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TEAM 360

110 year-old Benchmark find in great condition!

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Today I found Benchmark FS1086, which was the 35 degree latitude post for the Territory of Arizona, when it was placed and last recorded back in 1893. Unbelievable! The wood post is still there, rock solid as the day it was placed, with the rocks still around it in the original pattern. The post is slightly worn at the top from 110 seasons, and full of bullet holes. I did in fact retrieve several bullets from the post and will be having them analyzed. I called the Mohave County Museum and they were so excited they connected me right to the Director, who is sending out a surveyor to record this find. I will be posting photos of this incredible find tomorrow on the Benchmark page. I still can't believe it.

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Congratulations! That's a really cool find. I wish I could have bragging rights for something like that!

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My congrats too! That is terrific! If it's listed in the NGS sheets, make an entry. I listed two recoveries recently, and they are both now in the datasheet history. Way to go!

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

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What an awesome find! I have recovered a benchmark from the 1885 (DH2453) but it's only a mountain, which will be there for another 1,000 years. I would love to find an actual marker as old as the one you have located. I got a kick out of finding some disks from the early 1930s, I can't imagine the euphoria I would feel if I found a mark from the 1800s. Congrats!

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

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icon_smile.gifConrats!! That is great! It means more to me to find one with some history. Would that be one of the earlier ones out in your area? (The East coast folks may have it easier finding the older ones.)

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Pics are up on the benchmark page. As far as I know, that one was the oldest one in the area. This post was obviously used for target practice through the years. I did take about 6 bullets out of the post, and I will see if the Phoenix PD would help in determining the age of the ammunition. If they find anything, I will post it here. Who knows? Maybe a bullet from Wyatt Earp when he left Tombstone on his journeys to Alaska and California? Doc Holliday? The Clanton gang? The possibilities are endless....(I am still jacked up from this one, if you can"t tell. I think I will only do the "oldie" ones from here on out, the others just don't give you the feeling of being the first in a hundred years....)

 

[This message was edited by TEAM 360 on April 12, 2003 at 08:41 PM.]

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How would one go about finding "old" benchmarks? Let's say I'd like to try and rediscover some benchmarks in my area that haven't been logged in a long time. Is there a way to search their database for benchmarks in Colorado and sort them by find date?

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Very cool. And a search of nearby benchmarks shows there are several other very old ones still waiting for you within a few miles of that one. Have fun. I'd be out there tomorrow if I had some like that to find.

 

Maybe it will inspire me to see if I can find anything similiar in the northern Illinois area.

 

Oldest one I've found was a 1922 BM that was last logged in 1960. Still was quite enjoyable to track that one down.

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109 Years you beat me by a year. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=HE0206

And the Origin of this one goes to the very beggining of the Public Lands States. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=EH2910

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on April 12, 2003 at 05:42 PM.]

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Excellent work, 360, I guess it must have been in a pretty remote spot to have survived in its original condition so long, unless someone was protecting it. I would bet the men who set it never expected it to last half so long. I just hope that the people you notified about it will now follow through and take steps to insure that others will still be able to see it 110 years from now. Actually, you are in an ideal area, the desert southwest, for making these type of finds. The dryness of the climate out there is a major factor that allows points of this type to have even a chance to survive. Countless wooden posts were also set in the east and midwest, but any as old as yours would almost certainly have completely decayed by now in those areas.

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Indiana Cojones - Don't know if you are aware or not of the update on the NGS datasheet page. I was on the site yesterday and you can now search the NGS database by state and county. You would then have to look at each sheet, I suppose, to see the last time it was logged. I found a USGS benchmark, placed in 1934, and never logged since. It was in excellent shape, easy to locate (walked about 100 feet from a maain road) and was on an operating railroad until about 20 years ago. I'm sure some surveyor or other must have used it over the years, just based on the number of manmade structures (infrastructure things) in the area, but I guess no one ever bothered to enter a recovery until I did.

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

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I found EE2251 a few weeks ago. The station mark and two reference marks have been reset, but there are still two original granite reference mark posts with an X and an arrow chiseled, monumented in 1875. 128 years ago. icon_eek.gif As you said, I was pumped after finding that one. The oldest disk I've found was a 1933. I'd love to find an older disk. Congratulations on your find!

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The oldest one I ever found was also from 1875, a stone marker in New Mexico. My oldest disks were one from 1906 in Virginia and one from 1908 in New Mexico. I have never heard of any disks older than 1900 being found, although there may be some out there, they were not used on a regular basis before about 1905.

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Very cool find; any chance you could post a link to the pics for the 'Benchmark-ily' challenged among us? icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

Very cool find; any chance you could post a link to the pics for the 'Benchmark-ily' challenged among us? icon_biggrin.gif


 

If you are talking about the Eads Bridge marker, it is on the web page I did:

http://www.dustyjacket.com/benchmarks.html

 

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case... icon_biggrin.gif

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If you select the Eads Bridge link in my post above -- that will get you to the page for the JC0043 benchmark. My photos and some links to Eads Bridge info. can be found there. Or just select the benchmrk link here.

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happycycler- Nice set of photos! Was the closeup of the BM taken with an SLR and telephoto lens, or with a digital/zoom? Anyway, thanks for an interesting set of photos.

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

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Thank you catcher24.

Digital zoom (10X). Sony Mavica MVC-FD75. Low quality (640X480) but great zoom and I like using 3.5 floppy discs for storage.

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Sorry, happycycler. Been away from the boards for a while. Thanks for the reply. Can't believe you took that with a Mavica! Good photos for the web, that's for sure!

 

Catcher24

"You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

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Congrats Team 360 you beat me by a year. I found one in my back yard that hadn't been recovered since in was placed in 1894 (JR0987). I reported it back in Nov. 2002 and we all see it everyday here at the Park. Again the dry high desert air keeps things in great shape.

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quote:
Originally posted by survey tech:

I have never heard of any disks older than 1900 being found, although there may be some out there, they were not used on a regular basis before about 1905.


 

I have found two: NA1433 in Binghamton, NY, from 1898; and LZ0500 in Troy, PA from 1899.

 

Zhanna

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Very good, those are some very early ones indeed. It makes sense that they would turn up near old buildings that have been protected for their historic value. It may turn out that you happen to be in one of those areas where disks were first put to use.

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When I saw this find, I was inspired to include Needles in my itinerary for a road trip to the Grand Canyon and environs. Last week we made it there and took a look at this benchmark in person. I posted a photo showing some of the remaining markings on the post. FS1086

 

While I was there, I also went looking for the Von Schmidt markers on the California side. The iron post FS1100 is accompanied by two historic markers. And, there is actually a virtual cache associated with it.

 

I was also able to find the cairn for FS1117. The post is no longer in place and appears much more weathered than the one on the Arizona side.

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126 Years ?? Still studying on the history but have finally got one recovered in the NGS Data Sheets,with this and several of the others. GG0052 http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=GG0052 It has not been updated on our site yet but has at the NGS, Thanks to Geocaching.

 

THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL IN THE FOREST DOES NOT EVEN LIVE THERE*********WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" 200TH ANNIVERSARY AND THE "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://lewisclark.goeg.missouri.edu http://www.lapurchase.org http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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I've found another early benchmark disk: LY0602. This one's from 1900. I really enjoy the challenge of finding these older marks!

 

Zhanna

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There really is a lot of satisfaction in recovering the old marks. I think that's what makes benchmarking more enjoyable to me than geocaching is (though the pleasures of that activity are not to be denied). Given the choice between a Tupperware container full of trinkets and a stone marker set by Mason and Dixon (

JU3840), the granite wins every time.

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What a great find, ArtMan! icon_smile.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

... I have not seen one set into a step like that.


 

I'm pretty sure it's the only one I have come across. I've found a few set horizontally into a step at the entranceway to a building (KV2794, LY2640) but nothing else placed vertically in a set of steps like that one.

 

Zhanna

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quote:
Originally posted by Zhanna:

...NA1433 in Binghamton, NY, from 1898


Just found an interesting type of a benchmark which seems to be an immediate ancestor of these early disks. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=LP0487. It is a round metal marker with a cross mark, leaded into a rock 116 years ago. It is a part of the Transcontinental Survey, roughly along 39th parallel, of the 1880s, which used quite a few of these X-marked copper bolts along with more traditional cairns and posts.

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Awesome find, Mockba! I recommend everyone read the log on LP0487, which puts us urban/suburban benchmarkers to shame.

 

ArtMan

 

PS - What's the Slavic connection between Zhanna and Mockba?

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quote:
Originally posted by ArtMan:

PS - What's the Slavic connection between Zhanna and Mockba?


 

Excellent observation! I'm impressed. icon_smile.gif Well, other than the fact that both names are Russian, I don't know of any connection. MOCKBA—are you Russian? Have you been to the city you're named after? Maybe you know some of my friends there. icon_smile.gif

 

Zhanna

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quote:
Originally posted by ArtMan:

...Slavic connection ...?


Wow, not bad - where have you learned Cyrillics?

 

quote:
...suburban benchmarkers...

Well it *is* a suburban location in the local contect. Grantsville is 20 minute commute to the big city office parks, and at 9200 ft elevation, Onaqui is probably the smallest of the mountains used by the transcontinental survey. Compare e.g. with Ibapah, a 12,000+ peak with the nearest gas station in almost 100 miles from the trailhead.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Zhanna:

...I don't know of any connection...


 

maybe rock and the Rockies? In truth, there is a connection between this thread, which made me think about the history and the technology of survey marks, and my decision to spend a couple of days looking for the Onaqui BM.

 

I did spend almost 3/4 of my life in Moscow, not that I am a totally crazy fan of that city, but it is a distinction of sorts. And besides you can spell MOCKBA in Latin letters, and this is fun!

 

But back to the rock. Weren't there just *one* queen Zhanna in Russian rock? Did I miss the coronation of Zhanna II anyhow? A puzzle for sure.

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quote:
Originally posted by MOCKBA:

I did spend almost 3/4 of my life in Moscow, not that I am a totally crazy fan of that city, but it is a distinction of sorts.


 

Hmm, the phrase "Nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there" comes to mind. What history in that city, though.

 

quote:
But back to the rock. Weren't there just *one* queen Zhanna in Russian rock? Did I miss the coronation of Zhanna II anyhow? A puzzle for sure.

 

I gave myself this nickname because of my taste in music. I prefer such bands as Splean, DDT and Okean Elzi (Ukrainian, but most people can't tell the difference icon_eek.gif) I'm not very musical myself—just a sorry impostor. icon_smile.gif At least I only took half the title. Zh.A. is the Queen of Russian Rock & Roll, I believe.

 

Zhanna

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Not to get off track, but I stayed in Rechnoy Vokzal for a bit in 94, and then in 2000 I stayed in a flat on Leningradskiy Prospekt and went to Adler/Sochi...gotta get back to the Chorne Mora soon...

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We are weering way offtrack, and straight into a location with no geocaching or benchmarking activity whatsoever [icon_smile.gif].

quote:
Originally posted by Zhanna the Impostor (no problem with this, I just 1st noticed the Queen notation late last night, was tired and drunk and indeed kind of dumbfounded) :

the phrase "Nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there" comes to mind...


Why, I loved to live there, and would gladly do it again. Rechnoy is my old neighborhhod BTW. 'Course you can't climb a mountain after work if you live in Moscow, but there is plenty of good public lands to hike, mushroom, xc-ski, or orieenteer all around the city.

It is just that the city has some NYC-like, disagreeable qualities. Like it may be obnoxious and unhelpful; rootless new power and new money rules; everybody seems to be a clueless new migrant, speeking with accents and bewildered by subway station names; and so on. Still love it dearly, just can't push it - it ain't for everybody to enjoy.

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quote:
Originally posted by MOCKBA the Genuine:

We are weering way offtrack, and straight into a location with no geocaching or benchmarking activity whatsoever icon_smile.gif.


 

Yes, I see. icon_smile.gif What do you know about surveying in Russia?

 

quote:
Why, I loved to live there, and would gladly do it again. Rechnoy is my old neighborhhod BTW.

 

I don't doubt that it is a great city, as cities go. How close is that to Medvedkovo?

 

Zhanna

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quote:
Originally posted by Zhanna:

What do you know about surveying in Russia?


Not much personal exposure except I liked climbing those rickety trig towers as a kid. And mapped the city streets with a compass and bicycle odometer, to correct the outcrying distortions on the commercially available maps of the time.

They'll be celebrating 225 years of geodetic serivice in Russia next year. But any data equivalent to the US BM locations are classified (Decree of Roskartografiya N 181?? of 12/14/00 specifically lists as secret the locations of federal geodetic network, astronomical points, points of survey networks, references, and marks) (?????? ??????????????? ????????????? ????, ??????????????? ??????, ????? ????????? ?????, ?????? ? ????? ??????????????? ?????????? ?????)

Caching OTOH may have been legalized recently. A decision of Federal Commission on Electric Comunications (????) #54 of 2/26/03 allows personal use of GPS and Glonass receivers, except for recording coordinates of objects which locations are explicitly classified ( http://www.gisa.ru/9169.html )

quote:
How close is <Rechnoy> to Medvedkovo?


Very close in music icon_smile.gif, ever heard Vysotsky's song mentioning 'Khimki and Medvedki' on the same line? May be 5 mi airline in reality, with the added challenge of crossing Savelovo RR line separating the two areas.

 

[This message was edited by MOCKBA on July 01, 2003 at 09:36 AM.]

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quote:
As Mockba notes: "They'll be celebrating 225 years of geodetic serivice in Russia next year. But any data equivalent to the US BM locations are classified"

 

Interesting but not surprising. An historic heritage of state secrecy going back at least to the Czars is not easily undone.

 

Do you happen to know if there are special purpose survey monuments - equivalent to U.S. benchmark disks - that one might happen upon while, say, strolling on the Arbat?

 

ArtMan

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quote:
Originally posted by ArtMan:

Do you happen to know if there are special purpose survey monuments - equivalent to U.S. benchmark disks - that one might happen upon while, say, strolling on the Arbat?


Possibly so. Haven't seen an urban 'reper' (BM) ever. Looking them up on a topo map seems easier to me. The more recent designs are horizontal disks with a half-inch hole in the center, for mounting equipment (?). Posts with a small bar sticking out in the center are common, too. Repers would be marked with a word 'reper', its designation, authority (such as branch of govt. or surveying organization), and year, and usually a warning that it is a govt. property (don't remember the exact wording, everything around was a govt. property at the time, but it was some sort of a warning not to mess around with it, but unlike in the US, it wouldn't spell out how much that would cost :-).

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Caching OTOH may have been legalized recently. A decision of Federal Commission on Electric Comunications (????) #54 of 2/26/03 allows personal use of GPS and Glonass receivers, except for recording coordinates of objects which locations are explicitly classified ( http://www.gisa.ru/9169.html )

 

Therein lies your court-defense. How am I supposed to know I was next to a classified benchmark, if I don't know where it is? This is going along the same lines as archaeological dig sites that are secret. Can't avoid 'em if I don't know where they are. I DO know I don't want to end up in some Russian prison, that's for sure...

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:
A decision of Federal Commission on Electric Comunications (????) #54 of 2/26/03 allows personal use of GPS and Glonass receivers, except for recording coordinates of objects which locations are explicitly classified ( http://www.gisa.ru/9169.html )

Therein lies your court-defense. How am I supposed to know I was next to a classified benchmark, if I don't know where it is?


I didn't attempt to convey the precise hair-splitting legal formulas from the document. In a place which combines overall anarchy with the vestiges of police state, exact legalities may be of little immediate use anyway. All I wanted to point out was that a few month ago, the govt. legalized personal GPS receivers. I think this *is* important. Do you agree?

 

If you want a more precise info, the GKES stated that 'personal receivers of satellite navigation can be used without limitations'. It also stated, separately, that the task of protecting the secret coordinates is the domain of the respective security services (read: not a headache of communications, consumer electronics, customs, or mapping and travel regulators). Just practically, I would suggest not *marking* any artifacts or structures.

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quote:
Originally posted by MOCKBA:

And mapped the city streets with a compass and bicycle odometer, to correct the outcrying distortions on the commercially available maps of the time.


 

Now that I would love to see (the maps, I mean, not you personally cycling around the city with your compass icon_smile.gif). I don't imagine there's a chance you still have the maps?

 

quote:
...ever heard Vysotsky's song mentioning 'Khimki and Medvedki' on the same line?

 

??, ???????. icon_smile.gif

 

This site might be useful and interesting to those who are still following this thread: http://www.nakarte.ru/

 

Here's the English version of the Moscow maps: http://moscow-en.nakarte.ru/

 

Zhanna

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deleted. nothing more to say. way off subject.

 

[This message was edited by TEAM 360 on July 02, 2003 at 10:23 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

...How am I supposed to know I was next to a classified benchmark, if I don't know where it is? This is going along the same lines as archaeological dig sites that are secret...


 

Just wanted to share an interesting link about the recent US moves to classify mapping of publicly documented artifacts. It's in today's Wash Post, take a look:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23689-2003Jul7.html

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383 Year old benchmark.

Anybody that ever gets to Plymouth you gotta see the Rock.Plymouth national Monument

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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