Attributes... Mandatory?

[+cachechew]

Some caches have no attributes listed. Why is a reviewer delaying publishing mine because I disagree with him about wheelchair access? The cache is in a typical flat grassy cemetery about 15' off the road. He made me move it already which I did. Now he says I must add the wheelchair attribute. Any grass in a travel path is not wheelchair accessible in the literal ADAAG definition. The icon is not appropriate. Is this always how reviewers respond?

 

Additional info... The link sent to me by the reviewer http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

 

"What is the trail like?

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet. "

 

...Does not mention wheelchair access. I have since found the Geospeak rating that does mention wheelchair access but it does not really define it. Most able-bodied people do not understand that grass can be a problem for wheelchair users. Others linked me to handicaching.com which is a much better resource. Thanks for your comments.

Edited December 2, 2010 by cachechew

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Caches that have a Terrain Rating of 1.0 should be wheelchair accessible and thus should have the attribute.

 

Otherwise, change the rating to something higher.

 

And actually, the outdoor ADAAG standard is that the surface be firm and stable. Grass (and many other surfaces) can meet this standard.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

Edited December 1, 2010 by Isonzo Karst

[+briansnat]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

 

I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Oops, meant to quote your reply but hit edit.

 

Anyway, I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the wheelchair accessible attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

[+cachechew]

Caches that have a Terrain Rating of 1.0 should be wheelchair accessible and thus should have the attribute.

 

Otherwise, change the rating to something higher.

 

And actually, the outdoor ADAAG standard is that the surface be firm and stable. Grass (and many other surfaces) can meet this standard.

 

Thanks for your input, however, there are other factors that go into determining an ADAAG compliant surface. I have been making these determinations for over 15 years and working with people with disabilities to get more truly accessible pathways. For grass to be a truly ADAAG compliant travel path, it would have to approximate a flat, level putting green. Any growth or bump over 1/2" will make the surface non-compliant. The nature of grass is really much less stable than most able-bodied people realize. And all the little bumps that are inherrent with critter activity and a living/dying/always changing organism can be painful to roll across. The soil can also become a problem if it adheres to the tires or if it ruts from the compact weight of tire traffic. For these and about a thousand other reasons that get extrememly technical, it is very difficult to prove that grass is a consistently ADA-compliant surface.

 

Besides the travel path, reaching and opening the cache are other important considerations. To be truly accessible, these issues should also be part of the discussion. To really be handicap accessible, a person should be able to maneuver everything necessary with his/her elbows. Twisting caps and reaching high or low are very difficult with limited physical ability. Maybe there should be some additional attributes developed??

 

This topic is obviously very important to me. Wheelchair users should be able to rely on the handicap accessible attribute as meaning truly accessible. This is a great hobby that can bring joy to all. Thanks for the discussion and guidance.

[+cachechew]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

 

I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Oops, meant to quote your reply but hit edit.

 

Anyway, I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the wheelchair accessible attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

[+Isonzo Karst]

My first response seems a bit rude to me now.

 

I suspect that the issue here is that the terrain rating page isn't easy to find

 

Here's the link http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

 

and here's the definition of Terrain 1

 

Terrain Rating: 1

 

Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

[+cachechew]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

 

I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Oops, meant to quote your reply but hit edit.

 

Anyway, I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the wheelchair accessible attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Thanks for your input. My issue is more about a 1 terrain not really establishing ADA-compliant wheelchair accessibility. It is possible to have a 1 terrain and not be truly wheelchair accessible... Any grass in the travel path will usually not be an ADA-compliant surface. I did note in my cache description that this is in a cemetery with typical flat grassy path from the road to the cache.

 

I have apparently challenged the reviewer and he/she does not appreciate it. I am new to this hobby but I am a professional ADA consultant. I consider using the universal access (wheelchair) icon a very important , 100% ADA-compliant stamp. Lots of wheelchair users can manage 1 or 2 star terrains and they can figure it out for themselves. But putting the handicap icon on a cache with any grass in the travel path is probably deceptive for those of us who rely on the ADA standards in the rest of the world.

