AkCacheAddickt Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The "no agenda" guideline for caches has been around for years. But last year, Groundspeak clarified to the volunteer cache reviewers that the "Support Our Troops" phrase constituted an agenda. (This is borne out by the sign I pass each week on the way to church: "Support Our Troops: End the War!") If a full investigation of a handful of caches were launched, perhaps we would discover that either (1) not every reviewer got the memo, or (2) a cache owner made changes to their listing after publication. Neither makes for a "double standard." So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? Link to comment
Keystone Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. Link to comment
4wheelin_fool Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 (edited) There is no rule against TBs and geocoins promoting an agenda. There is a rule against cache pages doing it. Is this not the pot calling the kettle black???? Good for the goose is good for the Gander???? All comes down to the all mighty dollar$$$$$$ Not really. They only allowed it on the TBs and coins, because people complained of them not being flexible on the cache pages. Edited October 19, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool Link to comment
+Chilln' Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? Link to comment
+Rockin Roddy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. Link to comment
Motorcycle_Mama Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? "We Support the Troops" is absolutely an agenda. You stated in right in your post. You stated "We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops." That's an agenda. It doesn't necessarily have to be a political agenda to be an agenda. It's an agenda whether or not people agree with it. It's promoting a particular viewpoint. And don't get me wrong, I support the troops. But it's still an agenda. And it's still not allowed. Link to comment
+Chilln' Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. Yes it is, and its traditionally American but a cache page is for a cache in a particular area. The question still is whats the agenda? Here some history of the yellow ribbon. Link to comment
+TrailGators Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 And don't get me wrong, I support the troops. But it's still an agenda. And it's still not allowed. I support the troops too. Anyhow, there are many worthy agendas that 99% of us would support, but the only agenda allowed is the geocaching agenda. Link to comment
+Rockin Roddy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. Yes it is, and its traditionally American but a cache page is for a cache in a particular area. The question still is whats the agenda? Here some history of the yellow ribbon. I'm sure there's not a single Iranian or other middle easterner anywhere in the USA that had differing views...but that's besides the point. Would you want a cache allowed that said DEATH TO AMERICANS? It's a global game. Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. One other thing which hasn't been pointed out... What one cache is, doesn't provide precedence for the next cache. So calling out a cache in this thread to be archived is quite inappropriate. Link to comment
+Rockin Roddy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. One other thing which hasn't been pointed out... What one cache is, doesn't provide precedence for the next cache. So calling out a cache in this thread to be archived is quite inappropriate. I kinda thought the demanding attitude toward Keystone was a bit inappropriate as well, but that's just MHO. Especially when you could simply post an SBA to the page or write the local reviewer. Don't expect to win any popularity contests when you become known as the cache police though... Link to comment
+Chilln' Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. Yes it is, and its traditionally American but a cache page is for a cache in a particular area. The question still is whats the agenda? Here some history of the yellow ribbon. I'm sure there's not a single Iranian or other middle easterner anywhere in the USA that had differing views...but that's besides the point. Would you want a cache allowed that said DEATH TO AMERICANS? It's a global game. How does a yellow ribbon = DEATH TO AMERICANS? A yellow ribbon is just a symbol of support it is nether for or against war or a political policy or ideology. I understand its a global game. Not sure what your trying to get at. If the rule said "nothing offensive to anyone" there would be no caches. The rules say no agendas. SO AGAIN whats the agenda? Its not an agenda. Link to comment
+Rockin Roddy Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 (edited) Again, I don't think the problem is with banning agendas from cache pages. The problem is that a yellow ribbon is NOT an agenda. I work for a city Fire Department. We participate in red shirt Fridays. Its a movement to show support for the troops. Our shirts say "we support our troops" and have a yellow ribbon on them. Its not PRO-War or Anti-War. Its just a message that we appreciate their sacrifice. The "troops" don't get a say in where or what they do. If I put a political button on my uniform I would be disciplined as we are not allowed to promote political agendas in uniform. So whats the agenda? The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. Yes it is, and its traditionally American but a cache page is for a cache in a particular area. The question still is whats the agenda? Here some history of the yellow ribbon. I'm