Are we allowing the degradation of geocaching?

[+JohnnyVegas]

Maybe someone should check some of the caches ScoutingWV has logged finds on, I think ScoutingWV is

rather upset about the prctice of deleting bugous logs.

 

So you know how I feel about this, do you? Go ahead. If my account means that much to you, go right ahead and check it. Big deal. You're too busy feeling offended that you missed my point. Go ahead. Make yourself feel better.

 

Getting a bigger keyboard is going to help spelling as much as deleting logs will stop this practice. I'm not against it (as you may believe) I just don't see it stopping anything. You talk in absolutes and this game doesn't exist that way. People are going to do what they want, how they want. As a cache owner, you control whether or not you will delete any log. As a cache finder, you control whether or not you will log something you really found or not.

 

Want to question how I play or how I log and what I believe in about this game? Let's go caching together sometime and I'll show you.

Maybe if you owned a few caches you might understand why those of us that hide caches care about bogus logs.

[+sbell111]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

Why are you calling me a cheater? I never said that I cheated. In fact, I didn't.

Yeah I know, some of us saw that coming.

 

So..how was it?

It was OK.

 

The cache was one of those where you have to go into a business and ask for the cache.

 

The cache owner listed the hours of operation and I showed up during those hours. Unfortunately, they changed their operating hours for the winter. They are now closed on Sundays.

 

I spotted the cache behind the counter and photographed it through the window. I logged it as a find and sent the owner an email explaining everything and offering to change it to a note, if he preferred.

 

Ah, so it was bogus. My bad.

 

edit: and yes I am fully aware I am giving you posting fodder.

 

Still bogus.

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point. Edited February 4, 2008 by sbell111

[+TrailGators]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

Why are you calling me a cheater? I never said that I cheated. In fact, I didn't.

Yeah I know, some of us saw that coming.

 

So..how was it?

It was OK.

 

The cache was one of those where you have to go into a business and ask for the cache.

 

The cache owner listed the hours of operation and I showed up during those hours. Unfortunately, they changed their operating hours for the winter. They are now closed on Sundays.

 

I spotted the cache behind the counter and photographed it through the window. I logged it as a find and sent the owner an email explaining everything and offering to change it to a note, if he preferred.

 

Ah, so it was bogus. My bad.

 

edit: and yes I am fully aware I am giving you posting fodder.

 

Still bogus.

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

The only thing that is never considered bogus is actually finding the cache and signing the log. You can never go wrong if you always do that...

[+BlueDeuce]

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

 

I'm not going to guess which one that would be. I might choose that you don't feel bad.

 

That's fine. I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging. I disagree with it.

[+TrailGators]

I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging.

Neither do most people... Edited February 4, 2008 by TrailGators

[+sbell111]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

Why are you calling me a cheater? I never said that I cheated. In fact, I didn't.

Yeah I know, some of us saw that coming.

 

So..how was it?

It was OK.

 

The cache was one of those where you have to go into a business and ask for the cache.

 

The cache owner listed the hours of operation and I showed up during those hours. Unfortunately, they changed their operating hours for the winter. They are now closed on Sundays.

 

I spotted the cache behind the counter and photographed it through the window. I logged it as a find and sent the owner an email explaining everything and offering to change it to a note, if he preferred.

Ah, so it was bogus. My bad.

 

edit: and yes I am fully aware I am giving you posting fodder.

 

Still bogus.

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

The only thing that is never considered bogus is actually finding the cache and signing the log. You can never go wrong if you always do that...

This is where your post ran off the rails. You make the assumption that your opinion of right or wrong is more valid than someone else's. In my opinion, I didn't go wrong. The only other person's opinion that matters is the owner of that specific cache. If her agrees with me, the find will stand. If he disagrees, I'll change it to a note.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

[+sbell111]

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

 

I'm not going to guess which one that would be. I might choose that you don't feel bad.

 

That's fine. I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging. I disagree with it.

My point was that while most people agree that 'finds' logged by people who never even attempted the cache are bogus, everything else lives in the land of grey which the forum populous, and geocachers in general, don't come to a concensus as to what's right or wrong.

Edited February 4, 2008 by sbell111

[+KBI]

Geocaching is nothing but finding hidden containers using GPS. That’s all it is. It's something to do for fun. It only becomes more than that if you make it more than that.

