makeing the hardest

March 3, 2010

Develop two puzzles that require knowledge of something truly obscure -- computer programming, higher math, or twisted leaps of logic always seem to be popular. Take a couple of very small containers. Leave one 50 feet in a tree after walking two thirds of the way up one side of a mountain. Put one of your puzzles in there. Then hike 5 miles up the other side of the mountain (one way), bushwhack to some overhanging rocks, scramble up to the top by following a deer trail (if you can find it) but be sure to add some decent rock climbing. Leave the other container there. Make sure that neither container can be seen. If you find yourself face to face with a rattlesnake it will add even more mystique. Publish it as a multistage mystery cache, using one of your puzzles to get you to the first stage, requiring the finder to solve the second to get to the final. If you do it right, you will develop a loyal following.

I've done that cache!!!

14k · March 3, 2010

I think I willput the last stage under water that should make it hard! But that would be hard to place too. one will be up in a tree. one in a cave one on the side of a cliff and part of it will be a night cash

I don't know where else I could put it ? I will just tell u to follow a stream un till u get to this point and say look on the right side of the bank.

this will be an adventure. you will go places not meny ppl have been.

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

That looks like an interesting first cache and the photos one of the finders took make it look like it's an interesting location.

Also keep in mind that this game has been around almost 10 years and that it's an international game (in fact several of the earliest caches are not in the u.S. When making claims of the "hardest" cache and "far off the beaten path" it would be worth looking at some of the caches that have been put out previously to yours. For example, the Erta Ale Volcano cache (GCB5D7) in Ethiopia contains this warning:

"Erta Ale is a shield volcano, part of the East African rift system. In its vast summit caldera there are two pit craters. The smaller crater (140m dia and 60-90m deep) now has an active lava lake. Even now, after the end of the war, the Erta Ale range remains one of the most inaccessible places on earth. There are no roads and temperatures are extremely high. The tribe living there, the Afar people, are proud and strong warriors, often hostile to foreigners.

Getting to Erta Ale is not easy - just to reach the volcano is a test of endurance. The volcano is situated at the bottom of the Danakil Depression, generally considered to be one of the most inhospitable regions on earth, a valley floor 130 m below sea level. The climatic conditions are terrible, with record temperatures 56°C in the shade, but with no shade to be found there."

I've seen listing of caches in other parts of Africa that are very remote. One recommended that the best approach would be to use a helicopter. I'll be looking for on in Tanzania in a couple of weeks that 175 miles from the airport in Dar es Salaam. There's only one other cache between Dar and that cache. I've already had arrangement made for a driver that will take me from where I will be working to the National park where the cache is located (about 1.5 hours drive).

Then there's the one at the bottom of the pacific ocean next to a thermal vent.

Then there are lots of very difficult puzzle caches. Do a search for the "Puzzle Masters Challenge" caches. Most of them are 5 star puzzles. Based on other 4-5 star puzzles I've solved (I just solved a 4.5 star difficulty puzzle in Paris today) a "true" 5 star puzzle will require hours, days, weeks, even months to obtain the actual coordinates.

6.7k · March 4, 2010

Yeah I think there should be a guideline somewhere about that. Personally I decided to find several of each type of cache before hiding one. That will give me an idea of how it should be, and shouldn't be, done.

Nope, that will only tell you how a few cachers in your area hid theirs.

What would happen to creativity if you felt like you had to hide them according to how others you found had hidden them?

I seem to remember quite a lot of excitement regarding one that was hidden in Florida last year. No one could find it. It went for many months, maybe a year, with geocachers from all over the country talking about it and even traveling just to try to find it. It was a great hit.

There was one on a train in, I think, Kentucky just a few months ago that nobody could find. It caused quite e stir here in the forums, with lots of angst and accusations over whether it was there or not. When it was finally found forum poster's were quick to say that it wasn't there before and the cacher had hid it just before it was found.

The difference in the two experiences is that in Florida the hider was well known in the caching community, and when he said that he'd checked and the cache was still there people trusted him, so the hunt was a challenge and not a PITA.

In Kentucky the hider was not well known and folks did not trust his word that the cache was in fact there.

So, if you are going to hide a hard one, be prepared for folks to question if it is in fact there.

Since you are new to the game and haven't developed a reputation you might hook up with a trusted local cacher whose word they will take when he says that he's checked and verified that it's still there.

Folks will go to great extents, travel, return repeatedly, whatever it takes to get a hard cache, but the moment that they lose faith that the cache is there the fun is over.

Edited March 4, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

1.1k · March 4, 2010

"Nope, that will only tell you how a few cachers in your area hid theirs."

With respest I must disagree. Some of the most important advances in science or industry have been modifications on existing ideas. Did not mean to imply I would copy anothers style, only that I would learn what amde a cache fun to look for, and what made a cache...not so fun.

1.1k · March 4, 2010

I think it should go without saying that you should find at least one cache before you hide one.

Yeah I think there should be a guideline somewhere about that. Personally I decided to find several of each type of cache before hiding one. That will give me an idea of how it should be, and shouldn't be, done.

I totally don't agree. I'm pretty new to geocaching and have yet to log a single find (going out this weekend though and expect to log a few) and yet I've already hidden my first cache. While I like both solving and creating puzzles, I accept that there are some people who don't like the hunt but enjoy creating pieces of the game. And while I understand the logic that 'experience hunting gives a better understanding of hiding', I think one can understand the 'rules' of a good hide by simply reading the site and reading about other hides. Sure, it's not as much fun by any means and robs the hider or the fun of the hunt, but for those who just aren't interested in hunting, it's a good way to participate.

Just my $0.02. I'm new so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Anthony

That is what makes this a fine activity and a fine forum. Generally we can disagree and do it civilly. One may be able to understand the mechanics of a hide by reading but there is also more to be learned about the hunt by actually doing it. Granted you can stick a film canister under a rock, take a GPS reading and slap it up on the web. But for me personally that is only half of the game. We are headed toward the same goal just approaching it from different angles. I wish you well on the journey.

19k · March 4, 2010

"Nope, that will only tell you how a few cachers in your area hid theirs."

With respest I must disagree. Some of the most important advances in science or industry have been modifications on existing ideas. Did not mean to imply I would copy anothers style, only that I would learn what amde a cache fun to look for, and what made a cache...not so fun.

I think both sides of these arguments have merit. Before you can advance the state-of-the-art, it is certainly helpful to first know what the state-of-the-art is. But on the other hand, if a newbie goes out and finds five film cannisters hidden in spruce trees, many of them are likely to think "ah, so this is what geocachers like, huh? I want to be well-received in the community, so I'll put out some more of these".

1.1k · March 4, 2010

I think both sides of these arguments have merit.

Well put indeed!

March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

19k · March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

Yes I was, although I am not sure who I am speaking to as he goes by many names :blink:

March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

KC!!!! Did you log your own cache?? Tsk Tsk, This is going in my report! :blink:

7.5k · March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

KC!!!! Did you log your own cache?? Tsk Tsk, This is going in my report!

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lone R

March 4, 2010

I didn't know that i had logged my own, I just got a new gps and loaded a bunch of cachs and i marked mine as found so i wouldn't see mine. i have found about 30 just have never logged any of them. i was just logging a few that i remembered

any one know where i can get ammo cans for cheep ???

i plan on placing a bunch of cachs in april .....Thats when i can drive agine

And im going to make them hard as i can, but still doable

i want hard ones so im going to make hard ones , in the hope that outher will do the same

March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

KC!!!! Did you log your own cache?? Tsk Tsk, This is going in my report!

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

Lone R I was just poking KC for my own sick twisted personal entertainment! :blink:

Had to laugh at how quick he was to point out it wasn't him.

I agree with you on the "Hmmm." I didn't realize you could have multiple accounts.

7.5k · March 4, 2010

I didn't know that i had logged my own, I just got a new gps and loaded a bunch of cachs and i marked mine as found so i wouldn't see mine. i have found about 30 just have never logged any of them. i was just logging a few that i remembered

any one know where i can get ammo cans for cheep ???

i plan on placing a bunch of cachs in april .....Thats when i can drive agine

And im going to make them hard as i can, but still doable

i want hard ones so im going to make hard ones , in the hope that outher will do the same

Looks like you've already put out a difficult cache with fotografer85. 2 miles of mud and downed trees. Nice final location (based on the photos). Cache 120 feet off of your posted lat/long coordinates.

