Fire Tacks... damage to public or private property?

[+brslk]

You do understand that the person that cuts the tree down in the forest is not the last person to put a saw to it right?

How many 40' pieces of round lumber with bark on it do you see at home depot?

 

Not only do the machines in the sawmill mill them down to usable lumber but there is also a yard crew that cut the raw lumber into sizes that fit into the milling machines.

Really! wow, they should make those pieces of equipment automated so that they can handle large volume and protect the operator...wait they do!

 

Actually most of the mills use hand held saws in the yard before they go through the "pieces of equipment" that are "automated".

 

Have you ever even been to a lumber mill?

 

I know I have. I worked at one when I was younger and have several friends that still do.

[+Pork King]

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

 

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

 

And, yes, I DO eat bacon.

Is it normal to cut down trees at chest or head height?

 

Even when trees are not claimed as lumber...

 

Have you ever seen a cleanup crew cleaning up fallen trees/debris in a park after a storm (or anywhere for that matter)? They cut the tree into manageable sections. Depending on the size of the tree, that could mean 2-10 ft sections. At 2ft, that's up to 4 cuts in the 8 feet from the base to where a tall man could reach.

 

 

And even when we aren't talking about human life, If even a single piece of metal (fence pieces, large nails, spikes, etc) hit the chipper just right at the pulpwood mill I used to work at, it could break a blade and shut the mill down for a couple of hours while we had to change all 12 chipper blades. Even if they didn't break, they dulled down to the point of lower production. That's a lot of money someone's losing.

[+Flintstone5611]

Even when trees are not claimed as lumber...

 

Have you ever seen a cleanup crew cleaning up fallen trees/debris in a park after a storm (or anywhere for that matter)? They cut the tree into manageable sections. Depending on the size of the tree, that could mean 2-10 ft sections. At 2ft, that's up to 4 cuts in the 8 feet from the base to where a tall man could reach.

 

 

And even when we aren't talking about human life, If even a single piece of metal (fence pieces, large nails, spikes, etc) hit the chipper just right at the pulpwood mill I used to work at, it could break a blade and shut the mill down for a couple of hours while we had to change all 12 chipper blades. Even if they didn't break, they dulled down to the point of lower production. That's a lot of money someone's losing.

Enjoy the tangent! I have used a chainsaw, I have cut through nails and non-wood debris. If a man is worth his salt, he will wear the right equipment and not cry when he gets a booboo!

 

Try to stay on topic.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Flintstone5611

[+brslk]

Even when trees are not claimed as lumber...

 

Have you ever seen a cleanup crew cleaning up fallen trees/debris in a park after a storm (or anywhere for that matter)? They cut the tree into manageable sections. Depending on the size of the tree, that could mean 2-10 ft sections. At 2ft, that's up to 4 cuts in the 8 feet from the base to where a tall man could reach.

 

 

And even when we aren't talking about human life, If even a single piece of metal (fence pieces, large nails, spikes, etc) hit the chipper just right at the pulpwood mill I used to work at, it could break a blade and shut the mill down for a couple of hours while we had to change all 12 chipper blades. Even if they didn't break, they dulled down to the point of lower production. That's a lot of money someone's losing.

Enjoy the tangent! I have used a chainsaw, I have cut through nails and non-wood debris. If I am man is worth his salt, he will wear the right equipment and not cry when he gets a booboo!

 

Try to stay on topic.

 

That was one of the most ridiculous things I have read. And it didn't even apply to what he said.

 

I'd like to know what equipment you wear to protect yourself from a chainsaw?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Going to agree with OP. A definite double standard here. I've never understood why fire tacks are permitted, while thumb tacks are not. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Ban everything sticking into the tree, or permit them all.

Same argument used elsewhere: You shouldn't bury a cache on your own property because someone will see it and try to bury a cache in a park. Someone will see a fire tack in a tree, and think it's okay to use a thumb tack, or nail, or screw.

Definitely a double standard.

[+brslk]

Going to agree with OP. A definite double standard here. I've never understood why fire tacks are permitted, while thumb tacks are not. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Ban everything sticking into the tree, or permit them all.

