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Change to language guidelines

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We have made a change to the EarthCache guidelines to make it clear what is the acceptable language for an EarthCache. Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language. We encourage the practice of providing the text on multiple languages if you have the skill to do so, as long as one of those is the local language.

 

You may be asked to provide the text in English to assist with review, and once published it may be removed.

 

The new guideline words are :

 

EarthCache sites must be educational. They provide accurate but simple explanations of what visitors will experience at the site. Cache text must assume no previous knowledge of earth science. The educational notes must be written to a reading age of an upper middle school (14 year old) student. Avoid direct plagiarism from web sources and quote sources of information where appropriate. Additional technical or scientific notes can be provided for the scientific community at the end of the listing. All notes must be submitted in the local language. You may be requested to provide the notes in English to assist with the reviewing process.

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Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language.

 

What a sad day. I am very, very disappointed. Somehow the darkest day in the history of Earthcaches.

(BTW: The formulation "the local language" is doubtful in case of many countries and regions.)

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language.

 

What a sad day. I am very, very disappointed.

(BTW: The formulation "the local language" is doubtful in case of many countries and regions.)

 

Cezanne

 

Cezanne - I have to agree with you! :laughing: Take a country like South Africa - 11 official languages - which one is the "local" language? Switzerland - any of French, German, Italian could be the "local" language depending on how close you are to the border. The same would no doubt apply to Austria as well. What will happen in the UK where an EC can now be published in Welsh or Gallic for that matter? Indeed a very sad day!!! :anibad:

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Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language.

 

What a sad day. I am very, very disappointed. Somehow the darkest day in the history of Earthcaches.

(BTW: The formulation "the local language" is doubtful in case of many countries and regions.)

 

Cezanne

 

Honestly? How is this a bad idea? Do you think it is good that an EarthCache can be placed in Italy with no Italian text (only German?), or that an EarthCache be placed in Germany with all the text only in Chinese?

 

This change has been made due to comments made to us and in these forums about these issues.

 

Obviously the local EarthCache reviewer will decide what the most appropriate language for the locality will be and work with CO to meet the guidelines.

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Honestly?

 

Yes, of course.

 

Do you think it is good that an EarthCache can be placed in Italy with no Italian text (only German?),

 

Your example is maybe not the best one.

 

In South-Tyrol German is an official language, so German would be more appropriate there for many cachers than Italian.

 

As I have mentioned already in other threads, I feel that every Earthcache should be available at least in English. Other languages should be optional.

 

While I am not happy with German only caches in countries like Egypt, Tunesia etc which exist on gc.com (I regard them as quite impolite and do not understand why these caches geht published),

I am quite puzzled by the fact that my physical caches get easily through (the reviewers are of course fluent in English) when I offer only an English description, but a Earthcache would get denied.

 

 

 

or that an EarthCache be placed in Germany with all the text only in Chinese?

 

As you might have guessed I would not like that. The language of this site is English. I would not have started this activity back in 2002 when the site would have been a local German site, or a site with Chinese text.

 

When I started geocaching, I regarded it as an international activity that is shared by people world wide. English is the only language sufficiently wide-spread to allow the communication of people wih quite different native languages.

 

This change has been made due to comments made to us and in these forums about these issues.

 

I did not find a single posting in here where someone requested that Earth caches with solely an English description should not be published. It would be the first time ever that a cache on gc.com is rejected because it is available only in English.

 

Obviously the local EarthCache reviewer will decide what the most appropriate language for the locality will be and work with CO to meet the guidelines.

 

I do not think that it will work out this way. With your new version of the guidelines, you will have to accept e.g. that an Earth cache in Carinthia (province of Austria) comes along with a Slovenian only description.

I am curious how your reviewers from Germany will be able to handle that. The reviewer from Slovenia will also not be able to help as he is from abroad.

I do not even believe that you have experts for every language of the world.

 

I have already invested some work in an Earth cache that I planned to set up in Slovenia (I am living only about 50km from the border) and now I will trash that work. I am certainly not going to kindly ask for permission for being allowed to use the language of this site. As long as I am using a language which is known to the reviewers and to the big majority of the cachers in a country and which moreover is the language of this site and the number one language in this world, I am willing to undergo a process where I feel treated like someone who asks for pittance. No, thank you. Putting out a container, will easily solve the problem as there are no crazy language rules for physical caches.

 

Cezanne

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I think this is silly. By all means encourage local languages but to force ECs to have the local language is silly - as people have mentioned before sometimes the local language isnot so obviouos

 

In South Africa if I publish an EC in isiXhosa I guarantee it will exclude 99%+ of cachers (worldwide and probably in SA as well) the opportunity to do the cache and learn something which is the point after all. I have yet to meet a local native isiXhosa-speaking cacher or any native speaker of the other Africa official languages..

 

And if I fail to provide and English translation it will not easily be able to be reviewed - will it be denied because the reviewer cannot understand it?

 

By all means encourage local languages.While I would like to see an English translation - I would not want to force this on anyone.

 

I think this needs to be rethought - like the taking away of the live Google Earth cache viewing - which was brought back pretty smartly - although I think that was an issue that probably affected more people directly (I would imagine most people cache in their home countries and so language difference is less of a problem)

 

Really GS try again.......

Edited by trevorh7000

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I think we need to go back to basics now. Back in the day everyone grunted and beat rocks into something that was sharp and killed animals, cut skins to make clothing, and they would paint pretty pictures on rocks to show life how it once was. Maybe if we draw pictures and try ask what was the rocks used for... depicted in pictures... maybe it would make us all aware of what rocks meant to our ancestors... where language was not an issue but rather how the rocks could be used to keep life going...

 

I think my next Earthcache shall be done and as soon as it get published I will change it to Khoisan.... as that was the language of the locals during them days long ago... I will remove the English right away after publication and we will see how many years it will be before anyone actually claims the find, if ever....

 

Oh and for that matter the answers must be in the language it was published in and include rockart of the finder holding his navigational device at the exact co-ords....

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We have made a change to the EarthCache guidelines to make it clear what is the acceptable language for an EarthCache. Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language. We encourage the practice of providing the text on multiple languages if you have the skill to do so, as long as one of those is the local language.

 

You may be asked to provide the text in English to assist with review, and once published it may be removed.

