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Misticme

Why is my cache being denied?

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So I am had a 2-step cache in a library. The first step kept getting stolen. So I inquired to Groundspeak if I could change it to a 1 step. I was advised by a representative to archive the old one and just create a new one. So I did. My local reviewer refused to approve it because it was in a building and it "didn't require a GPS component to find it" When I replied that in fact the coords I provided were for the exact shelf the cache was on, as opposed to any of the 100 other shelves in the building, he didn't care. I replied that I was in fact advised to do this by Groundspeak. Apparently he contacted them, because they wrote me a second time saying I couldn't do it anymore.... *after* they TOLD ME I COULD.

 

There is a 1 step cache in a bookstore 12 miles from me (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c0c9b2c1-de53-460a-9912-54d03b8f1f0e). Can anyone explain how a cache in a bookstore is different than a cahce in a library???

 

Cause the only difference I see is they are premium members and I'm not. I certainly don't want to think Groundspeak discriminates against non members, but I don't see any other reason.

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Well since the person you talked to from Groundspeak isn't here, and your reviewer probably isn't here, all we can do is speculate.

 

Anyway it say in the guidelines, just because a cache type or style has been approved in the past, doesn't mean it will be approved in the future. Best is to work with your reviewer.

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Make it a letterbox hybrid with the coordinates at the front door or walkway leading to it. Now the coords don't have to be for the exact site of the cache.

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Your reviewer will unarchive the original hide. You could think on a some to better secure/secret the first stage.

 

I'd guess that whoever told you to archive your cache and resubmit as a Traditional didn't take a look at the specifics of the hide. As general advice about multi-caches, archive & resubmit would be true. It's not true for library caches, as typically, once you take away stage coords, you take away gps use.

 

 

The TB hotel you linked to was published nearly 6 years ago. There have been numerous guideline revisions since.

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Make it a letterbox hybrid with the coordinates at the front door or walkway leading to it. Now the coords don't have to be for the exact site of the cache.

 

A letterbox hybrid is all about the stamp. If you make it a letterbox hybrid then you will need to work on purchasing or handcarving a stamp - perferably something that ties into your library theme. Offset caches are already covered by the Puzzle/Mystery category. Perhaps that would be the best route to take - make it a puzzle cache.

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The best route to take is a route that includes GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. Pure letterbox clues won't qualify. A puzzle leading directly to a library shelf won't qualify.

 

Re-read Isonzo Karst's post, for she speaks volumes of wisdom.

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Your reviewer will unarchive the original hide. You could think on a some to better secure/secret the first stage.

 

 

Yes, good idea. Keep it but make stage one less prone to theft.

 

Perhaps use a weather proof tag of some kind that you can discretely wire to something. I've seen metal plant tags used with coordinates (or in your case perhaps call number) pressed into the metal with a pen.

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I guess I dont understand how a GPS is not used. Is anyone going to search 100 bookcases? I dont think so. They might however look on the ONE shelf that the coords are. How is that not using GPS?

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I guess I dont understand how a GPS is not used. Is anyone going to search 100 bookcases? I dont think so. They might however look on the ONE shelf that the coords are. How is that not using GPS?

 

How are they going to get a satellite signal on their GPS units while indoors?

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Well I obviously got them to post the cache, soooo I guess the same way? And probably the same way every other indoor cache got them? It's right by a door and window.

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I guess I dont understand how a GPS is not used. Is anyone going to search 100 bookcases? I dont think so. They might however look on the ONE shelf that the coords are. How is that not using GPS?

How are they going to get a satellite signal on their GPS units while indoors?

^This

Trust me, you don't have the coordinates of the exact shelf. Even if you did, with the inherent inaccuracies of consumer-grade GPSrs, the seeker would only be able to narrow it down to a series of possible shelfs at best. In reality, most people won't be able to get a useful signal at all while inside. The only way to locate a cache in a library or other indoor area is with non-GPS methods. If the entire cache is simply that one stage in the library, there isn't the required GPS usage component.

 

Edit to add: I see you posted while I was typing. Even being near a window, it will depend on the configuration of the satellite constellation at any one time. If conditions aren't quite right, someone may be unable to get a good enough fix to locate it.

Edited by The A-Team

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Here's an idea-I visited a mystery cache. The posted co-ords took you to the front door of a library. Info on the cache page was something like "This book that was originally published in whatever year was made into a movie in whatever year, with actor ABC, and actress XYZ playing the lead roles. Check the reference section."

