+Thot Posted August 12, 2010 Author Share Posted August 12, 2010 Sorry...just thought it was funny that it was stated twice...in relative short order... That's because the first was posted while I was composing mine, thus I didn't know about it. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 From the guidelines for hiding a cache: For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit. If my cache MUST contain a logbook to be a valid cache, then finders MUST sign it. Quote Link to comment
+Team Cotati Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Yes, you have to sign the log book. If you don't, something bad will happen. Quote Link to comment
+JesandTodd Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Logging of All Physical Caches Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed. Pure and simple. Call me a purist. Anyone who cannot understand this is an atheist! Wasps chased me away? That's a DNF. Expecting to log a find on that without first asking the CO for permission is entitement! That's between you, your conscience, and the cache owner. Forgot your pencil? That's pretty dumb! Did you sign the log? Nope? DNF. If the CO allows you to log that, after asking, then that's his prerpgative. Don't assume that you're entitled. Exactly. I sat at a park bench with the park full of children and families touching a cache below me. It was wedged in so I couldn't easily retrieve it. I had my hand on the top (bison tube) for over 20 mins. Clearly I found the cache. But I refused to log it as found because I didn't sign the log. I just came back later when less people were out. But there have been a few that I've found and not logged because of that... No sign, no find Quote Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 I sat at a park bench with the park full of children and families touching a cache below me. It was wedged in so I couldn't easily retrieve it. I had my hand on the top (bison tube) for over 20 mins. Clearly I found the cache. But I refused to log it as found because I didn't sign the log. I just came back later when less people were out. But there have been a few that I've found and not logged because of that... No sign, no find I would not claim that as a find either. Muggles are an expected hazard, and in that example if you could not retrieve the cache it's not a find in my book. But I see that different than for example if I found it but I didn't have a pen, and took a photo as evidence instead. In the later case I found it; it's more of a technical detail about signing the log. But I agree the "purist" interpretation is in some ways the easiest. If the rule is "under no circumstances can an online "found" log be done unless the official log (as supplied by the cache owner) is signed", then there is no need to judge specific cases. But I still think there can be exceptions. Quote Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 It the CO had said "no signature, no find", I would have been disappointed, but would have accepted that. Yup. There's a reason we SIGN things like mortgages and contracts and geocache logs--It is our guarantee, our promise, our proof. No signature, no deal. I see a difference between a legal signature on a contact document, and printing a user ID name or using a sticker on a geocache log - geocaching being something we do for fun. Actually if it's about proof, my supplying a photo of myself with the cache is as much or more proof as someone writing my username on a log. Geocaching is based largely on trust; I could easily ask a friend to sign my name each time he finds a cache and increase my finds. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Logging of All Physical Caches Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed. Pure and simple. Call me a purist. Anyone who cannot understand this is an atheist! Wasps chased me away? That's a DNF. Expecting to log a find on that without first asking the CO for permission is entitement! That's between you, your conscience, and the cache owner. Forgot your pencil? That's pretty dumb! Did you sign the log? Nope? DNF. If the CO allows you to log that, after asking, then that's his prerpgative. Don't assume that you're entitled. Basically, you are agreeing with those that state that there is no rule requiring the log to be signed. There is no rule because TPTB leave it as the cache owners prerogative whether to allow online logs if the physical log book was not signed. From the guidelines for hiding a cache: For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit. If my cache MUST contain a logbook to be a valid cache, then finders MUST sign it. Our office is required to have a first aid kit. I am under no obligation to use it. Quote Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 There IS no answer. The question is a koan. The question is NOT a Koan. The answer is: you must sign the logbook. Let's assume for a moment that that is the rule. Has it ever been enforced by Groundspeak by the deletion of such a log? Or, since the cache owner must delete bogus logs, has a found log that says "I couldn't open the container" ever resulted in CO bannination or cache archival? Quote Link to comment
+dfx Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Let's assume for a moment that that is the rule. Has it ever been enforced by Groundspeak by the deletion of such a log? Or, since the cache owner must delete bogus logs, has a found log that says "I couldn't open the container" ever resulted in CO bannination or cache archival? since only Groundspeak is able to give a definite answer to this and most likely won't get involved, this will remain unanswered and can only be speculated upon. unless this has actually happened to someone, or witnessed it happening, in which case the question could be answered with "yes". but it won't be possible to get a definite "no" answer. Quote Link to comment
40zzzzz Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 what happens if i decide i dont want to sign anything? i still get coordinates and go find caches and have fun. Quote Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 what happens if i decide i dont want to sign anything? i still get coordinates and go find caches and have fun. That's fine as long as you don't want to log them online (as a find) either. Quote Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 There IS no answer. The question is a koan. The question is NOT a Koan. The answer is: you must sign the logbook. Nonsense. For all but a small number of puritans, anyone with more that a few hundred finds has probably had some situation where they didn't sign the log but logged a Found it online. The sky did come crashing down, they were not struck by lightening bolts, and (most importantly) the cache owner did not delete the online find. If you want to be a puritan, you may adopt a personal rule to not log a Find online unless you have signed the logbook. No cache owner or anyone else can force you to log online against your will. Heck, there are even people who sign the physical log who won't log online. You don't have to log online if you didn't sign the log book. You don't have to log online if you did sign the log book. The online find is not the score. The online find is not a reward that the cache owner gives out. There is nothing official about an online find log. It is simply a way for cachers to share their experience hunting the cache. Cache owners are supposed to delete bogus logs because these are log from people who didn't even hunt the cache. Cache owners are currently given a lot of leeway in determining what is a bogus log. If some puritan cache owner wants to believe every log is bogus until he checks the physical log, they can use that definition. From the guidelines for hiding a cache: For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit. If my cache MUST contain a logbook to be a valid cache, then finders MUST sign it. The requirement for a physical log is to allow puritans to play the game they want to play. There has to be a log to sign for those geocachers who want to define "find" in those terms. In reality, the intent is that when you find a cache you do sign the log. This provides proof to you as a finder that you have actually found the cache (and not some letterbox hidden nearby) and that you have met any physical or mental challenge that was intended by the hider to be part of the experience of finding this cache. The argument that is being made, is that signing the log is not required to log the find online. If the finder has a good reason for not being able to sign the log, the cache owner shouldn't be deleting the find log. It is up to the cache owner to determine what is a good reason. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 what happens if i decide i dont want to sign anything? i still get coordinates and go find caches and have fun. I wouldn't do that, if I were you... Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 There is an ongoing "opinions" thread over in Off-Topic if anybody wants to add to it. Quote Link to comment
+SilentWolf Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Geez, some people here need to settle down and grow up IMHO. Of course we've all had instances where we, for some reason or another, couldn't sign the physical log (me personally I can only think of a few, where the log was soaked or 110% overfull) Did I still log them online as a find? Assuming I had the cache open in my hands, Yes. Did I also make a note or a repair request to the CO? Yes. Do I wish that all CO's would maintain their caches' as I try to do my own so these kind of snafu's wouldn't happen? Yes, but obviously this ain't a perfect world. DO I CARE HOW MANY FINDS OR HIDES MY GEOCACHING.COM PROFILE SAYS I HAVE???? NO! I play this game to have fun and spend time with my family and friends who also find it fun, plain and simple. The numbers mean nothing to me, since I'd only be cheating myself anyway if I didn't play by the rules. It boils down to your personal level of ethics and honesty - I think the guidelines are pretty clear, but whatever helps you sleep at night. Quote Link to comment
+Markwell Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 (edited) The argument that is being made, is that signing the log is not required to log the find online. If the finder has a good reason for not being able to sign the log, the cache owner shouldn't be deleting the find log. It is up to the cache owner to determine what is a good reason. Wait - You want people to use their brains instead of having a rule set up for them telling them what they should and shouldn't do? The guidelines would be much shorter if everyone did that. Right now, the Listing Guidelines have 5,269 words and 31,609 characters with spaces (discounting the Table of Contents and the "Return to Table of Contents" messages). In trimming out the examples and specifics and making the statements generalities, I got it down to 700 words - just over 4,000 characters with spaces. But some people LIVE to push the envelope or dance on the "acceptable" line. They have to have things spelled out exactly for them. Edited August 12, 2010 by Markwell Quote Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 The guidelines would be much shorter if everyone did that. Right now, the Listing Guidelines have 5,269 words and 31,609 characters with spaces (discounting the Table of Contents and the "Return to Table of Contents" messages). In trimming out the examples and specifics and making the statements generalities, I got it down to 700 words - just over 4,000 characters with spaces. But some people LIVE to push the envelope or dance on the "acceptable" line. They have to have things spelled out exactly for them. There is an ongoing "10 Characters or less" thread over in Off-Topic if anybody wants to add to it. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Sorry, haven't been following for a while. Have we arrived at a conclusion yet? Jeremy called, and he wants to know what you guys came up with. I told him I'd be getting back to him soon. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 There IS no answer. The question is a koan. The question is NOT a Koan. The answer is: you must sign the logbook. Nonsense. For all but a small number of puritans, anyone with more that a few hundred finds has probably had some situation where they didn't sign the log but logged a Found it online. The sky did come crashing down, they were not struck by lightening bolts, and (most importantly) the cache owner did not delete the online find. If you want to be a puritan, you may adopt a personal rule to not log a Find online unless you have signed the logbook. No cache owner or anyone else can force you to log online against your will. Heck, there are even people who sign the physical log who won't log online. You don't have to log online if you didn't sign the log book. You don't have to log online if you did sign the log book. The online find is not the score. The online find is not a reward that the cache owner gives out. There is nothing official about an online find log. It is simply a way for cachers to share their experience hunting the cache. Cache owners are supposed to delete bogus logs because these are log from people who didn't even hunt the cache. Cache owners are currently given a lot of leeway in determining what is a bogus log. If some puritan cache owner wants to believe every log is bogus until he checks the physical log, they can use that definition. From the guidelines for hiding a cache: For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit. If my cache MUST contain a logbook to be a valid cache, then finders MUST sign it. The requirement for a physical log is to allow puritans to play the game they want to play. There has to be a log to sign for those geocachers who want to define "find" in those terms. In reality, the intent is that when you find a cache you do sign the log. This provides proof to you as a finder that you have actually found the cache (and not some letterbox hidden nearby) and that you have met any physical or mental challenge that was intended by the hider to be part of the experience of finding this cache. The argument that is being made, is that signing the log is not required to log the find online. If the finder has a good reason for not being able to sign the log, the cache owner shouldn't be deleting the find log. It is up to the cache owner to determine what is a good reason. TOZ, I will have you know that you just crashed one version of the old Eliza AI program with just one single sentence from the above litany. It is just sitting there, hiccuping. Its really sad. I'm very glad that I didn't input a paragraph, let alone the entire post. I hope you're happy that you killed Eliza. Quote Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 TOZ, I will have you know that you just crashed one version of the old Eliza AI program with just one single sentence from the above litany. It is just sitting there, hiccuping. Its really sad. I'm very glad that I didn't input a paragraph, let alone the entire post. I hope you're happy that you killed Eliza. I remember that old program. We used to hook up two terminals and have them talk to each other. Inevitably, one of the programs would crash. You're just finding this out? Quote Link to comment
+redsox_mark Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Sorry, haven't been following for a while. Have we arrived at a conclusion yet? Jeremy called, and he wants to know what you guys came up with. I told him I'd be getting back to him soon. No conclusion. There are pretty much 2 camps: 1. Those who say "of course, you must always sign the physical log - absolutely no exception" and 2. Those who say "of course, if you have cached for long enough there will be some circumstances where the cache is found but the physical log can't be signed... and logging a find is OK as long as the CO agrees" Because the answer is so obvious to both sides I don't think there can be a consensus. As I said the last time this topic came up, in practice I think it is much less of an issue than the amount of debate on the forum would lead one to believe. First of all, the cases where the log can't be signed are few. Secondly, it only becomes an issue if the CO disagrees with the action taken by the finder. I suspect the number of found logs which get deleted by a CO for the sole reason of lack of physical signature (even if an explanation, photo evidence, etc is provided), is low. It's certainly not happened to me. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 The online find is not the score. The online find is not a reward that the cache owner gives out. There is nothing official about an online find log. It is simply a way for cachers to share their experience hunting the cache. That's what it was meant to be. Instead it has become a sort of commodity, or a reward that can be withheld or bestowed, at times for things that have little to do with finding a geocache. Too many people have missed the point, which is why discussions such as this one pop up often. But some people LIVE to push the envelope or dance on the "acceptable" line. They have to have things spelled out exactly for them. Exactly. Rather than looking at a guideline and considering the spirit of the guideline, they pick apart every word, probing for ambiguities or alternate definitions. That leads to changes to the guidelines, after which many of the same people complain about more rules. Quote Link to comment
GOF's Sock Puppet Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 The online find is not the score. The online find is not a reward that the cache owner gives out. There is nothing official about an online find log. It is simply a way for cachers to share their experience hunting the cache. That's what it was meant to be. Instead it has become a sort of commodity, or a reward that can be withheld or bestowed, at times for things that have little to do with finding a geocache. Too many people have missed the point, which is why discussions such as this one pop up often. You are correct. It is because of that number next to the smilie face. That number has turned this game into a competition. Without the number the found log would have remained just a way to share the experience. Quote Link to comment
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