 

The new guideline words are :

 

EarthCache sites must be educational. They provide accurate but simple explanations of what visitors will experience at the site. Cache text must assume no previous knowledge of earth science. The educational notes must be written to a reading age of an upper middle school (14 year old) student. Avoid direct plagiarism from web sources and quote sources of information where appropriate. Additional technical or scientific notes can be provided for the scientific community at the end of the listing. All notes must be submitted in the local language. You may be requested to provide the notes in English to assist with the reviewing process.

 

that makes no sense whatsoever, either the reviewer speaks the local language or doesn't

 

if he/she does i don't see how the english notes will help them

 

if he/she doesn't how do they know the translation is exactly of what the local language notes say?

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Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language.

 

What a sad day. I am very, very disappointed. Somehow the darkest day in the history of Earthcaches.

(BTW: The formulation "the local language" is doubtful in case of many countries and regions.)

 

Cezanne

 

I agree with you. No point go for Earthcaches abroad now. Why don't keep a rule, that listing must be in local AND English language?

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I think this is silly. By all means encourage local languages but to force ECs to have the local language is silly - as people have mentioned before sometimes the local language isnot so obviouos

 

In South Africa if I publish an EC in isiXhosa I guarantee it will exclude 99%+ of cachers (worldwide and probably in SA as well) the opportunity to do the cache and learn something which is the point after all. I have yet to meet a local native isiXhosa-speaking cacher or any native speaker of the other Africa official languages..

Touché Trevor!

 

It seems to me a total about face, defeating the whole object of the purpose an Earthcache.

If I am visiting a new country, the earthcaches give me an opportunity to learn something new about what I am seeing. If I don't understand the listing then there is no point in doing the cache. Also, how will you know what the tasks are or what is required for completion to log it? Where is the educational value in that?

 

I suppose the next ridiculous requirement will be that you will be forced to submit the responses in that local language as well. How pathetic. :rolleyes:

If it aint broke, don't fix it. Leave earthcaches as they are.

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Hi geoaware,

 

just to say that also to me this is a sad and silly decision. Things have been said by cezanne, trevorh7000 and others already, so I won't add more, but I very much hope that this rule change will be reverted.

 

Thanks.

 

geowas

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We have made a change to the EarthCache guidelines to make it clear what is the acceptable language for an EarthCache. Basically from now on (existing EarthCaches will be grandfathered), we will only publish EarthCaches that provide the text in the local language. We encourage the practice of providing the text on multiple languages if you have the skill to do so, as long as one of those is the local language.

 

You may be asked to provide the text in English to assist with review, and once published it may be removed.

 

The new guideline words are :

 

EarthCache sites must be educational. They provide accurate but simple explanations of what visitors will experience at the site. Cache text must assume no previous knowledge of earth science. The educational notes must be written to a reading age of an upper middle school (14 year old) student. Avoid direct plagiarism from web sources and quote sources of information where appropriate. Additional technical or scientific notes can be provided for the scientific community at the end of the listing. All notes must be submitted in the local language. You may be requested to provide the notes in English to assist with the reviewing process.

 

Totally unnecessary and not beneficial to World-wide earthcaching! Like a lot of people learn after elections, change is not always good! A lot of valid points have been made. Please reconsider. Thanks. :rolleyes:

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I guess I'm the black sheep in this thread, but I think having future Earthcache pages done in the/a local language is a good move. No matter what the language rule is, some cachers are going to be inconvenienced. I'd prefer to see the guidelines benefit the local cachers who will be the primary seekers of Earthcaches.

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"You may be asked to provide the text in English to assist with review, and once published it may be removed."

 

Why? If it is good for the reviewer why not for the rest of us?

Anyway, with over 42 thousand languages in the World, an alternative would be to provide a drop down menu with each language as a translation option for the reader! Or, a more simple solution would be have an English translation. Oops, my bad! That's the way it was before the most welcome change. :P

Have any of you read the manual with the latest electronic gizmo you have purchased? The last one I got had no less than 15 translations!

Sorry Daniel, Portuguese wasn't one of them! lol :D

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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Totally unnecessary and not beneficial to World-wide earthcaching! Like a lot of people learn after elections, change is not always good! A lot of valid points have been made. Please reconsider. Thanks. :P

 

Or after an election we can learn that change did not go deep enough. But i agree that while its good to use local languages so local people can participate - which should be the priority of any cache - if reviewers have an English translation then it should be made available to the rest of us.

Edited by mulvaney

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But i agree that while its good to use local languages so local people can participate - which should be the priority of any cache - if reviewers have an English translation then it should be made available to the rest of us.

 

Adding second languages adds a considerable amount of text to the cache descriptions, which are often very long to begin with. If English isn't the vernacular, it should be up to the cache owner to decide whether or not the English translation stays on the page.

 

If you're serious about Earthcaches, then you should be in the habit of being well-prepared them. Working out a translation shouldn't be a huge barrier if you prepare in advance.

 

That being said, I predict the language guideline will be further adjusted, not because the pages should be in English, but because the matter of which language is appropriate is often complicated.

 

I live on the border between two provinces with two different official languages. The language of a cache page can get a little political, because many of us places caches in both Ontario and Quebec - it's not uncommon to get a snarky remark or two if your cache description is in the "wrong" language for the province it's in.

 

Even in the United States, language can be a complicated issue. English is only the de facto national language there. If someone in South Carolina wants to write their cache page in Gullah, they could make a case for it within the guidelines as they stand now.

 

I predict there will be a few conflicts between cache owners and TPTB before this gets ironed out for good.

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I am a little torn on this thread. I love Earthcaches - and having travelled to Germany, Switzerland, Spain and France for caching. it is a real pain trying to do traditional caches that are in the vernacular language.

 

One of the big plusses for EC's IMHO.

 

But - then why "penalise" a German cacher/cache owner who may have about 90% of the finders being german - and be happy with German as the language of the cache.

 

Similarly - I have had a German cacher do 2 of my Earthcaches here in Arabia - and he did his best to understand the English I wrote - and then answered in German. I used Google translate - and saw that he pretty much had the gist of what I was looking for - he fulfilled all the logging requirements 9observations and photos) - so I accepted his log - in my broken German.

 

I would find it strange that caches would suddenly sprout up in odd little used languages - as traditionals have not. I would request however that if there was an English text used in the reviewing - that it is kept (for us anglophone cachers).

 

I think that would be a fair compromise.

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I am a little torn on this thread. I love Earthcaches - and having travelled to Germany, Switzerland, Spain and France for caching. it is a real pain trying to do traditional caches that are in the vernacular language.

 

One of the big plusses for EC's IMHO.

 

But - then why "penalise" a German cacher/cache owner who may have about 90% of the finders being german - and be happy with German as the language of the cache.

 

Similarly - I have had a German cacher do 2 of my Earthcaches here in Arabia - and he did his best to understand the English I wrote - and then answered in German. I used Google translate - and saw that he pretty much had the gist of what I was looking for - he fulfilled all the logging requirements 9observations and photos) - so I accepted his log - in my broken German.

 

I would find it strange that caches would suddenly sprout up in odd little used languages - as traditionals have not. I would request however that if there was an English text used in the reviewing - that it is kept (for us anglophone cachers).

 

I think that would be a fair compromise.

 

Many times the English provided for review is a very poor 'electronic' translation - which is fine for the review purpose but would not by ok by the CO to keep as the cache text...and that decision is left to the CO.

 

Bottom line is that people should be providing their cache text to allow the locals to participate. If a cache appeared in a US state in only German or Greenlandic or Chinese people would complain.."how can I cache in my own country when its not in my language"...and so the rule has been changed.

 

I know some people love to cache when they travel and it has been a bonus for them to have the caches in English - but you can use the 'electronic' translators to get that for most languages (i do that a lot).

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I am a little torn on this thread. I love Earthcaches - and having travelled to Germany, Switzerland, Spain and France for caching. it is a real pain trying to do traditional caches that are in the vernacular language.

 

One of the big plusses for EC's IMHO.

 

But - then why "penalise" a German cacher/cache owner who may have about 90% of the finders being german - and be happy with German as the language of the cache.

 

Similarly - I have had a German cacher do 2 of my Earthcaches here in Arabia - and he did his best to understand the English I wrote - and then answered in German. I used Google translate - and saw that he pretty much had the gist of what I was looking for - he fulfilled all the logging requirements 9observations and photos) - so I accepted his log - in my broken German.

 

I would find it strange that caches would suddenly sprout up in odd little used languages - as traditionals have not. I would request however that if there was an English text used in the reviewing - that it is kept (for us anglophone cachers).

 

I think that would be a fair compromise.

 

Many times the English provided for review is a very poor 'electronic' translation - which is fine for the review purpose but would not by ok by the CO to keep as the cache text...and that decision is left to the CO.

 

Bottom line is that people should be providing their cache text to allow the locals to participate. If a cache appeared in a US state in only German or Greenlandic or Chinese people would complain.."how can I cache in my own country when its not in my language"...and so the rule has been changed.

 

I know some people love to cache when they travel and it has been a bonus for them to have the caches in English - but you can use the 'electronic' translators to get that for most languages (i do that a lot).

 

True - and I guess we will not be getting a whole bunch of Arabic earthcaches (or others for that matter). As there are not a not of pure Arabic / Zulu / kiswahili / Farsi cachers to warrant it - unless you as the cache hider are quite happy with your cache not being found very often :P

 

But then German, French, Spanish, Russian caches in countries that have them as a predominant language is not really a problem. I guess the barometer needs to be:

a) can the reviewer handle it

:D is this the norm for caches in this country?

 

I would be a little sad if a German only cache was published in the UAE - as all caches are currently listed in English - an official language here in Arabia. So my call - although I am sad - is go for it and good luck - I trust that cache owners will be mindful of potential english speaking finders in the future.

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EarthCache sites must be educational. They provide accurate but simple explanations of what visitors will experience at the site. Cache text must assume no previous knowledge of earth science. The educational notes must be written to a reading age of an upper middle school (14 year old) student. Avoid direct plagiarism from web sources and quote sources of information where appropriate. Additional technical or scientific notes can be provided for the scientific community at the end of the listing. All notes MUST* be submitted in the local language. You may be requested to provide the notes in English to assist with the reviewing process.

* = Capitals and bold added by cincol to emphasize.

 

Hang on there Carbon Hunter and geoaware - or am I missing something? Geoaware's posting states that "all notes MUST be submitted in local language." That means that all EC's in Qatar MUST be submitted in Arabic! The same will apply for Germany, France, etc with their local languages. What will the case be in Ontario and Quebec?

 

Honestly, I think that the description needs to be clarified as it is most confusing as it stands. I take pride in developing EC's in countries that I visit. It is my intention to do another in Hong Kong in a few weeks when I am there. Now it must be done in Cantonese I suppose. When I am in Turkey I will have to submit in Turkish and Spain in Spanish. Sorry - no more EC's from me now. :P

Edited by cincol

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Hang on there Carbon Hunter and geoaware - or am I missing something? Geoaware's posting states that "all notes MUST be submitted in local language." That means that all EC's in Qatar MUST be submitted in Arabic! The same will apply for Germany, France, etc with their local languages. What will the case be in Ontario and Quebec?

 

Honestly, I think that the description needs to be clarified as it is most confusing as it stands. I take pride in developing EC's in countries that I visit. It is my intention to do another in Hong Kong in a few weeks when I am there. Now it must be done in Cantonese I suppose. When I am in Turkey I will have to submit in Turkish and Spain in Spanish. Sorry - no more EC's from me now. :P

Great points cincol.

We can't wait to see all of the French language ECs from Canada! Start taking your translator with you on visits to Quebec! :lol:

It's obvious that the majority doesn't rule with the rule makers Hey, on the bright side, maybe GS will dump the permission rule! :D

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Many times the English provided for review is a very poor 'electronic' translation - which is fine for the review purpose but would not by ok by the CO to keep as the cache text...and that decision is left to the CO.

 

If foreigners will start publish Earthcaches in other country they will use elecrtonic translation, do you think that will be better?

What about language of answers?

 

And now is impossible to place an Earthcache in Russia, Greece, China and other countries, what characters are not available on Geocaching.com

 

I'm asking again - why don't require local and English laguages both???

I think is still much harder get permission for Earthcache than write an English desription...

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Many times the English provided for review is a very poor 'electronic' translation - which is fine for the review purpose but would not by ok by the CO to keep as the cache text...and that decision is left to the CO.

 

If foreigners will start publish Earthcaches in other country they will use elecrtonic translation, do you think that will be better?

What about language of answers?

 

And now is impossible to place an Earthcache in Russia, Greece, China and other countries, what characters are not available on Geocaching.com

 

I'm asking again - why don't require local and English laguages both???