You are way off base with this! Well, unless you actually do only find those hidden containers and never interact with other cachers in any way.

 

However, for alot of us, i'd even say the majority of us, geocaching is much more than just the finding of a hidden container with a GPSr. It's a hobby that incorporates many social aspects with it such as interaction through cache logs, going out with good friends, helping someone you don't even know with cache repairs, throwing and attending events, and even, quibbling back and forth here in the forums.

 

Because of this social aspect, the conduct and morals of others do enter into the equation and will sometimes be called into question.

As I said: Geocaching is nothing but finding hidden containers using GPS. It only becomes more than that if you make it more than that, as you have apparently chosen to do.

 

I do all the extra-curricular things you listed and more, yet I have never called into question the conduct and morals of other cachers who simply use a different logging standard.

 

Back in '03 when my brother and I first started to really get into caching we noticed there was a local owner of several caches who seemed to be a bit confused. He logged smileys ... on his own caches! Sometimes multiple smileys!! Anytime he wished to post a note or document a maintenance trip he seemed to always select "Found It" from the pull-down menu, for reasons known only to himself, instead of the more appropriate entry. He would even post a smiley when confirming that his cache container had gone missing!

 

I will admit that upon realizing his consistent error our first reaction was to Do Something About It, but upon further thought – didn’t take much thought, really – we quickly grasped the obvious fact: that this pitiful soul’s bogus logging abused us not one little bit. Didn’t affect anyone else either. He wasn’t hurting a thing. From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages, and otherwise went along our merry way finding and DNF-ing our own geocaching adventures.

 

I was fully aware of the possibility that he simply wanted to run up his own find count, but that didn’t impair my own enjoyment of finding hidden containers with my Garmin, therefore it never even occurred to me to challenge his morals. I learned that his find count was less meaningful than most folks’ find counts, but of course what he was doing was no more wicked, depraved or immoral than if, whether by mistake or intent, he had been wearing his Thursday underwear on a Monday.

 

Even years later, now that I’ve long since started going out with good caching friends, helping people I didn't even know with cache repairs, attending events, and even quibbling back and forth here in the forums, I can still see that neither that guy’s logging habits nor his schedule-shifted skivvies has harmed me in any detectable way.

 

Tell me again why I was supposed to be disgusted and appalled? Tell me again why I am way off base?

[+Renegade Knight]

....

The cache was one of those where you have to go into a business and ask for the cache.

 

The cache owner listed the hours of operation and I showed up during those hours. Unfortunately, they changed their operating hours for the winter. They are now closed on Sundays.

 

I spotted the cache behind the counter and photographed it through the window. I logged it as a find and sent the owner an email explaining everything and offering to change it to a note, if he preferred.

 

You are such a rebel.

[+TrailGators]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

Good point but if we were playing this game for money a lot of people would've been thrown out of the game or worse...

[Dinoprophet]

No, they are not the same people. I seriously doubt anyone here who is arguing that the rules of logging are flexible would dream of doing those things.

I'm sure it's not a one-to-one correlation, but there is some overlap in my experience.

If the ones who log finds from their basement are the same ones who tear up landscapes when they do go out, maybe we should encourage them to continue playing from their basement.

[+KBI]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

If Geocaching were in any way analogous to poker that might actually make sense.

[+BlueDeuce]

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

 

I'm not going to guess which one that would be. I might choose that you don't feel bad.

 

That's fine. I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging. I disagree with it.

My point was that while most people agree that 'finds' loggede by people who nerver even attempted the cache are bogus, everything else lives in the land of grey which the forum populous, and geocachers in general, don't come to a concensus as to what's right or wrong.

 

Have to go do cattle chores. Back in a bit.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

If Geocaching were in any way analogous to poker that might actually make sense.

I'll even admit that poker is not the best analogy, that's why I didn't make it.

[+KBI]

Have to go do cattle chores. Back in a bit.

Forum posting, cattle chores ... what difference does it make? Same job, different shovel.

 

[+TrailGators]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

If Geocaching were in any way analogous to poker that might actually make sense.

They are both popular games with simple rules...

 

If I ever poker with Sbell, I'll bring a photo of a Royal Flush. Read it and weep!

Edited February 4, 2008 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

If Geocaching were in any way analogous to poker that might actually make sense.

I'll even admit that poker is not the best analogy, that's why I didn't make it.

Let's see ... in Geocaching, there is no competition, no game score being kept, no running wager among the participants ... and therefore no "degrading" taking place whenever any participant decides to get a bit silly with the procedures ... other than all those things, I'd say it's a perfect analogy!

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Back in '03 when my brother and I first started to really get into caching we noticed there was a local owner of several caches who seemed to be a bit confused. He logged smileys ... on his own caches! Sometimes multiple smileys!! Anytime he wished to post a note or document a maintenance trip he seemed to always select "Found It" from the pull-down menu, for reasons known only to himself, instead of the more appropriate entry. He would even post a smiley when confirming that his cache container had gone missing!

 

I will admit that upon realizing his consistent error our first reaction was to Do Something About It, but upon further thought – didn’t take much thought, really – we quickly grasped the obvious fact: that this pitiful soul’s bogus logging abused us not one little bit. Didn’t affect anyone else either. He wasn’t hurting a thing. From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages, and otherwise went along our merry way finding and DNF-ing our own geocaching adventures.

Did you ever consider he didn't realize what he was doing. Isn't it possible that he had no intention of creating bogus logs, and may have appreciated clarification from someone?

[+Bad_CRC]

I degraded the game today.

 

that made me laugh.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

I don't think you degraded the game. I think you degraded yourself. Some people cheat at poker but does that make it a lesser game?

But if the other poker players and dealers choose to allow cheaters to continue cheating because it's "just the way they play poker", then I'd say poker has been degraded.

If Geocaching were in any way analogous to poker that might actually make sense.

I'll even admit that poker is not the best analogy, that's why I didn't make it.

Let's see ... in Geocaching, there is no competition, no game score being kept, no running wager among the participants ... and therefore no "degrading" taking place whenever any participant decides to get a bit silly with the procedures ... other than all those things, I'd say it's a perfect analogy!

Wow, all I need to do is agree with you and you'll change your mind?

[+Bad_CRC]

Most people cheat at solitaire but does that make it a lesser game?

 

I fixed your analogy.

[+KBI]

Back in '03 when my brother and I first started to really get into caching we noticed there was a local owner of several caches who seemed to be a bit confused. He logged smileys ... on his own caches! Sometimes multiple smileys!! Anytime he wished to post a note or document a maintenance trip he seemed to always select "Found It" from the pull-down menu, for reasons known only to himself, instead of the more appropriate entry. He would even post a smiley when confirming that his cache container had gone missing!

 

I will admit that upon realizing his consistent error our first reaction was to Do Something About It, but upon further thought – didn’t take much thought, really – we quickly grasped the obvious fact: that this pitiful soul’s bogus logging abused us not one little bit. Didn’t affect anyone else either. He wasn’t hurting a thing. From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages, and otherwise went along our merry way finding and DNF-ing our own geocaching adventures.

Did you ever consider he didn't realize what he was doing. Isn't it possible that he had no intention of creating bogus logs, and may have appreciated clarification from someone?

If his bogus logs were intentional then it didn't matter one little bit, for the reasons I have already explained, and his bogus logs therefore constituted no "degradation" of Geocaching.

 

Are you now implying that there was a heinous degradation of our hobby if his bogus logs were UNintentional?

[+TrailGators]

Most people cheat at solitaire but does that make it a lesser game?

I fixed your analogy.

Do they post all their solitaire wins on a solitaire website? IMHO people that log falsely are misrepresenting their accomplishments on a public website. If they logged all those bogus logs on their own private PC, it wouldn't matter. Anyhow, I can only stop those people from being dishonest if they try doing it on one of my caches.

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Back in '03 when my brother and I first started to really get into caching we noticed there was a local owner of several caches who seemed to be a bit confused. He logged smileys ... on his own caches! Sometimes multiple smileys!! Anytime he wished to post a note or document a maintenance trip he seemed to always select "Found It" from the pull-down menu, for reasons known only to himself, instead of the more appropriate entry. He would even post a smiley when confirming that his cache container had gone missing!

 

I will admit that upon realizing his consistent error our first reaction was to Do Something About It, but upon further thought – didn’t take much thought, really – we quickly grasped the obvious fact: that this pitiful soul’s bogus logging abused us not one little bit. Didn’t affect anyone else either. He wasn’t hurting a thing. From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages, and otherwise went along our merry way finding and DNF-ing our own geocaching adventures.

Did you ever consider he didn't realize what he was doing. Isn't it possible that he had no intention of creating bogus logs, and may have appreciated clarification from someone?

If his bogus logs were intentional then it didn't matter one little bit, for the reasons I have already explained, and his bogus logs therefore constituted no "degradation" of Geocaching.

 

Are you now implying that there was a heinous degradation of our hobby if his bogus logs were UNintentional?

 

Mine was an honest question - no implications outside of what I wrote. Once again, isn't it possible that he had no intention of creating bogus logs, and may have appreciated clarification from someone?

 

I had a similar situation where I politely clarified logging procedures to a newbie, and they were very grateful.

 

I also wonder if some cachers don't fully understand that their false logs are not looked upon favorably, and would possibly not do it if they knew this. (i.e. some armchair virtual cachers in Germany stopped when they realized it was a translation misinterpretation)

[+KBI]

Mine was an honest question - no implications outside of what I wrote.

It was my assumption that your question was an honest one. I also assumed your question was somehow on-topic, hence my conclusion that you were implying this man’s UNintentionally bogus logs were somehow "degrading" to the game.

 

If that isn’t what you meant by your question, then what does your question have to do with the "degradation" of Geocaching?

 

I also wonder if some cachers don't fully understand that their false logs are not looked upon favorably ....

Are you saying that you look upon the logs of our local confused cacher with disfavor? What exactly do you mean by "unfavorably?"

[+ecanderson]

 

I don't think that golf websites are as integral to golf as geocaching.com (or other sites) is to geocaching.

I don't know if you play golf, but the description of the web site from the previous poster isn't really all that different from how it's actually done. After playing a round of golf, if the player intends to play with competitive golf with a "real" handicap (not purely recreational golf), the results of the game are entered on the course computer by the player at the end of the round. It is by that system that a player's handicap is computed for competitive purposes.

 

The resulting scores and handicap then available for verification. It's not enough to enter a competition and say "I shoot a 22 handicap". This system is the way we know you're not really an 8 handicapper and trying to sandbag us!

 

 

For those who prefer their geocaching as a competitive sport, the same honor system applies to both logging caches and posting your round at the end of a golf game. The difference it that the pros rarely get away with anything (too many fans, officials and cameras) ... not even Vijay (1985 Asian Tour). Much of what many geocachers do is done in as much stealth as conditions permit.

 

I could care less whether someone posts a bogus golf score or does a bogus online log of a cache. When caught, it certainly provides information about a person's character, but unless there's money on the line that has been taken out of someone else's pocket (e.g., professional golf), nuts to 'em.

Edited February 4, 2008 by ecanderson

[+Cedar Grove Seekers]

Mine was an honest question - no implications outside of what I wrote.

It was my assumption that your question was an honest one. I also assumed your question was somehow on-topic, hence my conclusion that you were implying this man’s UNintentionally bogus logs were somehow "degrading" to the game.

 

If that isn’t what you meant by your question, then what does your question have to do with the "degradation" of Geocaching?

My question was on topic, but you chose to skirt around it, so I explained what I was getting at anyway (wondering if some cachers don't fully understand that their false logs are not looked upon favorably).

 

And if you are all of a sudden the "keep on topic police" then you have a lot more posts to respond to.

 

I also wonder if some cachers don't fully understand that their false logs are not looked upon favorably ....

Are you saying that you look upon the logs of our local confused cacher with disfavor? What exactly do you mean by "unfavorably?"

By "unfavorably" I was refering to when you wrote "From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages"

[+BlueDeuce]

Have to go do cattle chores. Back in a bit.

Forum posting, cattle chores ... what difference does it make? Same job, different shovel.

 

 

Amen to that.

[+Bad_CRC]

Do they post all their solitaire wins on a solitaire website? IMHO people that log falsely are misrepresenting their accomplishments on a public website. If they logged all those bogus logs on their own private PC, it wouldn't matter. