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Fire Tacks... damage to public or private property?

Flintstone5611
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TheAlabamaRambler

+TheAlabamaRambler

Posted
Posted (edited)

...Enjoy the tangent! I have used a chainsaw, I have cut through nails and non-wood debris. If a man is worth his salt, he will wear the right equipment and not cry when he gets a booboo!

 

Try to stay on topic.

There's a name for folks who think like that. They're soon called "casualties". :angry:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The problem with extremism is that it negates the credibility of a message.

 

If your message is one of conservation but you argue that trees are damaged by firetacks then your audience is likely to write you off as an extremist nutcase and dismiss your message.

 

Will a firetack hurt a tree? Extremely unlikely. Millions are used each year in the US and there has been no indication of ecological impact.

 

In fact many Eco-warriors drive iron railroad spikes into trees to prevent timber companies from cutting trees. Metal spikes do nasty things to saws and can cause severe injury to the operator, so once notified that a forest has been randomly spiked few if any timber companies will take the risk of harvesting trees from that land. Even these extremists do not believe that these spikes hurt the tree.

 

Are there land managers who would ban folks from their land for putting a firetack in a tree? I posit that one would be very hard to find.

 

The conservation message is a good one. Don't encourage people to ignore it by going off on extreme positions. Once people decide that you are beyond the pale you no longer have a credible message and have negated any value you may have brought to the debate.

 

NOTE: "You" and "your" are used herein to indicate everyone and do not directly address the OP alone. :angry:

I think you are absolutely right. Most of the responses reflect a similar tone. I don't have a problem with firetacks, I have seen them used quite creatively. I wonder why people feel that a nail of equal size and shape is any different? It is a lesson in futility. We can't all agree on everything, but the open (and somewhat frank) disscussion of the issue is welcome.

tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted

Around here (Ontario) the 'mob' mentality mainly stems from the guidance the reviewers put forth a few years ago that caches utilizing screws and nails would not be published while caches with firetacks would be. Over time that just became the 'common knowledge' that may appear to be some sort of common hysteria.

 

In reality there are about 3 or 4 reviewers for the area and all of them are providing the same advice to cachers who want to stick pointy things into trees. When the information all comes from the same place, it is much easier to have everyone agreeing what those guidelines are.

 

It is because it is. If this is a genuine attempt to change the guideline your most appropriate action would be literally to take it up with a reviewer or two, or perhaps appeals.

Thank You. I now understand why 80% of the posts in this thread are from Canadians. The Canadian reviewers seem to have adopted a rule of thumb regarding what can or cannot be put in trees.

 

The official guidelines say nothing about tacks, or screws, or nails. They simply say not to deface property. Reviewers can't actually go and check every cache and see it defaces property or not. They can't read a land manager's mind as to when something stuck in a tree is large enough that land manager would say it defaces the tree. Instead the reviewers adopt rules of thumb to deal with reports of caches that deface property. These rules may be influenced by local conditions. This seems to be more a problem in Canada than elsewhere. It certainly seems to be more debated by Canadians than others, eh?

SooMukwas

+SooMukwas

Posted
Posted

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

 

They don't have mouths either so we can't hear them say, "Ouch!" :angry:

TheAlabamaRambler

+TheAlabamaRambler

Posted
Posted

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

 

They don't have mouths either so we can't hear them say, "Ouch!" :angry:

If a tree says "Ouch" in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

Then why is it that they like to be hugged, huh?
northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted
Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

Then why is it that they like to be hugged, huh?

Have you asked a tree if it wants a hug? :angry:

What did it tell you?

 

Last time I asked, all the tree had for me was a bark.

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted
Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

Then why is it that they like to be hugged, huh?

Have you asked a tree if it wants a hug? :angry:

What did it tell you?

 

Last time I asked, all the tree had for me was a bark.

It asked me to leave, so I took a bough, and made my exit.
4wheelin_fool

4wheelin_fool

Posted
Posted
Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

Then why is it that they like to be hugged, huh?

Have you asked a tree if it wants a hug? :angry:

What did it tell you?

 

Last time I asked, all the tree had for me was a bark.

It asked me to leave, so I took a bough, and made my exit.

 

That still doesn't get to the root of the question.

TheAlabamaRambler

+TheAlabamaRambler

Posted
Posted (edited)

wouldn't paper logbooks also be considered damaging to trees? ...

 

Depends what the paper is made of. It could be hemp, rice paper, recycled paper, dried frog droppings ....

I vote for hemp because, um, you know, we need it for paper. ;):angry:

 

And squeezing frogs to collect their droppings... who wants that job? :D

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
Avernar

+Avernar

Posted
Posted

Have you asked a tree if it wants a hug? :angry:

What did it tell you?