I think is still much harder get permission for Earthcache than write an English desription...

Well said. Your request is logical and reasonable. :P

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Similarly - I have had a German cacher do 2 of my Earthcaches here in Arabia - and he did his best to understand the English I wrote - and then answered in German. I used Google translate - and saw that he pretty much had the gist of what I was looking for - he fulfilled all the logging requirements 9observations and photos) - so I accepted his log - in my broken German.

 

Two ECs in English in Arabia? Bad, bad... they would have to be in Arabic now. Lucky German cachers that the caches were placed in time.

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I guess the barometer needs to be:

:P is this the norm for caches in this country?

 

Right. I have not yet seen any / not so many caches in Greece that are (only) in Greek. So why should ECs be?

Also in many countries foreigners are the biggest group of people who geocache. So why exclude them from the fun?

 

There are 20 caches total in Albania. 5 of them are ECs. How many cachers might there be in AL? And how many visitors do speak Albanian?

Edited by geowas

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I'm supportive of what Geoaware and others have stated, although it doesn't really impact me personally. Even if the translation is hashed together from an online translator, it would have to be a relatively intolerant local that would fail to appreciate the effort.

 

Perhaps a workable workaround, if you will, is to request Groundspeak to have a link to one of the online translators at the bottom of every Listing, the same way they have the Language Localization links currently. This would at least give folks quick access to the resource they need to submit a compliant Listing.

 

My 0.02

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We can't wait to see all of the French language ECs from Canada! Start taking your translator with you on visits to Quebec! :D

It's obvious that the majority doesn't rule with the rule makers Hey, on the bright side, maybe GS will dump the permission rule! :P

 

It's always wise to be prepared to speak and/or read French while visiting Quebec, particularly outside of the larger cities. French is the only official language in that province, and many of its residents are Francophone monoglots. If I'm planning to do any non-traditional geocaches in Quebec, I look them over and, if they're in French only, I translate them in advance.

 

While there are clearly some flaws that need to be sorted out, accommodating the Anglophone sense of entitlement should not be the foremost concern when constructing these guidelines.

 

Now, what data have you seen that leads you to conclude that the "majority" disagree with this guideline change? It's clearly illogical to base such a conclusion on a handful of opinionated, English-speaking people in a forum that most geocachers never use. I imagine that the "rule makers" base their decisions on input from a variety of sources.

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Unfortunatly that sounds the end of my E.C.days. Like many of the others I am not fluent in all the European languages and since my holidays around Europe include E.C's I see no point in trying to untangle a strange language to do something that is a hobby and educational.

It will be interesting to see the effect of this rule being applied to Brittany, will E.C's be in Breton?

I have now shelved the ones I am preparing in France since the Google translator produces utter rubbish and has a habit of changing numbers around.

What chance do we have by imposing such a rule.

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I agree that "local language" is vague and problematic. There are French-Canadian communities all over Canada where French is the "local language," and places in Canada where Scottish Gaelic is the "local language."

 

There are also many dialects of English used across North America. When a non-standard English dialect is the local vernacular, can Earthcaches be written in that dialect and not in standard English?

 

I've seen more than a few angry logs by Quebeckers wondering why an Earthcache plunked into the the middle of their community is not in French.

I hope we'll see more Earthcaches being created by people who are local to the featured sites, but this guideline is going to create all sorts of problems as it stands.

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..................... but this guideline is going to create all sorts of problems as it stands.

 

I have to second that!

 

I've said my bit. I will watch from the sidelines now. I'm outta here.

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If I'm planning to do any non-traditional geocaches in Quebec, I look them over and, if they're in French only, I translate them in advance.

 

Its been a long time since I took French in high school and my teacher was not very good. But I was just reading a feedback topic suggesting that Groundspeak provide a way for cache owners to have the option of submitting cache descriptions in multiple languages, which Jeremey indicates is under consideration.

 

This would work well if a earthcache owner was able to provide an accurate translation into English (or any other language), since the cache page could be designed to display a specific language, when that language was available. In other words, there are ways to provide a translation of an earthcache without doubling the length of the page that is displayed, should Groundspeak choose to implement this feature.

 

Of course, this would only help if the particular owner was fluent enough in a second language to provide a translation. Beyond that, if I am visiting an earthcache in a foreign country, I would have to do what I do for traditional caches -- use an online translator and edit the cache description in GSAK so it is available to me for paperless purposes.

 

If an earthcache was such that I could use this method to complete the tasks, I would do it. If not, I would figure that it was like any other earthcache that I might encounter when traveling that requires special tools or equipment that I may not be carrying with me. As an earthcache owner, I have been willing to work around language barriers, so it can be done. And if the new guidelines mean that I could not place an earthcache when traveling in another country, so be it. Perhaps a cottage industry of people willing to help with translations will emerge -- earthcachetranslations.org.

 

There are, undoubtedly, a number of issues to work out with the new guidelines. But again, as a matter of general principle, I have no problem with earthcaches being in the local language. Everything else is.

Edited by mulvaney

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..., but this guideline is going to create all sorts of problems as it stands.

 

 

There are, undoubtedly, a number of issues to work out with the new guidelines. But again, as a matter of general principle, I have no problem with earthcaches being in the local language. Everything else is.

 

I guess these are the main points.

 

In principle - no problems with caches in a local language - but we need to ensure that the integrity of ECs remains - i.e. are they educational and correct/accurate = in accordance with the guidelines that all ECs to date have been published.

 

With translations - and second/third language reviewers etc. the potential exists for poorer quality caches to emerge and a dilution of EC quality.

 

But again - all change can be painful and the principle remains sound - it is just fraught with potential for problems and possible difficulties to implement.

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We can't wait to see all of the French language ECs from Canada! Start taking your translator with you on visits to Quebec! <_<

It's obvious that the majority doesn't rule with the rule makers Hey, on the bright side, maybe GS will dump the permission rule! :D

While there are clearly some flaws that need to be sorted out, accommodating the Anglophone sense of entitlement should not be the foremost concern when constructing these guidelines.

 

Why do you persist in putting down others who disagree with your position?

The only post that could have remotely be considered as an "Anglophone sense of entitlement" came from Austria and her position was that English was as close to a universal language as it gets (my words, not hers). For your reference, English is the most widely used language for translating important medical and/or scientific documents and journals! That's not a "sense of entitlement" speaking, that is a fact! Is earthcaching becoming too political correct at the expense of the hobby?

