to be hidden this way as well. They don't want big holes and people digging on their land so they disallow all geocaches. Words gets out the geocachers dig up the ground and then we get a bad reputation.

 

The other example is a new cacher sees it's buried and buries one of their own, but a bigger cache.

Even if you have permission to bury it by the land owner, a newb might think it's ok and do bury one without permission.Then we have the same problem as above.

 

I'd also see this cache as likely to go missing if it is anywhere near where muggles might be. They might think it's trash and toss it out. Or It could easily get buried-someone walks on it and presses it into the ground, dirt from their shoes covers it. It's not seen again.

 

Overall IMO I think the cache is a bad idea.

Edited June 4, 2013 by T.D.M.22

[+kunarion]

Hi, I have placed a micro cache which is essential a bottle top with a small container underneath that contains a log. Basically you push the container into soft earth - so I am not burying it.

That needs to be much more secure. Will finders press it back into the same spot in the soft earth? What happens when it rains? Can you find a suitable spot between tree roots, or between rocks?

 

I've only found one tube like that (centrifuge tube with a coin glued to the cap). It was OK when I found it. But after a few finds, it migrated around the dirt, due to the previous holes being no good anymore for holding a container. It only lasted six months.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

The guidelines regarding just such a maneuver:

Geocaches are never buried, neither partially nor completely.

 

If one has to dig or create a hole in the ground when placing or finding a geocache, it is not allowed.

 

If you "pushed" it into the ground, it is against the guidelines.

 

Not unlike a recent episode of driving stakes into the ground.

[+kunarion]

I'd also see this cache as likely to go missing if it is anywhere near where muggles might be. They might think it's trash and toss it out. Or It could easily get buried-someone walks on it and presses it into the ground, dirt from their shoes covers it. It's not seen again.

 

Overall IMO I think the cache is a bad idea.

Yes. The cache needs to say more than “hey, look, I'm trash.” It can be on the ground, but best in a place where it's not discarded by a cleaning crew, or as mentioned, trampled into the “soft earth” by passers-by. So I think there's a balance. Place it where most people overlook it, but where it kind of stands out to cachers.

 

One local similar cache is in a tube at ground level, but held among branches in a bush. So there's no need for pressing it into dirt, and it has a spot where it belongs. It's best if cachers can tell where it goes, and that it's easy to put back. And it should be in a spot where cachers have the feeling that it was a worthwhile visit. Otherwise, all there is to log about is the container.

Edited June 4, 2013 by kunarion

[Moun10Bike]

Since this is not a bug report, I'm moving this thread to the general discussion forum.

[+Don_J]

I have found over a dozen of these and they are no big deal. The lugs on my boots pushed a deeper hole in the dirt than any of the caches did. Some of these responses make it sound like they think you used a backhoe to hide your bottle cap cache.

 

If we tried hard enough, we could probably find a subtle guideline violation for pretty much every cache out there. Sometimes I think that that is the goal for a lot of the people on these forums.

 

Personally, I don't like these, or other caches that look like trash. I know that people that have hidden them around here have had trouble keeping them in place. Cachers tend to simply kick them away, not realizing that it was the cache. I guessing that the person complaining about your cache doesn't like them either so he's trying to make it a guideline issue.

[+lamoracke]

As far as the Seattle area goes, have seen many many of these bottlecap hides and not once have I seen them archived for burying guidelines.

[+kaztig]

Lots of great replies - thank you

 

I have put the cache behind a pole in order for it to not be accidentally trodden in. I just wanted to give a sneaky cache for a bit of fun. On my logs all the other responses have been really positive! Fellow catchers have enjoyed the challenge and I even had a fav vote

 

Just a little twist to CITO

[+J Grouchy]

There is a gray area here. I recently found a cache that involved a cache container hidden under a PVC pipe stub set on the ground, made to appear as if the pipe was coming out of the ground. Over time the pipe has sort of created an impression in the ground so that now there is almost an inch of dirt all around it. This is naturally occuring as rain, wind and cachers have sort of caused this sinking action...but could it be perceived as "creating a hole in the ground"?

 

Following on that...what if there actually IS a pipe set in the ground already and a cache is placed within it. Perhaps it could be perceived by cachers or muggles as having been deliberately "buried"...even if the hole was already there. Then from that we get into further debates about caches placed behind loose stones or bricks in a wall (did the CO remove that stone or was it already loose?), or other such openings of opportunity. Many of these hides may be seen by someone finding it as being a spot possibly being created by the cache hider even if in reality it was already there. It's not always cut-and-dried like finding a fake sprinkler head pushed into the ground. One cache I found was Lock and Lock set into a naturally occuring depression in the ground...or was it naturally occuring? How could I possibly know? I suppose it's academic to bring all that up...but once the "buried cache" discussion gets started, there is always the nagging question about the million and one different exceptions or questionable circumstances that arises.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

As far as the Seattle area goes, have seen many many of these bottlecap hides and not once have I seen them archived for burying guidelines.