 

I am considering your advice... I woulld not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users. The wheelchair icon should only be applied when the entire travel path is 100% accessible 100% of the time. So I will likely change the terrain rating to appease the reviewer. But so many cemetery caches are terrain 1 without the icon... Argh! What a headache!

[+cachechew]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

 

I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Oops, meant to quote your reply but hit edit.

 

Anyway, I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the wheelchair accessible attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

[+cachechew]

Attributes are not mandatory. If the reviewer hangs onto the cache for more then a week, you could email appeals. (appeals@geocaching.com)

 

On the other hand, if I understand you, you're wanting to use terrain 1 on the cache, knowing that the cache isn't wheelchair accessible?

 

Why, so the wheelchair cachers can show up and figure out that (not wheelchair accessible) for themselves?

 

I'd suggest one of 2 things. Change the rating to 1.5, or use

 

 

I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Oops, meant to quote your reply but hit edit.

 

Anyway, I suggest changing it to 1.5 or adding the wheelchair accessible attribute. If the terrain is 1 it should be wheelchair accessible.

 

Thanks again for your further guidance. I read the terrain guidelines several times. I guess my issue lies with the terrain rating not considering the last few feet to the cache. That to me seems almost cruel. Thanks.

[+ILReviewer]

I took a look at the cache under review and the note posted by you and the reviewer. There are TWO issues listed in the reviewer note on the cache. The first issue looks like it has been resolved. The second issue is the 1 star terrain with no handicapped attribute.

 

From those notes I also see that you didn't follow the instructions (in red) at the bottom of the reviewer's last note as to how to contact your reviewer. Unless there is some offline communication that's not on the cache page that I'm not aware of, I'd suggest following that set of instructions and see where it goes from there.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I guess my issue lies with the terrain rating not considering the last few feet to the cache. That to me seems almost cruel. Thanks.

 

Agree, it's never made the slightest sense to me either....

 

Local to me is a chair bound cacher. She's out caching alone. She has full use of her upper body, and will partially lift herself up off the chair. She can reach higher then you might expect. But if she can't travel the last few feet , that's a DNF.

[+cachechew]

I took a look at the cache under review and the note posted by you and the reviewer. There are TWO issues listed in the reviewer note on the cache. The first issue looks like it has been resolved. The second issue is the 1 star terrain with no handicapped attribute.

 

From those notes I also see that you didn't follow the instructions (in red) at the bottom of the reviewer's last note as to how to contact your reviewer. Unless there is some offline communication that's not on the cache page that I'm not aware of, I'd suggest following that set of instructions and see where it goes from there.

 

I guess I do not understand what exactly you are writing about. I thought I did what I was supposed to... I wrote back to the reviewer and attempted to explain my position. What was I supposed to do differently? The cache looks active to me but archived by the reviewer, which means the reviewer can see it, right? I reread the reviewer's note and I guess I don't know what else I am supposed to do. I do not see where I have an "Enable cache" option. My most recent post to the reviewer has not been answered. But if you have read my posts, you must know that this is important to me. Your courtesy is appreciated.

 

So I just went back and left another note for the reviewer, "Please enable cache." Is this what you meant? Are reviewer communications supposed to go to email rather than cache logs?

Edited December 1, 2010 by cachechew

[+niraD]

FWIW, around here a terrain rating of 1.5 generally means "I'd rate it 1 star except some part of the route is not wheelchair accessible."

[+uxorious]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

[+Panther&Pine]

FWIW, around here a terrain rating of 1.5 generally means "I'd rate it 1 star except some part of the route is not wheelchair accessible."

I usually take a 1.5 to mean I can get to it with my cane without wanting to cry.

A 1 would mean I don't need to have my cane.

A 2 would mean I don't want to try it with my cane and I should wait for a better physical pain day.

[+cachechew]

FWIW, around here a terrain rating of 1.5 generally means "I'd rate it 1 star except some part of the route is not wheelchair accessible."

I usually take a 1.5 to mean I can get to it with my cane without wanting to cry.

A 1 would mean I don't need to have my cane.

A 2 would mean I don't want to try it with my cane and I should wait for a better physical pain day.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is in a cemetery. It's flat and grassy around the cache about 25' from the road. I think you would likely be able to get to this without any problems.

[+cachechew]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

[+Bear and Ragged]

You could rate it 1.5 and add the handicaching rating from the handicaching website...

 

Handicaching aims to improve the accessibility of Geocaching for disabled people all over the world.

 

By rating caches using a simple system, disabled geocachers can quickly find the caches they are able to do. Too often a 1 star or 2 star rated cache turns out to be impossible, causing disappointment. Our ratings aim to avoid that.

 

You can help by taking a few moments to quickly rate the caches you have visited!

 

For disabled geocachers we also provide tools and resources to find caches with ratings, find out what caches you will likely be able to do and a quick reference guide to the rating system.

[+dfx]

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time.

so it's not really a 1.0 terrain.

 

generally it's understood or implied that a terrain of 1.0 equals wheelchair accessible, which means that anything that is not really wheelchair accessible needs at least terrain 1.5, and anything that really is wheelchair accessible is terrain 1.0 and thus should have the attribute. i don't think it's spelled out anywhere like that, but that's how it usually works.

[+Chokecherry]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Chokecherry

[+Panther&Pine]

But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

Does the above bolded statement mean you are hiding your cache near a headstone or in the area around the cemetery ? I'd be worried that you may not have appropriate permission to hide a cache here or that the cache may encourage people to act in ill advised ways in a cemetery.

[+cachechew]

But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

Does the above bolded statement mean you are hiding your cache near a headstone or in the area around the cemetery ? I'd be worried that you may not have appropriate permission to hide a cache here or that the cache may encourage people to act in ill advised ways in a cemetery.

 

I didn't add the bold. And it's my family's burial plots. They all would think this is great. The cache is hung on a bush adjacent to their plots.

[+cachechew]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

 

I appreciate your frustration. I rated it based on the terrain guidelines as they are written.

[+Panther&Pine]

But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

Does the above bolded statement mean you are hiding your cache near a headstone or in the area around the cemetery ? I'd be worried that you may not have appropriate permission to hide a cache here or that the cache may encourage people to act in ill advised ways in a cemetery.

 

I didn't add the bold. And it's my family's burial plots. They all would think this is great. The cache is hung on a bush adjacent to their plots.

I added the bold. My concern is that many states and some areas have laws about what you can and can't do in a cemetery. You may own the plot but you may not have permission to place a cache there.

[+Chokecherry]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

 

I appreciate your frustration. I rated it based on the terrain guidelines as they are written.

 

As they are written a cache rated 1 must be handicapped accessible. You admitted that it has questionable accessibility. Then it's not a 1.

[+cachechew]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

 

I appreciate your frustration. I rated it based on the terrain guidelines as they are written.

 

As they are written a cache rated 1 must be handicapped accessible. You admitted that it has questionable accessibility. Then it's not a 1.

 

I have been looking at this rating system that the reviewer told me to use. There is no mention of handicap accessibility: http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

Geocache Rating System

Answer the following questions based on the most difficult parts of the cache:

 

I just did another search and found "http://support.Groundspeak.com//index.php?pg=kb.page&id=82" which says Handicap accessible."

 

This should be more consistent!!

[+niraD]

This should be more consistent!!

Might I suggest http://feedback.geocaching.com ?

[+cachechew]

You could rate it 1.5 and add the handicaching rating from the handicaching website...

 

Handicaching aims to improve the accessibility of Geocaching for disabled people all over the world.

 

By rating caches using a simple system, disabled geocachers can quickly find the caches they are able to do. Too often a 1 star or 2 star rated cache turns out to be impossible, causing disappointment. Our ratings aim to avoid that.

 

You can help by taking a few moments to quickly rate the caches you have visited!

 

For disabled geocachers we also provide tools and resources to find caches with ratings, find out what caches you will likely be able to do and a quick reference guide to the rating system.

 

This is EXCELLENT information. Thank you, thank you , thank you!!

[+Chokecherry]

That's always been one of my main issues with the Clayjar thing. It doesn't always match what is on the knowledgebook page for hiding caches mainly with the 1 and 5 terrain and difficulty caches.

[+cachechew]

You could rate it 1.5 and add the handicaching rating from the handicaching website...

 

Handicaching aims to improve the accessibility of Geocaching for disabled people all over the world.

 

By rating caches using a simple system, disabled geocachers can quickly find the caches they are able to do. Too often a 1 star or 2 star rated cache turns out to be impossible, causing disappointment. Our ratings aim to avoid that.

 

You can help by taking a few moments to quickly rate the caches you have visited!

 

For disabled geocachers we also provide tools and resources to find caches with ratings, find out what caches you will likely be able to do and a quick reference guide to the rating system.

 

This is EXCELLENT information. Thank you, thank you , thank you!!

[+cachechew]

This should be more consistent!!

Might I suggest http://feedback.geocaching.com ?

 

Thank you. I will carefully consider posting something in feedback.

[+Jenischmeni]

Personally speaking here, I am thrilled that the reviewers are finally cracking down on 1-star terrain ratings. My husband has mobility issues and it's quite frustrating to pick out a great cache for us to do only to find out that he cannot manage the terrain once we drive there. I know "back in the old days" they didn't rate them and there's still a lot of old junk out there with 1-star terrains. I also know that for whatever reasons, a cache owner will change their terrain back to a 1-star even when they were warned. I get really tired of posting on many of my logs "this cache is not wheelchair accessible."

 

Seriously? I honestly don't understand why so many owners keep insisting that their cache needs a 1-star terrain. It's not like 1.5 stars is some kiss of death or something. Most cachers are very mobile people and can handle 3, 4 or even 5 star terrains. (Myself included.) But to someone with mobility issues who is looking for caches that they can manage, it REALLY REALLY REALLY matters.

 

It's hard for me to not get angry when I read something like this. It's like someone is saying to me "Your husbands mobility issues are not important to me. I am more concerned that my cache have a 1-star terrain rating than I am worried about whether or not someone can navigate to my cache."

 

One of my caching buddies has a true 1-star terrain cache. She copied and pasted a cacher's log into her Facebook status. It was really neat to see how flattering he was that she had rated it appropriately (and used the attribute so he could filter it in his PQ). You could read the excitement in his voice that he was able to get this cache without his family assisting him. It's words like that that make you realize how important it really is.

 

I would think that if the OP's profession truly is in determining what meets ADA standards, it would be an easy peasy decision. Make it 1.5 stars if it's not wheelchair accessible.

[+t4e]

i had a the wish for a very long time that attributes be made mandatory, i suggested it and it was dismissed within minutes

[+Jenischmeni]

i had a the wish for a very long time that attributes be made mandatory, i suggested it and it was dismissed within minutes

 

Did you post that in the User Voice, t4e? I would certainly cast 3 votes your way!!!

[+cachechew]

Personally speaking here, I am thrilled that the reviewers are finally cracking down on 1-star terrain ratings. My husband has mobility issues and it's quite frustrating to pick out a great cache for us to do only to find out that he cannot manage the terrain once we drive there. I know "back in the old days" they didn't rate them and there's still a lot of old junk out there with 1-star terrains. I also know that for whatever reasons, a cache owner will change their terrain back to a 1-star even when they were warned. I get really tired of posting on many of my logs "this cache is not wheelchair accessible."

 

Seriously? I honestly don't understand why so many owners keep insisting that their cache needs a 1-star terrain. It's not like 1.5 stars is some kiss of death or something. Most cachers are very mobile people and can handle 3, 4 or even 5 star terrains. (Myself included.) But to someone with mobility issues who is looking for caches that they can manage, it REALLY REALLY REALLY matters.

 

It's hard for me to not get angry when I read something like this. It's like someone is saying to me "Your husbands mobility issues are not important to me. I am more concerned that my cache have a 1-star terrain rating than I am worried about whether or not someone can navigate to my cache."

 

One of my caching buddies has a true 1-star terrain cache. She copied and pasted a cacher's log into her Facebook status. It was really neat to see how flattering he was that she had rated it appropriately (and used the attribute so he could filter it in his PQ). You could read the excitement in his voice that he was able to get this cache without his family assisting him. It's words like that that make you realize how important it really is.

 

I would think that if the OP's profession truly is in determining what meets ADA standards, it would be an easy peasy decision. Make it 1.5 stars if it's not wheelchair accessible.

 

 

This was not about a reviewer cracking down. He published another cache in a hillier part of this location with a 1 star and the wheelchair icon. He said I should add the wheelchair icon and I refused. I was trying to point out that the location is NOT wheelchair accessible by ADA standards. And the rating link he sent me has no mention of accessibility. In fact, it says to ignore the last few feet!

Cut and pasted from this http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

What is the trail like?

How is the the most difficult part of the cache? If the cache is within a few feet of a trail, don't worry about the last few feet.

[/b]

I have since found the Groundspeak rating that does mention wheelchair access but most people don't realize that grass usually means problems for wheelchairs. I also was referred to handicaching.com which is much more useful.

 

I think the terrain ratings should be much more specific and consistent when discussing wheelchair access. I also think the cache container should be considered for true accessibility.

[+Jenischmeni]

I'd have to disagree with the statement "most people don't realize that grass usually means problems for wheelchairs." (Sorry too lazy to quote and edit.)

 

I think *most* people *do* realize this. I think *many* people are just too lazy to take the time to rate the terrain accordingly. Before you get defensive, I certainly do not mean you. (Obviously an appropriate terrain rating is important to you.) I just mean "many" other than you.

[+cachechew]

I'd have to disagree with the statement "most people don't realize that grass usually means problems for wheelchairs." (Sorry too lazy to quote and edit.)

 

I think *most* people *do* realize this. I think *many* people are just too lazy to take the time to rate the terrain accordingly. Before you get defensive, I certainly do not mean you. (Obviously an appropriate terrain rating is important to you.) I just mean "many" other than you.

 

I think it's just that unless you are around a wheelchair user or in a chair yourself, you do not give it much thought. That's why I think there should be a very clear definition of wheelchair accessible travel paths.

[+briansnat]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

 

I appreciate your frustration. I rated it based on the terrain guidelines as they are written.

 

As they are written a cache rated 1 must be handicapped accessible. You admitted that it has questionable accessibility. Then it's not a 1.

 

I have been looking at this rating system that the reviewer told me to use. There is no mention of handicap accessibility: http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

Geocache Rating System

Answer the following questions based on the most difficult parts of the cache:

 

I just did another search and found "http://support.Groundspeak.com//index.php?pg=kb.page&id=82" which says Handicap accessible."

 

This should be more consistent!!

 

If you fill out the info on that link you will see:

 

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

Edited December 2, 2010 by briansnat

[+cachechew]

I am considering your advice... I would not want to exclude wheelchairs because many could handle it most of the time -- it is a 1 terrain!!! And cemeteries are often "do-able" for most wheelchair users.

 

If many could handle it most of the time, it means many cannot handle it some of the time. If cemeteries are "often" do-able for most wheelchair users, sometimes they are not.

 

I don't know why you are fighting against raising the level to a 1 1/2 star. According to you, many could not handle it some of the time.