Same argument used elsewhere: You shouldn't bury a cache on your own property because someone will see it and try to bury a cache in a park. Someone will see a fire tack in a tree, and think it's okay to use a thumb tack, or nail, or screw.

Definitely a double standard.

 

You really think there should be a blanket ban or allow?

No common sense involved?

 

I did agree with the OP until he started presenting ridiculous arguments.

[+Flintstone5611]

That was one of the most ridiculous things I have read. And it didn't even apply to what he said.

 

I'd like to know what equipment you wear to protect yourself from a chainsaw?

Have you ever had a chainsaw come after you?!?

 

When you are working with a chainsaw, the chainsaw will kick, but you lads have been complaining about flying "nail bullets"!! You don't wear gloves, work wear, glasses? Spare me the superhuman circumstances that come with being a lumberjack.

[+brslk]

That was one of the most ridiculous things I have read. And it didn't even apply to what he said.

 

I'd like to know what equipment you wear to protect yourself from a chainsaw?

Have you ever had a chainsaw come after you?!?

 

When you are working with a chainsaw, the chainsaw will kick, but you lads have been complaining about flying "nail bullets"!! You don't wear gloves, work wear, glasses? Spare me the superhuman circumstances that come with being a lumberjack.

 

You are completely missing the point. It isn't the projectiles that will seriously hurt or kill the chainsaw operator.

It IS the kickback.

How well will gloves, work wear and safety glasses do then?

 

And you still haven't responded to the cost involved to the lumber mill that a screw or bolt can do to a very expensive saw blade.

 

It's obvious you just like to stir things up with no logical things to say.

 

You walk the line...

[+Flintstone5611]

 

You are completely missing the point. It isn't the projectiles that will seriously hurt or kill the chainsaw operator.

It IS the kickback.

How well will gloves, work wear and safety glasses do then?

 

And you still haven't responded to the cost involved to the lumber mill that a screw or bolt can do to a very expensive saw blade.

 

It's obvious you just like to stir things up with no logical things to say.

 

You walk the line...

I was talking about a nail that would hold up a cache...

Edited June 9, 2010 by Flintstone5611

[+Pork King]

...

Enjoy the tangent! I have used a chainsaw, I have cut through nails and non-wood debris. If a man is worth his salt, he will wear the right equipment and not cry when he gets a booboo!

 

Try to stay on topic.

 

A) That was on topic. I was stating why one should not nail trees, which embed in the tree, as opposed to fire ticks, which do not.

 

Ever hear of tree spiking? Tree Spiking It's an eco-terrorist trick that involves hammering ceramic or metal (most often large nails, screws, or spikes) into trees. While the main purpose of this is to render the timber non-cost effective to harvest, more than one lumberjack has lost his life when his saw kicked back/shattered on this stuff. A face screen and saw chaps is not going to save your life when an industrial saw with a 36" bar and chain shatter on you.

[+Flintstone5611]

 

A) That was on topic. I was stating why one should not nail trees, which embed in the tree, as opposed to fire ticks, which do not.

 

Ever hear of tree spiking? Tree Spiking It's an eco-terrorist trick that involves hammering ceramic or metal (most often large nails, screws, or spikes) into trees. While the main purpose of this is to render the timber non-cost effective to harvest, more than one lumberjack has lost his life when his saw kicked back/shattered on this stuff. A face screen and saw chaps is not going to save your life when an industrial saw with a 36" bar and chain shatter on you.

Please check out post #59. Plus, spiking is not what we are talking about, so yes we are again off topic.

[+brslk]

 

You are completely missing the point. It isn't the projectiles that will seriously hurt or kill the chainsaw operator.

It IS the kickback.

How well will gloves, work wear and safety glasses do then?

 

And you still haven't responded to the cost involved to the lumber mill that a screw or bolt can do to a very expensive saw blade.

 

It's obvious you just like to stir things up with no logical things to say.

 

You walk the line...

I was talking about a nail that would hold up a cache...