Soft coords are generally frowned upon by the caching community. Many consider it an inferior, unsatisfactory and inappropriate way to up the difficulty.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lone R

7.5k · March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

KC!!!! Did you log your own cache?? Tsk Tsk, This is going in my report!

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

I agree with you on the "Hmmm." I didn't realize you could have multiple accounts.

barryadams307 is looking more and more sock-puppetish as this thread goes on. Multiple accounts, continued poor spelling (probably to irk people - his caches don't reflect a lack of spelling ability, although he blames his cell phone), not mentioning that he's already hidden caches, not logging any finds, not wanting to leave online comments on finds (as stated in another thread). Hmmmmm again.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lone R

19k · March 4, 2010

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

Not quite. That was TC... the co-owner with Barry:

I am TC. Barry and I created this cache. It is better than any i have ever done. I highly encourage giving it a shot.

Edited March 4, 2010 by knowschad

March 4, 2010

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

Not quite. That was TC... the co-owner with Barry:

I am TC. Barry and I created this cache. It is better than any i have ever done. I highly encourage giving it a shot.

Oook! Punctuation is a kick in the teeth.!! I glanced at that and read it as " My name is TC Barry, and I am proud to say I own this cache" My bad!

3.5k · March 4, 2010

I didn't know that i had logged my own, I just got a new gps and loaded a bunch of cachs caches and i marked mine as found so i wouldn't see mine. i have found about 30 just have never logged any of them. i was just logging a few that i remembered

any one know where i can get ammo cans for cheep ???

i plan on placing a bunch of cachs caches in april .....Thats when i can drive agine

And im going to make them hard as i can, but still doable

i want hard ones so im going to make hard ones , in the hope that outher will do the same

Fixed, now geogeebee can read the thread. :blink:

10.2k · March 4, 2010

gps are for finding ur way way off the beaton path and I plan to take u way off that path!!!!!!

I see that you already have one pretty tough multi in play (GC1KKAZ An Epic Adventure) with some very positive log comments.

Keep in mind that you will be responsible for maintenance on all stages.

You aren't really supposed to log your own cache as a found as you did in the one above.

<--- Speaking to BarryAdams307, not to Knowschad

KC!!!! Did you log your own cache?? Tsk Tsk, This is going in my report!

Not KC, BarryAdams307 did under another pseudonym, on Jan. 8 (published Jan 13). Hmmmm.

I agree with you on the "Hmmm." I didn't realize you could have multiple accounts.

barryadams307 is looking more and more sock-puppetish as this thread goes on. Multiple accounts, continued poor spelling (probably to irk people - his caches don't reflect a lack of spelling ability, although he blames his cell phone), not mentioning that he's already hidden caches, not logging any finds, not wanting to leave a comment on finds (in another thread). Hmmmmm again.

So he's logged his own cache as a find, and hid a cache with "soft coordinates". Now if I find out he has a 4th sock puppet that he's logged armchair finds with, I'm really going to be mad. :blink:

March 4, 2010

why do ppl always b*** online ???? whats the point ????

just asking how i can make a good hard cach ????

becuse there isnt any hard ones around me

so anyone got any ideas ???

19k · March 4, 2010

why do ppl always b*** online ???? whats the point ????

just asking how i can make a good hard cach ????

becuse there isnt any hard ones around me

so anyone got any ideas ???

Erikson had some good suggestions for you, and you had some pretty strong ideas in your original post.

Check out this recent thread: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=243059

Some of the caches in this bookmark of mine may give you some ideas: http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.a...d7-63c62e6a96f3 When you see one that interests you, see if anybody else has any bookmarks linked to it, and if so, check that bookmark. You can spent all day following bookmarks and reading about hard caches that way.

3.9k · March 4, 2010

i dont no if youll succeed in makeing the hardest cache or not but i do no that youve probably made the most difficult post to read ever your complete lack of punctuation and capitalization is more than i could take i decided to give you an example to read and see if you realize what youd done also not only did u neglect punctuation you also mispelled alot of words and abbreviated some simple ones i understand your typing on your phone but in my opinion thats no excuse so congratulations on your new status owner of the most difficult post in these forums good job lol

(Whew, that was hard. It's not easy to intentionally not use the caps key, not use punctuation, and misspell that many words. I also had to end the post with "lol" so that the younger crowd would accept it. I didn't actually laugh at my own post.)