 

I have seen many cache pages that have said something to the effect of "cache is rated 1 1/2 stars because some wheelchair users may have trouble with it." That gives a heads up to those that know they may be able to handle a little harder terrain, they can go for it.

 

Just my humble opinion, if it is not wheelchair accessible to most wheelchair users, it should not be a 1.

 

Thanks for your insight. This is my first hide and the terrain meets the 1 star definition. This is not difficult terrain at all. But being a cemetery, it is grass around the cache. Grass is likely to be challenging for a wheelchair at some point. Also, the cemetery caches around here with similar proximity to the road are rated 1 star but not all have the wheelchair icon. I am just not comfortable adding the wheelchair icon if there is any part of the route that is not paved or a solid surface.

 

It's a 1 by the terrain definition but the presence of grass makes it not truly guaranteed wheelchair accessible 100% of the time. Thanks again.

 

Then it's not a 1 terrain if it's not accessible due to the grass. It's 1.5 I cache with someone with mobility issues so I rely heavily on accurate terrain ratings. It drives me endlessly nuts when soemone insists on rating something a 1 for terrain when it's not.

 

I appreciate your frustration. I rated it based on the terrain guidelines as they are written.

 

As they are written a cache rated 1 must be handicapped accessible. You admitted that it has questionable accessibility. Then it's not a 1.

 

I have been looking at this rating system that the reviewer told me to use. There is no mention of handicap accessibility: http://www.geocaching.com/hide/rate.aspx

Geocache Rating System

Answer the following questions based on the most difficult parts of the cache:

 

I just did another search and found "http://support.Groundspeak.com//index.php?pg=kb.page&id=82" which says Handicap accessible."

 

This should be more consistent!!

 

If you fill out the info on that link you will see:

 

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

 

Thanks for your input... My point remains that the criteria selections automatically give a 1 star the handicap accessible designation when this is not always the case. There exists a gap between the criteria resulting in a 1 star rating and whether or not it is truly 100% wheelchair accessible.

 

Any cache location with grass in the travel path should not result in a 1-star rating. But they do. This was very confusing to me.

 

The handicache website has better clarity.

[mtbikernate]

The geocaching suggested terrain ratings do not reflect ADA standards. I know enough about ADA standards to know that the average folk will not easily be able to accurately rate a cache based on those standards. Want to talk complicated? Ugh.

 

I have a 1-star cache. It is about 3-4ft from the street (quiet dead-end residential road) which is smooth and well-paved. Access is shoulder height when seated (roughly) though it does require some manual dexterity to access.

 

The GC ratings put it as a 1-star cache, but the handicaching ratings provide further detail about the cache's accessibility for folks who have concerns about accessibility. I rated my cache with the handicaching system and provided that info on the cache page.

[+SeekerOfTheWay]

I'd have to disagree with the statement "most people don't realize that grass usually means problems for wheelchairs." (Sorry too lazy to quote and edit.)

 

I think *most* people *do* realize this. I think *many* people are just too lazy to take the time to rate the terrain accordingly. Before you get defensive, I certainly do not mean you. (Obviously an appropriate terrain rating is important to you.) I just mean "many" other than you.

 

I think it's just that unless you are around a wheelchair user or in a chair yourself, you do not give it much thought. That's why I think there should be a very clear definition of wheelchair accessible travel paths.

 

I know this is true in my case. I have easy terrain on a few of my caches (wide paths, packed sand or pine needles) but I never rated any a 1 simply because I have NO IDEA what a wheelchair is capable of. Nor do I know the limitations of someone in a wheel chair.

 

I do the same thing with the stroller attribute. I don't use it because how do I know what a stroller can roll over?

 

If a potential wheelchair bound person wanted to know for sure if they could do my caches, I'd email them in detail and send pics of the terrain so they can decide for themselves.

 

I don't feel comfortable making that decision because of my ignorance on the matter.