 

I'm just going to assume you are drunk rather than stupid.

 

I will bow out for now.

[+northernpenguin]

[+Flintstone5611]

A) That was on topic. I was stating why one should not nail trees, which embed in the tree, as opposed to fire ticks, which do not.

 

Ever hear of tree spiking? Tree Spiking It's an eco-terrorist trick that involves hammering ceramic or metal (most often large nails, screws, or spikes) into trees. While the main purpose of this is to render the timber non-cost effective to harvest, more than one lumberjack has lost his life when his saw kicked back/shattered on this stuff. A face screen and saw chaps is not going to save your life when an industrial saw with a 36" bar and chain shatter on you.

So i guess you are for putting nails in trees for caching sake?

 

Your link quoted this:

 

When a tree is spiked, someone hammers a piece of hard material such as metal or ceramic into the tree. The tree is not damaged by this activity, as plenty of hard objects lodge in trees naturally, and trees are able to adapt their growth patterns to scar over the affected area. However, when a logger attempts to cut a tree down, the tree spike will catch on the saw blade, causing it to break or shatter. Even if a spiked tree is successfully felled, it can still wreak havoc at a mill, as a spiked tree did in 1987 when it caused a sawblade to shatter, almost killing a mill worker.

[+Flintstone5611]

I'm just going to assume you are drunk rather than stupid.

 

I will bow out for now.

Finally

[Andronicus]

I have a few point

 

1) I am not a lumberjack, but I am having a hard time believing that a nail or screw the size likely to be used to hold up a geocache is going to hurt a lumberjack, or the massive saws used in a mill. When EcoTerrorists spike a tree, they use large spikes (the kind we nailed into trees for our bear hunting tree stands, or likely even larger). Remember that logging is rarly done manualy anymore. Large tree cutting things (trackters?) are used with enormus saw blades.

 

 

 

2) Around here, most of our trees are Poplar. Their bark is very thin. a 4mm tack would likely go all the way through into the wood.

 

3) A screw is very easy to remove, just use a screw driver and it will come right out.

 

4) The damaged caused to a tree by a nail or screw likley to be used to hold up a geocache is a non-issue. The tree will not even notice.

 

5) I believe that the only legit reason for banning nails is the land manager issue. Thankfully most of our public land is "Crown" land. There is no manager, just empty land covering most of our Country.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Andronicus

[GOF and Bacall]

 

You are completely missing the point. It isn't the projectiles that will seriously hurt or kill the chainsaw operator.

It IS the kickback.

How well will gloves, work wear and safety glasses do then?

 

And you still haven't responded to the cost involved to the lumber mill that a screw or bolt can do to a very expensive saw blade.

 

It's obvious you just like to stir things up with no logical things to say.

 

You walk the line...

I was talking about a nail that would hold up a cache...

 

I'm just going to assume you are drunk rather than stupid.

 

I will bow out for now.

 

Name calling now. That is always an effective debate tool.

[+northernpenguin]

I have a few point

 

5) I believe that the only legit reason for banning nails is the land manager issue. Thankfully most of our public land is "Crown" land. There is no manager, just empty land covering most of our Country.

 

Careful about that. I don't know about Alberta but in Ontario the Crown Land *is* managed by the Regional (County) Governments. They haven't really cared much until the last few years though as recreational uses and "resource extraction" needs have been meeting more often in these forests (think hunters vs hikers).

 

I still believe the fire tacks are mainly acceptable to these land managers as it is tied to their revenue stream via hunting permits. Hunters expect to use them, but to be a devil's advocate the hunters also have a habit of nailing stands and platforms to the trees -- which has far more impact than a birdhouse does.

[+Flintstone5611]

I have a few point

 

1) I am not a lumberjack, but I am having a hard time believing that a nail or screw the size likely to be used to hold up a geocache is going to hurt a lumberjack, or the massive saws used in a mill. When EcoTerrorists spike a tree, they use large spikes (the kind we nailed into trees for our bear hunting tree stands, or likely even larger). Remember that logging is rarly done manualy anymore. Large tree cutting things (trackters?) are used with enormus saw blades.

 

 

 

2) Around here, most of our trees are Poplar. Their bark is very thin. a 4mm tack would likely go all the way through into the wood.

 

3) A screw is very easy to remove, just use a screw driver and it will come right out.

 

4) The damaged caused to a tree by a nail or screw likley to be used to hold up a geocache is a non-issue. The tree will not even notice.

 

5) I believe that the only legit reason for banning nails is the land manager issue. Thankfully most of our public land is "Crown" land. There is no manager, just empty land covering most of our Country.

Wow, well put!

[+brslk]

 

You are completely missing the point. It isn't the projectiles that will seriously hurt or kill the chainsaw operator.

It IS the kickback.

How well will gloves, work wear and safety glasses do then?

 

And you still haven't responded to the cost involved to the lumber mill that a screw or bolt can do to a very expensive saw blade.

 

It's obvious you just like to stir things up with no logical things to say.

 

You walk the line...

I was talking about a nail that would hold up a cache...

 

I'm just going to assume you are drunk rather than stupid.

 

I will bow out for now.

 

Name calling now. That is always an effective debate tool.

 

Where is the name calling?

[+t4e]

this tree survived after "swallowing" a a wall, i highly doubt it that a fire tack or a nail is going to kill any tree

 

[+Flintstone5611]

this tree survived after "swallowing" a a wall, i highly doubt it that a fire tack or a nail is going to kill any tree

 

Amazing pic!!

[Andronicus]

I have a few point

 

5) I believe that the only legit reason for banning nails is the land manager issue. Thankfully most of our public land is "Crown" land. There is no manager, just empty land covering most of our Country.

 

Careful about that. I don't know about Alberta but in Ontario the Crown Land *is* managed by the Regional (County) Governments. They haven't really cared much until the last few years though as recreational uses and "resource extraction" needs have been meeting more often in these forests (think hunters vs hikers).

 

I still believe the fire tacks are mainly acceptable to these land managers as it is tied to their revenue stream via hunting permits. Hunters expect to use them, but to be a devil's advocate the hunters also have a habit of nailing stands and platforms to the trees -- which has far more impact than a birdhouse does.

 

In Alberta the only time the county cares about Crown land is when someone want to build on it, or lease it (and I think that leasing is managed by the province).

 

And I aggree about the tree stands. Like I mentioned, the spring that we did some bear hunting, we bought the biggest nails we could find, and nailed them into trees around the bait site to use as ladders to get into the tree stands. We were planning to take them out, but the tree's sap locked them in in less than 2hours. After the season ended, there was not a chance of getting them out. I guess that is why you should use those strap on steps.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Andronicus

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

That's a good shot t4e! My guess though, is that the tree was worked on by "Dr. Masonry" in order to prevent pest invasion. In that the tree is now growing around the wall, he looks to have been a good surgeon.

 

BTW -- just who in the world defaced the tree behind and to the left? Engineer marking tape -- the bane of all treedom!

[+brslk]

this tree survived after "swallowing" a a wall, i highly doubt it that a fire tack or a nail is going to kill any tree

 

 

Umm look at the trees around it.. they have leaves... that one doesn't.

 

It looks to you like it "survived"?

 

Seems to me it's the only dead tree in the pic.

[+JJball]

Why is it 100% acceptable to people to place fire tacks in trees, but if a person were to nail something into a tree or screw an apparatus into a tree then they immediately are taken to task by cachers and reviewers alike?

 

Because Groundspeak doesn't sell nails?

 

Hahahahahaha

[+Dr. House]

I have a question for the OP:

 

In your caching history, you must've seen many other things that some groups may have issue with. Some of those things may be:

1. Geo-trails that lead off defined paths toward a geocache
   
2. Lampskirt micros in parking lots or other private property
   
3. Caches placed beyond "Private Property" or "No Trespassing" signs
   

(I'm certain there are more placements that have caused issues for specific groups, but it gets kinda long and boring.)

 

So I'm kinda curious... Why pick on firetacks?

Edited June 9, 2010 by Dr. House

[knowschad]

The log gets run through a very expensive saw blade at the lumber mill.

That is why the pros and the sawmills use metal detectors. What on earth has this got to do with firetacks?

[+t4e]

That's a good shot t4e! My guess though, is that the tree was worked on by "Dr. Masonry" in order to prevent pest invasion. In that the tree is now growing around the wall, he looks to have been a good surgeon.

 

BTW -- just who in the world defaced the tree behind and to the left? Engineer marking tape -- the bane of all treedom!

 

thanks, that is part of a multi here in town

 

as for the second tree, its on University grounds who knows what the kids tossed in it, but there was some construction going on at the time

 

 

Umm look at the trees around it.. they have leaves... that one doesn't.

 

It looks to you like it "survived"?

 

Seems to me it's the only dead tree in the pic.

 

i'm sure you are aware that not all trees come alive at the same time, some are late bloomers, the picture was take on may 9, with the wacky weather here in Canada most trees are not green until the end of may, besides that is the bottom of it, there's a lot more tree at the top

 

i can assure you that tree is alive and well, its been around for many many years

Edited June 9, 2010 by t4e

[knowschad]

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

It does? We are not supposed to use firetacks because they may injure or kill a lumberjack when he is cutting the tree down? I had no idea! Thanks for clarifying the real problem.

[+Flintstone5611]

I have a question for the OP:

 

In your caching history, you must've seen many other things that some groups may have issue with. Some of those things may be:

1. Geo-trails that lead off defined paths toward a geocache
   
2. Lampskirt micros in parking lots or other private property
   
3. Caches placed beyond "Private Property" or "No Trespassing" signs
   

(I'm certain there are more placements that have caused issues for specific groups, but it gets kinda long and boring.)

 

So I'm kinda curious... Why pick on firetacks?

Actually I am wondering about the inverse. No one has a problem with firetacks, but if I were to put a nail in a tree it would be an act of Eco terrorism!? I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception. I am not calling for a ban on firetacks, I am asking for an equal opportunity situation for small nails and screws!

[+brslk]

The log gets run through a very expensive saw blade at the lumber mill.

That is why the pros and the sawmills use metal detectors. What on earth has this got to do with firetacks?

 

It has nothing to do with that. I and the OP went hugely off topic and discussed how things placed in trees damages them.

 

I have yet to see a tree cutter use a metal detector though.

 

Firetacks... neat things...

 

Again I derail a thread...

[+Dr. House]

I have a question for the OP:

 

In your caching history, you must've seen many other things that some groups may have issue with. Some of those things may be:

1. Geo-trails that lead off defined paths toward a geocache
   
2. Lampskirt micros in parking lots or other private property
   
3. Caches placed beyond "Private Property" or "No Trespassing" signs
   

(I'm certain there are more placements that have caused issues for specific groups, but it gets kinda long and boring.)

 

So I'm kinda curious... Why pick on firetacks?

Actually I am wondering about the inverse. No one has a problem with firetacks, but if I were to put a nail in a tree it would be an act of Eco terrorism!? I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception. I am not calling for a ban on firetacks, I am asking for an equal opportunity situation for small nails and screws!

 

Is there any particular reason why this injustice has just struck you now?

[knowschad]

The log gets run through a very expensive saw blade at the lumber mill.

That is why the pros and the sawmills use metal detectors. What on earth has this got to do with firetacks?

 

It has nothing to do with that. I and the OP went hugely off topic and discussed how things placed in trees damages them.

 

I have yet to see a tree cutter use a metal detector though.

 

Firetacks... neat things...

 

Again I derail a thread...

I own a metal detector that was made for just that purpose. To detect railroad spikes before running them through a saw. Mine cost, oh... about 20 bucks. I'm sure the saw mills that spend hundreds or more on a single sawblade spend a little more than that on their technology.

 

Yeah, I'd agree this thread has been derailed. From fire tacks that might hurt a tree, to something that can damage a saw blade?

[+Flintstone5611]

 

Is there any particular reason why this injustice has just struck you now?