 

The cache was a hollow version of said book. the CO had worked with the library, purchased the book, and had the library put up an ID sticker and put it in reference, so no one could check it out, but it's still listed in the library's computer. It also happened to give kids a lesson on how to find books in the library. So work with your reviewer, and the library.

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To give you an idea of how it's done elsewhere, the most recent library cache I found was listed as a multi. You had to go to three locations and gather information like counting benches or getting a year off a plaque. You then used this information to build a call number which you could use to locate the specific book/container. There are no initial stages that can go missing, so it's a very robust method. Maybe you could do something like that?

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How are they going to get a satellite signal on their GPS units while indoors?
I've found a number of caches where there was no GPS reception at the cache location. It was still possible for the CO to obtain accurate coordinates for the cache using a GPS receiver. It was still possible for seekers to identify ground zero accurately using a GPS receiver. (Within the normal accuracy limitations of any consumer GPS receiver, of course.)

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Big glass buildings get just as good reception inside as most do outside in the big city with tall buildings around. I'm amazed at just how good a signal the modern Garmin high-sensitivity receivers are inside buildings.

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So I am had a 2-step cache in a library. The first step kept getting stolen. So I inquired to Groundspeak if I could change it to a 1 step. I was advised by a representative to archive the old one and just create a new one. So I did. My local reviewer refused to approve it because it was in a building and it "didn't require a GPS component to find it" When I replied that in fact the coords I provided were for the exact shelf the cache was on, as opposed to any of the 100 other shelves in the building, he didn't care. I replied that I was in fact advised to do this by Groundspeak. Apparently he contacted them, because they wrote me a second time saying I couldn't do it anymore.... *after* they TOLD ME I COULD.

 

There is a 1 step cache in a bookstore 12 miles from me (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=c0c9b2c1-de53-460a-9912-54d03b8f1f0e). Can anyone explain how a cache in a bookstore is different than a cahce in a library???

 

Cause the only difference I see is they are premium members and I'm not. I certainly don't want to think Groundspeak discriminates against non members, but I don't see any other reason.

 

It has nothing to do with membership and everything to do with the current guidelines. Your example was published six years ago using a different set of guidelines and was grandfathered in when the guidelines were changed. Presumably, if that cache owner were to archive their cache and resubmit it as a new cache, they would run up against the same set of hurdles you are facing.

 

Also, if you are going to be a cache hider, you'll need to pay attention to the guideline that says that no cache sets a precedence for any future cache. You have been given some really good examples for how you can re-establish the cache. Considering the circumstances, I'm sure that your reviewer would have no problem unarchiving it so that you can do so.

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There are two library caches that I'm familiar with.

 

One was published in 2011 and is one I've found. They used coordinates to get you to the building and then you had to solve the puzzle online to get the call number for the book in the reference section.

http://coord.info/GC2EEK3

 

Another was published in 2009 and I DNFed it. It had two stages, with the first stage giving the clue to find the cache inside the library.

http://coord.info/GC1Z9Y5

 

I think the first example would require less maintenance, but would require it being listed as a puzzle cache.

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I've done exactly 1 library cache, but I didn't know it was a library cache on my first attempt. The coordinates were actually at the front door of a museum that was adjacent to a library (though their doors were on opposite sides away from each other). I went to the coords and found myself at the door to the museum, but the description text didn't fit very well and there was no mention of paying a fee to access, which the museum required. I started going through old logs to find a lot of rather angry ones complaining about how they paid for access to the museum only to find out the cache is in the adjacent library. The coords were off by a couple hundred feet. I went to the library and found the cache in a back room. I put coordinates to the correct building and door in my log. The adopted CO posted a note about how everyone else had no problem finding the right building with the original coordinates. At any rate, I've had a bad taste for library caches ever since.

 

I guess the point was, that library cache only had the single waypoint at the entry and was listed as a traditional.

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I think the bigger annoyance here was that Groundspeak told the OP to archive and republish, and as such the archival went through, but the new publish did not. In theory, appealing the decision with the defense precisely that the Groundspeak contact said to go this route may be the best option. If that doesn't work, then ... well, try the other suggestions above.

 

Also, there was a recent library cache published in my area as a multi, where stage 1 was at the building corner outside, a micro container with coordinates inside the building. Other hints in the cache listing provided information to locate the book that was hollowed with the cache & log. The cache was placed with permission from the library, and even has the book listed in their local directory.

 

Just some ideas.

But yes, it does seem very cheap that an owner would be informed by TPTB to archive and republish, and yet be denied republish by a reviewer because of guidelines. That's a lack of communication, or a legitimate mistake that could/should be rectified.

 

Also, yeah, citing other similar caches as reasons to allow a publish is never a good idea. =P

Edited by thebruce0

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I am presently trying to place a Puzzle library cache. The Cache Title is the call number of a book in the library. It's a blank note book I purchased and pasted the call number to on its spine. It's in the reference section of the library. The posted co-ords are for the library itself. I have permission to place the cache from the library.

 

The idea, the co-ords bring you to the library [GPS use] then you must figure out from the description and the title what you're looking for - i.e the book.

 

The library is 3000 km from my home. I have not only the library's permission but the permission of the Territorial Government, it's "Community Librarian" who is a geocacher. They have offered to maintain it.

 

However, my reviewer first started by saying:

1) I was 30000 km away and couldn't maintain it it got wet [yes, I know, it's INSIDE]

2) You didn't need a GPS to find it

 

I replied, stating again,

1)it was inside and I had people maintaining it for me.

2) That you didn't know it was in the library until you arrived at GZ, via the posted co-ords. The description says to go to the posted co-ords, to stop, look, think, enter.

I also referred to a similar cache upon which I was basing it AS A MEANS OF FURTHER EXPLANATION of what I was trying to do. NOT as a "see, there's one already like it, why can't I have mine?" I'm fully aware that existence of past caches doesn't mean anything.

 

The reply back:

1) It didn't have a container, it was just a logbook

2) You don't have to use a GPS to get to a library.

Oh, and of course, "past geocaches don't mean anything" was shot back at me.

 

So, how is that for a reviewer "working with me"?

 

A container. . . yes, the guidelines and such mention a container. However a broader guideline also simply states "For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit". Regardless, how is a fake electrical plate with a piece of paper glued to it ANY different than a book cover, with pages inside it?

 

Missing the point on #2, or deliberately being obtuse. You don't know it's the library you're going to until you get there. . .

 

So, I went looking at the Guidelines and the "working with your reviewer" pages for guidance.

 

I found this:

Puzzle Caches - The cache page provides a puzzle to be solved to generate coordinates for the cache Now, if they'd quoted that, I'd agree. Or even said "you don't use the GPS to find the book".

 

I have yet to find anything specific that disallows "library" fake-book caches other than the above. It's a shame, really, that these now seem to be taboo (from all I've read on the forum pages) especially as the library system of the territory in which I was trying to place the "cache" was so keen.

 

Maybe at some point a National Library Association will contact Groundspeak and the rules will be changed.

 

Until then, I believe I'm SOL.

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Well, in my experience, this is how I see it....

 

1) It didn't have a container, it was just a logbook

 

Just a logbook doe snot a geocache make. The logbook must be in a container and the building does not count. If it was a fake book with a log of some kind inside, you woul dbe OK.

 

2) You don't have to use a GPS to get to a library.

 

If you pull up the coords on a map, you will most likely see that it is near a library. Your page says "enter" so that narrows down the options considerably. The GPS use requirement refers to the need for using the GPS to get as close as possible to either the cache or a place where you have to gather data, shoot a projection, solve a puzzle, or do something else to get you to the cache. Just going to the coords and going in somewhere won't cut it. You don't need a GPS for that. You will need to do something to make use of the GPS a must.

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I would argue that the logbook IS in a container. A very very large container. Like the size of a library. 😉

 

I would also argue that unless you specifically mention in the cache description that the cache is located a Yourtown Public Library, then you do in fact need a GPS to get to the location.

 

But then again I like to argue 😊

 

Agreed, just because a cache like this has received permission in the past is no guarantee that it will be approved today. That's clearly stated in the guidelines. I've found one exactly like you're describing in Baton Rouge and its one of my favorites. But I think the reasons your reviewer is giving for denial are arbitrary at best. Just the interpretation of one particular reviewer.

 

I would have more of a problem with the fact that you live 3,000 km away. Even if you have a maintenance agreement with one of the locals, why would you want to do that? Aren't there any libraries in your neck of the woods? Heck, maybe the reviewer in your area would approve it without a second thought.

Edited by Chief301

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Just a logbook doe snot a geocache make. The logbook must be in a container and the building does not count. If it was a fake book with a log of some kind inside, you woul dbe OK.

 

 

May be onto something there. Try that angle with your reviewer....the book is hollow and has a log inside. That may satisfy the "container" requirement.

 

As for the GPS use requirement, OK, granted, you can find the library on a map without using the GPS. How about hiding a micro container somewhere outside the library, with the Dewey decimal number of the "book" in it? Then you would have to use a GPS to find the first stage, which would give you the instructions to reach the final.

 

Offer up some compromises like this to your reviewer and see what happens. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

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I would have more of a problem with the fact that you live 3,000 km away. Even if you have a maintenance agreement with one of the locals, why would you want to do that? Aren't there any libraries in your neck of the woods? Heck, maybe the reviewer in your area would approve it without a second thought.

 

This. ^^^

 

If I were the geocacher librarian I would just plant and post it myself. She can then check on it daily if she wants to and fix any problem immediately. Why be a go-between, since essentially it becomes her responsibility.

 

I agree, plant it in a local library.

 

Also, it's more fun to find a fake hollow book, rather then a store-bought notebook on the shelf.

Edited by L0ne R

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Library caches are still certainly allowed. So yeah, there are some grey areas that have prompted denial and adjustment of your listing before getting published.

 

The best comment I saw above was to use a first stage to provide details on where to the find the book in the library. A local (to me) library cache does that. That really is the only way around the 'gps required' guideline - if the final is in the library (as opposed to using information from within the library to locate the final outside).

 

Another thing to consider is that the 'puzzle' portion is actually a field puzzle. You don't necessarily have to have a puzzle on the cache page, if the coordinates take you to something in the field for which you need to do work or solve in order to locate the final cache.

 

As with the no-precedent rule, the fact that I have found a library cache where the book was the cache (which was also pretty cool) doesn't matter. They may not be allowed now, so the hollowed book may be your only option if the cache is in the library. Feels like a technicality, but sometimes technicalities need to be enforced or people will complain their way around them :P

 

In short, my basic suggestions:

Stage 1 be physically found using gps coordinates near the library (perhaps even right next to it outside with permission), which provides required information for

Stage 2 (&/or final) hidden within the library in a hollowed book.

* Physical stage 1 could be published as a Multi

* Puzzle to be solved on the cache page plus physical information at stage 1 would likely require publishing as a Msytery

* If a puzzle is entirely contained at the physical stage, add the Field Puzzle attribute

 

Little things like that help to strengthen the viability of the cache you have set up and make it more likely to be published if no guidelines are blatantly broken (purposely or accidentally)

 

ETA: Also, yeah, publishing a library cache 3000km away seems..excessive? Is there a very specific reason why you want to have the cache published at that particular library?

Edited by thebruce0

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Just a logbook does not a geocache make. The logbook must be in a container and the building does not count. If it was a fake book with a log of some kind inside, you woul dbe OK.

It seems kinda arbitrary to me to draw a distinction between a book with pages to write log entries in and a book with a hole cut out of the middle which has a second book inside with pages to write log entries in. Do you think this is reasonable, or are you just quoting the letter of the law?

 

If you pull up the coords on a map, you will most likely see that it is near a library. Your page says "enter" so that narrows down the options considerably. The GPS use requirement refers to the need for using the GPS to get as close as possible to either the cache or a place where you have to gather data, shoot a projection, solve a puzzle, or do something else to get you to the cache. Just going to the coords and going in somewhere won't cut it. You don't need a GPS for that. You will need to do something to make use of the GPS a must.

I thought the "must use GPS" requirement for letterbox hybrids could satisfied with a description starting with "Start at the posted coordinates, then go through the doors and..." I could have sworn that being able to see from space what the directions meant wasn't considered a problem. Am I wrong, or is this good enough for letterbox hybrids but not for puzzle caches?

 

I've seen library caches that were just traditionals: posted coordinates are the front door, then the description explains how to find the cache. Would such a cache no longer be approved? Or is there something that makes the rules work out differently for a puzzle cache?

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Little things like that help to strengthen the viability of the cache you have set up and make it more likely to be published if no guidelines are blatantly broken (purposely or accidentally)

Unfortunately, making the cache a multi with an external component increases the cache maintenance headaches, an important consideration in this case. (And I'm suspecting that the OP, being 3K km away, might have trouble placing a pointer.)

 

If it needs to be a multi, I'd suggest one or more virtual waypoints from which information is collected to provide the call number. Or the information collected from the virtual waypoints could produced coordinates pointing to the library's front door, I think, if you still want the cache title to provide the call number.

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I thought the "must use GPS" requirement for letterbox hybrids could satisfied with a description starting with "Start at the posted coordinates, then go through the doors and..." I could have sworn that being able to see from space what the directions meant wasn't considered a problem. Am I wrong, or is this good enough for letterbox hybrids but not for puzzle caches?

 

A letterbox is not about off-set coordinates. If your cache is an off-set, list it as a Puzzle/Mystery.

 

A letterbox is all about the (unique identifying) stamp in the box.

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I thought the "must use GPS" requirement for letterbox hybrids could satisfied with a description starting with "Start at the posted coordinates, then go through the doors and..." I could have sworn that being able to see from space what the directions meant wasn't considered a problem. Am I wrong, or is this good enough for letterbox hybrids but not for puzzle caches?

 

A letterbox is not about off-set coordinates. If your cache is an off-set, list it as a Puzzle/Mystery.

 

A letterbox is all about the (unique identifying) stamp in the box.

 

Oh wait.....

 

You were saying if off-set is good enough for letterboxes it should be fine for Puzzle/Mystery boxes.....I agree, and thought it was. Although I'm not sure if placing the coordinates on the library qualifies. Maybe if the coordinates took someone to a landmark and directions from there. That's usually how a letterbox hybrid directions traditional work. Not sure how that would fit with a library cache.

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Just a logbook does not a geocache make. The logbook must be in a container and the building does not count. If it was a fake book with a log of some kind inside, you woul dbe OK.

It seems kinda arbitrary to me to draw a distinction between a book with pages to write log entries in and a book with a hole cut out of the middle which has a second book inside with pages to write log entries in. Do you think this is reasonable, or are you just quoting the letter of the law?

 

If you pull up the coords on a map, you will most likely see that it is near a library. Your page says "enter" so that narrows down the options considerably. The GPS use requirement refers to the need for using the GPS to get as close as possible to either the cache or a place where you have to gather data, shoot a projection, solve a puzzle, or do something else to get you to the cache. Just going to the coords and going in somewhere won't cut it. You don't need a GPS for that. You will need to do something to make use of the GPS a must.

I thought the "must use GPS" requirement for letterbox hybrids could satisfied with a description starting with "Start at the posted coordinates, then go through the doors and..." I could have sworn that being able to see from space what the directions meant wasn't considered a problem. Am I wrong, or is this good enough for letterbox hybrids but not for puzzle caches?

 

I've seen library caches that were just traditionals: posted coordinates are the front door, then the description explains how to find the cache. Would such a cache no longer be approved? Or is there something that makes the rules work out differently for a puzzle cache?

The requirements have changed. "This one was done this way" does not meet current requirements.

Current guidelines do not permit 'front door of library" or 'parking lot for letter box hybrid.' That is the GPS requirement. My letterbox hybrid brings you to the starting point of your adventure. A micro across the street in the park with the call numbers of the book you seek would meet the GPS Usage guideline.

A log book in a container is a recent guideline. A hollowed out book with a log inside should work.

Calling the reviewer to task for suggesting the cache be archive and resubmitted is reprehensible. "My cache has been muggled a few times." "Archive and submit a new one" is a great response. Way to go! Not the reviewers fault that the new cache does not meet guidelines. His Ouija board must have been broken! If the CO cannot meet the guidelines, s/he should try reading them! Or is that too much to ask?

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I thought the "must use GPS" requirement for letterbox hybrids could satisfied with a description starting with "Start at the posted coordinates, then go through the doors and..." I could have sworn that being able to see from space what the directions meant wasn't considered a problem. Am I wrong, or is this good enough for letterbox hybrids but not for puzzle caches?

 

A letterbox is not about off-set coordinates. If your cache is an off-set, list it as a Puzzle/Mystery.

 

A letterbox is all about the (unique identifying) stamp in the box.

 

Oh wait.....

 

You were saying if off-set is good enough for letterboxes it should be fine for Puzzle/Mystery boxes.....I agree, and thought it was. Although I'm not sure if placing the coordinates on the library qualifies. Maybe if the coordinates took someone to a landmark and directions from there. That's usually how a letterbox hybrid directions traditional work. Not sure how that would fit with a library cache.

 

Well, there's a solution. List it as a Letterbox Hybrid. Carve out a hole in the book, put in a smaller log sheet and a letterbox stamp, then set the coordinates to the big tree in front of the library and use letterbox clues to guide the finder inside.

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This situation (and this resulting forum thread) happens so frequently that I have a form letter:

 

Hello, I am a volunteer for Geocaching.com and I reviewed your cache. I had a question for you. It sounds like your cache is hidden inside a building. Unless there's a skylight or big windows, GPS receivers don't work well indoors. If the posted coordinates take the finder to the building's front door, I am not sure whether your cache meets the listing guidelines: "GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions." Reference: http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx?expand=1#coordinates

 

Could you please explain how your cache requires GPS use? If the finder doesn't need a GPS except to find the building's front door, this is easy to fix. Either (a) use the clue inside the building to give coordinates to a final container hidden outdoors somewhere, or (B) first take the finder to a container that is located with a GPS, where they are told to go to the location inside the building to sign the log.

 

Write back to me after you've considered these comments and made any necessary edits to your cache page. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Using a form letter for common situations isn't "arbitrary."

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If it needs to be a multi, I'd suggest one or more virtual waypoints from which information is collected to provide the call number. Or the information collected from the virtual waypoints could produced coordinates pointing to the library's front door, I think, if you still want the cache title to provide the call number.

Ah, yeah, I think a virtual waypoint would work too - point being, you have to go to a GPS coordinate to get information, whether it's on a sign (eg) or inside a container. The answer gives you the details to find the final inside the library. A multi with a virtual or physical stage 1 I think would pass, on that part at least.

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Ah, yeah, I think a virtual waypoint would work too - point being, you have to go to a GPS coordinate to get information, whether it's on a sign (eg) or inside a container.

OK, so posting coordinates taking you to the sign saying "Smalltown Public Library" is fine, but posting coordinates taking you to the front door of the Smalltown Public Library itself is not? Why shouldn't I consider that arbitrary? Could he post the coordinates of the sign, and then say "Figure out from the sign where you should go for the next step"? Or does the information gathered from a virtual stage have to itself produce something requiring a GPSr to follow?

 

I don't particularly care about the rule, I just want to understand what problem it's trying to prevent.

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I don't particularly care about the rule, I just want to understand what problem it's trying to prevent.

 

[Responding from my player account, as I've already posted in this thread from that account, but answering from my experiences as a reviewer]

 

The problem is cache designs without any GPS use - often submitted as Unknown, caches of assorted designs, some common examples:

 


  •  
  • Coords on listing = parking spot, text - look around for it, "use your Geosense." Coords for pull off on road. Hider knows that they're wildly attracted to guardrails, but you might be thinking tree, sign, shrub etc.
  • Coords as center point + image on listing; image item is within "x" distance of listing coords (and often this is the full 2 miles or more), "cache 10 ft SW of image item" (this is called shutterspotting, it's not geocaching). I've seen some astonishingly obscure images, including blurred headlights in a night scene.
  • Coords for turn off main road to park entry road, sometimes coords the middle of parking lot, then written directions to cache. Letterbox hybrids are often submitted like this.
  • Puzzle encryption that solves to "email me", cache is behind the counter at CO's shop.
     

 

Somewhere in the hunt for each cache, there must be coordinates for a discrete location, needful to the cache hunt. Not every kind of hunt is geocaching.

 

On library caches, our instructions have changed in the years I've been reviewing. At one time we were told to "ease up on the way we interpret gps use" and allow coords for a library building as gps use. Then that was modified to allow it, but the listing needed to be pretty obscure in the text so that library cache didn't jump out at the seeker.

 

Library caches are generally submitted as coords for building, title as Call number, text as hours of operation - all but the most novice cacher understand library cache from the listing. While you might use your gps to navigate to the cache, you could skip that and just go to the library and look up the book at the call number.

 

The current situation for library caches is that there must be coordinates for a discrete location, needful to the cache hunt. It's not "the building". Coords on library caches as submitted could often be +- 500ft, more when they're parking coords. The simplest solution is a stage outside, either a first stage, found from coords with the instructions to go inside and find book, or vice versa - the original design, title as call number, coords as library building, hours of operation, but the book now contains coords for an outside final stage where the log is signed.

Edited by Isonzo Karst

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OK, so posting coordinates taking you to the sign saying "Smalltown Public Library" is fine, but posting coordinates taking you to the front door of the Smalltown Public Library itself is not? Why shouldn't I consider that arbitrary? Could he post the coordinates of the sign, and then say "Figure out from the sign where you should go for the next step"? Or does the information gathered from a virtual stage have to itself produce something requiring a GPSr to follow?

 

I don't particularly care about the rule, I just want to understand what problem it's trying to prevent.

First, what IK said.

Second, yeah - more like your coordinates to a sign, whereupon you must find the information required to solve say a math problem the gives the solution required to locate the next stage. Your first example - just coordinates for a sign if you need do nothing but go into the library? No. There needs to be a task of some sort, whether it's finding a physical container with instructions at the coords, or gleaning of information off something at the coords, to solve a puzzle for info or determine the next coordinates.

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The problem is cache designs without any GPS use - often submitted as Unknown, caches of assorted designs, some common examples:...

So you're saying it's basically an issue of purity, trying to eliminate other kinds of hunts that have crept into geocaching.

 

It sounds like the typical picture cache would no longer be allowed where the posted coordinates are a starting point and the seeker follows a series of pictures to the final location. That would be what you call "shutterspotting".

 

Interesting info. Thanks for clarifying.

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Library caches are generally submitted as coords for building, title as Call number, text as hours of operation - all but the most novice cacher understand library cache from the listing. While you might use your gps to navigate to the cache, you could skip that and just go to the library and look up the book at the call number.

 

 

This is the part where I keep getting stuck understanding.

 

New cache gets posted under the name, "A Powerful Cache". I click the Google map link on the cache listing, click satellite, zoom in and see a sidewalk transformer box, mid block on a residential street. Do I need a GPS reader to find that cache?

 

It could be argued that with the proper online tools and hints, you don't need a GPS to find any cache.

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I click the Google map link on the cache listing, click satellite, zoom in and see a sidewalk transformer box, mid block on a residential street. Do I need a GPS reader to find that cache?

 

It could be argued that with the proper online tools and hints, you don't need a GPS to find any cache.

But your transformer cache COULD be found by using a GPS receiver in a meaningful way. The coordinates will point to the container within the margin of error. Coords at a random spot on the front lawn of the library or museum are not meaningful; they aren't meant to point to a container, clue tag, etc.

 

I've had the pleasure of caching with a fellow who's legally blind, but who regularly beat the rest of the group to the find. He would hold the GPS close to his face, study it, walk a few steps, look at the GPS again, and eventually would search that transformer box. He used his GPS, not just his eyes and brain. When I have trouble deciding something under the "meaningful GPS use" guideline, I picture him doing whatever is called for on the cache listing.

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It sounds like the typical picture cache would no longer be allowed where the posted coordinates are a starting point and the seeker follows a series of pictures to the final location. That would be what you call "shutterspotting".

 

If the coords are for a on this "typical picture cache" are for a distinct location, needful to finding the cache, it would be fine. Not every stage needs gps use, but some stage does. I reviewed one of these recently. As submitted, coords were for parking area, and then instructions to walk north and look for Image #1. All that was required to get this in publishable condition was to start with coords for Image #1. From there it was chase images to cache.

 

Re mapping and caching, per Keystone, plenty of traditional caches can by found by zooming in on the map. That's not the issue. The issue is that if all you had was the coords for many library caches, as submitted, you'd be wandering about in the parking lot, or the landscaping around the edge of the building, wondering where the cache was? The coords will get you close, and the CALL number (as title, in the text or as hint) is what you need to actually sign the log. Coords for "close" at +- 500 feet, plus hint to item is not going to cut it. Changing the type to puzzle doesn't help.

 

A cache with only one set of coords that you could alter by hundreds of feet and not change the caching experience fails the GPS use standard.

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If the coords are for a on this "typical picture cache" are for a distinct location, needful to finding the cache, it would be fine.

I gather from your quotes that this kind of cache isn't as common in other areas. I'm aware of about 10 picture caches in the SF area, and I think there are others that I haven't noticed. They all post coordinates of where to start looking for the first picture of the trail, a location as vague as a library. They're a lot of fun, but it sounds like I shouldn't expect to see any more of them -- and I can stop planning the one I've been thinking of.

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