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Juicepig

the Gloriousness of Wally world hides..

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the fact remains that in the absence of proper signage i am legally allowed to be on that property

for all i know the person claiming to be the land owner can very well be one of the homeless that lives in there

it could also be just someone that lives in that apartment building and takes it upon themselves to try and impose rules

 

Yes, you may be legally allowed. That doesn't mean it's advisable.

 

Geocaching does not benefit much once we start arguing with people who present themselves as landowners. The fact of the matter is, that once someone identifies themselves as a landowner you have no way to properly identify them as such unless we're going to start heading into the woods with town surveys, and landowners are going to start showing their property deeds to random strangers in their back yard.

 

Do you really want to escalate a situation like that?

 

We had a woman putting pylons out across 10th line, Halton Hills to prevent people from accessing the Bruce Trail. She didn't own the road, or the property but got in people's faces. Sure you can knuckle down, call the police in and assert your right to cross that property. That isn't going to endear cachers to anyone.

 

When the police show up it's a group of strange people in a woodlot arguing with a nearby resident. It sure won't be fun, and that's why I thought people were geocaching - to have fun, not to test and enforce public/private property issues.

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i get the whole idea that some are trying to present here, and i said i agree in general terms but there's also the other side of the coin, which i presented

 

do i want to escalate a bad situation and bring a bad name to geocaching?

 

NO

 

personally i have not encountered any land owner yet that asked me to leave the property

 

but the fact that someone comes out yelling and screaming does nothing to intimidate me

 

if i know i have a right to be there and i am not breaking any laws/rules i will continue on my merry way and not respond to any provocation by arguing with them

 

 

Yes, you may be legally allowed. That doesn't mean it's advisable.

 

 

to me a law is made to draw the line of what is advisable or not

Edited by t4e

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Well, the region of Waterloo has an online GIS, just like most every other municipality in the US and Canada. Except I personally can't get the ownership information to display for me tonight, as you can see by the error on the left-hand side of my pic below. There is no way in heck these woods are public property, and I'd go with whoever owns the nearby 11 story apartment building. If the crazy lady was from the nearby cul-de-sac, she's probably wrong. Either way, a random woodlot in a City is probably not public property, and is probably not suitable for Geocaching. My "X" of course, is an approximation.

 

1e784d38-ef50-4e57-8507-564c0d90f290.jpg

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you missed post#142

 

Not really. I mean we can take this to the extreme, and I need to put posted signs up around my 100 ft. x 400 ft. lot in the suburbs. The parking lot and property of my place of employment not posted. No one has ever tried to put a micro in our parking lot. Someone did at Wal-Mart Canada corporate HQ though. :)

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you missed post#142

 

Not really. I mean we can take this to the extreme, and I need to put posted signs up around my 100 ft. x 400 ft. lot in the suburbs. The parking lot and property of my place of employment not posted. No one has ever tried to put a micro in our parking lot. Someone did at Wal-Mart Canada corporate HQ though. :)

 

Guess what. The Wal Mart people DID.

 

Google Street View - what's that sign on the right hand side of the driveway I wonder.

 

Now to go pick up some NO TRESPASSING signs for my 18' suburban lot.

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you missed post#142

 

Not really. I mean we can take this to the extreme, and I need to put posted signs up around my 100 ft. x 400 ft. lot in the suburbs. The parking lot and property of my place of employment not posted. No one has ever tried to put a micro in our parking lot. Someone did at Wal-Mart Canada corporate HQ though. :)

 

Guess what. The Wal Mart people DID.

 

Google Street View - what's that sign on the right hand side of the driveway I wonder.

 

Now to go pick up some NO TRESPASSING signs for my 18' suburban lot.

 

I've tried firefox and Google Chrome, and I can't read it.

 

We must be losing something in the english to metric conversion. An 18 foot lot is really, really small. ;)

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you missed post#142

 

Not really. I mean we can take this to the extreme, and I need to put posted signs up around my 100 ft. x 400 ft. lot in the suburbs. The parking lot and property of my place of employment not posted. No one has ever tried to put a micro in our parking lot. Someone did at Wal-Mart Canada corporate HQ though. :)

 

Guess what. The Wal Mart people DID.

 

Google Street View - what's that sign on the right hand side of the driveway I wonder.

 

Now to go pick up some NO TRESPASSING signs for my 18' suburban lot.

 

I've tried firefox and Google Chrome, and I can't read it.

 

We must be losing something in the english to metric conversion. An 18 foot lot is really, really small. ;)

 

It's a blurry sign on Street View, but I'm pointing out that it is there. It basically says "Private Property" in legalese. If this thread keeps up I might just go by and snap a photo of it on the way home from work.

 

As for the lot, yeah it's a townhouse lot - nobody's going to confuse it with a mansion... But I'm sure I'll come home one night and find a bunch of geocachers sitting up there in my maple tree, telling me they can do that because I forgot to post a sign.

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the fact remains that in the absence of proper signage i am legally allowed to be on that property..

 

And YOU are making Geocachers look bad by not making the local people happy regardless if they are right or wrong... That is the point of this discussion. It is NOT about what is legal. It is about having the general public see us as good. All that it takes is ONE bad experience with the coorect person to have an area closed off to all of us forever.

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well it is the point, technically except for crown land every piece of land is owned by someone...

 

No idea about Ontario....but here there are Provincial and municipal public lands as well. Here in Calgary, the city ADVOCATES geocaching on the city PUBLIC land. The Province is working on a policy and reviews each cache individually at this time, but is not overtly restrictive.

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you missed post#142

 

Not really. I mean we can take this to the extreme, and I need to put posted signs up around my 100 ft. x 400 ft. lot in the suburbs. The parking lot and property of my place of employment not posted. No one has ever tried to put a micro in our parking lot. Someone did at Wal-Mart Canada corporate HQ though. :)

 

Guess what. The Wal Mart people DID.

 

Google Street View - what's that sign on the right hand side of the driveway I wonder.

 

Now to go pick up some NO TRESPASSING signs for my 18' suburban lot.

 

I've tried firefox and Google Chrome, and I can't read it.

 

We must be losing something in the english to metric conversion. An 18 foot lot is really, really small. :D

 

It's a blurry sign on Street View, but I'm pointing out that it is there. It basically says "Private Property" in legalese. If this thread keeps up I might just go by and snap a photo of it on the way home from work.

 

As for the lot, yeah it's a townhouse lot - nobody's going to confuse it with a mansion... But I'm sure I'll come home one night and find a bunch of geocachers sitting up there in my maple tree, telling me they can do that because I forgot to post a sign.

 

I'm having a hard time telling if you're with me, or against me. B) So there's a no tresspassing sign at Wally World Canada Corporate HQ. Why did 73 people (you included) find this cache?

 

Some posters to this thread seem to think we can do anything we want on someone's private property in Ontario, as long as there is not a posted sign. I mean seriously. If I own an apartment building in the City of Waterloo, do I really need to post the woods behind it? Else people are going to play games on it? Can they play paintball on it, and splattter paint all over the trees and ground? Can I pitch a tent and live there? Can I set up a Meth lab in the woods? Ok, probably not a good example, Meth labs are illegal. ;)

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I'm having a hard time telling if you're with me, or against me. ;) So there's a no tresspassing sign at Wally World Canada Corporate HQ. Why did 73 people (you included) find this cache?

 

Some posters to this thread seem to think we can do anything we want on someone's private property in Ontario, as long as there is not a posted sign. I mean seriously. If I own an apartment building in the City of Waterloo, do I really need to post the woods behind it? Else people are going to play games on it? Can they play paintball on it, and splattter paint all over the trees and ground? Can I pitch a tent and live there? Can I set up a Meth lab in the woods? Ok, probably not a good example, Meth labs are illegal. :)

 

I actually stopped at the sign, pondered it for a minute, and decided the cache owner must have permission. In hindsight that was the wrong decision. That's the problem with our current system:

 

- Cache owner submits listing, checking a box on a click-thru like agreement

- Cache reviewer assumes permission based on listing making it past the two check boxes at the bottom of the submit form

- Cache seeker assumes permission based on active listing.

 

- Land owner assumes bomb based on strange package in spruce tree of unknown strategic value to terrorists.

 

I also suspect that the Internet version of the trespass to property laws being bantered about here in this forum are not 100% aligned with those laws as applied in the Ontario court system. I'm not in a hurry to be the one standing there in the defendant's box to find out.

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the fact remains that in the absence of proper signage i am legally allowed to be on that property..

 

And YOU are making Geocachers look bad by not making the local people happy regardless if they are right or wrong... That is the point of this discussion. It is NOT about what is legal. It is about having the general public see us as good. All that it takes is ONE bad experience with the coorect person to have an area closed off to all of us forever.

 

please don't point fingers at me, i haven't done anything to make geocachers look bad

 

 

Some posters to this thread seem to think we can do anything we want on someone's private property in Ontario, as long as there is not a posted sign. I mean seriously. If I own an apartment building in the City of Waterloo, do I really need to post the woods behind it? Else people are going to play games on it? Can they play paintball on it, and splattter paint all over the trees and ground? Can I pitch a tent and live there? Can I set up a Meth lab in the woods? Ok, probably not a good example, Meth labs are illegal. :)

 

simple answers is YES

you haven't been to the area, i live here....that woodlot is quite a distance from the building and is not exactly obvious to whom it belongs

Edited by t4e

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you haven't been to the area, i live here....that woodlot is quite a distance from the building and is not exactly obvious to whom it belongs

 

I have one very simple question that can be answered yes or no.

 

Had you encountered the lady at that location, under the same circumstances as the group did, (that is to say, she came out, told you it was private property and asked you to leave), would you have continued on to find the cache? Yes or No?

 

.

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you haven't been to the area, i live here....that woodlot is quite a distance from the building and is not exactly obvious to whom it belongs

 

I have one very simple question that can be answered yes or no.

 

Had you encountered the lady at that location, under the same circumstances as the group did, (that is to say, she came out, told you it was private property and asked you to leave), would you have continued on to find the cache? Yes or No?

 

.

 

NO

 

but i would try to have a civilized conversation with her and explain why i'm there

most people have no problem with geocachers, they are just sick of those that come and wreck the place and assume that anyone that goes in the woods does so for questionable reasons

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...i haven't done anything to make geocachers look bad

 

OK, but you are encouraging others.

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you haven't been to the area, i live here....that woodlot is quite a distance from the building and is not exactly obvious to whom it belongs

 

I have one very simple question that can be answered yes or no.

 

Had you encountered the lady at that location, under the same circumstances as the group did, (that is to say, she came out, told you it was private property and asked you to leave), would you have continued on to find the cache? Yes or No?

 

.

 

NO

 

but i would try to have a civilized conversation with her and explain why i'm there

most people have no problem with geocachers, they are just sick of those that come and wreck the place and assume that anyone that goes in the woods does so for questionable reasons

 

Thank you. I think that would be the approach of the majority of the geocachers.

 

The incident does highlight what I think will become an ever increasing problem as geocaching continues to grow at an almost exponential rate. In the last couple years we see:

 

(1) Caches being published at a record setting rate. The potential for 'private property' caches is higher.

 

(2) Caches are being found by a much larger number of people. This means any cache location is subjected to a great deal more human traffic. And it means the activity is more obvious to area residents.

 

(3) Cachers are more frequently caching in packs and there is nothing wrong with that. However, it means increased potential impact to a cache location. And, for local residents, a bunch of cars filled with people can be more annoying that one or two people in a single vehicle.