Disagree and or editorialize all you want to, but name calling is not needed! :unsure:

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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We can't wait to see all of the French language ECs from Canada! Start taking your translator with you on visits to Quebec! :wacko:

It's obvious that the majority doesn't rule with the rule makers Hey, on the bright side, maybe GS will dump the permission rule! <_<

While there are clearly some flaws that need to be sorted out, accommodating the Anglophone sense of entitlement should not be the foremost concern when constructing these guidelines.

 

Why do you persist in putting down others who disagree with your position?

The only post that could have remotely be considered as an "Anglophone sense of entitlement" came from Austria and her position was that English was as close to a universal language as it gets (my words, not hers). For your reference, English is the most widely used language for translating important medical and/or scientific documents and journals! That's not a "sense of entitlement" speaking, that is a fact! Is earthcaching becoming too political correct at the expense of the hobby?

Disagree and or editorialize all you want to, but name calling is not needed! :wacko:

 

Please don't derail this productive discussion with your bizarre vendetta. You've entirely ignored several points by several people - some of which were directed at you - in order to hone in on the first thing you could twist into a fight. If you're sincerely interested in discussion, then ignore things you perceive to be unpleasant and address the points that interest you.

 

P.S. I'm an anglophone monoglot, and I was referring to the sense of entitlement that many anglophones inevitably develop in a world that is increasingly accommodating of our unilingualism. It's unfortunate that you chose to construe this remark as an insult.

 

Now, I haven't seen any remarks to suggest that this guideline change is about political correctness. It seems to be about opening up Earthcaches to people who have long been excluded. Now that the Earthcache program is in a better position to accommodate local languages, they should move forward and allow people to create Earthcaches in their own countries, in their own language. Removing the language obstacle allows considerable room for the game to grow.

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Many times the English provided for review is a very poor 'electronic' translation - which is fine for the review purpose but would not by ok by the CO to keep as the cache text...and that decision is left to the CO.

 

I do not agree that a poor electronic translation suffices for the review. That might be true for some very simple structured earth caches, but not for all.

 

Bottom line is that people should be providing their cache text to allow the locals to participate. If a cache appeared in a US state in only German or Greenlandic or Chinese people would complain.."how can I cache in my own country when its not in my language"...and so the rule has been changed.

 

If the US is the problem (which I do not believe at all), the answer is very simple. Do allow the usage of proper English instead of the local language. That would exlude the German and Chinese Earth caches in the US, but still allow

English Earthcaches in countries where English is not the local language, but understood.

 

There are many caches in Austria that only have an English description and almost all of them have been placed by locals. Could you please explain me why physical caches only written in English are perfectly ok, but Earth caches are not?

Some examples (chosen arbitrarily)

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=Hitch2162

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=PlanetEarth

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...80-ad1faa3b8195

(my only one not translated)

 

I typically provide German translations for my caches as an additional service for those who understand English, but are more comfortable with reading German. Normally I do provide the translations some time after the cache appeared as the additional version takes time. Since all the reviewers handling caches in Austria and the big majority of the cachers are sufficiently proficient in English (English is a compulsory subject at school and taught for many years) I find it ridiculous that cachers are forced to use the/a local language. The issue about "local" language makes things even worse. Hardly any Austrian cacher could deal with a Slovenian description (which would be ok in some parts of Austria) while an English one is fine for the vast majority, but not ok for you.

 

 

 

I know some people love to cache when they travel and it has been a bonus for them to have the caches in English - but you can use the 'electronic' translators to get that for most languages (i do that a lot).

 

I know many Earth caches (actually nearly all that are more complex) that are undoable in this manner.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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they should move forward and allow people to create Earthcaches in their own countries, in their own language.

 

But that's a different requirement than forcing people to use a local language.

I am a native Austrian and English is neither my mother tongue nor the language I like the most.

Still I ask for the right to use English as the language for my caches - I inscribed to this site as an international one with English as language and not to a local service. If I decide to come up with an additional German version (which I usually do), this should be my own decision and not something imposed on me by people who do not know at all the local situation in my country.

 

Removing the language obstacle allows considerable room for the game to grow.

 

Actually, countries like Germany and Austria do not suffer from too few Earth caches, but from too many that are not set up with a real geological interest as motivation. Recently one of the two German Earth cache reviewers started a thread in the German part of this forum and mentioned that during the last months the quality of the submissions has degraded considerably and that many submitters are not taking into account that an Earth cache is more than just a location and that the write up plays a significant role and needs to contain an Earth cache lesson. As the German reviewers mainly look at the German text,

the reason for the degraded quality is not to a language issue.

 

Moreover, note that the current version of the Earth cache guidelines allows Slovenian Earth cache descriptions in Austria which, as I mentioned are understood by hardly any Austrian cacher, but does not allow English ones which are understood by the vast majority of the local cachers. Kind of absurd, isn't it?

 

 

Cezanne

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but you can use the 'electronic' translators to get that for most languages (i do that a lot).

 

Ok let's test your capabilities to guess.

 

Suppose you encounter an Earth cache with the following logging tasks (text taken from the electronical translation into English which is also used in the cache description)

 

What is the height shows your GPS at the specified coordinates?

 

What are the visible columns of basalt?

 

Give a Nebenvulkan the Vogelsberg, except the women's mountain.

 

I am really curious about your interpretation of the second question. I know the original and know that it is impossible to guess what is meant.

 

I took this example only to show you that automatic translations of Earth caches are quite problematic even if one only considers the logging requirements and not the wish to learn something from the text.

Maybe you are very talented in guessing. I am not. I have to admit that I would not be able to learn a lot from using automatic translation of caches like these e.g.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...43-7c17f0b62804

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...55-4b80190623a9

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ac-aa1119ad909f

 

Cezanne

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cezanne,

While I sometimes differ from your opinion, you are right on point here. Other than one self centered poster who will remain unnamed, everyone else agrees with your position! The change is not for the best, but alas, I feel your plea is falling on deaf ears. When minds are made up it is most difficult to change them. You may ask, are minds made up?

We only wonder why the change was announced without prior input from the earthcaching community? We certainly don't know for sure , but is that squeaky wheel being oiled again or is it some sort attempt at being more and more political correct? Like following the discussion regarding the proximity and the vacations rules, leave well enough alone!

P.S. Unlike others, cezanne, your argument is made without name calling and/or snide remarks and we thank you for that! :unsure:

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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Without a doubt, I think the goal of earthcaching should be to provide cache descriptions in the local language. The question is how that can be accomplished. Certainly, if a reviewer has to look at English notes that read "Give a Nebenvulkan the Vogelsberg, except the women's mountain" then it will be hard to determine whether the geology is accurate and the task is appropriate. But on the other hand, I would not want to submit an earthcache in a language other than my own.

 

Language is not my strong point. I am embarrassed that my Spanish skills have fallen by the wayside over the years, I cannot fathom how I ever managed to get straight As in French, and the Japanese I picked up allowed me to communicate when I lived there, but not to write a geological description. And if I was native to any of these countries, I would not want to have to use English or any other language that is not my own to submit an earthcache.

 

So as a starting point, I would like to see Groundspeak implement multi-language support. As I mentioned before, this is technologically feasible and Jeremy has indicated that it is under consideration -- but it would be dependent on the cache owner providing a translation into whatever other languages are used.

 

If this was an option, then I think earthcaches should be allowed to be submitted in the developer's native language (or any language they choose, provided it is reviewable), with the goal of making the description available in the local language as well. Since an earthcaching is international, and you are allowed to develop an earthcache outside of your home area, then it makes sense that developers use their own language. If they can obtain permission from the appropriate local agency, then the rest should not be a bar. This would still encourage local people to develop local earthcaches, but would allow flexibility when there is more than one language used in a region.

 

I have had several Germans visit some of my earthcaches and would not mind it at all if they submitted a German language earthcache near my home. In fact, I would welcome it because it reflects the international character of the game and I would help them should they need a local contact -- maybe I am being optimistic, but I do not see that as a problem. Although there are some geocachers who might wonder what a German language cache is doing in their midst, I assume that anybody here who has advocated against the "local language" rule would welcome such caches and support them.

 

Again, multi-language support could make this work even better. Ideally, if a German Earthcache was placed next door, people with better language skills than my own might help with a translation. The description could be displayed in English for those of us who speak English or German for those who visit my area from that country. Or a cache placed in French Quebec could be read in French for those who speak that language, and English for those who speak that.

 

That kind of support is more crucial for earthcaching than for regular caching because of the importance that words and education play in this part of our game. I can find a traditional based upon the coordinates and a rudimentary understanding of what I might be seeking, but I admit that "Give a Nebenvulkan the Vogelsberg" would leave me stumped or have me do something that might get me arrested. If I read that while traveling, it would not bother me because I cannot do every earthcache, but it would be great if there was a way to make it feasible for others.

 

Not every earthcache, of course, would have multiple language translations. Although I would love it if somebody could assist me in providing German or Spanish translations for my own earthcaches (provided that Groundspeak implemented the necessary support), I could not do it on my own. In some countries, where there are only a few earthcaches that have been developed by foreigners, it might be possible to find a translator who would assist in the work. A user network might develop through the earthcaching site. The essential point is that it opens the door to a lot of possibilities other than an "either/or" scenario.

 

As a practical matter, the change in the guidelines does not affect me and not every earthcache is going to be doable for everyone, but the goal should be to make it as accessible as possible. Certainly local languages are important in doing this, in some instances, the most important way of doing it. But given the problems that have been discussed I am not sure that a "local language only" rule at this point is going to accomplish that unless it is refined in practice to meet some of the situations discussed.

 

So I would urge the GSA to work with Groundspeak on providing multi-language support as an alternative and assist earthcache developers to make that work -- even if the local language rule is not modified, it would help in making earthcaching more accessible to all, which should be our goal. There are always wrinkles to work out -- assuring the accuracy of a translation, for instance -- but such things are also a factor under the present system of review. Regardless, I hope that the present guidelines are simply a starting point in the discussion and develolpment of how to make earthcaching grow on an international level.

Edited by mulvaney

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But that's a different requirement than forcing people to use a local language.

I am a native Austrian and English is neither my mother tongue nor the language I like the most.

Still I ask for the right to use English as the language for my caches - I inscribed to this site as an international one with English as language and not to a local service. If I decide to come up with an additional German version (which I usually do), this should be my own decision and not something imposed on me by people who do not know at all the local situation in my country.

 

If English is widely-spoken in your country to the point that you honestly feel it is the best language in which to present your Earthcaches, then I think that case should be made when you submit the cache. "Local language" leaves a lot to be interpreted as it stands now.

 

This is why, while I agree with the general spirit of the change, I think there needs to be further clarification. Languages mix, overlap, and do not obey international borders.

 

Actually, countries like Germany and Austria do not suffer from too few Earth caches, but from too many that are not set up with a real geological interest as motivation. Recently one of the two German Earth cache reviewers started a thread in the German part of this forum and mentioned that during the last months the quality of the submissions has degraded considerably and that many submitters are not taking into account that an Earth cache is more than just a location and that the write up plays a significant role and needs to contain an Earth cache lesson. As the German reviewers mainly look at the German text,

the reason for the degraded quality is not to a language issue.

 

Do you think it might be a language issue at a different point in the process? Earthcache.org is in English only, and Geocaching.com refer cachers back to Earthcache.org for submission guidelines.

 

Moreover, note that the current version of the Earth cache guidelines allows Slovenian Earth cache descriptions in Austria which, as I mentioned are understood by hardly any Austrian cacher, but does not allow English ones which are understood by the vast majority of the local cachers. Kind of absurd, isn't it?

 

The guidelines don't indicate what constitutes a "local" language. I do think the case can be made in many countries that English is used widely enough that it constitutes a de facto "local language" for the purposes of this game.

 

Looking at the wording of the guideline, I wonder if the intention is to leave the language issue to the cache owner's discretion, rather than demanding English as it used to.

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So I would urge the GSA to work with Groundspeak on providing multi-language support as an alternative and assist earthcache developers to make that work -- even if the local language rule is not modified, it would help in making earthcaching more accessible to all, which should be our goal. There are always wrinkles to work out -- assuring the accuracy of a translation, for instance -- but such things are also be a factor under the present system of review. Regardless, I hope that the present guidelines are simply a starting point in the discussion and develolpment of how to make earthcaching grow on an international level.

 

+1

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But on the other hand, I would not want to submit an earthcache in a language other than my own.

