Train fare = commercial?

[+Happy Bubbles]

Would you consider a cache that requires you to buy a train ticket to be "commercial?" Say the cache isn`t accessible by any other means, and the cheapest ticket is 120 yen, about $1.33. Do you think this would be a violation of the guidelines? If you were a reviewer, would you publish such a cache? If you found such a cache and felt it was a guideline violation, would you post an SBA?

 

From the guidelines

Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

 

Personally, I think it`s technically a violation of the letter of the guidelines, but not blatant enough to warrant an SBA. What do you think?

[+geodarts]

 

Its been a long time since I have been in a Japanese train station, but I assume that this cache is behind the gate and requires you to enter it. Access fees seem to be contemplated in some situations, as the fee attribute suggests. There are some caches in my area requiring you to purchase ferry tickets to get out to an island, entrance fees to get to particular trailheads, and the like. I have paid fees to get into National Parks for earthcaches and virtuals. Not to mention Disneyland. And various caches require you to watch geysers or look at petrified trees after paying an entrance fee. So I suppose if the fee is incidental to a cache, that is one thing. But if a cache was set up to advertise or promote a particular service, it might cross the line.

 

I might have other questions about the particular cache, but without knowing more I am not sure that I would call it commercial. But then again I am not a reviewer and my opinion is worth less than the train fare.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Erickson

[+palmetto]

I am a reviewer, and it's nearly impossible to review hypothetically and particularly from limited information.

If I were reviewing an actual cache submission, I'd have coords, maps and the ability to ask questions.

 

What you've described seems unlikely, unless the cache is on the train or in the ticket office.

Otherwise it seems unlikely that there's no other access.

[+cw1710]

I found one on Coco Cay which is Royal Carribean's private island and the only way to get to it is by sailing on one of their cruise lines. That costs a lot more than $1.33. Seeing as there is an attribute that says parking or access fee required I would say that a fee does not make it commercial. If they are not advertising or promoting on the cache page then it should be ok.

 

Edit: Well, there is other ways to access the island but I dont know how long you would be on there before they ran you off.

Edited March 12, 2010 by cw1710

[+Mom-n-Andy]

99% of the geocaches I've found have required me to purchase gasoline for my car and drive somewhere. What's the difference?

[+bittsen]

99% of the geocaches I've found have required me to purchase gasoline for my car and drive somewhere. What's the difference?

they don't require gas. Driving is an option. You would also have a choice of where you bought the gas, even if driving IS required.

 

That example is as lame as they come.

Requiring an admission fee is borderline commercial.

[+palmetto]

"one on Coco Cay which is Royal Carribean's private island"....which any person may access. Access is not limited to cruise guests.

[+Happy Bubbles]

I am a reviewer, and it's nearly impossible to review hypothetically and particularly from limited information.

If I were reviewing an actual cache submission, I'd have coords, maps and the ability to ask questions.

 

What you've described seems unlikely, unless the cache is on the train or in the ticket office.

Otherwise it seems unlikely that there's no other access.

 

The caches I`m thinking of are a series hidden on train platforms. Someone posted an SBA on them back in January, but there`s been nothing but smilies since then so I assume the reviewer and CO worked it all out in private. I was just wondering if the SBA-poster`s opinion is a common one.

[+Walts Hunting]

I have done many caches that are in parks that have an entrance fee. The earthcaches in Yellowstone for example. I don't see why paying for a train ride would be commercial.

 

Although I am not a reviewer it seems to me that the prohibition on commercial is related to having a companies or business's name on the cache. Even then I have found them in a business.

 

There is one in a bar in Yuma and in Algadones there is one in a restaurant and you have to ask the cashier to take it out so you can access it. It is an ammo can in the glass display case.

[GermanSailor]

99% of the geocaches I've found have required me to purchase gasoline for my car and drive somewhere. What's the difference?

All of those geocaches where in a location where you NEEDED a car, since you couldn't get there by foot, bicycle or horse?

 

GermanSailor

[+Pax42]

I also know of many caches hidden in state parks that require entrance fees. As long as that info is clearly posted on the cache page I don't see a problem with it.

[+J the Goat]

 

There is one in a bar in Yuma and in Algadones there is one in a restaurant and you have to ask the cashier to take it out so you can access it. It is an ammo can in the glass display case.

 

My opinion? Stupid idea.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Happy Bubbles,

I've done a few that required entering a subway station to gather required information. $2.25 I thought that they were great caches! The caches are, obviously, not in the subway stations. Likewise, I have paid entry fees to parks, tolls on highways, and fees for ferries. None of these are considered to be commercial. Public entities own the subways, toll roads and ferries, and are not-for-profit. So, IMHO, these are not commercial. Having to enter Disneyland, or a restaurant, on the other fin, would be considered commercial. It did cost us $25 to get into the New York Botanical Garden on a weekend, but would have been free if we'd gone on Wednesday. But, again, that is a not-for-profit organization.

What would concern me is the proximity of the caches you mention to railroads. (Though that ban might not be important in Japan.)

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

There is one in a bar in Yuma and in Algadones there is one in a restaurant and you have to ask the cashier to take it out so you can access it. It is an ammo can in the glass display case.

 

My opinion? Stupid idea.

 

I've seen listings for several caches in Africa and South Africa that are "hidden" such that you have to get help from a shop owner to retrieve the container. In some cases it's the only cache around for miles and the cache has a "full time" local maintainer. In none of the cases I read was there a requirement to pay a fee or purchase anything to get the cache and sign the log.

[+sbell111]

The commercial guideline is one that is often 'violated' with approval from TPTB. As such, it isn't really useful to second guess one when a reviewer is knows to have taken a look at it, in my opinion.

[+Touchstone]

Would you consider a cache that requires you to buy a train ticket to be "commercial?"

 

Yes.

 

Do you think this would be a violation of the guidelines?

 

Without Groundspeak approval, yes. With Groundspeak approval No.

 

If you were a reviewer, would you publish such a cache?

 

I would direct the cache owner to Appeals for approval of the cache, then after approval, Publish it.

 

If you found such a cache and felt it was a guideline violation, would you post an SBA?

 

Probably not, since I am not privy to the private conversations between the cache owner and Groundspeak, and there is no requirement to state such approval on the Listing.

 

If it were a relatively new Listing, I might be provoked to send a private email to the Publishing Reviewer just to give them a heads up of what the situation is.

[+webscouter.]

 

There is one in a bar in Yuma and in Algadones there is one in a restaurant and you have to ask the cashier to take it out so you can access it. It is an ammo can in the glass display case.

 

My opinion? Stupid idea.

 

I've done the Algadones cache and it is the best way to hide a cache in Algadones. It was my first cache in Mexico and is naturally cammo'd in the glass case. With the other stuff in the case and the painting that has been done on the ammo can it looks like it belongs with the rest of the items in the case.

[+Castle Mischief]

So in Japan the proximity to the tracks is not the same issue as it is in the States? Interesting.

[+Touchstone]

So in Japan the proximity to the tracks is not the same issue as it is in the States? Interesting.

 

All local laws apply.

 

My understanding is that parts of Europe also do not have the same right of way issues that is present in the U.S. Although with the Sarin attacks in the Tokyo subway, I would assume that the level of security would be significantly higher in a Japanese train station than they would be in the U.S.

[+Cairngorm]

Having to enter Disneyland, or a restaurant, on the other fin, would be considered commercial.

There are two caches in Disneyland, and another in the California Adventure. That's why it's the happiest place on Earth.

But that's a pricey day's caching.

[+sbell111]

Having to enter Disneyland, or a restaurant, on the other fin, would be considered commercial.

There are two caches in Disneyland, and another in the California Adventure. That's why it's the happiest place on Earth.

But that's a pricey day's caching.

TPTB are also on record that traditional DL/WDW caches would be listed if the permission issue was worked out. The commercial guideline would not apply to these caches.

[+infiniteMPG]

I've done the Algadones cache and it is the best way to hide a cache in Algadones. It was my first cache in Mexico and is naturally cammo'd in the glass case. With the other stuff in the case and the painting that has been done on the ammo can it looks like it belongs with the rest of the items in the case.

There is a similar cache in St. Augustine Visitor Center that you have to ask an attendant to retrieve the ammo can and they bring it out to you. But it's no where in sight when you arrive but the instructions are in the listing.

 

Pretty much every state park in Florida has admission fees and they pretty much all have caches. Seems the "commercial" aspect is open to interpretation as you have to state the admission information in the listing. I can recall having a listing declined because I put "adopt your next best friend here" for a cache near an animal shelter so I think the difference is if you're "promoting" or not, more then just being somewhere commercial.

[+Ladybug Kids]

Buying a train ticket commercial? Not in my opinion. I'd just wait until I needed to catch a train through that station. Otherwise, I'd just let the cache sit there.

 

The train ticket for this event was much more than $1.33 and no one complained about it.

 

Many Alaska State Parks trailheads have a $5/day or $50/year fee and Denali National Park costs at least $10/family to enter, yet there are approved caches/earth caches in those parks.

 

Why the angst?

[+bittsen]

Here's the question...

 

Do you have to pay the park fee if you walk in as opposed to driving?

[+infiniteMPG]

Here's the question...Do you have to pay the park fee if you walk in as opposed to driving?

The Florida State Parks have a fee that varies from park to park. Some are free, some are $2-$4/per person, some have general "entrance fees", some like HOMOSASSA SPRINGS and WEEKI WACHEE are $13 per person.

 

Florida State Park Fees

[majormajor42]

If the cache was placed by an employee of the company that is collecting the fee, such as the local transport authority, that would put it over the top and make it commercial in my opinion.

[+popokiiti]

When I lived in England, there used to be a fee to purchase a platform ticket at train stations. Good for train spotting, meeting family off the train...don't know if that is still true many years on though.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a small fee....especially if there are washrooms and coffee/food sales!

[+buttaskotch]

99% of the geocaches I've found have required me to purchase gasoline for my car and drive somewhere. What's the difference?

they don't require gas. Driving is an option. You would also have a choice of where you bought the gas, even if driving IS required.

 

That example is as lame as they come.

Requiring an admission fee is borderline commercial.

So in your opinion a state or national park that requires admission fee for entry is commercial???

[+bittsen]

99% of the geocaches I've found have required me to purchase gasoline for my car and drive somewhere. What's the difference?

they don't require gas. Driving is an option. You would also have a choice of where you bought the gas, even if driving IS required.

 

That example is as lame as they come.

Requiring an admission fee is borderline commercial.

So in your opinion a state or national park that requires admission fee for entry is commercial???

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

National parks owned by the public with fees to maintain the public parks are exactly the same as a bus station.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying.

 

~takes eyes out of sockets and gently tosses them across the floor~

 

(amused so much that the my involuntary reflex kicks in and I guffaw until my gluteus maximus separates from my body)