 

(4) Cachers are getting creative in their hides. While this is a really fun aspect of the game, it also means that a cache location can take quite a beating as cachers try to find the needle in a haystack.

 

Geocaching is evolving, as all activities are prone to do. With that evolution comes growing pains.

 

I see this as an excellent opportunity for a province wide organization such as OGA to take the initiative and create a geocaching seminar that could be presented on a regular basis at events. As new cachers come out to events, they have the opportunity to sit through a short presentation on some do's and don'ts of caching.

 

.

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i like the idea of Seminars to educate new cachers, unfortunately most are not even aware of Events, and if they are not PM chances of finding the events are even lower, and even being a PM most are not aware of the "notification" feature

some cachers don't even frequent the forums

 

i think its quite difficult to reach out to so many people, but definitely worth a try

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i like the idea of Seminars to educate new cachers, unfortunately most are not even aware of Events, and if they are not PM chances of finding the events are even lower, and even being a PM most are not aware of the "notification" feature

some cachers don't even frequent the forums

 

i think its quite difficult to reach out to so many people, but definitely worth a try

 

We need to get creative.

 

Cache owners can email newbie finders of their caches inviting them to a local event . I think that was suggested in another thread. I attended my first events (back in the last century) as a result of invites from Tony.

 

Cache owners can include some event pointers, perhaps, in the description when a cache is first published. Maybe FTF prizes have to be picked up at an event.

 

The cache container can contain some info.

 

Not sure if these suggestions are problematic but I do know that geocachers are some of the brightest people in the community and, if we collectively brainstorm, we can figure something out.

 

The key is to always look at the positive side of caching and people. :P

 

.

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i like the idea of Seminars to educate new cachers, unfortunately most are not even aware of Events, and if they are not PM chances of finding the events are even lower, and even being a PM most are not aware of the "notification" feature

some cachers don't even frequent the forums

 

i think its quite difficult to reach out to so many people, but definitely worth a try

 

We need to get creative.

 

Cache owners can email newbie finders of their caches inviting them to a local event . I think that was suggested in another thread. I attended my first events (back in the last century) as a result of invites from Tony.

 

Cache owners can include some event pointers, perhaps, in the description when a cache is first published. Maybe FTF prizes have to be picked up at an event.

 

The cache container can contain some info.

 

Not sure if these suggestions are problematic but I do know that geocachers are some of the brightest people in the community and, if we collectively brainstorm, we can figure something out.

 

The key is to always look at the positive side of caching and people. :P

 

.

 

What we NEED is for Groundspeak to "intercept" new cache hiders. When someone goes to hide their first cache, we should have them directed to some resources to learn about hiding a cache. This could include notifying the cacher about upcoming local events, or perhaps the reviewers can email the cache owners with a "hello, and welcome to caching" type message when it's their first submission.

 

Relying on the community to spot a new cacher and intervene to educate is pretty much guaranteed to fail. The single point of contact in all of this is geocaching.com - and they really need to promote the local groups as resources for new geocachers. Seriously.

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the only problem i see with emailing is that some can see it as SPAM

 

and some will take the attitude "who are you to tell me what to do?"

 

there's quite a few in our area that currently have more hides than finds and haven't learned a single thing from previous mistakes and ignored any advice given

 

i think the problem with cache placements in inappropriate locations steams more from the new cachers that once they found a few they want to place their own, and the eagerness is quite understandable but the fact that they haven't yet gone out there to find a larger variety of caches makes it hard to figure out what's acceptable or not

 

i am not in favor of putting restrictions on anyone but some kind of compromise should be reached that would somehow ensure that new cachers have more experience before they start putting caches out there

 

i hope i am making sense here

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What we NEED is for Groundspeak to "intercept" new cache hiders. When someone goes to hide their first cache, we should have them directed to some resources to learn about hiding a cache. This could include notifying the cacher about upcoming local events, or perhaps the reviewers can email the cache owners with a "hello, and welcome to caching" type message when it's their first submission.

 

Relying on the community to spot a new cacher and intervene to educate is pretty much guaranteed to fail. The single point of contact in all of this is geocaching.com - and they really need to promote the local groups as resources for new geocachers. Seriously.

 

t4e:

i am not in favor of putting restrictions on anyone but some kind of compromise should be reached that would somehow ensure that new cachers have more experience before they start putting caches out there

 

I agree. It's seems the time has arrived for a few light restrictions and interventions that help to encourage better hides, a better chance that COs understand the hobby, the responsibilities, and are commited to cache ownership before hiding caches.

 

If there were a "welcome to caching" message for new COs have it include links to local caching associations, and a link to the Cache Ownership chapter in Knowledge Books.

Edited by Lone R

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One of the unfortunate byproducts of the "numbers race" is that countless people go out and find badly hidden caches. A smiley is a smiley. If a CO placed a lousy cache and no one bothered to find it, they might get the message.

 

There are several local cachers that I totally ignore because their first caches were:

 

(1) not placed when they published

(2) questionable location.

(3) inaccurate coordinates

(4) terrible container (i.e. a ziploc bag for the container)

(5) etc. etc. etc.

 

However, they don't know I am ignoring their cache. And even if they did, the probably wouldn't care because 150 other people are out there finding it. How often do you see a log complaining about the hide, location etc. but they still log the find and move on?

 

On the flip side, there are some excellent new cachers. A guy named fangly fish in Aurora comes to mind. While fairly new to caching, he has created some very clever hides, a couple of very interesting earthcaches, and several challenges. But, the interesting point here is that he has actively sought out a few veterans and asked advice on his caches and challenges.

 

So, there is no easy answer to the burgeoning challenges of geocaching. But there are some good ideas.

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How often do you see a log complaining about the hide, location etc. but they still log the find and move on?

 

 

i always complained and always will even though some don't like it

in fact i complained on one that was hidden few meters behind a very clear "Private Property" sign

within minutes of my log i got 5 emails from other cachers, not the CO, telling me that that is not a nice log and will discourage the CO considering this was their first hide

 

while i am not bothered by such emails, other cachers refrain from complaining to avoid such confrontation or so that they don't hurt the CO's feelings

Edited by t4e

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Our local group does hold a monthly workshop, well attend by newbies where we answer questions and share info. It is common for a local to email a new cacher and point them to the local info again where questions are asked and answered. They are also invited out caching as there is a regular Saturday group. Our monthly has had an officer of the Ottawa bomb squad attend where discussions and visuals on good and bad containers were shared and concerns talked about. Is it perfect? no. Does it help? yes. We know that we will never be able to reach all the new cachers in the area, especially before they placed their first cache. We also know that the more we talk and reach out the more informed people are and they tell others. I have asked newbies at the workshop how they found us, to find that the local outdoor stores send them to the workshop to learn about GPS skills and geocaching. The workshop has enough cachers who have been around for a while and have experience to guide the newbies on what works and does not work.

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How often do you see a log complaining about the hide, location etc. but they still log the find and move on?

 

 

i always complained and always will even though some don't like it

in fact i complained on one that was hidden few meters behind a very clear "Private Property" sign

within minutes of my log i got 5 emails from other cachers, not the CO, telling me that that is not a nice log and will discourage the CO considering this was their first hide

 

while i am not bothered by such emails, other cachers refrain from complaining to avoid such confrontation or so that they don't hurt the CO's feelings

 

Hear hear. I think constructive criticism is the only way to go. As Tequila said, not logging the find serves little purpose. The CO doesn't know you aren't logging the the cache because you find the hide objectionable. The only way that a CO may learn and produce better hides is by expressing dissatisfaction in the logs.

 

I've also experienced what t4e has from a subsequent finder who thought my comment about the terrain rating being too low - 1.5 stars for 70+ meters of bushwacking through thick forest vegetation and fallen logs and branches, and my suggestion that the remote spot could easily support a larger water tight cache (the container was a 3" square dollar store container with no gasket - damp logsheet inside), was met with "I often wonder why people leave snide remarks in the cache rather than finding the positive in the effort put forth by cache owners". Well, I check back a month later and lo & behold, the CO upped the terrain to 3.5 stars, and replaced the leaky dollar store container with an ammo can! How great is that? I am a firm believer in constructive criticism.

Edited by Lone R

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Our local group does hold a monthly workshop, well attend by newbies where we answer questions and share info. It is common for a local to email a new cacher and point them to the local info again where questions are asked and answered. They are also invited out caching as there is a regular Saturday group. Our monthly has had an officer of the Ottawa bomb squad attend where discussions and visuals on good and bad containers were shared and concerns talked about. Is it perfect? no. Does it help? yes. We know that we will never be able to reach all the new cachers in the area, especially before they placed their first cache. We also know that the more we talk and reach out the more informed people are and they tell others. I have asked newbies at the workshop how they found us, to find that the local outdoor stores send them to the workshop to learn about GPS skills and geocaching. The workshop has enough cachers who have been around for a while and have experience to guide the newbies on what works and does not work.

 

Well said. And what a great idea to have outdoors stores point the customers to your group.

 

This is the kind of positive suggestions that will help. And as you say, we will never be perfect. But we can be better.

 

Thanks for sharing.

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Our local group does hold a monthly workshop, well attend by newbies where we answer questions and share info. It is common for a local to email a new cacher and point them to the local info again where questions are asked and answered. They are also invited out caching as there is a regular Saturday group. Our monthly has had an officer of the Ottawa bomb squad attend where discussions and visuals on good and bad containers were shared and concerns talked about. Is it perfect? no. Does it help? yes. We know that we will never be able to reach all the new cachers in the area, especially before they placed their first cache. We also know that the more we talk and reach out the more informed people are and they tell others. I have asked newbies at the workshop how they found us, to find that the local outdoor stores send them to the workshop to learn about GPS skills and geocaching. The workshop has enough cachers who have been around for a while and have experience to guide the newbies on what works and does not work.

 

Well said. And what a great idea to have outdoors stores point the customers to your group.

 

This is the kind of positive suggestions that will help. And as you say, we will never be perfect. But we can be better.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Totally agree. I'm game if anyone wants to get together and get something like this going for the Toronto Area.

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Totally agree. I'm game if anyone wants to get together and get something like this going for the Toronto Area.

 

To that effect, I've setup a thread on the TAG website to talk about a Toronto Geocaching Workshop series.

Edited by northernpenguin

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However, they don't know I am ignoring their cache. And even if they did, the probably wouldn't care because 150 other people are out there finding it. How often do you see a log complaining about the hide, location etc. but they still log the find and move on?

 

All too often I see the exact opposite happening. I don't know how many times I have found caches which are in locations I consider "less than ideal" or hidden in questionable containers. Yet, when I read the previous logs I see comments like "Great hide." or "Nice spot."

 

I just assume that as more cachers join the hobby the standard goes down and I become more and more of a "cache snob".

 

As for the topic (more or less) -- I have walked away from many caches because I felt the location was likely going to get me in trouble with the people in the local area, regardless of whether they are the legal owners of the property or not. Even if the land is public, that doesn't mean it's a good spot for a cache -- I wish more hiders would keep this in mind. It's one of the big reasons I do less and less caching in urban areas.

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Back in 2007 I participated in an event for Geocaching newbies, held in conjunction with our Parks and Rec department. Part of the class was to break into groups, go hide some temporary caches and then get the other groups to go out and find them.

 

While doing the hide with my group, one of the things I emphasized was good cache placement. They wanted to stash the cache under a bush right next to a major walking pathway. I asked them questions like:

 

-- Do you think there is a high likelyhood of someone spotting the cache and stealing it?

-- What do you think it would like to a passerby if they saw someone rummaging around in that bush? Would it be suspicious?