sure there's not a single Iranian or other middle easterner anywhere in the USA that had differing views...but that's besides the point. Would you want a cache allowed that said DEATH TO AMERICANS? It's a global game. How does a yellow ribbon = DEATH TO AMERICANS? A yellow ribbon is just a symbol of support it is nether for or against war or a political policy or ideology. I understand its a global game. Not sure what your trying to get at. If the rule said "nothing offensive to anyone" there would be no caches. The rules say no agendas. SO AGAIN whats the agenda? Its not an agenda. ummm...the fact that our troops are killing their people (no matter how we see them, they're still someone's loved ones), and the fact that the yellow ribbons support the troops, I'd guess that might be how some would see it. Do you want TPTB allow us to support our troops, would you like it if someone named a cache support terrorist actions against Americans because we hate their troops (or DEATH TO AMERICAN'S for short since I thought the connection was obvious...guess not)? And guess what, if TPTB say it's an agenda, it's an agenda whether we agree or not! As was said, put the ribbons IN the cache if you desire. eta: guess I wasn't the only one to feel those political coins weren't a welcome sight in the forums?? Edited October 19, 2008 by Rockin Roddy Link to comment
Motorcycle_Mama Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 .... snip ... I understand its a global game. Not sure what your trying to get at. If the rule said "nothing offensive to anyone" there would be no caches. The rules say no agendas. SO AGAIN whats the agenda? Its not an agenda. From your link, here's what the agenda is. Main Entry: agen·da an underlying, often ideological, plan or program Supporting the troops is absolutely, 100%, positively an agenda. The same as NOT supporting the troops is an agenda. Why is that difficult to understand? Again, it's NOT about whether or not it's offensive to anyone. It's not about that at all. It's about promoting an issue. Any issue. And promoting an issue is not permitted. Simple. Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Supporting the troops is absolutely, 100%, positively an agenda. The same as NOT supporting the troops is an agenda. Why is that difficult to understand? Again, it's NOT about whether or not it's offensive to anyone. It's not about that at all. It's about promoting an issue. Any issue. And promoting an issue is not permitted. Simple. Bingo. Link to comment
+TrailGators Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 A yellow ribbon is just a symbol of support it is neither for or against war or a political policy or ideology. There is no guideline against putting yellow ribbons inside a cache. I have found caches honoring the fallen brave soldiers from the local community. Link to comment
+Parabola Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Really I saw those coins and thought that was kind of cute. I'm glad they had two version's one with each candidate. Or else then it really would have been an agenda. Who care's, it's a geo-coin if you don't like it don't buy it or don't pick it up from a cache. If you want to support your troops in your cache go ahead. Put some ribbon inside as suggested before or put some reading material on how one can help to support the troops. It's really not something to make a big deal out of in my eyes. Link to comment
+Super10commander Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Just so I'm clear its ok to honor and not ok to support? sound like semantics to me Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 As far as I can tell, it's not so much a matter of support vs honor. Both statements: "Support Our Troops" and "Honor Our Troops" could be perceived as agendas by the powers that be. They no longer allow cache pages that have agendas, so neither statement would be healthy on your cache page. TB's and coins have a lot more latitude in them. Swag is virtually unregulated. If you want to push an agenda, these are the avenues I would recommend. Link to comment
+Parabola Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) As far as I can tell, it's not so much a matter of support vs honor. Both statements: "Support Our Troops" and "Honor Our Troops" could be perceived as agendas by the powers that be. They no longer allow cache pages that have agendas, so neither statement would be healthy on your cache page. TB's and coins have a lot more latitude in them. Swag is virtually unregulated. If you want to push an agenda, these are the avenues I would recommend. Clan I have to agree with you on this one. If someone would like to help support our troops instead of leaving the links to the website they are wanting to show off they could use a TB and mark it to stay with in that cache and use that to spread the word they would like and post what they are trying to plug on the TB page. This would work for no only those trying to support the troops but other noble causes as well and it's ok to do in the guidleines. I'm using the "support our troops" as a generic example but this can work for other causes that a cacher would like to make known to others. See there are ways around everything. edited cause my spelling sucks Edited October 20, 2008 by Parabola Link to comment