I guess you didn't see my translation ?

Yes, I saw it.

What makes you think I didn't?

19k · March 4, 2010

i dont no if youll succeed in makeing the hardest cache or not but i do no that youve probably made the most difficult post to read ever your complete lack of punctuation and capitalization is more than i could take i decided to give you an example to read and see if you realize what youd done also not only did u neglect punctuation you also mispelled alot of words and abbreviated some simple ones i understand your typing on your phone but in my opinion thats no excuse so congratulations on your new status owner of the most difficult post in these forums good job lol

(Whew, that was hard. It's not easy to intentionally not use the caps key, not use punctuation, and misspell that many words. I also had to end the post with "lol" so that the younger crowd would accept it. I didn't actually laugh at my own post.)

I guess you didn't see my translation ?

Yes, I saw it.

What makes you think I didn't?

Ummmm... what you said about "Whew, that was hard" and all that stuff about why it was hard made me think you didn't see my translation.

3.9k · March 4, 2010

i dont no if youll succeed in makeing the hardest cache or not but i do no that youve probably made the most difficult post to read ever your complete lack of punctuation and capitalization is more than i could take i decided to give you an example to read and see if you realize what youd done also not only did u neglect punctuation you also mispelled alot of words and abbreviated some simple ones i understand your typing on your phone but in my opinion thats no excuse so congratulations on your new status owner of the most difficult post in these forums good job lol

(Whew, that was hard. It's not easy to intentionally not use the caps key, not use punctuation, and misspell that many words. I also had to end the post with "lol" so that the younger crowd would accept it. I didn't actually laugh at my own post.)

I guess you didn't see my translation ?
Yes, I saw it.

What makes you think I didn't?

Ummmm... what you said about "Whew, that was hard" and all that stuff about why it was hard made me think you didn't see my translation.

It was hard for me to type all that stuff incorrectly on purpose. Did you read what I wrote above the "Whew, that was hard" stuff?

4.2k · March 4, 2010

Why do people always b*** online? What's the point?

I'm just asking, how can I make a good hard cache?

...because there aren't any hard ones around me.

So, anyone got any ideas?

This translation was performed as a public service.

March 4, 2010

Why do people always b*** online? What's the point?

I'm just asking, how can I make a good hard cache?

...because there aren't any hard ones around me.

So, anyone got any ideas?

This translation was performed as a public service.

wow, There are alot of teachers on here !!!!!

7.5k · March 4, 2010

just asking how i can make a good hard cach ????

so anyone got any ideas ???

To re-iterate my idea regarding making a "good" difficult cache --- don't post soft coordinates. If you do that, many people will ignore all of your cache hides. Soft coordinates are sloppy and not respected by the caching community.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lone R

4.2k · March 4, 2010

wow, There are alot of teachers on here !!!!!

Presentation is everything. Type/text like an AOL chatroom monkey and the world will treat you as such.

6.7k · March 4, 2010

wow, There are alot of teachers on here !!!!!

Actually, not.

You can't teach by criticizing and belittling people, deriding their shortcomings with no idea and no effort to find out why they may not be up to your expected standard, and no desire to help them.

No, that's not teaching, that's just bullying. :blink:

5.8k · March 4, 2010

why do ppl always b*** online ???? whats the point ????

just asking how i can make a good hard cach ????

becuse there isnt any hard ones around me

so anyone got any ideas ???

I think some ideas already came up. Do a search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings, and read the Cache and logs for ideas.

March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

4.2k · March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

Since you're a premium member, you have access to Pocket Queries. You can create a query that results in caches of certain rating.

4.2k · March 4, 2010

wow, There are alot of teachers on here !!!!!

Actually, not.

You can't teach by criticizing and belittling people, deriding their shortcomings with no idea and no effort to find out why they may not be up to your expected standard, and no desire to help them.

No, that's not teaching, that's just bullying.

Oh Ed. You card.

EDIT: However, point taken.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Castle Mischief

March 4, 2010

I didnt know i could do that ,

Thanks that was helpful now just have to wait till i can drive agine to go do some of them

19k · March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

Did you see this post with my bookmark list linked? You will find lots of very difficult caches both directly in my bookmark, and by following other bookmarks on those cache pages.