-- If someone were to spot that container in that spot would they be likely to think it is a bomb or something placed with malicious intent?

-- How do you think someone would feel about hunting for this cache with all these people walking by?

 

Was the event a success? I think we had 20 adults and a bunch of their children attend. Out of those, only three ever bothered to create Geocaching.com accounts. Maybe not much of a success rate?

 

Out of those three, all of them are still active cachers, having logged close to 1000 caches between them. That's pretty good success.

 

The three have combined to hide 11 caches, of which only two have had to be archived. That's pretty good, I think.

 

I'd like to think by giving them some basic background and guidelines, beyond what is on the website, we were able to get ahead of the curve and maybe weed out some people and also help those who did become cachers hide better caches than they may have on their own. It certainly is easier to get people thinking about hiding "good"caches BEFORE their first hide than it is to try and correct them after the fact.

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I'm having a hard time telling if you're with me, or against me. :rolleyes: So there's a no tresspassing sign at Wally World Canada Corporate HQ. Why did 73 people (you included) find this cache?

 

Some posters to this thread seem to think we can do anything we want on someone's private property in Ontario, as long as there is not a posted sign. I mean seriously. If I own an apartment building in the City of Waterloo, do I really need to post the woods behind it? Else people are going to play games on it? Can they play paintball on it, and splattter paint all over the trees and ground? Can I pitch a tent and live there? Can I set up a Meth lab in the woods? Ok, probably not a good example, Meth labs are illegal. :rolleyes:

 

I actually stopped at the sign, pondered it for a minute, and decided the cache owner must have permission. In hindsight that was the wrong decision. That's the problem with our current system:

 

- Cache owner submits listing, checking a box on a click-thru like agreement

- Cache reviewer assumes permission based on listing making it past the two check boxes at the bottom of the submit form

- Cache seeker assumes permission based on active listing.

 

- Land owner assumes bomb based on strange package in spruce tree of unknown strategic value to terrorists.

 

I also suspect that the Internet version of the trespass to property laws being bantered about here in this forum are not 100% aligned with those laws as applied in the Ontario court system. I'm not in a hurry to be the one standing there in the defendant's box to find out.

 

Well, this thead has really taken off in another, yet still mostly on-topic direction since I last replied. But I can't argue with this. You, a very experienced cacher, assumed permission, just like a reviewer would. And the masses of less experienced cachers probably didn't think it through that much, but probably figured, "hey, it's listed on the website, it's fine". :rolleyes:

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Related to the placement at Wal-Mart Canada's Head Office, as well as others placed in this same general way.

 

If there were signs stating in some form of legalese that access to the immediate area was governed by a permission aspect then it would be common to assume that the general public is not supposed to be there. If the cache owner has obtained permission to override the permission aspect then that should be documented by them within the listing to let people that hope to find the cache know they are safe to enter.

 

If that is not the case, the seeker should not enter such property and the cache owner should be contacted about the issue in the hopes that they have adequate permission and will update the listing to reflect it, or obtain the permission they should have gotten in the first place and if obtained then update the listing, or archive the listing. If the CO is unresponsive or otherwise, or if the seeker wishes to have a local reviewer address the problem them the seeker should contact the local reviewer directly about the issue.

 

Signage should not be ignored based on an assumption. You would have no recourse. In an ideal world, the cache owner would list the entity that granted permission in the listing and the seeker would be able to show that to any LEO or other interested party. Reviewers can publish based on assumed permission because we are not actually there, but when a seeker is there then they can read the signage for themselves.

 

:yikes: CD

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Well, I'm definately learning alot from this topic!!!! Will definately take more time and care when placing a cache.

 

I know that alot of people don't like urban caches, and hey....that's ok. I don't like Liver, so i don't eat it. I like urbans, because they add a bit of excitement to the search. Yes, it can look suspicious to the regular joe public.....especially in possible high profile areas (ie corporate HQ's etc....).

 

When hiding my cache, I used the generic geocache log sheet identifing the game, but the outside of the cache was not identifiable. If the police or employees saw the words "Geocache" on it, this situation would have been resolved a little easier. The only reason they knew it was a geocache, was that the log sheet survived the explosion.

 

I like the idea of workshops for newbs. I myself, starting out, only learned some of the real issues while out on the hunt. Maybe a booth at the Strretsville Bread and Honey festival, showing off the sport, taking small groups on a quick hunt on the grounds to understand it .....could it work? Maybe.

 

Getting in touch with local law enforcement, identifying the game .....definately a good idea.

 

As for the sign at WM HQ......It doesn't read "Private Property". That would have stopped me from placing the cache.

The sign did however read something to the effect of "this parking lot is for the use of WM employees and Visitor's only. All other vehicles will be tagged or towed at the owner's expense."

 

I have learned my lesson, and FYI.....I have apologized for the incident.

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I like the idea of workshops for newbs. I myself, starting out, only learned some of the real issues while out on the hunt. Maybe a booth at the Strretsville Bread and Honey festival, showing off the sport, taking small groups on a quick hunt on the grounds to understand it .....could it work? Maybe.

 

Getting in touch with local law enforcement, identifying the game .....definately a good idea.

 

As for the sign at WM HQ......It doesn't read "Private Property". That would have stopped me from placing the cache.

The sign did however read something to the effect of "this parking lot is for the use of WM employees and Visitor's only. All other vehicles will be tagged or towed at the owner's expense."

 

I have learned my lesson, and FYI.....I have apologized for the incident.

 

I hope the talk about creating workshops and events get carried through. As we encountered yesterday, not all police in all communities know about geocaching...one did and the other didn't. A group of 20 middle aged adults and a baby (I think she was the ringleader) sure caught their attention yesterday. Atleast once they find out what cachers are up to, they are really good about the sport and tell us to have fun.

 

Interestingly there are atleast 3 other caches hidden very near by (like within a KM or so) that are hidden in similar types of private property as the one at Walmart HQ. One I refuse to stop and get, while the other 2 I have found including at the private baseball diamond of Dupont.

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As a somewhat related follow-up to this story on a broad range

 

Wal-Mart joins Homeland Security

 

While this is an initiative in the United States it would be likely that any such policies would be applied in Canada as well. The included video from US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano is to the point.

 

This forum post is no way intended to suggest any required action is needed with respect to existing caches on or near Wal-Mart properties. There has been no indication of anything similar to the removal of existing "Off Yer Rocker" series placed at various Cracker Barrel locations in areas of the United States.

 

Cache Placers may still use their own discretion when placing caches in the area of "assumed permission" if they feel that they do adequately have it, and Cache Reviewers will still question or insist on verification of permission from Cache Placers when deemed necessary. This is consistent with the approach I would like to believe all Canadian Reviewers have used.

 

:) CD

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Not funny at all. Caches placed on private property without permission are just one of the things that are eventually going to screw up this sport/hobby for all of us. Add this to the destruction of ornamental shrubs/bushes while cachers are searching and numerous other negatives and we have a major problem.

Every time we raise the suspicion of the police and/or authorities it is another negative strike against us.

We keep going in the wrong direction and there will soon be out and out bans against geocaching.

I can hear the questions now, "what happened?"

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I just hope Wal-Mart doesn't stop selling Lock and Locks as a form of retribution...............

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Another tale to add to the collection.. On our way back from Toronto Christmas day we had time to do a few finds.. good time eh with no one about on a holiday evening. So as I'm reaching to get the cache I hear " What are you doing there?" Well.. this young security guard some how spotted the only car in the most remote part of the parking lot in the dark and decided it must be a plot. I explained the game.. he wasn't listening.. "your on private property conducting yourself in a suspicious manor and I want you to leave!" I so fear a few incidents like this will affect this great game. Lesson... I think sometimes we are better in a big group of muggles.

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