My father died in a freak firetack incident. Actually I was just bored at work.

[+Dr. House]

 

Is there any particular reason why this injustice has just struck you now?

My father died in a freak firetack incident. Actually I was just bored at work.

 

You mean, he wasn't wearing protective gear?

[+Pork King]

Yeah, I'd agree this thread has been derailed. From fire tacks that might hurt a tree, to something that can damage a saw blade?

 

I think it's still on topic... The OP asked why firetacks are considered OK when nails/screws are not. From what I read, most posts have been about why nails/screws are so much worse than tacks.

 

To go slightly off topic, I'd like just to address several things in one post...

 

1)The "copper poisoning" mentioned earlier... If one or two copper nails could poison a tree, then any tree ever hit with a modern bullet would wither and die...

 

2)The sawmills/metal detector issue... While most sawmills have metal detectors, they don't always catch the smaller stuff that can become projectiles, or some of the larger, deeply embedded stuff. Most pulpwood mills have no metal detector/magnets in place until after the timber has been chipped. If you've never heard a few links of logging chain hit a chipper or bark hog spinning at 1500 RPM, it's awful.

 

3) Manual logging... There are still plenty of areas that heavy machinery can't get into that are still logged by chainsaws and yarders or helicopters.

 

This thread went from mildly useful to a forum equivalent of a drunken family reunion real quick. I just gotta say I was playing devil's advocate for the most part, just bringing up worst-case scenarios.

 

I just gotta say that I am against nails/screws in trees for the sake of geocaching. I think we should be more "ecofriendly than that. If not for all that other stuff, what if an animal cuts itself on it and suffers?

I also really don't approve of firetacks all that much. I think the purpose of them being so easy to remove is that one SHOULD remove them after use (i.e. walking back out of the woods). Just my opinion, and I know what opinions are like, because everybody has one.

 

There. I'm done.

[+brslk]

Yeah, I'd agree this thread has been derailed. From fire tacks that might hurt a tree, to something that can damage a saw blade?

 

I think it's still on topic... The OP asked why firetacks are considered OK when nails/screws are not. From what I read, most posts have been about why nails/screws are so much worse than tacks.

 

To go slightly off topic, I'd like just to address several things in one post...

 

1)The "copper poisoning" mentioned earlier... If one or two copper nails could poison a tree, then any tree ever hit with a modern bullet would wither and die...

 

2)The sawmills/metal detector issue... While most sawmills have metal detectors, they don't always catch the smaller stuff that can become projectiles, or some of the larger, deeply embedded stuff. Most pulpwood mills have no metal detector/magnets in place until after the timber has been chipped. If you've never heard a few links of logging chain hit a chipper or bark hog spinning at 1500 RPM, it's awful.

 

3) Manual logging... There are still plenty of areas that heavy machinery can't get into that are still logged by chainsaws and yarders or helicopters.

 

This thread went from mildly useful to a forum equivalent of a drunken family reunion real quick. I just gotta say I was playing devil's advocate for the most part, just bringing up worst-case scenarios.

 

I just gotta say that I am against nails/screws in trees for the sake of geocaching. I think we should be more "ecofriendly than that. If not for all that other stuff, what if an animal cuts itself on it and suffers?

I also really don't approve of firetacks all that much. I think the purpose of them being so easy to remove is that one SHOULD remove them after use (i.e. walking back out of the woods). Just my opinion, and I know what opinions are like, because everybody has one.

 

There. I'm done.

 

Well put.

[+Flintstone5611]

You mean, he wasn't wearing protective gear?

You guessed it, lol! You could never understand how this has propelled my OCD!

[+Dr. House]

Something still doesn't make sense about your desire to discuss whether nails/tacks/screws/bolts/other pointy objects should be allowed to be placed into trees/poles/posts/guardrail supports/whatever. For some *crazy* reason, I don't buy the "bored at work" rationale.