For example, my bookmark list would lead you to GCHVV2, DeathWish Go to that page, and look at the other bookmarks listed on that page. One that is there is Extreme Caches by Jamie Z that leads you to a cache called GCHRJG TMA-1 that, in turn, has several other bookmarks such as Extreme and Adventure Caches by Vinnie & Sue Team

5.8k · March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

You're a Premium Member, so you can run a Pocket Query set to search for a list of Caches matching your defined parameters.

4.2k · March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

You're a Premium Member, so you can run a Pocket Query set to search for a list of Caches matching your defined parameters.

Is there an echo in here? :blink:

5.8k · March 4, 2010

How do you search for Caches with high Difficulty ratings ?????

only way i know how to is just to look at all of them

???

You're a Premium Member, so you can run a Pocket Query set to search for a list of Caches matching your defined parameters.

Is there an echo in here?

Did I just hear an echo?

March 4, 2010

I think i will use geo check, i will give u some clues of some kind. and u will have to look at maps to find out where it is

has anyone did anything like that ????

geo check http://geocheck.org/index.php

Edited March 4, 2010 by barryadams307

4.2k · March 4, 2010

I think i will use geo check, i will give u some clues of some kind. and u will have to look at maps to find out where it is

has anyone did anything like that ????

geo check http://geocheck.org/index.php

Yes. I'm going to second the suggestion that you look around your area for high difficulty caches and at some of the bookmarked caches.

I'm going to also request, ever so humbly and with no intention of ill will or insult, that you please get off the phone and locate a qwerty keyboard. Textspeak is fine for some situations and in quick bursts between small groups, but generally in larger forums it's more productive to use full-blown English.

March 4, 2010

I'm from Kentucky, we don't talk way around thes hear parts we live in the woods and in caves

well we do talk proper but i cant spell worth a dam. I'm just trying get some idea's to make a new cach.

i get enough writing papers in school

but has anyone used geo check ???????

6.7k · March 4, 2010

Good hard caches...

Otay, here are some that I know of:

I usually hide family-friendly ammo cans in interesting places, but I once got a wild hair to hide a hard one.

I had a chunk of driftwood around ten inches long that I had picked up on the beach in Belize that had been sitting in my barn awaiting its destiny for some years. I used a 1" paddle bit and drilled a hole in the bottom of it and inserted one of the old-style metal 35mm film cans that had the screw-on watertight top, and glued it into the hole where just the ridged edge of the lid stuck out below the driftwood. I painted the lid flat black to match that area of the driftwood.

I found an interesting place, in this case an old cemetery three blocks from my house where the urban legend is that you can hear negro spiritual singing from one of the interred at night. Long story, but I researched it and explained it in the cache description so cachers would know why I thought this spot was worth bringing them to.

I talked to the neighbors and discovered that the family who lived in the adjacent house maintained the half-acre cemetery and that they did not mind cars occasionally parking in the cul-de-sac and cachers visiting the cemetery, but they wanted the cache itself to be in the woods outside the fence (which woods they own). Even better!

I found a good place twelve feet outside the fence where I could lay the driftwood cache on the ground under a particularly memorable-shaped bush (okay, it's a blackberry thorn bramble, so shoot me!) and stepped back. Whoa! I'd just put it there and if I didn't know what I was looking for I wouldn't see it, it just looks so natural. it's in plain sight, not concealed in any way, yet invisible because you expect to see something like that there.

I personally hate DNFs and even more so bad coordinates, and since I knew that I was purposefully making this one hard I got the best coordinates that I could, until I had confidence in them, using both my Garmin 60CSx and my eTrex Yellow. I even went back the next day and checked them with a friend's Magellan Meridian. As I said, I hate bad coords.

Further, I didn't want to be having to go up there every time someone needed a clue, so I took a memorable bearing on some nearby objects. If you stand twelve feet from and facing the cemetery's black iron fence and then raise your left arm straight out beside your body you will be able to look down your arm and see a chain link fence (Interstate off ramp) twenty-five feet in that direction. If you are standing at that point then you don't need a GPS, you are standing on (or very near) the cache! That way if people called me for a clue I wouldn't need to try to figure out the coordinates of where they are, I could just tell them on the phone where to stand to begin their search.

