Clarification on moving a cache more than 160m?

[+Hurricane Luke]

How do reviewers decide whether an already in place cache be moved more than 160 metres at request of the user or whether it should be archived and a new one placed? Section 6.11 "Major change" says:

 

If you need to change the coordinates beyond 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m), or change the type of cache, please contact your local reviewer. The reviewer will check the changes for adherence to the current guidelines and notify you when the changes have been made, or suggest that a new cache listing should be submitted. Please be sure to follow any instructions the reviewer may send you.

 

Along with Section 6.9 "Editing your cache coordinates":

In some circumstances, it may be appropriate to archive the original cache, and submit the moved cache as a new listing. Your reviewer will advise you if this is the case.

 

Well, that's a bit ambiguous. What are these circumstances? What is the qualifying difference between justifying a long-distance move & justifying an archival of a cache? Ideas? Thanks.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

How do reviewers decide whether an already in place cache be moved more than 160 metres at request of the user or whether it should be archived and a new one placed? Section 6.11 "Major change" says:

 

If you need to change the coordinates beyond 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m), or change the type of cache, please contact your local reviewer. The reviewer will check the changes for adherence to the current guidelines and notify you when the changes have been made, or suggest that a new cache listing should be submitted. Please be sure to follow any instructions the reviewer may send you.

 

Along with Section 6.9 "Editing your cache coordinates":

In some circumstances, it may be appropriate to archive the original cache, and submit the moved cache as a new listing. Your reviewer will advise you if this is the case.

 

Well, that's a bit ambiguous. What are these circumstances? What is the qualifying difference between justifying a long-distance move & justifying an archival of a cache? Ideas? Thanks.

 

The justification of archiving a cache if you're going to move it more than 160 meters is that you've significantly changed the cache and the caching experience. Pretend your cache was on the goalposts in the endzone of a football field. You move it 160 meters (or about 175 yards) and the cache is probably somewhere in the landscaping outside the stadium. It's a totally different location and experience. Better to archive that cache and submit it as a new cache in a new location.

[+WRASTRO]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

[+Hurricane Luke]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

 

Okay - but what you've just said doesn't actually reflect the guidelines, and it isn't always true either. What happens if you've got a cache on a 10 mile hike and you want to move it 200 metres?

[+The_Incredibles_]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

 

I disagree. One of my caches is hidden on a beach and had to be moved more than 161 meters. Same caching experience.

[+The_Incredibles_]

 

Well, that's a bit ambiguous. What are these circumstances? What is the qualifying difference between justifying a long-distance move & justifying an archival of a cache? Ideas? Thanks.

 

Whenever I"ve needed to move a cache, I usually write a note to the reviewer explaining why. I think if your explanation is reasonable and the distance is not great, the reviewer will most likely accept it.

[+niraD]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

I disagree. One of my caches is hidden on a beach and had to be moved more than 161 meters. Same caching experience.

I've seen puzzle caches where the final moved from one in-theme location to a similar in-theme location that was far enough away that the (bogus) posted coordinates needed to change. The puzzle didn't change, and the type of in-theme location didn't change. The owner thought the experience was essentially the same, and the volunteer reviewer agreed.

[+MartyBartfast]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

 

Cache is by a creek along a trail 6km from the nearest road, creek floods and washes away the cache but you find a spot 200m along the same creek which isn't prone to flooding, so now the trek is 6.2km rather than 6 km. IMHO it's still exactly the same experience.

[+briansnat]

How do reviewers decide whether an already in place cache be moved more than 160 metres at request of the user or whether it should be archived and a new one placed? Section 6.11 "Major change" says:

 

If you need to change the coordinates beyond 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m), or change the type of cache, please contact your local reviewer. The reviewer will check the changes for adherence to the current guidelines and notify you when the changes have been made, or suggest that a new cache listing should be submitted. Please be sure to follow any instructions the reviewer may send you.

 

Along with Section 6.9 "Editing your cache coordinates":

In some circumstances, it may be appropriate to archive the original cache, and submit the moved cache as a new listing. Your reviewer will advise you if this is the case.

 

Well, that's a bit ambiguous. What are these circumstances? What is the qualifying difference between justifying a long-distance move & justifying an archival of a cache? Ideas? Thanks.

 

As a reviewer who almost always advises that a new listing be submitted when I'm asked to move a cache more than 500 feet, I believe that a move of that magnitude significantly changes the experience and a new cache should be required to reflect that. There can be exceptions. Moving a cache 500 feet down a rural road to a different guardrail in Nebraska corn country, or 600 feet to another spot in a non nondescript stretch of desert probably doesn't change the experience all that much so I may make that move for the owner.