 

That's up to you. I and many others certainly want to submit caches in other languages than their own (in most cases this other language will be English) and I started geocaching under the premises that I could process all my geocaching activities in English. I am writing all my logs in English and I enjoy it.

 

 

So as a starting point, I would like to see Groundspeak implement multi-language support.

 

 

That's something I and others have already asked for back in 2003 and the request has brought forward since then many times with no response whatsoever. I still would like to see such a support though I feel that it probably would come too late to make change a large number of cache owners to change their habits, but that's a completely different issue.

 

So I would urge the GSA to work with Groundspeak on providing multi-language support as an alternative and assist earthcache developers to make that work -- even if the local language rule is not modified, it would help in making earthcaching more accessible to all, which should be our goal. There are always wrinkles to work out -- assuring the accuracy of a translation, for instance -- but such things are also a factor under the present system of review. Regardless, I hope that the present guidelines are simply a starting point in the discussion and develolpment of how to make earthcaching grow on an international level.

 

I cannot help myself, but I somehow get the feeling that the situation for which you provide arguments fits much better the current situation for physical caches in some European countries as for a high percentrage of those a local language is used as the only language. Up to now an English version has been mandatory and many Earth caches in countries where English is not one of the official languages also come along with local language versions.

 

The relevant part of the change in the guidelines is that it will not any longer be ok to come up with an Earth cache exclusively available in English (at least at the time of the submission) in countries like Austria, the Netherlands, Sweden, Slovenia etc. While English is understood by many people, it would be ridiculous to refer as English as local language in these countries.

 

Cezanne

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If English is widely-spoken in your country to the point that you honestly feel it is the best language in which to present your Earthcaches,

 

It is quite clear that a single language can never be the best choice and that there are of course cachers who prefer to read texts in their own language because they are faster in doing so.

 

As I have mentioned before, I am offering German versions for all my caches except one although this has been quite some work as my cache texts are involved (typically longer than the average Earth cache or at least as long). This is, however, a service I am offering because I want to make life easier for other people.

I do not feel that it is appropriate that someone forces me to come up with a local language version and in particular not at the time when a cache is submitted (writing two or even more versions takes more time and effort than just providing one version). I also know several Earth caches in my country which started off with only the English version and where a translation into German was added at a later time.

 

Such an approach - starting off with an English version and possibly adding one or more local language versions at a later time - would also be a good solution for those who would like to set up an Earth cache in a country whose language they do not speak. As mentioned in a previous posting, in such a case kind local cachers with a good command of English could jump in and provide a translation (for example a French version in Quebec and France or a Slovenian one in Slovenia). I would be happy with this type of approach while I am very unhappy with the reformulated version of the guidelines.

 

 

 

 

then I think that case should be made when you submit the cache. "Local language" leaves a lot to be interpreted as it stands now.

 

No, it does not. Though e.g. anyone whom I met in Sweden did understand English and even though not many TV programs in Sweden except the news are in Swedish, I would regard it as ridiculous to refer to

English as a local language in Sweden.

Similarly, only some minorities and immigrants and a small other group of people in Austria understand Slovenian, but still it is an official language in parts of the country and thus is a local language.

For a local language I would expect that a sufficiently large group of local people has this language as native language and that the language is an official language. Neither of these two conditions is true for English in most European countries.

 

If it is not local language that is meant, then it would be easy to reformulate the changed guidelines again

and allow e.g. all languages that are acceptable for physical caches in the country under consideration.

 

 

Do you think it might be a language issue at a different point in the process? Earthcache.org is in English only, and Geocaching.com refer cachers back to Earthcache.org for submission guidelines.

 

No, it is not. There exist translations of the Earth cache guidelines into German and many threads and postings in German language fora on Earth cache related topics. The issue is just that for getting the Earth cache master awards, one needs to develop Earth caches and moreover, it is the only possibility of virtual caches available. Many cachers who set up Earth caches have no interest into earth science and into teaching something to others. They are typically just attracted by the location and think that a location with a relation to geology should suffice. This is also true for many visitors of Earth caches who are typically disappointed if the main focus is on learning and not a very spectacular location like the Grand canyon or the Niagara falls.

 

The guidelines don't indicate what constitutes a "local" language. I do think the case can be made in many countries that English is used widely enough that it constitutes a de facto "local language" for the purposes of this game.

 

Stilkl it makes a difference if English is used by people on the street only to communicate with people who do not understand the local language or if it is used (and not only understood) on a regular basis in daily life. The latter will not be true in Europe except at places where it is an official language, i.e. not many places.

 

Looking at the wording of the guideline, I wonder if the intention is to leave the language issue to the cache owner's discretion, rather than demanding English as it used to.

 

I do not think so. I would be happy however if you were right (of course provided that the owner chooses a language which does not reduce the quality of the submission process). This latter point is of interest by the way. While geoaware stated in this thread that an automatic translation suffices for the review, one of the two German Earth cache reviewers recently wrote in the German speaking part of this forum that they have a big back log and do not want to ask the reviewers in charge of the review for the English speaking part for help as some of the provided English translations (which have been compulsory up to now) are bad and that he is worried that in this manner bad quality Earth caches will slip through. I think that the German Earth cache reviewers can better judge this aspect than geoaware because they have more experience with how far bad translations can be from the real meaning as they are able to understand German and English. Moreover, my personal experience excactly matches with the observation that automatic translations of Earth caches are useless for learning aspects. I would not have spent hours to translate Earth caches of other people if automatic translations would make sense.

 

Cezanne

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For a local language I would expect that a sufficiently large group of local people has this language as native language and that the language is an official language.

 

This is purely conjecture.

 

The guidelines do not indicate by which criteria a language will be considered "local." Obviously, clarification is needed. There are countries where non-official languages are widely spoken, and there are countries that don't have any official languages (eg. USA).

 

For the purposes of determining what language or languages are appropriate, it might be reasonable for cache owners and reviewers to look to other geocaches to determine what language geocachers are using in that area.

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There are countries where non-official languages are widely spoken, and there are countries that don't have any official languages (eg. USA).

 

Even in the US -- where someone active in various progressive circles once told me that he did not see any need to learn a foreign language -- it might get pretty confusing. English is the official language of my state (California) and 27 others. But the state prints documents in 9 languages. There are significant areas here where Spanish would have to be considered the local language. Los Angeles is pretty evenly divided between English and Spanish as a primary language but 54 percent speak a language other than English at home -- so English might be considered a minority language for caches published there. The local language would vary depending on the specific area. Under the most literal interpretation of the guidelines, some of the earthcaches currently published there would have to be done in Spanish if they were submitted today. But its not just California, only Mexico has a larger Hispanic population than the United States.