 

See, it is in our nature not to care about injustices until that perceived injustice happens to us or someone close to us; we simply have no reason to. It is simply not logical to pick up a cause and tout it's merit without something having started an individual down that road. It's almost like you or someone you know tried to have (or perhaps did have) a cache published that utilized a screw or something which came to a reviewer's attention causing it not to be published (or archived, if it had been published). Perhaps this cache took a fair amount of effort to dream up and create and plan out... who knows.

 

I think someone said something about angst on the first page of this thread, and I now believe they're correct. I'm not so sure anymore that the intent of this post was to discuss pointy objects in geocaching, but rather to vent about a "great" cache they took some part in that got denied or whacked.

 

If so, it's unfortunate, really, that you should feel slighted by the volunteer reviewers who work hard to keep our game within certain parameters and away from any sort of scrutiny that would see us perceived as vandals; Groundspeak supports them and their decisions and so should you.

[Clan Riffster]

It is simply not logical to pick up a cause and tout it's merit without something having started an individual down that road.

And yet, the Hollywood nitwits do just that, every day...

[+Flintstone5611]

See, it is in our nature not to care about injustices until that perceived injustice happens to us or someone close to us; we simply have no reason to.

Not a big Philosophy fan, huh?

 

It is simply not logical to pick up a cause and tout it's merit without something having started an individual down that road.

Yup so far we are bursting at the seems with logic, no emotion, just plain old logic.

 

It's almost like you or someone you know tried to have (or perhaps did have) a cache published that utilized a screw or something which came to a reviewer's attention causing it not to be published (or archived, if it had been published). Perhaps this cache took a fair amount of effort to dream up and create and plan out... who knows.

I know! And in all honesty, you got the wrong diagnosis! I have no problem venting about my errors or the follies of my brethren (even if they might). So we are 0-3

 

If so, it's unfortunate, really, that you should feel slighted by the volunteer reviewers who work hard to keep our game within certain parameters and away from any sort of scrutiny that would see us perceived as vandals; Groundspeak supports them and their decisions and so should you.

As stated in the outset, I have seen it happen (but not to me or mine) and I don't need to change the game for my (or someone I know) creativity...or lack thereof. I wanted people to question the "mob" mentality that I have noticed on the subject.

 

I know that it is hard for some you to believe that others don't have the same motivations for doing things as you have been accustomed to, but I really don't have anything more invested in this than anyone else here. Btw, I thought you were an MD not a shrink?

[+northernpenguin]

As stated in the outset, I have seen it happen (but not to me or mine) and I don't need to change the game for my (or someone I know) creativity...or lack thereof. I wanted people to question the "mob" mentality that I have noticed on the subject.

 

 

Around here (Ontario) the 'mob' mentality mainly stems from the guidance the reviewers put forth a few years ago that caches utilizing screws and nails would not be published while caches with firetacks would be. Over time that just became the 'common knowledge' that may appear to be some sort of common hysteria.

 

In reality there are about 3 or 4 reviewers for the area and all of them are providing the same advice to cachers who want to stick pointy things into trees. When the information all comes from the same place, it is much easier to have everyone agreeing what those guidelines are.

 

It is because it is. If this is a genuine attempt to change the guideline your most appropriate action would be literally to take it up with a reviewer or two, or perhaps appeals.

[+t4e]

It is simply not logical to pick up a cause and tout it's merit without something having started an individual down that road.

 

i really don't agree with that statement, its not true at all

 

its very logical for inquiring minds to want to know more

 

you don't need something to affect you personally to start a discussion about it, you mean to tell me that you never discussed anything that you just read about in a paper or heard of in the news, without it affecting you personally?

Edited June 9, 2010 by t4e

[+briansnat]

Actually I am wondering about the inverse. No one has a problem with firetacks, but if I were to put a nail in a tree it would be an act of Eco terrorism!? I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception. I am not calling for a ban on firetacks, I am asking for an equal opportunity situation for small nails and screws!

 

Won't happen. The perceptions of land managers is a key factor. We've spent years trying to fight the perception that we are "those people who dig up our parks" with a degree of success. We don't want to become known as "those people who drive nails into our trees".

 

Whether or not nails hurt trees is irrelevant. What is relevant is that doing so can hurt our image.