[+Viajero Perdido]

Sometimes the cache doesn't move at all, but the coordinates have to, if they're going to be correct.

 

We had a cache that was off by an entire degree (oops), about 60km. The reviewer simply fixed the coords.

[+tozainamboku]

My question would be "how can you move a cache more than 161 meters and claim it is the same caching experience?" It isn't. The question answers itself. Time for a new listing.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim that just moving 160m is new experience and then say that power trails are just doing the same cache over and over. (I don't know that WRASTRO ever said that. Just pointing out that we get both opinions around here).

 

My guess is that most reviewers will recommend a new listing and its up to the cache owner to provide the justification for keeping the old listing for the new location. It probably depends a lot on reviewer judgment. However per the guidelines the reviewer may only suggest or advise that you make a new listing. (If there are cases where a cache would meet all the other guidelines at the new location and the reviewer refuses to make the changes to the original cache page, I'd like to hear about it).

 

Some people view the container itself as the cache and if they move the container to a new location they see this as the same cache and therefore the same listing. This used to be quite common in the early days when you could move the coordinates by more that 160m without a reviewer. Conversely, some cache owners would delete there cache listing an submit a new one if the container went missing and had to be replaced. The new consensus is that you should create a new listing if the geocaching experience has changed significantly and keep the old listing if you have substantially the same experience. But the definition significantly changed or substantially the same is up to the cache owner, in most cases, with the reviewers (as experienced geocachers) able to make a recommendation.

[AZcachemeister]

...I believe that a move of that magnitude...

 

There you have it.

In Brian's territory, you will need to submit a new cache.

In someone else's territory, perhaps not.

It's subjective, and each reviewer will have their own opinion. Granted the reviewer's guidelines may have recommendations and uses terms like 'should' and 'in most cases', but in the end they have the final say.

 

Further, reviewers are people too, and your presentation of why the move should be allowed (combined with their mood at that time) would probably have some bearing on the final outcome.

[+T.D.M.22]

Doesn't it depend on the cache though? I had one that was placed at the bottom of a fence post. FOund out it was private property and moved it-600 feet or so. Still at the bottom of a fence post. Still the same empty, grass filled field, and same container. same view and everything. 500 feet, or even a mile(not that I'd do that) really won't make a major difference in an empty field or along a stretch of farm road, but in the city even 3 feet can make a difference.

[+captnemo]

I moved a cache around 600 feet from the east side of a cemetary to the south side of the cemetary after it had been muggled twice. This is in open dessert. The theme of the cache is the cemetary so the experence and the D/T is the same so the reviewer agreed to relocation instead of a new cache.

[+The A-Team]

As a reviewer who almost always advises that a new listing be submitted when I'm asked to move a cache more than 500 feet...

Just to be clear, do you "advise", or "require"? If you advise a cacher that a new listing would be better, but they decide they still want to keep the old listing, will you still make the change? I only ask because the following quote from the end of your post seems to imply that you wouldn't make the change under some circumstances, which would go against what the guidelines seem to say:

...so I may make that move for the owner

[+T.D.M.22]

He said advise. He also said "...so I may make that move for the owner" It seems to me that it means he will allow it(he makes it because we can't do it ourselves) not that he makes the move as in forces the move. Of course I may have misunderstood what you meant, and I can't speak for Briansnat.

[+briansnat]

As a reviewer who almost always advises that a new listing be submitted when I'm asked to move a cache more than 500 feet...

Just to be clear, do you "advise", or "require"? If you advise a cacher that a new listing would be better, but they decide they still want to keep the old listing, will you still make the change? I only ask because the following quote from the end of your post seems to imply that you wouldn't make the change under some circumstances, which would go against what the guidelines seem to say:

...so I may make that move for the owner

 

I've always advised and the cache owner has always seemed to take my advice. If someone pressed it I would listen to his argument as to why it would be necessary to keep the same listing and if it was convincing enough I would make the change for him.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

I have seen cases where a hider posted the wrong coordinates by one degree or 1 minute and had the reviewer correct it rather than make a new listing. Take care when you post a new cache for review.

If the stump you hid a cache in got bulldozed out, it's time for a new listing.

[+redsox_mark]

My first hide was "muggled" and chewed up by some animal in the first week. I decided to move the cache about 200 meters away in the same woodland. It is a 2 stage multi with a virtual stage (which remained the same). The new location was different and a different size container, but the reviewer moved it for me. I'm not sure if the short duration it had been hidden was a factor or not. It has been doing fine at the new location for 2.5 years now.