 

While driving down an interstate with a 65mph speed limit I often see people driving 15-20mph over the speed limit. Since they're not on the side of road getting a ticket, it must be okay to drive 15-20 miles over the speed limit.

 

 

[+tozainamboku]

Sadly the no bury guideline has become the poster child for guidelines creep. Originally it was basically designed to deal with park manager's concerns that geocachers were buried treasure hunters who were about to descend on their parks with shovels and start digging up everything looking for a cache. In fact in the early days it was often argued that you could dig in the ground to hide a cache so long as it was partly exposed so that finders would not be digging everywhere.

 

Of course, some park managers still object to people digging up the ground to hide a cache. In many places there were issues with irrigation systems or underground cables that were of concern.

 

The guideline changed to no digging with a sharp or pointy object either to hide or find a cache. Moving a bit soil with your hands or pushing a stake in the ground were not consider violation of the guideline.

 

I'm not at all certain why TPTB changed the guideline to no making holes. Perhaps there was an incident that was discussed here that I missed. Since TPTB don't seem to want to provide the rationale behind these changes, we are left to speculate they might mean.

 

I would speculate is the problem that led to the change was not pushing bison tubes into soft soil. More likely it was a case of someone driving a stake or post deep into the ground - perhaps deep enough to cause concern about the irrigation system or underground cables. TPTB try to keep the guidlines short and clear so instead of the saying you can't create a hole more than 4 inches in circumference or more than 6 inches deep, they simply say "don't make holes". I would think that the guideline was not meant to outlaw bottle top caches.

[+Wadcutter]

As far as the Seattle area goes, have seen many many of these bottlecap hides and not once have I seen them archived for burying guidelines.

 

While driving down an interstate with a 65mph speed limit I often see people driving 15-20mph over the speed limit. Since they're not on the side of road getting a ticket, it must be okay to drive 15-20 miles over the speed limit.

Then go write him a ticket.

After spending 42 years in law enforcement at the state and federal level and teaching criminal law for many many years I don't recall ready any federal or state statute that says violating a geocaching guideline is the same as violating a statute.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Wadcutter

[+Manville Possum]

Cram it in an ant hill.

[+Don_J]

Cram it in an ant hill.

 

But that would kill the ants, whereas pushing it into the ground would aerate the soil, thus making it more fertile.

[+kissguy&frannyfru]

Hi, I have placed a micro cache which is essential a bottle top with a small container underneath that contains a log. Basically you push the container into soft earth - so I am not burying it. One of my visitors thinks that this may not be allowed. Does anyone have a view on this?

I have found several like this. I see no problem with them. Some folks will find a problem with anything. Geeshh it's just a 1 inch tube pushed in the dirt for cryin out loud.

[4wheelin_fool]

As far as the Seattle area goes, have seen many many of these bottlecap hides and not once have I seen them archived for burying guidelines.

 

While driving down an interstate with a 65mph speed limit I often see people driving 15-20mph over the speed limit. Since they're not on the side of road getting a ticket, it must be okay to drive 15-20 miles over the speed limit.

Then go write him a ticket.

After spending 42 years in law enforcement at the state and federal level and teaching criminal law for many many years I don't recall ready any federal or state statute that says violating a geocaching guideline is the same as violating a statute.

 

I'm sure that pushing a bison tube into the ground could be just as reckless as driving 85 mph depending on the chemicals ingested, but complaining about it is much more like getting a speeding ticket for doing 66 mph.

Edited June 5, 2013 by 4wheelin_fool

[+kunarion]

I have found several like this. I see no problem with them. Some folks will find a problem with anything. Geeshh it's just a 1 inch tube pushed in the dirt for cryin out loud.

Do they endure? If they're no longer viable after a couple of months, I see a problem. I bought some tiny centrifuge tubes and glued various items to the caps, but probably won't make caches of them. As someone once said, "it's just a 1 inch tube pushed in the dirt for cryin out loud".

Edited June 5, 2013 by kunarion

[+kissguy&frannyfru]

I have found several like this. I see no problem with them. Some folks will find a problem with anything. Geeshh it's just a 1 inch tube pushed in the dirt for cryin out loud.

Do they endure? If they're no longer viable after a couple of months, I see a problem. I bought some tiny centrifuge tubes and glued various items to the caps, but probably won't make caches of them. As someone once said, "it's just a 1 inch tube pushed in the dirt for cryin out loud".

There is one here locally that has been in place since 2007 and never been replaced,i would say it has endured.

Edited June 5, 2013 by mskissguy&frannyfru