You're asking a dog for advice on trees? ;)

 

Hugging them afterward is probably not a good idea...

edscott

+edscott

Posted
Posted (edited)

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

It does? We are not supposed to use firetacks because they may injure or kill a lumberjack when he is cutting the tree down? I had no idea! Thanks for clarifying the real problem.

 

C'mon read the post, then reply.. NAILS = not good and fire tacks = OK... The original post was why there's a difference. No one with any authority has said we can't use fire tacks.. at least not yet.

 

Oh never mind.. I skipped a page and didn't realize the thread had disintegrated. :angry:

Edited by edscott
-cheeto-

+-cheeto-

Posted
Posted

Interesting discussion this thread is.

 

If I follow reviewer logic (as covered in this thread) and guidelines (as quoted in this thread), than is it safe to say I could hang a cache container from a tree using a fire tack? Assuming the container could be suspended using a fire tack. Or perhaps a bunch of fire tacks?

 

I've often thought about this double standard as well...

TheAlabamaRambler

+TheAlabamaRambler

Posted
Posted

Interesting discussion this thread is.

 

If I follow reviewer logic (as covered in this thread) and guidelines (as quoted in this thread), than is it safe to say I could hang a cache container from a tree using a fire tack? Assuming the container could be suspended using a fire tack. Or perhaps a bunch of fire tacks?

 

I've often thought about this double standard as well...

I don't see why you couldn't hang something small and light from a firetack, if you just want to make some sort of point. Have you ever seen a firetack? They are very similar to plain thumbtacks. You don't hammer them into trees, you push the little 3/8" pin in with your fingers. On large trees the pin barely pierces the bark. If you hang something from one the first cacher to touch it will likely pull the tack out.

 

A firetack or two is the standard for marking night cache trails. Handfuls of firetacks probably wouldn't be smiled upon.

JohnX

JohnX

Posted
Posted

I'd like to know what equipment you wear to protect yourself from a chainsaw?

 

I wear Kevlar chaps, heavy leather gloves, steel toed boots, safety glasses and a chainsaw helmet with hearing protection. I spent more on safety equipment than I did on by best chain saw.

GeoGeeBee

+GeoGeeBee

Posted
Posted
Last I checked, trees don't have a central nervous system.

Then why is it that they like to be hugged, huh?

Have you asked a tree if it wants a hug? :angry:

What did it tell you?

 

Last time I asked, all the tree had for me was a bark.

 

It must have been a dogwood.

humboldt flier

+humboldt flier

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hmmmm, here in Redwood Country we have a storied lumbering past. It is not uncommon to see trees which have accommodated and grown around logging equipment from days gone by. Seeing healthy trees with 1" and 1 1/2 wire rope as part and parcel of the package leads me to believe that a fire tack is not even a miniscule annoyance to some trees.

 

Now maybe other parts of the country where wanna be trees dot the landscape firetacks might cause deep physiological, psychological and emotional trauma. ( tongue in cheek )

Edited by humboldt flier
kmartcachier

+kmartcachier

Posted
Posted

This thread is a good example of why most internet forums aren't as useful as they could be. Every disagreement is taken as a personal challenge to get in the last word and it devolves into emotional declarations of "double standards" and "injustice". There is no double standard here. A double standard would mean that different people have to follow certain rules while others follow different ones. This is a guideline, and rather than saying nothing can be stuck to trees, it has been decided that it only the smallest things can. That's it. And if you are wanting to rectify an injustice, I would politely suggest that you go find one.

Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

Posted
  • Author
Posted

This thread is a good example of why most internet forums aren't as useful as they could be. Every disagreement is taken as a personal challenge to get in the last word and it devolves into emotional declarations of "double standards" and "injustice". There is no double standard here. A double standard would mean that different people have to follow certain rules while others follow different ones. This is a guideline, and rather than saying nothing can be stuck to trees, it has been decided that it only the smallest things can. That's it. And if you are wanting to rectify an injustice, I would politely suggest that you go find one.

Ah come on, tell us how you honestly feel!

ironman114

+ironman114

Posted
Posted

...

Enjoy the tangent! I have used a chainsaw, I have cut through nails and non-wood debris. If a man is worth his salt, he will wear the right equipment and not cry when he gets a booboo!

 

Try to stay on topic.

 

A) That was on topic. I was stating why one should not nail trees, which embed in the tree, as opposed to fire ticks, which do not.