+TrailGators Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) As far as I can tell, it's not so much a matter of support vs honor. Both statements: "Support Our Troops" and "Honor Our Troops" could be perceived as agendas by the powers that be. They no longer allow cache pages that have agendas, so neither statement would be healthy on your cache page. TB's and coins have a lot more latitude in them. Swag is virtually unregulated. If you want to push an agenda, these are the avenues I would recommend. I think people might be getting wrong idea. The cache I was talking about never said "Honor Our Troops." It was called Patriots Ever Mighty and it was placed to remember a student at a local HS (Orange Glen Patriots) who lost his life in the first Gulf War. It isn't promoting any agenda and the reviewer agreed with that. Edited October 20, 2008 by TrailGators Link to comment
AkCacheAddickt Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. One other thing which hasn't been pointed out... What one cache is, doesn't provide precedence for the next cache. So calling out a cache in this thread to be archived is quite inappropriate. I kinda thought the demanding attitude toward Keystone was a bit inappropriate as well, but that's just MHO. Especially when you could simply post an SBA to the page or write the local reviewer. Don't expect to win any popularity contests when you become known as the cache police though... Believe me, I'm not in this to win any popularity contests. I could care less what people here think of me. I'm just trying to understand why the double standard. THere are 16 caches out there that support the same agenda that someone else was told they couldn't have on their page. At least 14 of them have previously had SBA posts put on them. THose were summarily deleted. But the caches remained without modification. What gives? Link to comment
+Parabola Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. One other thing which hasn't been pointed out... What one cache is, doesn't provide precedence for the next cache. So calling out a cache in this thread to be archived is quite inappropriate. I kinda thought the demanding attitude toward Keystone was a bit inappropriate as well, but that's just MHO. Especially when you could simply post an SBA to the page or write the local reviewer. Don't expect to win any popularity contests when you become known as the cache police though... Believe me, I'm not in this to win any popularity contests. I could care less what people here think of me. I'm just trying to understand why the double standard. THere are 16 caches out there that support the same agenda that someone else was told they couldn't have on their page. At least 14 of them have previously had SBA posts put on them. THose were summarily deleted. But the caches remained without modification. What gives? I think that would be a question for the cache owner and or the person that reviewed them. Each reviewer does interrupt the guidelines a little differently but for the most part they all do have the same general concept's. If the SBA logs disappeared it's probably cause the cache owner deleted them due to they don't agree with those logs. Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) So, why not archive them now that you know they are violating the guidelines? 1. Because none of the caches are in the review territory for which I'm responsible. 2. Because I have better things to do than to seek out non-conforming caches outside my review territory. If you're troubled by this handful of caches, you're welcome to contact their owners. One other thing which hasn't been pointed out... What one cache is, doesn't provide precedence for the next cache. So calling out a cache in this thread to be archived is quite inappropriate. I kinda thought the demanding attitude toward Keystone was a bit inappropriate as well, but that's just MHO. Especially when you could simply post an SBA to the page or write the local reviewer. Don't expect to win any popularity contests when you become known as the cache police though... Believe me, I'm not in this to win any popularity contests. I could care less what people here think of me. I'm just trying to understand why the double standard. THere are 16 caches out there that support the same agenda that someone else was told they couldn't have on their page. At least 14 of them have previously had SBA posts put on them. THose were summarily deleted. But the caches remained without modification. What gives? I think that would be a question for the cache owner and or the person that reviewed them. Each reviewer does interrupt the guidelines a little differently but for the most part they all do have the same general concept's. If the SBA logs disappeared it's probably cause the cache owner deleted them due to they don't agree with those logs. I love the Freudian slip. Edited October 20, 2008 by TotemLake Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) As far as I can tell, it's not so much a matter of support vs honor. Both statements: "Support Our Troops" and "Honor Our Troops" could be perceived as agendas by the powers that be. They no longer allow cache pages that have agendas, so neither statement would be healthy on your cache page. TB's and coins have a lot more latitude in them. Swag is virtually unregulated. If you want to push an agenda, these are the avenues I would recommend. Clan I have to agree with you on this one. If someone would like to help support our troops instead of leaving the links to the website they are wanting to show off they could use a TB and mark it to stay with in that cache and use that to spread the word they would like and post what they are trying to plug on the TB page. This would work for no only those trying to support the troops but other noble causes as well and it's ok to do in the guidleines. I'm using the "support our troops" as a generic example but this can work for other causes that a cacher would like to make known to others. See there are ways around everything. Of course there are ways around everything in life. JI makes the point that TPTB can't control the contents of the cache. This is fine. No problem with that. Even though I have removed several religious tracts from my own caches in the past, but that's my own choice. But Groundspeak profits from every single geocoin or TB, that can have any agenda they want. Obviously offensive and controversial things like the illegal alien geocoin aside. I don't get it, sorry. Edited October 20, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel Link to comment
+OReviewer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 A smart person once told me, for every person who wants an agenda on their cache, there are 10 people who go geocaching to get away from dealing with that agenda. Link to comment
+sweetlife Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 As the OP I would like this thread closed, wasn't trying to make this a witch hunt for other caches with ribbons on them or political agendas on them was merely posting a Black and White difference in opinion, We were not trying to cause trouble, and wouldnt want any caches archived because of this, We have changed our cache pages and will resubmit them with no political agendas on them. PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD Barry of sweetlife Link to comment
+benh57 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Believe me, I'm not in this to win any popularity contests. I could care less what people here think of me. I'm just trying to understand why the double standard. THere are 16 caches out there that support the same agenda that someone else was told they couldn't have on their page. At least 14 of them have previously had SBA posts put on them. THose were summarily deleted. But the caches remained without modification. What gives? So why are you posting on a sockpuppet then? PS: Why does my post say ringbone? Link to comment
+ThePachecos Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Its a game folks and I like to add patches and such things to my caches but its like people are saying.. a cache needs to be kept light and warm and let your swag do your talking. Link to comment
+CRider Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 The troops are apolitical. They do what they are told to do and they live or die regardless of who they voted for. Supporting them is not a political agenda. Right on buddy. I once was one of them and am damm proud of it. Link to comment
+CRider Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 How could this be approved This is an agenda cache. Supporting the troop IS NOT. Link to comment
+CRider Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 The problem is, not all support our troops. This game is open to all in the world, it's a global game. NOT supporting the troops. Now that IS an agenda and it's anti-American!!! Yes I know all cachers are not Americans. Link to comment
+CRider Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I'm sure there's not a single Iranian or other middle easterner anywhere in the USA that had differing views...but that's besides the point. Would you want a cache allowed that said DEATH TO AMERICANS? It's a global game. Supporting the troops has nothing to do w/KILLING Iranian's or other middle easterners. I'm sure there are a few thousand who are in the U. S. armed forces............... Link to comment
+CRider Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I kinda thought the demanding attitude toward Keystone was a bit inappropriate as well, but that's just MHO. Especially when you could simply post an SBA to the page or write the local reviewer. Don't expect to win any popularity contests when you become known as the cache police though... Believe me, I'm not in this to win any popularity contests. I could care less what people here think of me. I'm just trying to understand why the double standard. THere are 16 caches out there that support the same agenda that someone else was told they couldn't have on their page. At least 14 of them have previously had SBA posts put on them. THose were summarily deleted. But the caches remained without modification. What gives? Cache Addickt???? This person just became a cacher on Oct 16th and is deep in this discussion. Said cacher has found NO caches to date. Me thinks he/she has an AGENDA..... Link to comment
+Rockin Roddy Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I'm sure there's not a single Iranian or other middle easterner anywhere in the USA that had differing views...but that's besides the point. Would you want a cache allowed that said DEATH TO AMERICANS? It's a global game. Supporting the troops has nothing to do w/KILLING Iranian's or other middle easterners. I'm sure there are a few thousand who are in the U. S. armed forces............... Did you read ANYTHING I wrote?? Try seeing it from someone's eyes who DOESN'T support our troops...ok? I hope I made this as simple as I could! The fact that our troops ARE killing people others might call loved ones means some will think supporting our troops amounts to supporting killing whoever the loved ones are. Therefore, some might see supporting our troops as supporting killing...ok? An agenda, no doubt. SHEESH! Link to comment
Keystone Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD Obliging the OP's request. In honor of this thread, I think I'll wear striped socks today. Link to comment
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