Since it was a micro in the woods I made it clear in the title and listing description that this one was difficult, calling it Rambler's Evil Micro so no one would think that it was an easy find like my others.

Because I hate DNFs I wanted this cache to be found, just not easily, so I included my phone number and mentioned that I lived just down the street, so cachers should feel free to call for a hint.

To my mind this part is critical... you should be available for contact and preferably close to an evil cache. People will want clues and reassurance that the cache is in fact there. Rightly or wrongly there are some egos out there who will insist that if they can't find it then it obviously isn't there! You need to be able to verify the cache when needed.

My plan worked. It is indeed an evil cache to find! In the seven years that it has been hidden it averages better than eighty percent of cachers cannot find it on their first trip, or even on subsequent trips without a clue! :blink:

I hate DNFs (did I mention that?) so I encourage people to call me for a clue. The first one I give them is that standing location I described above and tell them to call back if that doesn't help. If they call back I describe the arched bush that it is under. If they call back again I ask them if they want a spoiler and if so I describe the cache and how to find it, or I get in the car and drive up to meet them. Often they will want to walk away, let me verify that the cache is there, and then go back to hunting it.

I have gotten a lot of pleasure from how much people enjoy this cache and I have met quite a few cachers there. Since I am less than a minute away if I get a call for a clue and I'm not busy I usually go there not only to give them the clue but to point and giggle while they wade around looking for it.

So, that's one idea on how you can hide a cache in plain sight, while still making it hard but also making it fun.

One of my favorites was Patton Creek Challenge, a multi hidden around a large shopping center. I adopted it when the hider moved away but had to archive it when the mall was expanded. It was active for about five years and was widely celebrated as a 'must do' cache. The five stages were around the perimeter of the mall property and would take you on about a one-mile hike or drive.

The first stage was a decon container wrapped in camo burlap, hanging in a tree. You could look right at it and not see it, especially at night.

The second stage was very cleverly done... he worked for the telephone company and knew the guys in their print shop, so he had them make a Do Not Dig sign with the coordinates printed in itty-bitty text under the wording of the sign, and stuck it on a telephone switch box. Every switch box has a sign like this, you expect it to be there, you've seen them your whole life, so VERY few people ever thought to get down on their knees and study the fine print at the bottom. Pure Evil!

For the third stage he found a chain-link fence at the edge of the parking lot, on the other side of which was a steep grassy drop-off going down to a lake maybe 80' below. The grass outside the fence isn't cut so it's always about three feet high. He tied a 20' length of brown fishing line to the very bottom of the fence at ground level, tied on a brown decon container (the grass is brown straw-type stuff), slipped it under the fence so that the string would be at ground level, and threw the container down the hill. Cachers had to search the area and spot the inch or two of visible line at ground level where it was tied to the fence, then make the logical leap that they needed to reel in the line to drag the cache uphill from the grass. Yeah, this was evil genius, especially at night!

From that spot you then had to look a certain distance in a certain direction and spot something that looked out of place. If you looked hard enough you would see something shiny. Go there and it is a stainless steel washer screwed to a tree trunk, about four feet off of the ground. Look closely and the coords to the final were engraved in the washer. Again, right out in plain sight, but who would think of this?

The last stage was an ammo can in the woods off of the mall property, an easy find in and of itself but very few people found the first four stages without help... during the years that I owned it I doubt that many folks completed it without some sort of help, whether they asked me or somebody else.

So, an urban multi in plain sight that was very tough but beloved by all who hunted it.

The last I will mention was again a micro that was exceedingly hard to find but totally visible from twenty feet away. It's archived now because the museum changed hands and we could not get permission from the new owners.

This was at a train museum where they had old trains side-by-side on eight sets of parallel tracks. Obviously these tracks led nowhere and this was not an active rail yard. This meant that you walked a grassy path maybe fifteen feet wide between rows of trains... so you were in a canyon surrounded by vertical walls of metal. GPS signals in such a situation are reflected off of the trains making coordinates iffy at best, and just finding which row of trains to go down was your first chore. You did that by luck or by backing off and doing some triangulation... taking three or four compass and distance readings from different places around the perimeter of the museum: where those sight lines intersected was ground zero.

Now that you had it narrowed down to the right path you had to figure out if it's on the locomotive on one side or the dining car on the other. You were not allowed to climb on the trains so you couldn't go topside and get a clear set of coordinates. So eventually you decide that more often than not the bouncing coords indicate that it's on the north end of the locomotive.

Cool, now you have some confidence that it's on the front left quarter of this monster train engine, and you know from the cache page (and signs) that you are not allowed to climb or crawl on or under anything, and since you can't climb it must be down low, so you've really narrowed it down to the lower front left one-eighth area of the engine... so you have it nailed, right?

Do you have any idea how many places there are to hide something on a train locomotive, even if you've narrowed the area down to the lower front left corner? A lot!

This is the point where cachers would have to make several trips (it took me six, at over a hundred miles per round-trip) or they would have to have a hint from somebody.

The locomotive had a flat steel plate bolted to the front with 1" bolts. Wiggle the bolt heads and you may notice that one is just a bit loose. It's black and rusted and looks just like all the other bolts holding this plate on, but it's slightly loose and the others are not. That's the only give-away.

What he'd done, with the permission of the museum owner, was to remove one of these big bolts and take it to a machine shop. They cut the bolt's threaded rod in half and drilled out the center of the rod below the bolt head. Then they spot-welded the nut so that it was threaded half-way onto the other end of the bolt rod.

You stuck the cache log into the hollowed out core, inserted the bolt head through the hole in the steel plate, then had to reach up under the plate and screw on the other half of the bolt. From one side you saw the bolt head, from the other a nut and the end of the bolt. Perfectly normal... no different than the surrounding bolts, absolutely no way to visibly tell that the bolt was hollow, and it was exactly in its natural place where it had been for 75 years.

Yeah, anyone who logged that they found that evil bugger without a clue from someone was one heck of a cacher, lucky or darn persistent (I only found it because before my sixth trip the owner said "Wiggle everything you see"! without that clue I would never have found it.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, the cache owner was well-known and trusted in our geocaching community. He was a Deputy Sheriff who patrolled that area and could check and verify the cache if DNFs piled up. As long as he knew it was there he'd give very few clues, but at least you had the confidence to know that it was there and findable. This makes ALL the difference when you are looking for a very difficult cache... it's the difference between cachers having fun with a hard challenge rather than writing it off as a PITA that probably isn't even there.

Lastly, make it clear in the difficulty rating, cache description and maybe even the cache title that this one is supposed to be hard so that folks who don't like difficult hides will know to avoid it. once you've adequately done that then you can ignore the whiners who complain that it's too hard. Tell 'em yeah, it's supposed to be!

I hope that those ideas and suggestions help.

Make it as hard as you can or want, but be ready to go verify it and, since many like me hate DNFs and may not be able to return, help cachers out if they ask for clues.

March 4, 2010

TAR . I am laughing my tail off if he is reading all that on a cell phone. :blink: Very well written BTW.

19k · March 4, 2010

but has anyone used geo check ???????

That's for puzzle caches. Plenty have used it, and other coordinate verification systems. So, how are those punctuation pushups coming?

And you still have not said anything about my suggestion of following bookmarks. You won't find a better way to discover the BEST hard caches in the world than that. Pocket queries will only show you those that are rated as difficult.

March 4, 2010

No, im at school reading this and takeing a test lol

14k · March 5, 2010

I'm from Kentucky, we don't talk way around thes hear parts we live in the woods and in caves

well we do talk proper but i cant spell worth a dam. I'm just trying get some idea's to make a new cach.

i get enough writing papers in school

but has anyone used geo check ???????

Yes, I use it and have seen it on lots of other caches. I actually prefer geocheck to the other coordinate checkers I've seen. In particular, I like the fact that you can generate a custom response and use sub-coordinates.

I couldn't tell if you were considering using Geocheck as a means to means to develop a puzzle for your cache or just use it for coordinate verification.

March 5, 2010

this is a rather amusing thread to read

19k · March 5, 2010

this is a rather amusing thread to read

pls use caps n punct, k?

1.3k · March 5, 2010

this is a rather amusing thread to read
pls use caps n punct, k?

this is a rather, Amusing thread. to read?

Like that?

makeing the hardest

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