 

Hawaii is bilingual. French is legally recognized in Louisiana. In New Mexico, laws are printed in both English and Spanish. Various reservations, of course, have their own languages. I am not sure what this all means -- other that for the first time I might feel I am lucky that the area where I live, and where I develop most of my earthcaches is not very diverse -- somehow common sense approaches always seem to create a lot of headaches.

Edited by mulvaney

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For a local language I would expect that a sufficiently large group of local people has this language as native language and that the language is an official language.

 

This is purely conjecture.

 

Yes, to some extent it is.

Instead of replying to my first posting in this thread that the guidelines do not exclude English only Earth caches in a country provided that physical caches offered in English only are published in that country on a routine basis geoaware replied in a quite different way. So I do think that what I wrote above comes close to what the GSA had in mind. I agree, however, with you that a clarification would be both helpful and needed (due to the problem with "the local language").

 

The guidelines do not indicate by which criteria a language will be considered "local."

 

The guidelines, however talk about "the local language" and not about "in a/one of the local languages".

 

Obviously, clarification is needed. There are countries where non-official languages are widely spoken, and there are countries that don't have any official languages (eg. USA).

 

Official was just a term I used because I could not find a better one.

Fact is and that is what is important in my opinion is that no one would regard English as a local language in European countries like Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Slovenia, Sweden, the Netherlands etc (regardless of which definition one uses).

 

PS (not specially directed to you, but to all readers of this thread - I just do not want to start a new thread):

I am very frustrated and sad that in 2010 there is a need to argue why English is an important language helping people with different native languages to understand each other.

 

The vast majority of scientists around the world publish their work in English though of course for many of them it would be easier to write in their own language. If automatic translation were useful and leaded to reasonable results, many of them would not take the effort. There are many sciences where the typical texts are certainly easier amenable to automatic translation than geology.

 

Cezanne

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A lot has been said already. Just adding another 2 øre on a couple of points.

 

All notes must be submitted in the local language.
I'm not opposing to ECs in only the local language (allthough i would prefer english or both local and english), but i do think common sense should prevail over strict regulations.

 

We've lived in Qatar and all local cachers are non-native. And i'm willing to bet very few know more arabic than the basic hello's and thank you's. This now begs the question what purpose an EC in arabic would serve. We've been on holidays to Sri Lanka, same issue there: no native cachers (mosly western tourists) and therefore pointless to have the cache description written in Sinhala or Tamil.

 

Obviously the local EarthCache reviewer will decide what the most appropriate language for the locality will be and work with CO to meet the guidelines.
Does this mean english will be allowed for those countries where the majority of cachers are not native?

 

Bottom line is that people should be providing their cache text to allow the locals to participate. If a cache appeared in a US state in only German or Greenlandic or Chinese people would complain.."how can I cache in my own country when its not in my language"...and so the rule has been changed.
Agreed with this example, you wouldn't expect an EC in the USA in another language than english or possibly spanish. But then again, following a similar line of reasoning, you wouldn't expect an approval on a EC in a local language when there are no/hardly any native cachers either.

 

If you're serious about Earthcaches, then you should be in the habit of being well-prepared them. Working out a translation shouldn't be a huge barrier if you prepare in advance.
Perhaps a workable workaround, if you will, is to request Groundspeak to have a link to one of the online translators at the bottom of every Listing, the same way they have the Language Localization links currently. This would at least give folks quick access to the resource they need to submit a compliant Listing.
I'm (or better was) working on an EC in Sri Lanka. I have searched but cannot find a translator for english to sinhala. There are a few word-to-word translators available, but those obviously are useless to translate a semi-scientific text.

All in all online translators are resticted to just a few languages (google translate if i may name a brand here is restricted to some 60 languages) and wouldn't by far cover all of the currently spoken languages (sources differ, but at least 2500).

 

Mr. Terratin

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One thing I haven't seen raised here is IT issues. Not all languages can be expressed in the Roman alphabet. Will a cache owner have to have extra character sets in his/her browser to build the web page? What about the cacher looking at the page?

 

The we get on to how the CO deals with answers in another language. Will his email client be able to support Cantonese characters for ECs in China; Arabic characters in Saudi; etc?

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This is a brilliant idea to do it in the official language of the region. But is it workable No – it is not. Let me sketch the scenario.

 

In South Africa we are 53 million people with 11 official languages. Only 500 people are cachers and they do understand English. Let us take a region – any region in South Africa. For argument sake let us choose Kwazulu Natal. Majority speaks Zulu so let us do an EC in Zulu. How many Zulus will visit the EC? Easy to work this one out – none will visit. I never met a Zulu that is a geocacher. So what value did the Zulu language added to the listing, Again, none. So why the hell does you need to do it in Zulu.

 

Oh, yes I read it somewhere. Let us make a decision and push it down on the reviewer to resolve. The reviewer will select the language. Again this is crazy. Let us take our reviewer in this case. How the hell is he going to know what language is spoken in Zambia in a certain region. Zambia has so many languages that they forgot to count them. Sorry guys – do not come forward with brilliant ideas and it can not work.

 

How did we do this in South Africa? English is the business language. You can speak 10 languages but you will not be accepted in any position if you can not speak English. Point blank – that is how business work. But geocaching can not see it they want to diversify to such an extent that no one will understand what is potting.

 

How on earth will I be able to show any earth caches and try to explain to them the concept with an earth cache in Zulu? How many American earth caches must now be translated into the Indian languages? Common guys let us back to reality and leave the dreams for sleeping time.

 

So the rule must be simple. English is the one to use; with the option to add the local language. To double the server space just to add two languages of which one is of no value - is not the way to go. This is the end of any EC’s from me – for sure; and I believe that most other people will go that way. Instead of going forward with earth caching this is “One small step for man and one giant leap backwards for mankind”. Next time Neil Armstrong better speak the language of that region or else we will crucify him.

 

The focus should not be on the region and the language of the region but on the people that visit the cache. It is so easy to understand and is should not be that hard to get this workout. Focus on the customer – with other words the guys that are doing the cache. The benefit must be for him - not the guy in the street that will never visit the cache and neither do not care in which language it is. This is absolutely absurd. Gerhard

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