NYS DEC

[grdhogeve]

Like to know if anyone has experience dealing with NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, either positive or negative. Specifically, I've been trying to get permission to place a cache in or around Frenchman's Island on Oneida Lake. I finally got a Temporary Revocable Permit emailed to me from an officer in the Cortland County Office. I felt great until I opened the email. There is a 25.00 fee, which I could pay. But the kicker is the liability insurance required,$100,000/300,000. What the heck! Is this normal? Any thoughts?

[knowschad]

That is just plain ridiculous, if true. I have heard of liability insurance being required for events, but never for a geocache.

 

I believe that Briansnat, who posts here regularly, may know something. I was able to find several posts by him in the past that referred to that organization. Here is one example: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=266762&view=findpost&p=4581892

[+hukilaulau]

Like to know if anyone has experience dealing with NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, either positive or negative. Specifically, I've been trying to get permission to place a cache in or around Frenchman's Island on Oneida Lake. I finally got a Temporary Revocable Permit emailed to me from an officer in the Cortland County Office. I felt great until I opened the email. There is a 25.00 fee, which I could pay. But the kicker is the liability insurance required,$100,000/300,000. What the heck! Is this normal? Any thoughts?

I've heard of that in other states but not in NY. Depends on what type of land it is, and that can be complicated. Here in Long Island, we had a debate with the local reviewer and Groundspeak appeals people that went on for years about what was or wasn't a WMA. I've met DEC officers in the field who didn't know who, specifically, administered the land we were standing on. About the only thing you need a specific permit for around here is NY state parks. The permit is time limited but there is no charge.

We even have it in writing that you do not need a specific permit to hide caches on most DEC lands.

This didn't help you at all, did it?

Edited June 9, 2011 by hukilaulau

[Mr.Yuck]

Like to know if anyone has experience dealing with NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, either positive or negative. Specifically, I've been trying to get permission to place a cache in or around Frenchman's Island on Oneida Lake. I finally got a Temporary Revocable Permit emailed to me from an officer in the Cortland County Office. I felt great until I opened the email. There is a 25.00 fee, which I could pay. But the kicker is the liability insurance required,$100,000/300,000. What the heck! Is this normal? Any thoughts?

I've heard of that in other states but not in NY. Depends on what type of land it is, and that can be complicated. Here in Long Island, we had a debate with the local reviewer and Groundspeak appeals people that went on for years about what was or wasn't a WMA. I've met DEC officers in the field who didn't know who, specifically, administered the land we were standing on. About the only thing you need a specific permit for around here is NY state parks. The permit is time limited but there is no charge.

We even have it in writing that you do not need a specific permit to hide caches on most DEC lands.

This didn't help you at all, did it?

 

$25 fee and liability Insurance is news to this New Yawker too.

 

IBTMTTDMAF (In before the move to the dead Mid-Atlantic forum)

[grdhogeve]

Thanks for the input. Frenchman's Island status has changed over the years. Most recently it was an "undeveloped state park" overseen by NYS Parks. Several months ago, it became the jurisdiction of NYS DEC, and was lumped into the Toad Harbor WMA. The island is thick with trees and wildlife. It also has a unique history. Around 1800, it was home to a couple of nobility who fled the French Revolution. In the later 1800's, Frenchman's was a popular summer destination for the locals. Just an FYI.

[Mr.Yuck]

Thanks for the input. Frenchman's Island status has changed over the years. Most recently it was an "undeveloped state park" overseen by NYS Parks. Several months ago, it became the jurisdiction of NYS DEC, and was lumped into the Toad Harbor WMA. The island is thick with trees and wildlife. It also has a unique history. Around 1800, it was home to a couple of nobility who fled the French Revolution. In the later 1800's, Frenchman's was a popular summer destination for the locals. Just an FYI.

 

Interesting for sure! Well, I never heard of any of this liability carp. So this is now considered a WMA? The policy, best I know, is to have permission from "the local office", which you have. I don't know, you seem to have run into a mean guy in the local office. You sit pretty close to what I think would be the border between the Groundspeak NY Reviewers, but I would contact the reviewer who published your only cache, and see what they think about this shocking new development.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Since I also live the the State of NY, and not all that far from Onieda lake I thought I'd look into this a little more.

 

I started by just doing a search for "Geocaching" on the NY DEC website to see if I could find an official policy. I didn't come with anything but I did find a couple of interesting pages.

 

The first is an article written in 2005 for a publication associated with the DEC called "New York State Conservation". It was a well written article describing Geocaching (which they described as a GPS Adventure Game). The article presents a quite favorable view about geocaching, where it fits into the stewardship and public goals of the land managed by DEC. That page can be found here:

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/24032.html

 

The other page is part of a rather extensive DEC TV series of videos published on the site. It's actually one of the better "Introduction to Geocaching" videos that I've seen. Here is a link for it:

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/dectv/dectv105.html

 

There are several other pages and specific areas (for example Tuller Hill State Forest) that mention geocaching as an activity that takes place in that region.

 

I have to wonder if the person that was contacted by the OP knows anything about geocaching, and might not aware of what appears to be a favorable policy about geocaching.

 

While the site does present a favorable policy, things look a little less rosey when I did a search for "liability insurance" and came upon the page about the Temporary Revokable Permit (TRP) policy as described here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/51387.html

 

Of particular concern is Section II.B which describes the activities and uses of State land for which a TRP may be required:

B. Activities or Uses Which May be Permitted on State Lands.

 

The following are examples of activities or uses which may be allowed on State land under a temporary revocable permit. Each request or application for such a permit will be considered separately giving consideration to the limitations of the area and consistency with the management objectives and goals for the State lands involved.

 

1. Transportation of materials across State lands using existing roadways, farm roads, traditional beach access trails and the like.

2. Short-term ingress and egress to private property across State lands using existing roadways.

3. Projects or activities accomplished or sponsored by volunteer or student organizations or groups.

4. Maintenance of existing utility lines when work to be undertaken will have no significant impact on the area resources.

5. Training by and for military units and other short term military exercises.

6. Removal of dead or hazardous trees along roads, utility lines and private property boundaries.

7. Research projects related to the natural resources of the area, including those requiring approval of the State Museum.

8. Organized group recreational and/or sports activities.

9. Survey projects, including land, seismic, geodetic, and mineral surveys and the like, including those requiring approval of the State Museum.

 

Note item number 8. I could see how someone at DEC might consider geocaching to be an "organized group recreational and/or sports activity". I could also see a hiking club, Trout Unlimited flyfishing chapter, or pretty much any other outdoor recreation club that might use DEC lands to fit into that criteria as well. The way the TRP policy is written almost any organized group that want to use DEC land would require a TRP.

[+briansnat]

The NY DEC once had a ban on caches. They lifted it 5-6 years ago and as far as I know the only restrictions are a .25 mile minimum spacing and no caches on mountain peaks. In fact there was no requirement for permission or a permit. Funny thing this happened about the same time as the NY state parks implemented a permit system.

 

Unless there has been a sudden, unannounced policy change I'm sure the person you contacted is mininformed, but you really didn't need to ask anyway.

Edited June 11, 2011 by briansnat

[Mr.Yuck]

The NY DEC once had a ban on caches. They lifted it 5-6 years ago and as far as I know the only restrictions are a .25 mile minimum spacing and no caches on mountain peaks. In fact there was no requirement for permission or a permit. Funny thing this happened about the same time as the NY state parks implemented a permit system.

 

Unless there has been a sudden, unannounced policy change I'm sure the person you contacted is mininformed, but you really didn't need to ask anyway.

 

To clarify my post, if I read the OP's 2nd post correctly (and I could be wrong), this Island is now considered a Wildlife Management Area i.e. WMA. According to New York Admin's profile, written permission from the regional manager is required for a WMA placement. This is not a permit!!

There are a few real oldies in WMA's, but we were not allowed to place caches in them from about 2004-2010.

 

I agree, there is no requirement for permission or a permit on regular "DEC" lands, but best I can tell, WMA's are administered by the DEC. Confusing stuff, eh? Gotta love bureaucracy.

[+hukilaulau]

The NY DEC once had a ban on caches. They lifted it 5-6 years ago and as far as I know the only restrictions are a .25 mile minimum spacing and no caches on mountain peaks. In fact there was no requirement for permission or a permit. Funny thing this happened about the same time as the NY state parks implemented a permit system.

 

Unless there has been a sudden, unannounced policy change I'm sure the person you contacted is mininformed, but you really didn't need to ask anyway.

 

To clarify my post, if I read the OP's 2nd post correctly (and I could be wrong), this Island is now considered a Wildlife Management Area i.e. WMA. According to New York Admin's profile, written permission from the regional manager is required for a WMA placement. This is not a permit!!

There are a few real oldies in WMA's, but we were not allowed to place caches in them from about 2004-2010.

 

I agree, there is no requirement for permission or a permit on regular "DEC" lands, but best I can tell, WMA's are administered by the DEC. Confusing stuff, eh? Gotta love bureaucracy.

Yes, confusing. I believe WMA's are administered by Fish & Game.

[Keystone]

I am moving this thread from the Geocaching Topics forum to the Mid-Atlantic forum.

[+radak9]

IBTMTTDMAF (In before the move to the dead Mid-Atlantic forum)

Good call on that one

[sabrefan7]

Like to know if anyone has experience dealing with NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, either positive or negative. Specifically, I've been trying to get permission to place a cache in or around Frenchman's Island on Oneida Lake. I finally got a Temporary Revocable Permit emailed to me from an officer in the Cortland County Office. I felt great until I opened the email. There is a 25.00 fee, which I could pay. But the kicker is the liability insurance required,$100,000/300,000. What the heck! Is this normal? Any thoughts?

According to thisDEC WEB article on the DEC web site Frenchman's Island is a WMA and will need a letter of approval from the Region Wild Life Manager of region 7 I have a cache http://coord.info/GC29P3Z in a WMA in Region 8 and had a very good experience with the local manger. There is NO FEE required There is NO FEE required for the State Parks either but you must have a permit from the park manger. If I were you I would send an email to New York Admin Im sure they will be more than happy to help you

[+worstcaster]

I think each region's wildlife manager gets to set their own policy on placing a cache in their WMA. I placed one recently in the Bear Spring WMA in Walton. I got permission from the wildlife manager. There were no fees or liability insurance requirements. I had to send a map with the local and description of the cache. They did add a requirement that I must move the cache every 6 months to prevent soil and vegetation erosion. Each move to a new location has the be approved by the wildlife manager. If signs of soil or vegetation erosion do appear I must move the cache sooner.

[Mr.Yuck]

The NY DEC once had a ban on caches. They lifted it 5-6 years ago and as far as I know the only restrictions are a .25 mile minimum spacing and no caches on mountain peaks. In fact there was no requirement for permission or a permit. Funny thing this happened about the same time as the NY state parks implemented a permit system.

 

Unless there has been a sudden, unannounced policy change I'm sure the person you contacted is mininformed, but you really didn't need to ask anyway.

 

To clarify my post, if I read the OP's 2nd post correctly (and I could be wrong), this Island is now considered a Wildlife Management Area i.e. WMA. According to New York Admin's profile, written permission from the regional manager is required for a WMA placement. This is not a permit!!

There are a few real oldies in WMA's, but we were not allowed to place caches in them from about 2004-2010.

 

I agree, there is no requirement for permission or a permit on regular "DEC" lands, but best I can tell, WMA's are administered by the DEC. Confusing stuff, eh? Gotta love bureaucracy.

Yes, confusing. I believe WMA's are administered by Fish & Game.

 

Interesting. I'm depending on Mr. Cuomo to clean up this mess, and possibly save us some money in the process.

 

Bottom line, who has ever been asked to pay $25 to place a cache in New York? No one that I'm aware of. Pennsylvania, yes. And speaking of Pa., this whole thing reminds me of the zany, rogue State Gamelands Manager in NEPA in Pike County (Don't remember the SGA Number) who made up his own Geocaching policy a few years ago. I found one in there, before he went out and removed it himself.

 

EDIT: SGA #183 But apparently there was some education, and there are 7 caches in there now. Hopefully, the same will happen on this Island.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Mr.Yuck

[sabrefan7]

I think each region's wildlife manager gets to set their own policy on placing a cache in their WMA. I placed one recently in the Bear Spring WMA in Walton. I got permission from the wildlife manager. There were no fees or liability insurance requirements. I had to send a map with the local and description of the cache. They did add a requirement that I must move the cache every 6 months to prevent soil and vegetation erosion. Each move to a new location has the be approved by the wildlife manager. If signs of soil or vegetation erosion do appear I must move the cache sooner.

There is only one policy that they must follow. In every case its all about the impact on the area. In your case they area may be more "sensitive" so they will monitor the cache site more closely. With 9 regions you get 9 different mangers who will give you 9 different opinions on environmental impact

[grdhogeve]

Like to know if anyone has experience dealing with NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation, either positive or negative. Specifically, I've been trying to get permission to place a cache in or around Frenchman's Island on Oneida Lake. I finally got a Temporary Revocable Permit emailed to me from an officer in the Cortland County Office. I felt great until I opened the email. There is a 25.00 fee, which I could pay. But the kicker is the liability insurance required,$100,000/300,000. What the heck! Is this normal? Any thoughts?

According to thisDEC WEB article on the DEC web site Frenchman's Island is a WMA and will need a letter of approval from the Region Wild Life Manager of region 7 I have a cache http://coord.info/GC29P3Z in a WMA in Region 8 and had a very good experience with the local manger. There is NO FEE required There is NO FEE required for the State Parks either but you must have a permit from the park manger. If I were you I would send an email to New York Admin Im sure they will be more than happy to help you

 

Thanks to Sabrefan7 and all others for their input. I'm going to mail my paperwork to the national office of geocaching, only because some are questioning the accuracy of my statements. Perhaps some general policies can be established, as opposed to what seems to be pick and choose. This tadpole doesn't mind knocking heads with those who have been around. Before leaving, just wondering why this thread was moved.

[+briansnat]

...national office of geocaching...

 

There is such a place?

[sabrefan7]

...national office of geocaching...

 

There is such a place?

Like YOU dont know

[+Mark.B]

This is posted at most DEC trailheads (State Forests, Wild Forests, etc) I have had no problems placing caches on DEC forest land in the Hudson Valley, Catskills area of NY. WMA's are a different story.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regs/4081.html#12996

 

Look at Part 190: Use of State Lands Paragraph 8 Section w.1

 

w. No person shall erect, construct, install, maintain, store, discard or abandon any structure or any other property on State lands or subsequently use such structure or property on State lands, except if the structure or property is authorized by the department or is:

 

1. a geocache that is labeled with the owner's name and address and installed in a manner that does not disturb the natural conditions of the site or injure a tree;