 

I wanted people to question the "mob" mentality that I have noticed on the subject.

 

What you call mob mentality, I call consensus.

 

Thankfully most of us realize that we are allowed to practice our sport only through the good graces of land managers and that we need to do everything we can to avoid potential negative perceptions.

Edited June 9, 2010 by briansnat

[+northernpenguin]

Actually I am wondering about the inverse. No one has a problem with firetacks, but if I were to put a nail in a tree it would be an act of Eco terrorism!? I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception. I am not calling for a ban on firetacks, I am asking for an equal opportunity situation for small nails and screws!

 

Won't happen. The perceptions of land managers is a key factor. We've spent years trying to fight the perception that we are "those people who dig up our parks" with a degree of success. We don't want to become known as "those people who drive nails into our trees".

 

Whether or not nails hurt trees is irrelevant. What is relevant is that doing so can hurt our image.

 

I wanted people to question the "mob" mentality that I have noticed on the subject.

 

What you call mob mentality, I call consensus.

 

Thankfully most of us realize that we are allowed to practice our sport only through the good graces of land managers and that we need to do everything we can to avoid potential negative perceptions.

 

Big time +1 to that!

[+bflentje]

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

[+Flintstone5611]

Actually I am wondering about the inverse. No one has a problem with firetacks, but if I were to put a nail in a tree it would be an act of Eco terrorism!? I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception. I am not calling for a ban on firetacks, I am asking for an equal opportunity situation for small nails and screws!

 

Won't happen. The perceptions of land managers is a key factor. We've spent years trying to fight the perception that we are "those people who dig up our parks" with a degree of success. We don't want to become known as "those people who drive nails into our trees".

 

Whether or not nails hurt trees is irrelevant. What is relevant is that doing so can hurt our image.

 

I wanted people to question the "mob" mentality that I have noticed on the subject.

 

What you call mob mentality, I call consensus.

 

Thankfully most of us realize that we are allowed to practice our sport only through the good graces of land managers and that we need to do everything we can to avoid potential negative perceptions.

 

Agreed!

[+Dr. House]

It is simply not logical to pick up a cause and tout it's merit without something having started an individual down that road.

 

i really don't agree with that statement, its not true at all

 

its very logical for inquiring minds to want to know more

 

you don't need something to affect you personally to start a discussion about it, you mean to tell me that you never discussed anything that you just read about in a paper or heard of in the news, without it affecting you personally?

 

I think we're saying the same thing here, actually. If I read something in the paper or heard about it in the news, that's an impetus to discuss. Some things affect us more personally than others, but we just don't simply begin talking about something unless there is something that starts that conversation; there's always a spark.

 

In the case of the OP here, I was getting concerned that their firetack/nail/screw inquiry might be a feigned concern brought about by the recent archiving of their teammates' cache GC28E0Z. Clearly, I am mistaken as something else must've cause them to start this thread. My apologies to the OP for thinking otherwise, and let the debate continue.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

The problem with extremism is that it negates the credibility of a message.

 

If your message is one of conservation but you argue that trees are damaged by firetacks then your audience is likely to write you off as an extremist nutcase and dismiss your message.

 

Will a firetack hurt a tree? Extremely unlikely. Millions are used each year in the US and there has been no indication of ecological impact.

 

In fact many Eco-warriors drive iron railroad spikes into trees to prevent timber companies from cutting trees. Metal spikes do nasty things to saws and can cause severe injury to the operator, so once notified that a forest has been randomly spiked few if any timber companies will take the risk of harvesting trees from that land. Even these extremists do not believe that these spikes hurt the tree.

 

Are there land managers who would ban folks from their land for putting a firetack in a tree? I posit that one would be very hard to find.

 

The conservation message is a good one. Don't encourage people to ignore it by going off on extreme positions. Once people decide that you are beyond the pale you no longer have a credible message and have negated any value you may have brought to the debate.

 

NOTE: "You" and "your" are used herein to indicate everyone and do not directly address the OP alone.

Edited June 9, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler