"Reserved" First to Find

[+sbell111]

I disagree. Since it's impossible to make everyone happy, you might as well make sure that at least you and the honoree are happy.

Exactly.

The local cachers have been weighing into this thread. Apparently the way it was done in the example cache makes most of them happy.

And that's an excellent attitude to take. But if the goal is to make absolutely sure the honoree finds the cache first, and if someone else finding it first is going to tick you off, then private is the best solution.

If the goal was to make absolutely sure the honoree was the FTF, then they would have listed it as an ALR, rather than politely asking people to hold off.

That wouldn't prevent true jerks who simply want to spoil it nor people who overlook the ALR because they don't read cache pages. You can delete those logs, but the book is signed and the original loot tainted.

Nothing will ever stop jerks from being jerks.

 

Most accidental logs would probably be avoided since ALRs are listed as mystery caches, rather than trads.

Edited June 4, 2008 by sbell111

[Dinoprophet]

I disagree. Since it's impossible to make everyone happy, you might as well make sure that at least you and the honoree are happy.

Exactly.

The local cachers have been weighing into this thread. Apparently the way it was done in the example cache makes most of them happy.

And that's an excellent attitude to take. But if the goal is to make absolutely sure the honoree finds the cache first, and if someone else finding it first is going to tick you off, then private is the best solution.

If the goal was to make absolutely sure the honoree was the FTF, then they would have listed it as an ALR, rather than politely asking people to hold off.

That wouldn't prevent true jerks who simply want to spoil it nor people who overlook the ALR because they don't read cache pages. You can delete those logs, but the book is signed and the original loot tainted.

Nothing will ever stop jerks from being jerks.

But they can't be a jerk if they don't know about it.

Most accidental logs would probably be avoided since ALRs are listed as mystery caches, rather than trads.

I see. Yes, that's true.

[+flask]

all this fuss and nearly nobody wants to talk about the inherent stupidity of false honors.

 

don't honor my mountain bike career by awarding me a trophy for a race only i'm allowed to enter. sure, have a race in my name, but don't guarantee me first place.

 

ewwww. it's like you'd have to do for little kids.

 

 

i'd be embarrassed to claim a FF that everyone let me have. it'd cheapen my record.

 

 

let's think of some parallels:

 

honor scholarship by entering the dean emeritus of the english department in a second-grade spelling bee.

change the van cliburn prize so that only van cliburn can win.

hold a triathlon, but disqualify all of the entrants beside the person whose athletic prowess you wish to honor.

 

let's band together with one accord and say to someone whose achievements we wish to honor: "congratulations on your fine competitive edge and your outstanding ability. to recognize this, we're going to make you the automatic winner of this here contest. we're giving you a free meaningless trophy to hang on the wall alongside your real ones. you must be very proud."

 

the sad thing is that i can think of so many meaningful ways to honor a person's contribution to caching other than giving them a cheap shot at a meaningless FTF.

 

if you want to make a stupid empty gesture to "honor" someone, not only will i not attempt to take away their pacifier, but i will put the cache on my ignore list.

 

call me when you take off the training wheels.

[Dinoprophet]

You apparently have the view that the only pleasure of an FTF is having beaten everyone else. For many, it's not at all about competition.

[+flask]

You apparently have the view that the only pleasure of an FTF is having beaten everyone else. For many, it's not at all about competition.

 

if it's not about getting there first, what's it about?

[Clan Riffster]

But if the goal is to make absolutely sure the honoree finds the cache first, then private is the best solution.

In that particular case, there was no such goal. It was naught but a humble request, politely made.

I agree with your synopsis though. If such a goal was somehow necessary, the best path to success would be to provide the coords privately, pre-publication.

[+ventura_kids]

Around here, we go with the person to help them celebrate the occasion.

[Dinoprophet]

You apparently have the view that the only pleasure of an FTF is having beaten everyone else. For many, it's not at all about competition.

 

if it's not about getting there first, what's it about?

It is about getting there first, but it's not about beating everyone else. It's a very fine distinction.

 

The best comparison I can think of -- and it's admittedly cheesy, you might even say it's as childish as training wheels -- is the first dip in a fresh jar of peanut butter. Whether you beat me to the pantry or I just say, "Here you go, have the first one", it's still enjoyable.

 

More mature? Okay. I posted this elsewhere recently. Do you think Neil Armstrong's first thought was "Yeah! Kicked Russia's butt!" or was it awe at being where no human had been before?

 

Is Charles Lindburgh uninteresting because he didn't race anyone?

 

If NASA randomly selected you to be the first person on Mars, would you decline because you hadn't had to beat anyone so it would suck?

 

Anyway, more tangibly, you get a fresh, untattered log book; nice swag; undampened contents; everything packed neatly in their bags; the container placed exactly right.

[+flask]

Around here, we go with the person to help them celebrate the occasion.

 

that's different. that's having a party.

[Clan Riffster]

if it's not about getting there first, what's it about?

For some, such as myself, getting there first is not a competition, with a lofty prize to be awarded. Realistically, how could it be? A race, as I understand the term, is a competitive event between folks with similar odds of winning. If you & I were to compete in a foot race, and you had to go 5k, while I only had to go 100 yards, with both of us leaving the starting line at the same time, would that be a competition? I view newly published caches in a similar vein. As a seeker, I have little or no control over the geographic location of newly released caches, nor do I have much influence in the timing of their release. Assuming we are both seated at our computers, and are free to leave when we want, I am much more likely to nab a FTF on a cache hidden 100' from my front door than someone who lives 20 miles from me. As there can never be a truly level playing field, (not that I'd wish that on anyone), I cannot, in good faith, consider a FTF quest to be a legitimate competition. As players, we can take steps to increase our odds of nabbing an occasional FTF, but it still doesn't qualify as a competition in my book. The FTF's I have were the result of luck, or fate, if you prefer, not my winning a race. For me, a FTF is more of an accolade than a trophy. Your mileage may vary.

[+stipman]

For me.. when I asked the initial question.. it wasn't so much about being the FTF. I'm a junkie... while I have nowhere near the number of caches the honoree has... (hell I don't even think I have as many caches as they have hidden!) I wanted to be able to go grab one of the caches as it was close by... didn;t care if I was FTF or not (of course it would be cool if I was) but man, my schedule at the time was such that I could grab one and satisfy the urge. Knowing the people involved and how hungry they are to find caches I thought it a strange request (and it was polite and all involved meant no harm).

[+Team Black-Cat]

Do you think Neil Armstrong's first thought was "Yeah! Kicked Russia's butt!"

 

I imagine that he though "Woo Hoo! I beat EVERYBODY!"

 

I cannot, in good faith, consider a FTF quest to be a legitimate competition.

 

It's not. I'm glad it's not, or all the sudden there would be "rules".

For me it's just fun.

[+flask]

well, then. if it isn't a competition, it won't matter who gets there first.

 

 

as for the race, it is very unusual that all the entrants have similar odds of winning. i personally hold the all-time record for most consecutive last place finishes in a locally well known race series.

 

the first-find competition is an unusual one, in which the start time is not posted and the start line is variable. people still try to get there first and some dingdongs even advertise the number of times they've won this particular race.

 

i have flown off of this start line at 4:30 in the morning to drive a couple hours and run to the cache to get there third. it's more the race that matters to me rather than the finish, but i have legitimately earned all of my FTFs. none of them were handed to me by well-meaning people who on one hand say getting there first matters enough to be reserved for a person and on the other say it's an honor, not a competition.

 

you can't have it both ways. the only reason an FTF is desirable or a distinction at all is because you get there ahead of everyone.

 

much better to give the person a small gift or to name the cache for them, or to have a little party than to hand them a hollow, false achievement.

 

tonight i'll get on my bike. i won't win and in truth i can't even enter in a category that suits a former two-time state champion. i will finish very near the end of the pack and i won't care, but i will have ridden as if death himself is at my heels.

 

if someone arbitrarily declared me to be the winner of a special category reserved just for me, 'cause i'm such a brave person, i'd slink away in shame.

[+sbell111]

all this fuss and nearly nobody wants to talk about the inherent stupidity of false honors.

 

don't honor my mountain bike career by awarding me a trophy for a race only i'm allowed to enter. sure, have a race in my name, but don't guarantee me first place.

 

ewwww. it's like you'd have to do for little kids.

 

i'd be embarrassed to claim a FF that everyone let me have. it'd cheapen my record. ...

Your post went in a totally different direction than I expected. I thought you were going to comment on the silliness of celebrating some arbitrary number of finds or the fact that the 'honor' of being FTF is a completely made up thing that many people could care less about. Instead, you affirmed the 'honor' of being FTF.

 

I think that it's important to remember that not all cachers play the FTF game. Since it is a totally unofficial and largely imaginary honor, I see no problem with cache owners politely requesting to allow a specific 'honoree' to be the first person to find it. The cache owner may want the individual to be the first person to experience the cache. Perhaps he even put a special present in there for the person being honored.

[+sbell111]

well, then. if it isn't a competition, it won't matter who gets there first. ...

That's absolutely correct, on most caches. It might make a difference for a cache placed to honor a specific person, however, as I tried to explain in the post just above.

... i have flown off of this start line at 4:30 in the morning to drive a couple hours and run to the cache to get there third. it's more the race that matters to me rather than the finish, but i have legitimately earned all of my FTFs. none of them were handed to me by well-meaning people who on one hand say getting there first matters enough to be reserved for a person and on the other say it's an honor, not a competition.

 

you can't have it both ways. the only reason an FTF is desirable or a distinction at all is because you get there ahead of everyone.

That's the only reason that it's desirable to you. This is not necessarily true for everyone.

much better to give the person a small gift or to name the cache for them, or to have a little party than to hand them a hollow, false achievement.

What if the present is in the cache? Again, the 'honor' is not that the honoree gets to claim one more FTF.

if someone arbitrarily declared me to be the winner of a special category reserved just for me, 'cause i'm such a brave person, i'd slink away in shame.

What if your friends brought you a present to note how many races you've been in? Would that also be humiliating? Edited June 4, 2008 by sbell111

[Clan Riffster]

well, then. if it isn't a competition, it won't matter who gets there first.

It apparently would matter to the cache owner, or they wouldn't have made a polite request on their cache page to wait until so & so found the cache. It's possible it mattered to the honoree. I haven't checked their logs to see their reaction.

[Dinoprophet]

In one mindset, "beating everyone" is the goal, and "being first" is the result. That's the competitive mindset. In another mindset, "being first" is the goal and "beating everyone" is a side effect of achieving that goal.

 

I don't try for FTFs (though I used to when convenient, and I did get a couple). If I ever get one, it will most likely be on accident, and possibly even a surprise. I'll get a kick out of it I'm sure, but it won't matter a bit that I beat everyone.

 

well, then. if it isn't a competition, it won't matter who gets there first.

Eating a wedding cake isn't a competition, but it certainly matters who goes first.

[+The Jester]

well, then. if it isn't a competition, it won't matter who gets there first.

So, then why do you need to be first? You just said it didn't matter, so why not let the honoree be first?

 

It's been said many times that you (in general, not any individual here) don't have to find every cache. Likewise, not every cache has to have a FTF race. Sometimes FTF honors are up for grabs in a race, sometimes they are bestowed upon someone special - it's up to the cache owner, not you, the cache finder, to decide.

[+flask]

as i said before, i don't need to go first. i wouldn't even go.

 

i think it's a goofy practice.

 

as for a gift in the cache, we leave special gifts for people all the time. people who get there first leave them for the intended recipient.

 

if you're trying to tell me that being first matters, fine. if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. you can't have it both ways.

 

if anyone wanted to honor me with a gift for my race season, i'd be much obliged if the gift wasn't a cheap predetermined win.

 

you are entirely welcome to engage in this stupid practice and you can be certain i won't go find the cache before your patsy, but i will heap scorn on the whole concept while i put the cache on my ignore list.

 

if being first matters, don't cheapen it. if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

 

the two "mindsets" are in fact one and the same. whether you wish to be first or whether you wish to beat the other people they are the same thing and if you think otherwise, you're lying. one is not the side effect of the other; each IS the other.

 

when i see the cache record of people who make public note of their FTF list, i snort with derision. if i were to run into one of these "honorees" who counts a cheap "gift" FTF as a real FTF, i'd laugh right out loud. they're right up there with people who cheat when playing against children, or who race two divisions below their ability (we call it sandbagging) in order to get prizes.

 

happily, since i actively seek to avoid this sort of person, i'm not placed in that position too often.

 

but when stupid practices make inroads in my home territory and some addlepated person thinks "my, isn't that a spiffy idea?" i feel honor bound to declare "no, it's not. this is the geocaching equivalent of kudzu and not to be considered by the thinking person."

[Dinoprophet]

I agree that there are other, possibly better ways to reward a cacher.

 

Flask, I don't know what kind of biking you do, but if the community created a new bike course (if it applies) and said that because of your past accomplishments in the sport you could be the first to ride it, would that be childish?

 

By the way, no, I'm not lying. I honestly feel it is two different things. It's not to say that most FTF hounds aren't competing, just that there are reasons to be first other than beating everyone else.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[+flask]

 

Flask, I don't know what kind of biking you do, but if the community created a new bike course (if it applies) and said that because of your past accomplishments in the sport you could be the first to ride it, would that be childish?

 

 

no, but that isn't a good parallel. it's more like if they let me win the first race on it.

 

it would be a good analogy if people rushed out to be the first to ride a new course, which they don't. i don't want any win i didn't EARN. if they want to honor you at a race venue, they give out a trophy in your name. they don't declare you the winner of a race.

 

i simply wish to cast a shadow on a dubious and disingenuous practice. if you (generic "you") want to engage in it, that's fine. just know that i'm making fun of you. i am laughing AT you and not with you and i wish you to know it. i wouldn't want to do it behind your back, but since i wouldn't be seen with you, i have to make my derision somewhat more public if i am to make you aware of it.

 

and i do wish to make you aware of it.

[Dinoprophet]

But it's exactly what people are doing when they do this. Your analogy has the race aspect built in, but what people are saying with these caches is, "This one's not for racing. Please don't race to it".

 

Well, hopefully my previous example at least illustrated that being first at something can be enjoyable without a competition being involved.

[+flask]

But it's exactly what people are doing when they do this. Your analogy has the race aspect built in, but what people are saying with these caches is, "This one's not for racing. Please don't race to it".

 

Well, hopefully my previous example at least illustrated that being first at something can be enjoyable without a competition being involved.

 

no, it isn't what they're doing. they are reserving first find as a special thing and giving it on the cheap to some patsy who doesn't know enough to be embarrassed.

 

i love to place series of caches out that punish first find obsessives. this summer i hope to place a series of a couple dozen caches on a large trail network. each cache will only be published after the previous one is found first. trail use fee: $6 a head.

 

they're not for racing. come and spend the whole day or a couple of days to find them all. come to FTF them and it'll be pricey.

 

non-competitive geocaching got taken out from under me by people who insisted on competing with me whether i wanted to play or not. so i quit looking for FTFs. i quit logging in a timely fashion or accurately. i no longer go to events. i got sick of having people measure their caching up to mine.

 

if i wanted to compete, i said, i'd race a bicycle or something.

 

if finding a cache first isn't competitive, why do so many people engage in the tawdry practice of publicly bookmarking their FTFs? and why do so many cache pages post the FTF?

 

reserving FTF for a specific player is akin to the odious trend int he performing arts today in which these days crowds fall allover themselves to give standing ovations to performers who do little beside get through the evening competently. it used to mean something. FTF used to mean something.

 

too often and in too many places our lives are being stripped of meaning and replaced by a sense of entitlement.

 

i can't stop this practice anymore than i can stem the unfortunate tide of cute email chain letters, but i can make it clear that those who engage in these backward practices fall beneath contempt.

 

if just ONE person comes to their senses and restores integrity to a first find, i will have done my job.

[+El Diablo]

But it's exactly what people are doing when they do this. Your analogy has the race aspect built in, but what people are saying with these caches is, "This one's not for racing. Please don't race to it".

 

Well, hopefully my previous example at least illustrated that being first at something can be enjoyable without a competition being involved.

 

no, it isn't what they're doing. they are reserving first find as a special thing and giving it on the cheap to some patsy who doesn't know enough to be embarrassed.

 

 

if just ONE person comes to their senses and restores integrity to a first find, i will have done my job.

 

I don't know why anyone would be embarrassed that someone hid a cache in their honor. I also don't understand why being the FTF enchances the experience of caching as a whole. I never ceased to be amazed when I read someone proudly proclaiming the FTF on a LPC, or a P&G.

 

Now if they were the first to solve a hard puzzle cache, or did a 5/5 cache I could understand the pride.

 

I think you and a lot of others are missing the point. This cache wasn't about reserving a FTF per se for a cacher. It was about honoring that person for past accomplishments. They weren't trying to hand that cacher a freebie. I would doubt that more than 5% of cachers care about being FTF.

 

Caching isn't about being the FTF, if you think so you've missed the entire point. If just ONE person who believes being FTF is the point of this comes to their senses, and understands it's not, then I will have done my job.

 

El Diablo

Edited June 5, 2008 by El Diablo

[Clan Riffster]

FTF used to mean something.

With the possible exception of those folks hell bent on boorish behavior, (such as deriding others for playing a game somewhat differently than they do), FTF still has meaning. Whether the FTF is gained by luck, by skill or as a gift, it still holds some meaning. You insist that competitive analogies must apply, with your snide comments regarding a FTF as a "win", yet the cache owner has already stated that this was not the case with this cache. There was no "win", because there was no competition. There was only an accolade, given to a fellow cacher, for their accomplishments. If you simply can't live with yourself without urinating in the Cheerios bowls of other players whom you are unable to understand, the least you could do is accept with grace the fact that we don't all play your angst filled game.

[+ArtieD]

This is all so silly...if you want to honor a cacher, hold a party or an event or something like that...at the very least don't call people boorish because they choose not to play your game of giving a person a FTF. Again, a published cache is fair game and no one is the lesser for finding it before the person you'd like.

[Clan Riffster]

Openly and deliberately refusing a polite request, when it costs you nothing to honor that request, just because you can, is boorish. If you are uncomfortable with the label, don't practice boorish behavior.

[+ArtieD]

Openly and deliberately refusing a polite request, when it costs you nothing to honor that request, just because you can, is boorish. If you are uncomfortable with the label, don't practice boorish behavior.

 

Honestly, I care less what people think. I cache alone 99.999% of the time and where I am located caching groups are far off. If people get bent out of shape over that they have bigger issues to deal with and are not simply having fun.

 

What you call boorish, I call getting your skivvies in a bunch over nothing.

[+hukilaulau]

I've thought about this for a while and I've come to this opinion:

 

If I'm a local guy and I see a request that the cache be reserved for another cacher's FTF then that's fine with me, I can wait a resonable amount of time. FTF isn't life and death.

 

If another local cacher grabs FTF on the cache before the specified cacher, then that's fine by me too.

 

If for some reason I should grab FTF on a cache that was (unknown to me) reserved for somebody else then I'm going to claim it. If the local cachers get ticked off, then that's unfortunate. But I'll be fine.

 

As long as everybody is able to realize that sometimes the best made plans fall apart and accidents happen, then there shouldn't be a problem. Live and let live; it's a hobby.

What took ya so long to post?!? This pretty much describes the attitude around here. NOBODY IS GOING TO GET THEIR LOG DELETED! Why do people keep talking about that?!?

[Clan Riffster]

Honestly, I care less what people think.

Main Entry: boor·ish

Pronunciation: \ˈbu̇r-ish\

Function: adjective

 

: resembling or befitting a boor (as in crude insensitivity)

— boor·ish·ly adverb

— boor·ish·ness noun

boorish implies rudeness of manner due to insensitiveness to others' feelings and unwillingness to be agreeable <a drunk's boorish behavior>.

 

Yup! I'd say that about sums it up.

[+ArtieD]

Yup! I'd say that about sums it up.

 

Wow...you found a dictionary definition! What other talents do you have?

 

Yes, I know what the definition is, but thank you for reminding me nevertheless.

 

Now, how 'bout you address the topic at hand; namely, why people get bent out of shape when people don't play their game of giving someone an empty and hollow FTF.

 

Personally, I'd say those that actually care about this need to grow up and realize that not everything goes their way.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Arthur & Trillian

[+sbell111]

I think that the people participating in this thread need to take a breath and stop making their arguments so personal.

 

I also think that the basic reason that this thread is so angsty is that people have different perceptions of what a FTF means.

 

Some people certainly believe that the FTF hunt is a competition, and that's fine. However, since it is not an official competition, I see no problem with a cache owner establishing his cache to honor an individual (rather than to be part of the FTF race) and politely request that the honoree be the first person to experience the cache.

Edited June 5, 2008 by sbell111

[+infiniteMPG]

I think that the people participating in this thread need to take a breath and stop making their arguments so personal.

No doubt!

 

Some people certainly believe that the FTF hunt is a competition, and that's fine. However, since it is not an official competition, I see no problem with a cache owner establishing his cache to honor an individual (rather than to be part of the FTF race) and politely request that the honoree be the first person to experience the cache.

I don't see a problem with the request but it would of been more "politically correct" for the owner to alert the honoree privately that the cache was coming and to watch for the posting to snag the FTF since it was a cache placed to honor them. The request kind of cheapens the FTF value.

 

Some local cachers placed a cache a while back named "Too Easy for IMPG" (sarcastic title) and was placed with the explicit intro text stating : "This is a challenging four part cache that is ment to be a challenge for IMPG ". I ended up being the forth to find and no biggie to me, I like FTF's but smilies are fine, too. There was a flaw in their puzzle I pointed out and the stage that they saw was going to be the biggest challenge I snagged in 6 minutes so I enjoyed conquering the challenge The honoring with being singled out was the reward for me.

 

I guess the point is people choose to honor others in their own way and I think we all have the right to choose how to do that. We don't need to regulate (or judge) how people do that as the fact that they are doing it at all shows a level of respect towards others that all too many people don't display these days.

[+flask]

Openly and deliberately refusing a polite request, when it costs you nothing to honor that request, just because you can, is boorish. If you are uncomfortable with the label, don't practice boorish behavior.

 

i've said over and over that i wouldn't dream of stealing their little sippy cup. it goes on my ignore list, and fast.

 

does somebody give me a FTF for being the first to ignore the cache?

 

hey, i've been sick for a while. it'd be really swell if i was declared first to find on my local caches for a week.

 

naw, that's for "other people".

 

here's yer binky. yaaaay! good job! you win! you've been the very best "you" you can be! and look! here's a trophy that says so! good job! that's so terrific you made it all the way there without an "accident"!

 

oooh, let's play another game: let's race... to where you are! yay! you win!

 

ok, now guess what number you're thinking of. wow, you're so smart.

[Dinoprophet]

Again..."race", "win", "race", "win". You continue to put it in the completely wrong frame. At this point, I can only assume you're willingly refusing to accept it and/or trolling.

 

On any given cache, someone is going to be the first to find it. Some people decide to take that fact and turn it into a race. Letting someone be the first to find a cache is removing the race aspect. No race. No competition.

 

It's ironic that you try to defuse FTF races yet you can't wrap your mind around the idea of there not being a race involved. I myself have stopped putting FTF prizes in my caches. This may surprise you, but someone is still going to be first to those caches, and they're going to enjoy the fact that they're the first person to enjoy the cache, even though there's no incentive to race to it.

[+infiniteMPG]

i've said over and over that i wouldn't dream of stealing their little sippy cup. it goes on my ignore list, and fast.

I think if that popped up on a cache listing around here, considering all the FTF marks in the area, it would be seen as a challenge to snag it before the honoree so the person they were honoring would probably get a FTF (Fifteenth To Find)

[Clan Riffster]

What other talents do you have?

I can belch in 4 languages.

 

Yes, I know what the definition is, but thank you for reminding me nevertheless.

You are most welcome, Sir. It seemed you could use a reminder. Always happy to be of assistance.

 

Now, how 'bout you address the topic at hand; namely, why people get bent out of shape when people don't play their game of giving someone an empty and hollow FTF.

Sure, I'll take a stab at what you perceive to be the topic at hand:

In reading back through these posts, I see only a couple people getting angsty. (AKA: bent out of shape) Two of them are you and Flask. Sorry, but I can't for the life of me imagine why either of you are getting "bent out of shape". You'll need to look elsewhere for those answers. Perhaps a PM to Flask? Y'all could compare notes and come to a determination.

On the other aspect you mention: Just because it is empty and hollow to you, doesn't mean the accolade is empty or hollow to the person receiving it. Some folks are so filled with emptiness that they feel a compelling need to suck the joy out of other people's lives. These folks deserve only pity. Sorry.

 

i wouldn't dream of stealing their little sippy cup.

that's for "other people".

here's yer binky.

you made it all the way there without an "accident"!

ok, now guess what number you're thinking of. wow, you're so smart.

More witty rejoinders. More angsty charm. It's so refreshing to see you haven't comprehended anything in this entire thread. Not surprising, mind you, just refreshing.

 

At this point, I can only assume you're willingly refusing to accept it and/or trolling.

Yup!

[+Team GeoBlast]

Around here, we go with the person to help them celebrate the occasion.

 

This seems to make the most sense. Why not just have a FTF gathering and go with him to celebrate and congratulation the achievement? It builds community, it acknowledges the work it took to get to the milestone, and it's not exclusionary.

[+flask]

Again..."race", "win", "race", "win". You continue to put it in the completely wrong frame. At this point, I can only assume you're willingly refusing to accept it and/or trolling.

 

On any given cache, someone is going to be the first to find it. Some people decide to take that fact and turn it into a race. Letting someone be the first to find a cache is removing the race aspect. No race. No competition.

 

It's ironic that you try to defuse FTF races yet you can't wrap your mind around the idea of there not being a race involved. I myself have stopped putting FTF prizes in my caches. This may surprise you, but someone is still going to be first to those caches, and they're going to enjoy the fact that they're the first person to enjoy the cache, even though there's no incentive to race to it.

 

what i'm doing is attempting to cast a shadow on what i believe to be a questionable practice at best.

 

for you, maybe FTF isn't that big a deal (and bless you for discontinuing FTF prizes), but i find it very hard to believe that the people who do this in general don't think of the FTF as important.

 

once upon a time (and it was a long time ago) a local cacher put out a cache which he timed to honor my 250th cache. i was the first one in my state to reach that number, so at the time it was kind of a big deal. he placed it and left the challenge open for me.

 

i left the house at 0630 and didn't manage to get there second, even. i still have the lovely gift he left for me in the box ($2.50 in change, laminated to a card), and the honor was really in the challenge. someone else got there first, but the race was in my name.

 

there is always incentive to race to a cache; getting there first IS special, and for no other reason than the pure race. i can't necessarily explain why. i don't like the practice of FTF prizes, nor of posting the "winner" on the cache page, nor publicly bookmarking your FTF list. if i'm first to a cache (and i used to be first to EVERY cache around here) i don't mention it in my log.

 

to hand this as a freebie to a person who didn't earn it cheapens it. i can only hope to put a little doubt in the minds of people who engage in this practice, and i'm enjoying high rhetoric and hyperbole in the process.

 

in my cycling life, i not only don't cross a finish line if i didn't finish the race, but when riding a course i won't come up the chute or cross the line, not even in practice. every wednesday i ride a race where there is absolutely nothing at stake; there are no prizes and no winners are announced. later on, at home (if you care that much) you can compare your time to other riders, but nobody's keeping records.

 

and yet i and a couple hundred other racers show up every week (twelve years now for me, without fail) and we race as if everything depended on it.

 

i just think the debate here should not be about "would you disregard the cache owner's request", but more properly should be about the worthlessness of the practice.

 

i can't say i'd respect the hider's wishes, because i have no respect for the practice or the practitioner. i would, however, allow the patsy to claim the bogus honor and let their record be forever tarnished in my mind.

 

i and my friends will be happy to make them the butt of all our jokes.

[+sbell111]

The race to be first may be important to you, but not necessarily to everyone else. It's not an official part of the game. Clearly, it isn't that important to most of the people in the area of the specified cache.

[+sbell111]

The FTF race doesn't have to be appropriate for every cache. After all, sometimes you compete in bike races and sometimes you just take a bike ride.

[+ArtieD]

Wow...couldn't have said it better myself, flask...

[+ArtieD]

The FTF race doesn't have to be appropriate for every cache. After all, sometimes you compete in bike races and sometimes you just take a bike ride.

 

Sure...I can see how it would apply to event and CITO caches and the like...but why not your average cache?

 

I'd say the race is on all the time for those.

[+sbell111]

The FTF race doesn't have to be appropriate for every cache. After all, sometimes you compete in bike races and sometimes you just take a bike ride.

 

Sure...I can see how it would apply to event and CITO caches and the like...but why not your average cache?

 

I'd say the race is on all the time for those.

Because there isn't really a race.

 

If you choose to go out and chase something, bully for you, but it doesn't mean that you competed in a race.

 

Certainly, if a cache owner requests that everyone allow the honoree to find the cache first, then there is no race. Why make it one?

[+sbell111]

Yesterday, I had to go to the grocery store. I was the first one from my house to get there. Woo Hoo! I win.

[+ArtieD]

Because there isn't really a race.

 

If you choose to go out and chase something, bully for you, but it doesn't mean that you competed in a race.

 

Certainly, if a cache owner requests that everyone allow the honoree to find the cache first, then there is no race. Why make it one?

 

It is a race for those who enjoy FTF's...and a cache owner wishing someone in particular be FTF doesn't mean the race is not on. It merely means that the "honoree" had better beat everyone else if they want FTF.

[+stipman]

I guess after reading all these posts.. I need to clarify a bit. For me it's not about the whole FTF thing, it's more about putting a cache out there and requesting people not find it until the someone else aka the honoree) does... it just so happens that the honoree will be first, but what's to prevent the next step of someone updating a cache listing to reflect that an honoree should be to 10th person to find the cache because they alway like being the 10th person? FTF is irrelevant in the context of this discussion to me.

[+jbhodj & Drake]

I have read the entire thread and I can sympathize with both sides of the debate. What is amazing is how some of the debate has turned personal which I think defeats the purpose but I must digress.

 

Personally, if I was going to be honored in some way, I would like to be honored for something legitimate and not a gimme. The OP's point was that it was a 3000 find? What difference does it make if its the FTF 3000 or not? If he still logs his find he still gets the honor of finding number 3000 right?

 

As a new geocacher, one thing I quickly learned is that there are FTF junkies who's entire caching life centers around that FTF title. They sit at home waiting for the alarms to go off, they leave work, they scarf down their dinner with company and race off, they leave the wife and kids behind (believe me I have read the logs) all in the simple (IMHO meaningless) FTF log! Their is no grand prize for the most FTF's.

 

I can see how easy it is to get caught up in racing out, speeding, in a severe weather, rising water and tornado sirens going off all in an attempt to log "FTF". That just sounds SOOO fun to me.

 

But to many, "Second place is the first loser

[+ArtieD]

I guess after reading all these posts.. I need to clarify a bit. For me it's not about the whole FTF thing, it's more about putting a cache out there and requesting people not find it until the someone else aka the honoree) does... it just so happens that the honoree will be first, but what's to prevent the next step of someone updating a cache listing to reflect that an honoree should be to 10th person to find the cache because they alway like being the 10th person? FTF is irrelevant in the context of this discussion to me.

 

All in all, putting restrictions (or "requests" as some people like to call it) on when and who finds a cache is silly.

[Dinoprophet]

I guess after reading all these posts.. I need to clarify a bit. For me it's not about the whole FTF thing, it's more about putting a cache out there and requesting people not find it until the someone else aka the honoree) does... it just so happens that the honoree will be first, but what's to prevent the next step of someone updating a cache listing to reflect that an honoree should be to 10th person to find the cache because they alway like being the 10th person? FTF is irrelevant in the context of this discussion to me.

In that case, I still think the best option is to make it unavailable to others -- disable the cache after nine finds until the honoree finds it. That's weird, but it ought to work.

 

Hm, there's an idea. If you really want to reserve "the honor of being the first to complete the cache" (avoiding FTF now) on a published cache, disable it on publication. Will that prevent people from rushing out to it?