Local Rules

January 25, 2012

Hello all,

I am brand new to geocaching. My cousin introduced me to the activity earlier this week and I have yet to go out and find my first cache, although this Saturday I plan on doing so. The idea of hiding a cache is extremely intriguing to me as well and I look forward to taking part in this aspect of geocaching in the near future (after I have logged some finds). I have a good idea for a fun, interactive cache, and can't wait to implement it. My question concerns the strictness of local rules.

A bit of background.... I grew up next to a forest preserve. My whole childhood was spent here, and I know every square inch of the, decently sized, preserve extremely well, even though it has been a couple years since I spent time there. I, personally and with friends, have probably cleaned up more litter (from the parking areas at least, most people don't venture much farther than that) in the preserve than any group, individual, etc. I have always respected the beauty of the place, because I enjoyed being there so much. This is absolutely where I would want to hide my cache. Then I read up on the local county rules..... Kane County, IL.

To put it bluntly. The local rules are bureaucratic nonsense. Permit process, inspection of physical cache (clear, and fitting a specific size), pre-discussion with park service, meeting with ranger to place the container FOR YOU, requirement that you personally check the cache often, and re-apply for a permit yearly. This is ridiculous. I understand that there are arguments to be made for why these regulations are important, but I can tell you right now.... I do not buy those arguments. So.... I just wanted to know if all the listed caches follow the local rules, 100%? If it is customary to follow only the rules that make sense (sort of like some traffic laws), and caches are listed that don't adhere to the strict guidelines, then I will not bother with this ridiculous process. One of my close friends is a park ranger who has yet to hide a cache with someone, but he said there are unregistered caches all around, and he just ignores them. Any more information on this would be great. I don't want to do anything that the geocaching community frowns on, but I would never follow that process (mostly because I don't have time, and partially on principle).

*The sad part of it - Has anyone seen the Republican debates, where the candidates jump over one another to proclaim how badly they want to abolish the EPA? I'm not going to take one partisan side or the other, but I have studied environmental admin law, and it is this bureaucratic waste that causes this outrage. I understand the county forest preserve system is not the EPA, but the sentiment relates. As a citizen, the state's protected land is as much mine as anyones, and if I am not hurting the ecosystem, then leave me alone.

Edited January 25, 2012 by DrDavidLopan

January 25, 2012

So.... I just wanted to know if all the listed caches follow the local rules, 100%?

Most likely 1% followed all the local rules. At least that's what I'd expect.

7.3k · January 25, 2012

If the park has a permit system, then the cache reviewer will probably ask you to either discuss your permit with them or even give them a copy of it.

4.8k · January 25, 2012

My recommendation would be to work with the Land Manager to get approval for any cache placements in the Preserve. It will help avoid conflicts in the long run. It's also more than likely that your Local Reviewer is already aware of the restrictions, and would likely ask you to produce a permit or contact infoation during the Review process.

Good luck!

2.6k · January 25, 2012

Follow the rules or it will be archived when the revieweres find out.

Follow the rules or the Land Manager will remove it if they find out.

Follow the rules or the rest of us will get banned from hunting/finding caches there.

1.2k · January 25, 2012

If the park has a permit system, then the cache reviewer will probably ask you to either discuss your permit with them or even give them a copy of it.

I know our local reviewers know of the requirements and would request prior to a cache being published that it is clear you followed all the steps required of the local laws...

1.2k · January 25, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

1.2k · January 25, 2012

Follow the rules or it will be archived when the revieweres find out.

Follow the rules or the Land Manager will remove it if they find out.

Follow the rules or the rest of us will get banned from hunting/finding caches there.

+1

3.1k · January 25, 2012

I don't want to do anything that the geocaching community frowns on, but I would never follow that process (mostly because I don't have time, and partially on principle).

I'm sure there are plenty of other places where you can hide a cache.

7.3k · January 25, 2012

It can be frustrating when parks have permits and rules that seem to be overbearing/arbitrary. But I have to feel glad that they are trying to manage the land in a way that they think is best. I also am glad that Groundspeak and local cachers work with them, because ultimately that will benefit everybody involved.

January 25, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

1.4k · January 25, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

Did you stop to consider that there are reasons for the "ridiculous process" that you "just don't have time for"? At least they allow caches in the preserve, there are plenty of places that don't allow caches at all. It's really not a difficult process and could be done in pieces. Make a quality cache, get it put out, and maintain it so people can find a nice cache. Or don't, but don't complain about a park who supports our hobby.

January 25, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

Did you stop to consider that there are reasons for the "ridiculous process" that you "just don't have time for"? At least they allow caches in the preserve, there are plenty of places that don't allow caches at all. It's really not a difficult process and could be done in pieces. Make a quality cache, get it put out, and maintain it so people can find a nice cache. Or don't, but don't complain about a park who supports our hobby.

Yes, not only did I read all the reasons for this ridiculous process, but I stopped and considered them. I just completely disagree. We are not talking about private property here (where an owner should have complete control over such things). This is public land, and my tax dollars pay for the upkeep, maintenence, etc. of this land. Not only that, but I have personally volunteered at this preserve, both formally and informally to help maintain the natural beauty. I feel as much of an ownership over this preserve as anyone.

"Don't complain about a park..." - I apologize, but I feel it is not only my right to complain, but it is also my civic duty. This may be the improper forum for complaining about such things, but I am going to respond to posts that ask questions of me.

Again... I am not trying to be antagonistic, and because the community makes it clear that all local rules are to be followed, I will not break that code in any way. My initial post just wanted to be completely clear about that. Many aspects of life are goverened by "official" rules and regulations that are routinely broken or ignored by society. I just wanted to know if this was one of those cases. As it is not, I will not break any rules. My further posts were just my own personal viewpoints made in response to comments directed at me.

4.8k · January 25, 2012

It's always best to follow the rules.

7.8k · January 26, 2012

Why not try talking to the park managers? Explain your case (spent your childhood there, cleaned up litter, volunteered, etc.), and they might relax the rules for you. What's the worst that could happen? They say "Sorry, no exceptions" and you're just back to where you are now.

9.3k · January 26, 2012

Then I read up on the local county rules..... Kane County, IL.

After poking about the Internet, I found the rules for hiding caches in the Kane County Forest Preserve District. From the outside looking in, it appears that someone up there loves bureaucracy just for the sake of bureaucracy. I noticed that Kane County only lists 20 properties as belonging to that government entity. I suspect that these rules don't apply outside of the preserves.

Have you considered hiding a Wherigo cache? You could lead seekers on a GPS guided tour of all your favorite spots in the preserve of your choice, them take them off the property for the actual find. You would not need to get permission for the virtual stages inside the preserve, though depending on where you put the final, you may need permission for that.

38.2k · January 26, 2012

Local rules are followed 100% if the reviewer is aware of them. Sometimes the local rules ARE nothing but bureaucratic nonsense, but unfortunately for this sport to be viable, we have to play ball. Even when those rules are thought up by someone sitting at a desk with no practical exposure to geocaching.

January 26, 2012

Not that it is going to make you feel any better but it could be worse. Here are just two examples:

In bill H3794 signed by the governor of South Carolina on June 2, 2009, the South Carolina General Assembly prohibited geocaching on all state wildlife management areas, heritage preserves, and all other lands owned by the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources.

There is a $25 fee for the permit to place a geocache in a Pennsylvania State Park (you can theoretically avoid the fee by volunteer work)

1.4k · January 26, 2012

<_<

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

Did you stop to consider that there are reasons for the "ridiculous process" that you "just don't have time for"? At least they allow caches in the preserve, there are plenty of places that don't allow caches at all. It's really not a difficult process and could be done in pieces. Make a quality cache, get it put out, and maintain it so people can find a nice cache. Or don't, but don't complain about a park who supports our hobby.

Yes, not only did I read all the reasons for this ridiculous process, but I stopped and considered them. I just completely disagree. We are not talking about private property here (where an owner should have complete control over such things). This is public land, and my tax dollars pay for the upkeep, maintenence, etc. of this land. Not only that, but I have personally volunteered at this preserve, both formally and informally to help maintain the natural beauty. I feel as much of an ownership over this preserve as anyone.

"Don't complain about a park..." - I apologize, but I feel it is not only my right to complain, but it is also my civic duty. This may be the improper forum for complaining about such things, but I am going to respond to posts that ask questions of me.

Again... I am not trying to be antagonistic, and because the community makes it clear that all local rules are to be followed, I will not break that code in any way. My initial post just wanted to be completely clear about that. Many aspects of life are goverened by "official" rules and regulations that are routinely broken or ignored by society. I just wanted to know if this was one of those cases. As it is not, I will not break any rules. My further posts were just my own personal viewpoints made in response to comments directed at me.

I really shouldn't be responding to posts on days like this <_<

My apologies for the pointed tone. That being said, I stick with the gist of my post. I'm glad you read up on the reasons for the hoops you have to jump through to place a cache in said preserve. As somebody who has done as much to visit and clean up the area, I'm surprised to hear such a displeased tone from you regarding their attempt to keep the place in the best shape possible. I'm going to assume that's their main purpose soley because that's the only good reason I see for the red tape. Given the frequency of poor quality/maintained caches, an agency who takes that much care to make sure their land stays in the best condition possible while still allowing a hobby such as geocaching is to be commended; at least partially.

The Wherigo idea is a good one, although your cache won't be visited with any regularity. I second the idea of talking to the park officials (rangers?) to see if any exceptions can be made. Remember that quality caches take effort on many different fronts.

January 26, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

Did you stop to consider that there are reasons for the "ridiculous process" that you "just don't have time for"? At least they allow caches in the preserve, there are plenty of places that don't allow caches at all. It's really not a difficult process and could be done in pieces. Make a quality cache, get it put out, and maintain it so people can find a nice cache. Or don't, but don't complain about a park who supports our hobby.

Yes, not only did I read all the reasons for this ridiculous process, but I stopped and considered them. I just completely disagree. We are not talking about private property here (where an owner should have complete control over such things). This is public land, and my tax dollars pay for the upkeep, maintenence, etc. of this land. Not only that, but I have personally volunteered at this preserve, both formally and informally to help maintain the natural beauty. I feel as much of an ownership over this preserve as anyone.

"Don't complain about a park..." - I apologize, but I feel it is not only my right to complain, but it is also my civic duty. This may be the improper forum for complaining about such things, but I am going to respond to posts that ask questions of me.

Again... I am not trying to be antagonistic, and because the community makes it clear that all local rules are to be followed, I will not break that code in any way. My initial post just wanted to be completely clear about that. Many aspects of life are goverened by "official" rules and regulations that are routinely broken or ignored by society. I just wanted to know if this was one of those cases. As it is not, I will not break any rules. My further posts were just my own personal viewpoints made in response to comments directed at me.

I really shouldn't be responding to posts on days like this

My apologies for the pointed tone. That being said, I stick with the gist of my post. I'm glad you read up on the reasons for the hoops you have to jump through to place a cache in said preserve. As somebody who has done as much to visit and clean up the area, I'm surprised to hear such a displeased tone from you regarding their attempt to keep the place in the best shape possible. I'm going to assume that's their main purpose soley because that's the only good reason I see for the red tape. Given the frequency of poor quality/maintained caches, an agency who takes that much care to make sure their land stays in the best condition possible while still allowing a hobby such as geocaching is to be commended; at least partially.

The Wherigo idea is a good one, although your cache won't be visited with any regularity. I second the idea of talking to the park officials (rangers?) to see if any exceptions can be made. Remember that quality caches take effort on many different fronts.

I think part of the reason this particular regulation upset me so much (apart from the fact that I have a general distrust of rampant bureaucracy), is that we (friends and family) fought the park district when they wanted to remove a forest area of this preserve (not in the State preserved wetland area, but right outside on county land) in order to make a paved bike path. Of course the County won out (we were but a few, and no one had the time/resources to put up much of a fight), and my childhood woodland path became a paved bike path. I just have a general distrust of certain rules promulgated by government agencies existing outside the main 3 spheres of government. I have seen, all too often, government agencies create jobs, titles, duties, rules, etc. just to keep themselves working and growing, and NOT in the best interest of the citizens, nature, or the environment. I definitely do not think that these particular rules will result in better maintained caches. It seems to me that part of what makes this community so neat, is that when people visit the caches, they are able to help ensure that the cache is as it should be (by informing the owner of the condition, or by fixing what they can, etc.). I do not see how a County sticker will make the situation any better.

But, all that aside, I did read up on Wherigo caches, and that sounds like a super idea. I could place a physical cache in an easier (to deal with) place, but still require a trip around my ol' stomping grounds. Very cool!

7.3k · January 26, 2012

Just to add...regardless of what others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...it is always best to follow those policies...

The old saying (and I may mess it up) about asking forgiveness is easier than permission is a bunch of bull...it is the easy/lazy way out of actually doing what one knows should be done in the first place...

"others may/may not have done to "get around" the policies...." - Who are you quoting here?

"it is always best to follow those policies..." - I don't think I could disagree with this statement more. Then again, I will always allow common sense to trump blind obedience to bureaucratic rule.

That being said, as this is a community, not a solo venture.... I will completely abide by the rules of the community and follow all local mandates. It is a bit sad, because I will not get to place a cache in my childhood spot (I just don't have the time for the ridiculous process), but I understand that this is a community, and I will not be a person to break the established code.

Did you stop to consider that there are reasons for the "ridiculous process" that you "just don't have time for"? At least they allow caches in the preserve, there are plenty of places that don't allow caches at all. It's really not a difficult process and could be done in pieces. Make a quality cache, get it put out, and maintain it so people can find a nice cache. Or don't, but don't complain about a park who supports our hobby.

Yes, not only did I read all the reasons for this ridiculous process, but I stopped and considered them. I just completely disagree. We are not talking about private property here (where an owner should have complete control over such things). This is public land, and my tax dollars pay for the upkeep, maintenence, etc. of this land. Not only that, but I have personally volunteered at this preserve, both formally and informally to help maintain the natural beauty. I feel as much of an ownership over this preserve as anyone.

"Don't complain about a park..." - I apologize, but I feel it is not only my right to complain, but it is also my civic duty. This may be the improper forum for complaining about such things, but I am going to respond to posts that ask questions of me.

Again... I am not trying to be antagonistic, and because the community makes it clear that all local rules are to be followed, I will not break that code in any way. My initial post just wanted to be completely clear about that. Many aspects of life are goverened by "official" rules and regulations that are routinely broken or ignored by society. I just wanted to know if this was one of those cases. As it is not, I will not break any rules. My further posts were just my own personal viewpoints made in response to comments directed at me.

I really shouldn't be responding to posts on days like this

My apologies for the pointed tone. That being said, I stick with the gist of my post. I'm glad you read up on the reasons for the hoops you have to jump through to place a cache in said preserve. As somebody who has done as much to visit and clean up the area, I'm surprised to hear such a displeased tone from you regarding their attempt to keep the place in the best shape possible. I'm going to assume that's their main purpose soley because that's the only good reason I see for the red tape. Given the frequency of poor quality/maintained caches, an agency who takes that much care to make sure their land stays in the best condition possible while still allowing a hobby such as geocaching is to be commended; at least partially.

The Wherigo idea is a good one, although your cache won't be visited with any regularity. I second the idea of talking to the park officials (rangers?) to see if any exceptions can be made. Remember that quality caches take effort on many different fronts.

I think part of the reason this particular regulation upset me so much (apart from the fact that I have a general distrust of rampant bureaucracy), is that we (friends and family) fought the park district when they wanted to remove a forest area of this preserve (not in the State preserved wetland area, but right outside on county land) in order to make a paved bike path. Of course the County won out (we were but a few, and no one had the time/resources to put up much of a fight), and my childhood woodland path became a paved bike path. I just have a general distrust of certain rules promulgated by government agencies existing outside the main 3 spheres of government. I have seen, all too often, government agencies create jobs, titles, duties, rules, etc. just to keep themselves working and growing, and NOT in the best interest of the citizens, nature, or the environment. I definitely do not think that these particular rules will result in better maintained caches. It seems to me that part of what makes this community so neat, is that when people visit the caches, they are able to help ensure that the cache is as it should be (by informing the owner of the condition, or by fixing what they can, etc.). I do not see how a County sticker will make the situation any better.

But, all that aside, I did read up on Wherigo caches, and that sounds like a super idea. I could place a physical cache in an easier (to deal with) place, but still require a trip around my ol' stomping grounds. Very cool!

It would be lovely if the Wherigo idea works out for you!

I have a multi that I set up on a 2 mile loop trail through a state park natural area. At the time, (if I remember correctly) I knew that the state park would eventually have a permit system. So instead of placing the final within the state park, I placed it just outside the entrance in the city park. I've been happy with how that worked out, and the state park ranger was also happy with the result.

January 26, 2012

These rules do have one thing going for them... No MICROS allowed!!

A. The container must be a clear (see through), waterproof or sealable container with a size no greater than
385 cubic inches (approximately 4” x 8” x 12”) and contain at least one surface that the Forest Preserve

District of Kane County can affix a 2 ½” x 6” vinyl sticker giving notice that the container is a permitted

geocache. The vinyl sticker must be able to be adhered where it will be visible to Kane County Forest

Preserve personnel and preserve users

1.7k · January 26, 2012

These rules do have one thing going for them... No MICROS allowed!!

A. The container must be a clear (see through), waterproof or sealable container with a size no greater than
385 cubic inches (approximately 4” x 8” x 12”) and contain at least one surface that the Forest Preserve

District of Kane County can affix a 2 ½” x 6” vinyl sticker giving notice that the container is a permitted

geocache. The vinyl sticker must be able to be adhered where it will be visible to Kane County Forest

Preserve personnel and preserve users

And they must be hidden so they can be seen. :laughing:

8.6k · January 26, 2012

I'm just gonna guess here....

Ever wonder just WHY Kane Co. created such bureaucratic rules specifically relating to geocaches? Maybe just perhaps, somebody in Kane Co. thought that they could, should, would and did do what they wanted placing geocaches willy-nilly. It may well have gone on for a bit, then finally they (Kane Co.) brought the County Solicitor (or whatever they might call their retainer law firm) to have policies written up just for geocache placement within property under their control.

I notice that it must be a see-through container... hmmmmmmm, it smells as if they blew up an ammo can or two, or three.

Again, just a guess -- mostly because it is directed at geocaching and not much else. It just sort of seems like they might have had to "deal" with issues before the OP came along as a geocacher.

Rub a bureaucrat the wrong way too often, and they are bound to make you jump through hoops, if even just to sneeze.

Keep rubbing the wrong way and they just might ban geocaching on land under their control altogether. They could even go so far as to make it a crime to place such devices, citing things like "public nuisance" and the like.

Sounds a bit extreme, but the possibility exists.

That's my 2¢ guess.

January 26, 2012

There used to be a cache in my area called "Bending the Rules" where the cache owner led the seeker through a no-cache-zone parkland to pick up clues on trail signs. Once you did the whole walk you would have all the numbers that took you to a nearby public park for the cache. If you forest has such signs, you may be able to do something similar.

15.3k · January 26, 2012

Many of the parks and open spaces around here have pretty reasonable geocaching policies, thanks to the efforts of geocachers who worked with land managers to put those geocaching policies in place, to volunteers who teach geocaching classes or who organize CITO events, etc. If you don't like the current policies, then figure out how to work with land managers to suggest more reasonable policies, while still addressing their concerns (real or perceived).

But there are wildlife reserves, natural preserves, and other spaces around here that prohibit physical caches. Some caches have virtual waypoints in these spaces, with the actual containers being placed nearby, where physical caches are allowed.

10.2k · January 26, 2012

These rules do have one thing going for them... No MICROS allowed!!

A. The container must be a clear (see through), waterproof or sealable container with a size no greater than
385 cubic inches (approximately 4” x 8” x 12”) and contain at least one surface that the Forest Preserve

District of Kane County can affix a 2 ½” x 6” vinyl sticker giving notice that the container is a permitted

geocache. The vinyl sticker must be able to be adhered where it will be visible to Kane County Forest

Preserve personnel and preserve users

LAWL. Not like I haven't seen someone get a New York State Park permit for 1) a film canister, and 2) an M&M's container. But I digress. I agree these are some pretty brutal local restrictions Doc is dealing with. Could be worse, they could want $25 like Pennsylvania. :huh:

1.2k · January 26, 2012

In bill H3794 signed by the governor of South Carolina on June 2, 2009, the South Carolina General Assembly prohibited geocaching on all state wildlife management areas, heritage preserves, and all other lands owned OR operated by the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources.

I added the bold. This is what happens when one cache hider (or finder) chooses to not follow the rules laid out. We're still trying to repair this damage and may never have caches on DNR land again.

Now you said your park ranger friend knows there are illegal caches hidden. Why is this okay? That is the one part that would annoy me the most. I went through this with a recent cache. I made sure I followed the rules and the guy told me no I was too close (I wasn't) and yet I found at least 3 other sets of caches within the same distance. It is very frustrating when a park has a policy that they do not enforce.

2.8k · January 26, 2012

Yes, not only did I read all the reasons for this ridiculous process, but I stopped and considered them. I just completely disagree. We are not talking about private property here (where an owner should have complete control over such things). This is public land, and my tax dollars pay for the upkeep, maintenence, etc. of this land. Not only that, but I have personally volunteered at this preserve, both formally and informally to help maintain the natural beauty. I feel as much of an ownership over this preserve as anyone.

So does this entitlement carry over to other activities like ATVing all over the property? Go ahead...it's your to do with as you please. < sarcasm off >

Rules are in place to make sure the property remains avialable for *all* to enjoy for the foreseeable future.

9.3k · January 26, 2012

In bill H3794 signed by the governor of South Carolina on June 2, 2009, the South Carolina General Assembly prohibited geocaching on all state wildlife management areas, heritage preserves, and all other lands owned OR operated by the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources.

I added the bold. This is what happens when one cache hider (or finder) chooses to not follow the rules laid out.

Actually, this is what happens when your Government forgets who they work for. This has "Big Fish - Little Pond" written all over it. SCDNR allows a whole host of activities on their properties other than geocaching. I simply cannot fathom that they would outlaw any of these other activities over one single rules violation. The fact that they were so quick on the trigger with geocaching tells me they have some anti-caching mook whispering in their collective ears. I would guess this mook works somewhere fairly high in the DNR food chain.

I don't know what your current tactics are, but as someone who has worked in Government all my adult life, I speak Bureaucrat like a native, and I know how I would combat foolishness like this. My first step would be to gather enforcement data from DNR properties over the past 5 years. Every single arrest, every single citation, every single warning. Sort these by activity. (camping/mountain biking/ATV use/hunting/etc) It's all a matter of public record. Then I would watch for town hall type meetings set up for politicians to mingle with the little people. Either I or someone else who was on my side and spoke the language would attend every single one of these meetings, bringing the collected data, and raising my hand.

When called upon, I would ask the following question:

"Sir/Ma'am, as you know, House Bill 3794 outlawed geocaching on all SCDNR lands, because of a single, isolated rules violation by a single person. According to public records, which I have here for your perusal, in the past 5 years there have been X rules violations by campers, X rules violations by hunters, X rules violations by fishermen, Etc. And yet, there has been no call to ban these activities. Can you tell me why our elected officials are treating geocaching so unfairly?"

The closer you get to an election, the more impact such a question would have.

January 26, 2012

I am once again absolutely baffled how much bureacracy is involved in geocaching in the US. :blink: <_<

10.2k · January 26, 2012

In bill H3794 signed by the governor of South Carolina on June 2, 2009, the South Carolina General Assembly prohibited geocaching on all state wildlife management areas, heritage preserves, and all other lands owned OR operated by the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources.

I added the bold. This is what happens when one cache hider (or finder) chooses to not follow the rules laid out.

Actually, this is what happens when your Government forgets who they work for. This has "Big Fish - Little Pond" written all over it. SCDNR allows a whole host of activities on their properties other than geocaching. I simply cannot fathom that they would outlaw any of these other activities over one single rules violation. The fact that they were so quick on the trigger with geocaching tells me they have some anti-caching mook whispering in their collective ears. I would guess this mook works somewhere fairly high in the DNR food chain.

Excellent post CR! I've snipped much of it out though, people can read it in your post.

I for one am totally shocked at the many "rules are rules", and "this is what happens if even one person breaks the rules" type posts in this thread. The hoops the OP is being asked to jump through are totally ubsurd. As is this South Carolina nonsense, and the $25 to place a cache in a Pennsylvania State Park, as I previously mentioned. I'll take it from the guy who professes to speak bureaucrat. :lol:

38.2k · January 26, 2012

I am once again absolutely baffled how much bureacracy is involved in geocaching in the US.

Bureaucrats need to feel important and to feel important they make rules.

Actually it varies by state and often by park systems within states. Some states have few or no rules. I know in NJ state parks and wildlife areas are OK with geocaching. Only one county park system that I know of is considering rules. The rest have no policies. Go to a state like PA or MN it seems every entity, state and local wants to make rules.

Edited January 26, 2012 by briansnat

1.2k · January 26, 2012

CR thanks for your insight. I'm a 27 year old guy who does not speak any bureaucrat. From what I have heard you are right that the main influence is anticaching. There are others in my state that are probably much more knowledgeable and I have been mulling over how to try to approach reestablishing a positive relationship with DNR. Right now I'm focusing more of my energy on some local areas that are receptive and welcoming to cachers. Once I help them out then maybe I'll set my sights on DNR

6.1k · January 26, 2012

When a land manager hears about bomb squads, property damage from searching (broken sprinker heads, geotrails viewable from space), property damage from hiding (such as boring holes into redwood trees to hide a film can), caches in illegal areas where someone dies (Germany)...

This tends to give them a negative impression and creates an environment where excessive regulation seems warranted. I suspect that someone may have wanted a total ban, but settled on red tape instead just to see if geocachers would follow the rules or intentionally break them. Every action has a reaction, whether it it immediately noticeable or not.

6.1k · January 26, 2012

Sometimes it can be completely unintentional. A county sheriff discovers someone poking around on her private property.

What are you doing? You are looking for what ??

2.8k · January 26, 2012

Sometimes it can be completely unintentional. A county sheriff discovers someone poking around on her private property.

What are you doing? You are looking for what ??

Well it looks like that's one incident that should never have happened. Looks like there is a fence around the property (based on Google Street View), and I was able to track down the owners' names in about 2-4 minutes of googling.

4.1k · January 26, 2012

Local rules are followed 100% if the reviewer is aware of them.

It probably depends on the nature of the local rules. California state parks have a number of rules pertaining to caching, but at least in my experience, less than a handful of cachers follow them -- placing caches within three feet of designated trails and not within 300 feet of water features. A reviewer may not be able to tell from a cache page if a cache is in compliance with these rules. But permits are another matter. And our reviewers are very quick to spot caches placed on land that does not permit caching.

2.4k · January 27, 2012

These rules do have one thing going for them... No MICROS allowed!!

A. The container must be a clear (see through), waterproof or sealable container with a size no greater than
385 cubic inches (approximately 4” x 8” x 12”) and contain at least one surface that the Forest Preserve

District of Kane County can affix a 2 ½” x 6” vinyl sticker giving notice that the container is a permitted

geocache. The vinyl sticker must be able to be adhered where it will be visible to Kane County Forest

Preserve personnel and preserve users

And they must be hidden so they can be seen.

Funny!

Joking aside, the blue part says that the label must be visible on the outside, not the cache has to be in the open.

One has to assume that some hiding of the cache is permitted, just that it be discernible from unauthorized placements, and junk.

Doug 7rxc

Local Rules

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