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Religious material in caches


Geognome57
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Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.
I find it interesting that I don't have a right to convince you, but you are allowed to shout me down or take actions to silence me.

It is interesting. But as you said in the post above, you don't have the right to make me listen. There's nothing in the constitution that protects you from having me leave (close my door, shout louder, etc) as you're talking to me.

 

What's also interesting, and many people don't often realize this, is that the constitution doesn't provide you with ANY rights - for anything! It's true. It says that you have these rights already, simply from being a human, and the constitution exists only to protect those rights for you and keep the government from taking them away.

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Well what else is there regarding the question at hand. If I don't have a right to attempt to convince others of my point of view, what is their recourse?

Try doing it at work. You will likely be shut down pretty quickly. Maintain your right to attempt to convince others of your point of view and you'll likely be fired.

 

That really is not the point. I clearly don't have the right to trespass in an effort to convince someone for example. I can't climb the fence at the White House to convince the President of something. My work place is private property and my boss can fire me any time he wants for most any reason. This has nothing to do with my right to talk on a street corner for example.

 

Are private citizens allowed to prevent me from speaking? If a private citizen could limit my speech in a public arena it would have to be government sanctioned through some sort of law.

This is a Groundspeak-owned forum... so far they have allowed this incredibly off-topic thread, but they don't have to. Attempt to convince others of your point of view here and they can choose to close the thread... open another for that purpose and they can ban your account.

Yes this is owned by Groundspeak. That makes it useless as an answer to my question.

 

Stand up in a Baptist church and begin to explain why Catholics have it right... the private citizens there will shut you down pretty quickly!

They can try to shout me down and I can try to shout them down. If it is private property they can have me removed.

As at work, church, home or in these forums you in fact do not have a right to free speech!

I don't have a right to free speech in my home? You have not listed the entire world so am I to assume that you think there are places I do have the right to speak? If I have the right to free speech anywhere then I have the right. Free speech does have limitations, and you have listed a few of them. That does not mean the right does not exist.
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It is not illegal to place Chick Tracts in a cache container. It is not illegal to stuff a cache container full of Chick Tracts. It's not illegal to hide in a tree beside the cache container and jump out yelling "BOOGIE BOOGIE BOOGIE" as geocachers come looking for the cache then stuff a Chick Tract into their backpocket as they run screaming away.

 

It's also not illegal for someone to trash every single Chick Tract they see. They can even rip it into tiny pieces and eat the lower lefthand corner of the last page if they want to. That's not illegal.

 

If it's not illegal for muggles to completely destroy a cache for the sake of destroying it, how could it possibly be illegal for someone who's actually Geocaching and has accepted the Terms & Conditions of the site to Trade stash as they feel is most appropriate?

 

Is U.S. law really the issue? The issue is Groundspeak Policy for Geocaches listed on Geocaching.com.

 

- Elle

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Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.
I find it interesting that I don't have a right to convince you, but you are allowed to shout me down or take actions to silence me.

It is interesting. But as you said in the post above, you don't have the right to make me listen. There's nothing in the constitution that protects you from having me leave (close my door, shout louder, etc) as you're talking to me.

 

What's also interesting, and many people don't often realize this, is that the constitution doesn't provide you with ANY rights - for anything! It's true. It says that you have these rights already, simply from being a human, and the constitution exists only to protect those rights for you and keep the government from taking them away.

But if you remember, you said nothing gives me the right to try to convince you. I still think I have the right to try all I want. There are limitations to my right to speak, as well as limitations to what you can do to prevent me from speaking.

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I disagree that it is political and not religious in nature. From my perspective is seems a way to single out

Christianity as the "only" (your words) religion to persecute people.

 

It's obviously nonsense to single out Christianity as the only religion to persecute people. Though there is arguably a correlation between intolerance and monotheism of any sort.

 

But this is way OT. Religious propaganda of any sort, tolerant or otherwise, is out of place in geocaching.

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Would you allow any propaganda, flier, tract, advertising or political info of any kind at all in a cache? Nothing about CITO, global warming, tread lightly, save the dolphins, stop war, vote for whomever, nothing?

 

No. Sectarian, religious or political propaganda of any sort is inappropriate.

 

CITO is none of these things: it's an integral part of geocaching.

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I think there is something about that in the constitution.

 

Presumably you refer to the constitution of the United States? Inconveniently, that particular document only covers a small fraction of the planet's surface and population. In any case, rights are only enforced by government statute, not created by it.

 

Geocaching is a public, secular activity. Religious conviction is a private matter, as is any other sectarian or political opinion. It's best to keep it to yourself.

Edited by agentmancuso
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Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.
I find it interesting that I don't have a right to convince you, but you are allowed to shout me down or take actions to silence me.

It is interesting. But as you said in the post above, you don't have the right to make me listen. There's nothing in the constitution that protects you from having me leave (close my door, shout louder, etc) as you're talking to me.

 

What's also interesting, and many people don't often realize this, is that the constitution doesn't provide you with ANY rights - for anything! It's true. It says that you have these rights already, simply from being a human, and the constitution exists only to protect those rights for you and keep the government from taking them away.

But if you remember, you said nothing gives me the right to try to convince you. I still think I have the right to try all I want. There are limitations to my right to speak, as well as limitations to what you can do to prevent me from speaking.

You have the ability to try, and you have the freedom to try, but you have no natural rights, as a human or as an American citizen, to try. I'm using the word "rights" as used in the Bill of Rights, because you brought up the Constitution. If I don't want to let you talk to me, I don't have to, and I'm not violating your rights in doing so.

Edited by Mushtang
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I think there is something about that in the constitution.

 

Presumably you refer to the constitution of the United States? Inconveniently, that particular document only covers a small fraction of the planet's surface and population. In any case, rights are only enforced by government statute, not created by it.

 

Geocaching is a public, secular activity. Religious conviction is a private matter, as is any other sectarian or political opinion. It's best to keep it to yourself.

 

Groundspeak is also a US company which obligates them to US law, which is probably why Groundspeak policies do not, at any time, violate the rights of US Citizens and requires agreement of the Terms and Conditions before participating.

 

- Elle

Edited by HauntHunters
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...If it's not illegal for muggles to completely destroy a cache for the sake of destroying it...

Is U.S. law really the issue?...

 

It is illegal to destroy anothers personal property. A cache is personal property. While those in charge of enforcing the law may do zero about it because there are other laws with much higher priority it doesn't change that it's against the law. With time, money, and a good lawer you can force justice on some poor cache destroying perp.

 

However you are right to point out the law isn't the issue. This is an ethical debate where both sides are breaking a fundamental rule of philosopy. They have no common ground they are building from.

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...Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.

 

Rights in the USA are mostly bandied about without thought. Most rights that people claim to have don't exist.

 

A Right in the USA creates an OBLIGATION, normally on the government but sometimes on it's citizens. The obligation takes away from freedom. The only rights that should be recogized are where the loss of freedom is well worth the price.

 

The right to a trial by jury has created the Obligation that citizens will serve on jury's.

The right to free speech creates an obligation that the Government will not repress it and factor that into it's decisions and polices. It's not an indivdual thing. You correctly point out that there is no obligation for you to listen. However try as you like there is no mechanism for you to enforce silence either. This is nothing more than a conflict between freedoms.

 

Side Rant: The Home Owners Associations are often used to create the "right" to a high home value. The enforcement of this impinges on the freedom of all members and creates the obligation to do, or not do things.

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...All in all, I am fine with Christians in general as long as they leave me alone...

I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

1) You forgot to leave christians alone, but that's ok, they aren't going to leave you alone either. That's life, that's the world.

2) When it comes to tracts, I don't care. When I read them, I tend not to agree with them. I'm often wondering "why this angle and not another one?"

3) There is always one right path, and no other for us all. My path may not be the same as yours. It changes nothing that we all only have one right path. You can define right any way you want and the logic still works. Samsons path meant not getting a hair cut. I don't know why. That was his path.

4) Christians, Wiccan's, Muslims, all human, all corruptable by power. An organization in power will in time see folks corrupted by power run amuk. You may like to think that if Wicca had the power that the Catholic Church did, it would be different. It wouldn't. You should be fighting corruption at all levels in all organizations. Even caching.

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Rules or no rules, it's at the very least an infringement of good manners to misuse geocaching for sectarian propaganda.
If I were able to get more manners out of geocachers it would be better spent on having them hide containers back properly, close containers tightly and write more then four characters for a log entry before I'd worry about a sheet of paper that can occasionally come in handy.

 

I disagree that it is political and not religious in nature. From my perspective is seems a way to single out Christianity as the "only" (your words) religion to persecute people.
Every living thing from single celled creatures to plants to man tries to conquer it's neighbor and expand it's territory to become the dominant species. The nature of life. Just because man can put religious or political justifications on it doesn't make it any less natural.

 

Well, I literally smack their noses. I'm telling ya, Jehovah's Witnesses don't come knocking at the door on Saturday mornings after a good newspaper spanking. "No! Bad! No!"
Dang Elle, I need to mark my calendar for an upcoming Saturday and dig out my Jehovah costume… I haven't had a good nose smacking in a while! :yikes:

 

What's also interesting, and many people don't often realize this, is that the constitution doesn't provide you with ANY rights - for anything! It's true. It says that you have these rights already, simply from being a human, and the constitution exists only to protect those rights for you and keep the government from taking them away.
The right to freedom of speech is recognised as human right in under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognised in international human rights law under Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The ICCPR recognises the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference". That pretty much sums it up.

 

If someone has bias against religion or a particular religion then they are going to be biased when seeing even a simple pamphlet for that religion. Same would be true for politics where if someone of one party sees a pamphlet for their party in a cache they smile, one from the other party they grumble, grit their teeth, rip it into a million shreds and (hopefully) throw it in the nearest trash receptacle. We all have our own bias but it's our tolerance that allows us to walk past someone else, who's bias we disagree with, and allow them to have their bias without criticizing, condemning, belittling, judging or smacking their noses (the latter is allowed if done for the shear fun of it).

 

Our opinion doesn't make us better people, our tolerance does.

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You correctly point out that there is no obligation for you to listen. However try as you like there is no mechanism for you to enforce silence either.

I can't enforce silence, but that wouldn't be the point either. I can avoid having someone try to convince me of their opinion by any number of ways (closing my door, shouting louder than they're talking, walking away, etc.) and their rights are not being infringed. And I can do this without enforcing their silence.

 

Remember, the original statement that I replied to here was someone suggesting they had a right to convince me of their opinion during a discussion about the Constitution and the rights that it protects.

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You have the ability to try, and you have the freedom to try, but you have no natural rights, as a human or as an American citizen, to try. I'm using the work "rights" as used in the Bill of Rights, because you brought up the Constitution. If I don't want to let you talk to me, I don't have to, and I'm not violating your rights in doing so.

 

:yikes:

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You have the ability to try, and you have the freedom to try, but you have no natural rights, as a human or as an American citizen, to try. I'm using the work "rights" as used in the Bill of Rights, because you brought up the Constitution. If I don't want to let you talk to me, I don't have to, and I'm not violating your rights in doing so.
:yikes:

Thanks for the heads up. I went and edited it. One of my pet peeves is spelling errors like that and I'm always happy to fix any typos that I have.

 

(unless they're made on purpose for effect)

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Just curious, but in regards to cache etiquette, what's the accepted thought on religious material

being placed in caches? I ask because I'm rather new at this and really do not know. So far my wife

and I have encountered at least three caches with religious tracts stuck in them (one was almost stuffed with them. I'm not a follower of any religion, and I grant that each has a right to his or her own beliefs, but is really an accepted practice in geocaching?

As you may have gathered in the first few posts, you can put anything inside the cache that is family friendly, not food, etc. Refer to the guidelines for a list of "do not's".

 

As far as the rest of the conversation related to free speech and such, that part can be revisited in off topic.

 

This discussion is closed.

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