 

:( Ever hear of tree spiking? Tree Spiking It's an eco-terrorist trick that involves hammering ceramic or metal (most often large nails, screws, or spikes) into trees. While the main purpose of this is to render the timber non-cost effective to harvest, more than one lumberjack has lost his life when his saw kicked back/shattered on this stuff. A face screen and saw chaps is not going to save your life when an industrial saw with a 36" bar and chain shatter on you.

 

 

Better read your link better and do more research. Your link states:

 

"almost killing a mill worker." Not killing him.

 

In my research I only found one documented injury. It involved an 11 inch spike. The worker also claimed he had complained to his boss that the band saw blade was wobbly and cracks had begun to appear in it. He had thought about not going to work because the blade was so bad and new ones hadn't arrived.

Castle Mischief

+Castle Mischief

Posted
Posted

This thread is a good example of why most internet forums aren't as useful as they could be. Every disagreement is taken as a personal challenge to get in the last word and it devolves into emotional declarations of "double standards" and "injustice". There is no double standard here. A double standard would mean that different people have to follow certain rules while others follow different ones. This is a guideline, and rather than saying nothing can be stuck to trees, it has been decided that it only the smallest things can. That's it. And if you are wanting to rectify an injustice, I would politely suggest that you go find one.

 

Welcome to the interweb. Lower your expectations.

 

325775.full.gif

Snow_Friends

+Snow_Friends

Posted
Posted

Not to hijack, but what about hiding caches in bushes? Not only is it hard to look through bushes in a stealth manned, I've seen where the shrub avove the cache started to bald because the number of cachers reaching into grab the cache.

 

But back to the OT, I have a great example to agree with your point and will try to post it when I get home.

Castle Mischief

+Castle Mischief

Posted
Posted

Not to hijack, but what about hiding caches in bushes? Not only is it hard to look through bushes in a stealth manned, I've seen where the shrub above the cache started to bald because the number of cachers reaching into grab the cache.

 

But back to the OT, I have a great example to agree with your point and will try to post it when I get home.

 

My goodness! What if I were to trim that bush with electric hedge clippers! I might hit the container and a catastrophe may ensue! CATASTROPHE!! ENSUE!!!!

 

The interweb has many things to teach us. Today I learned that a 1" firetack is the exact same thing as a railroad spike the size of my foot.*

 

 

 

*Don't put firetacks where you don't have permission. Geez.

Nature Kids

+Nature Kids

Posted
Posted

Wow....does everyone know that the usual end result of a tree, is some type of lumber product? Nails, screws, wire & anything else put into a tree devalues the lumber in the tree. The tree will grow over the objects, that can damage saws many years later, when they are harvested. Also there will be a stain in the wood where the screw was, even if it is removed.

The first log in a tree, the bottom 10 ft.. is usually the most valuable. An oak veneer log can be worth $ thousands, one nail can reduce the price substantially. Even firetacks can cause damage to the lumber, if they don't rust away before the tree grows over them.

Save our trees because the lumber looks so pretty in our houses..........

northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted

Wow....does everyone know that the usual end result of a tree, is some type of lumber product?

 

No, it isn't. Most of the forests around here that the OP is referring to are not harvested for their wood. Lots of forests are yes, but the usual end result of a tree in Ontario (for example) is to die, fall over and rot on the forest floor. Some are harvested.

Castle Mischief

+Castle Mischief

Posted
Posted (edited)

Wow....does everyone know that the usual end result of a tree, is some type of lumber product?

 

I can think of plenty of trees that will never be used for lumber. I don't if I'd say the "usual" end result. Certainly it is what a great number of trees are used for, but there are plenty of areas were caching and tress coincide and there is never an issue or possibility of these same trees being used for lumber.

 

EDIT: I'd add that in most areas were the trees are grown/harvested for lumber the issue would not be one of damage to "public property" but private property.

Edited by Castle Mischief
needaxeo

+needaxeo

Posted
Posted

It looks to you like it "survived"?

 

Makes you wonder if he shouldn't get someone else to check that grandpa's ok...

 

I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception.

 

You were arrested and charged for using a nail in a tree?

Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I like drawing attention to injustices that stem from popular perception.

 

You were arrested and charged for using a nail in a tree?

Why do you think that injustice can only stem from the legal system?

 

I am (in this case) refering to when you hear that someone (a volunteer reviewer) uses their authority to deny someone else (a cacher), something that isn't against the rules (using a nail or screw to fasten a cache into a tree) but has been metamorphosed it into an interpretation of what they perceive to be the spirit of that law (that even a small nail or screw will hurt a tree, although it seems that a firetack is irreprehensible).

 

That's is what I meant, but great try. FLAME ON!!

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