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If someone forgets their pen...


dorqie

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That's not the issue, ballo & BD wished to force his morals of geocaching on everyone else, whether or not they truly found it. Some people call these people, "puritans" but that can be an insult so I would advise against using it.

 

First, it is spelled Baloo, it's in the spellchecker.

 

This is not about our imposing our morals on anyone or about anyone cheating. Geocaching has no rules. You can have a moving cache, buy a cache, hide one 50 feet from railroad tracks or whatever you want. However if you choose to list your cache with Groundspeak, we agree to abide by certain guidelines. GS chooses to be stringent about some and others they sometimes are less so.

 

As pointed out by the majority in this thread, signing the log is a reasonable and basic expectation. Stating openly that you did not sign the log is an open invitation to get it deleted and while you may not agree with it, the deletion would stand with GS if disputed. Even deleted, it does not affect their find or count, just the one on GC.

 

Auditing the logs is something most owners do and then usually only on particular unique caches. Using the argument that a person who puts in their log they did not sign should not be deleted because others may not have mentioned they didn't sign is unreasonable. Try that defense in traffic court. "Yes I was speeding your honor, however I should not be fined as there were many others who did also but did not get caught".

 

To address one other of your earlier points, I never stated whether or not I would accept any alternate means of verification. The comment I made was limited in scope to the OP.

 

If you choose to allow a log such as this to stand on a cache you listed here, terrific, but do not impose your "morals" on us by insisting we let it stand on a cache we are responsible for, "whether or not they truly found it".

 

Chicken dung, Baloo.

 

OK, well, only somewhat. I hear what you are saying about unique caches. I recently deleted, for the very first time, two logs from a team of cachers that stated that they spotted my cache 25 feet up the metal pole, but were not able to get it down to sign it. But that is a whole lot different from forgetting a pen.

 

You are correct and I am going to edit the post after this response. It should have read "Auditing the logs is something most owners do NOT DO". Sorry for the confusion, however the sentence should make more sense now.

 

People do need to read the OP. It is speaking of a very specific situation to which I responded. All the stuff like "cheating", "frozen containers", "photo verification", etc. has all been introduced by others.

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That's not the issue, ballo & BD wished to force his morals of geocaching on everyone else, whether or not they truly found it. Some people call these people, "puritans" but that can be an insult so I would advise against using it.

 

First, it is spelled Baloo, it's in the spellchecker.

 

This is not about our imposing our morals on anyone or about anyone cheating. Geocaching has no rules. You can have a moving cache, buy a cache, hide one 50 feet from railroad tracks or whatever you want. However if you choose to list your cache with Groundspeak, we agree to abide by certain guidelines. GS chooses to be stringent about some and others they sometimes are less so.

 

As pointed out by the majority in this thread, signing the log is a reasonable and basic expectation. Stating openly that you did not sign the log is an open invitation to get it deleted and while you may not agree with it, the deletion would stand with GS if disputed. Even deleted, it does not affect their find or count, just the one on GC.

 

Auditing the logs is something most owners do and then usually only on particular unique caches. Using the argument that a person who puts in their log they did not sign should not be deleted because others may not have mentioned they didn't sign is unreasonable. Try that defense in traffic court. "Yes I was speeding your honor, however I should not be fined as there were many others who did also but did not get caught".

 

To address one other of your earlier points, I never stated whether or not I would accept any alternate means of verification. The comment I made was limited in scope to the OP.

 

If you choose to allow a log such as this to stand on a cache you listed here, terrific, but do not impose your "morals" on us by insisting we let it stand on a cache we are responsible for, "whether or not they truly found it".

 

Chicken dung, Baloo.

 

OK, well, only somewhat. I hear what you are saying about unique caches. I recently deleted, for the very first time, two logs from a team of cachers that stated that they spotted my cache 25 feet up the metal pole, but were not able to get it down to sign it. But that is a whole lot different from forgetting a pen.

 

You are correct and I am going to edit the post after this response. It should have read "Auditing the logs is something most owners do NOT DO". Sorry for the confusion, however the sentence should make more sense now.

 

People do need to read the OP. It is speaking of a very specific situation to which I responded. All the stuff like "cheating", "frozen containers", "photo verification", etc. has all been introduced by others.

 

I should have realized the typo based on the context. Sorry about the chicken dung comment. :P

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I've logged finds a couple times and forgot my pen. But, I'll usually go back at a later date and sign it.

 

Best pen to have is an INKA pen that attaches to your keychain. Its an expensive pen but it writes in water if you need to. My husband and I both carry one!!! Wouldn't leave home without it!

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Auditing the logs is not something most owners do and then usually only on particular unique caches. Using the argument that a person who puts in their log they did not sign should not be deleted because others may not have mentioned they didn't sign is unreasonable. Try that defense in traffic court. "Yes I was speeding your honor, however I should not be fined as there were many others who did also but did not get caught".

 

 

It's more like walking into the police station and informing the officer you had been speeding. Sure, some Barney Fife types would insist on giving you the ticket. But I believe most would be more like Andy Taylor and recognize that you realize you were wrong since you turned yourself in and let you off with a warning.

 

Actually it's more like a cop sitting in the cop shop, waiting for 'offenders' to show up rather then going out and catching the real offenders.

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Why don't COs put pencils in a cache anymore? Used to be the norm even in film canisters (cut down pencil).

Sometimes they do, but they get stolen (often by accident)

I used to buy those short little gel pens for my caches, but they go missing a lot.

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Why don't COs put pencils in a cache anymore? Used to be the norm even in film canisters (cut down pencil).

Sometimes they do, but they get stolen (often by accident)

I used to buy those short little gel pens for my caches, but they go missing a lot.

 

Just seems that most of the newly published caches I go to don't have a pencil/pen. And just about every micro (film canister, matchbook size) and most smalls say BYOP in the description when there is room for a cut-down or golf pencil. Again, like logsheets in caches where a logbook would fit, COs not providing pencils/pens seems to be the trend. If a CO insists on a signed log then a pencil or pen in the container would be nice.

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Why don't COs put pencils in a cache anymore? Used to be the norm even in film canisters (cut down pencil).

Sometimes they do, but they get stolen (often by accident)

I used to buy those short little gel pens for my caches, but they go missing a lot.

 

Just seems that most of the newly published caches I go to don't have a pencil/pen. And just about every micro (film canister, matchbook size) and most smalls say BYOP in the description when there is room for a cut-down or golf pencil. Again, like logsheets in caches where a logbook would fit, COs not providing pencils/pens seems to be the trend. If a CO insists on a signed log then a pencil or pen in the container would be nice.

EVERY cacher needs to carry a couple writing devices. Never depend on the cache to have a writing device and the problem is solved. Easy as pie. Plus the writing device will usually be taken on accident.

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EVERY cacher needs to carry a couple writing devices. Never depend on the cache to have a writing device and the problem is solved. Easy as pie. Plus the writing device will usually be taken on accident.

 

The reason I learned that lesson was that in some of the older caches, there were all kinds of pens in there and none of them would work. I got sick of relying on the kindness of strangers, lol!

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EVERY cacher needs to carry a couple writing devices. Never depend on the cache to have a writing device and the problem is solved. Easy as pie. Plus the writing device will usually be taken on accident.

 

The reason I learned that lesson was that in some of the older caches, there were all kinds of pens in there and none of them would work. I got sick of relying on the kindness of strangers, lol!

 

True for pens. We put a pencil or two in each of our hides. I bring spares with me when doing maintenance visits. If I put only one pencil in the cache I sharpen it at both ends. That way if a nib breaks, there's another nib to use, and when both break at least they can be sharpened with a pocket knife. I've whittled a few pencils in my geo adventures. A few COs around here include a pencil sharpener in their cache.

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I know I'd go back, and sign it.. It's very rare I don't have a pen on me.

 

Though, I would say it's better to play by the rules, an sign.. Even if you end-up doing a abbreviated version like my Gelf6.. (hey, I'm almost 48, my eyesight is getting crappy, and sometimes, there's just not enough room on those Nano-Magnetic logs!)

 

I did, however, disallow a log entry here, by someone who went a little overboard on describing a cache in detail. (exact place of hide).. They were a little miffed, but I explained it wasn't personal, but the exact location in the log kind of took the surprise out of it.

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Why don't COs put pencils in a cache anymore? Used to be the norm even in film canisters (cut down pencil).

Sometimes they do, but they get stolen (often by accident)

I used to buy those short little gel pens for my caches, but they go missing a lot.

 

In the last two weeks, I had one of my pens removed from a cache in a swag trade. I consider this karma for the time I arrived at home after a caching run and noticed I had a pen from one of my finds that morning. Almost everyone has unconscious habits when it comes to carrying writing implements. Pens and pencils migrate, it's part of their nature.

 

I did have a situation where I was a quarter mile down a trail and found that there were no pens in my caching bag. I did have a lighter that I removed from an ammo can some time ago. I burned a twig and signed with the ash on the end. For my caches, I do audit my logs, but I would allow a find if they had taken a picture or they have some knowledge of the hide that was not on the cache page. Cachers tend to be a pretty honorable group around here, so it's not been much of a problem.

Edited by SpaceGamer
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Why don't COs put pencils in a cache anymore? Used to be the norm even in film canisters (cut down pencil).

Sometimes they do, but they get stolen (often by accident)

I used to buy those short little gel pens for my caches, but they go missing a lot.

I MAY OWE YOU ONE...ok maybe two

 

By the way, when I found that one, I had to sign the log with the pen I brought with me. After sitting in the cache for a year or two, none of the pens in there would write.

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I have forgotten the pen on a couple of occasions. I'll mark the log somehow. Sometimes I take a tiny triangular notch out of the log & tell the CO in the log exactly where that notch is located. (I'll usually notch it right after the ending word on a sentence printed on it, explaining that it's a geocache)

What would I do as a CO? We're kind of strict CO's, I suppose. If you didn't make a mark, take a picture, or somehow prove that you were physically there (as opposed to someone telling you about it.) We would delete the log. Then again, we also don't provide extra hints on our caches until you've logged a DNF & emailed us for a hint (as opposed to calling us) thus making it fair for everyone as opposed to giving the advantage to those who know us & our number. So I guess you could say we are on the stricter side of things..but in the interest of everyone involved.

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I took one of my caches down as it had been muggled and the container completely missing; funnily enough after that I had several logs from people, one of who professed to "not having a pen". Well I went back both times to check and see if the container had magically re-appeared, but noooo, not seen anywhere! So I am assuming that these people probably didn't find the container at all. <_< I did send them emails asking for their assistance in finding my container, plus asking for a description of it to confirm they actually found the right one. But nil response. I did think about deleting their logs, but a wise geocacher once wrote in a log (of a really horrible cache, in a filthy rat and rubbish infested area :huh: ) that "People cache for different reasons"....so you know what, I thought about what that means and he is absolutely right! We all do cache for different reasons and we all have different "rules" we apply to our caching! My personal rule is that I don't log it online if I haven't logged it in person, I trade even or up and I try to do "the right thing" by my own personal standards. I acknowledge that others might be quite happy to log 'finds' even if they didn't sign the physical log or even if they didn't find it at all! This does not affect me. It might disappoint me slightly :blink: but it does not affect me and how I play the game! So I'm not going to delete any logs and will continue to enjoy playing the game my way and allow others to play their own way. :smile:

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I took one of my caches down as it had been muggled and the container completely missing; funnily enough after that I had several logs from people, one of who professed to "not having a pen". Well I went back both times to check and see if the container had magically re-appeared, but noooo, not seen anywhere! So I am assuming that these people probably didn't find the container at all. <_< I did send them emails asking for their assistance in finding my container, plus asking for a description of it to confirm they actually found the right one. But nil response. I did think about deleting their logs, but a wise geocacher once wrote in a log (of a really horrible cache, in a filthy rat and rubbish infested area :huh: ) that "People cache for different reasons"....so you know what, I thought about what that means and he is absolutely right! We all do cache for different reasons and we all have different "rules" we apply to our caching! My personal rule is that I don't log it online if I haven't logged it in person, I trade even or up and I try to do "the right thing" by my own personal standards. I acknowledge that others might be quite happy to log 'finds' even if they didn't sign the physical log or even if they didn't find it at all! This does not affect me. It might disappoint me slightly :blink: but it does not affect me and how I play the game! So I'm not going to delete any logs and will continue to enjoy playing the game my way and allow others to play their own way. :smile:

You know, I like this. It's a good viewpoint, & maybe that's how we should think about it as well. We're still going to stick with the DNF+Email=Hint rule until someone is FTF..so nobody gets upset & all is fair for that little side game. But for the rest of it, I like your way better. More stress-free & less controlling, while still holding your own moral ground with the game. Thanks for putting it the way you did.

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I acknowledge that others might be quite happy to log 'finds' even if they didn't sign the physical log or even if they didn't find it at all! This does not affect me.

 

I would trust a cacher - unless I had reasons otherwise. If they said they found it but could not sign, I would not delete their log.

 

However - in the case where they claimed a find when the cache was not there, I would delete, as I think this does affect others. If a cacher is claiming a find on a cache which isn't there, it sends a confusing message to the owner and others trying to find it. So it does affect others.

 

If they find a cache but don't sign - whether they take a photo, or just give their word they found it - that doesn't affect others.

 

In other words - if I have good reason to believe the log is bogus, then per the guidelines I would delete it. Otherwise I would let it stand.

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If someone logs one of your caches, noting that they forgot their pen, would you delete their log until such time they sign it?

I personally wouldn't. If they are BSing, and never actually found my cache, using the pen as an excuse, it's really not hurting me (unless the cache is disabled, or something like that)

I'm just curious as to how meticulous other CO's are.

 

No, I would not delete their log. I have tried to forget a pen as well a few times. In that case I take a photo if the cache owner should complain about my log.

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I have also seen people take a picture of their gps with the log book, to prove they found it. I would accept this, but not require it. If i really suspected someone, I might email them and ask a couple of questions about the cache.

 

I have had to do this a a couple times when the log was too wet to sign or my pen quit workiing. The COs were kind enough to let it stand.

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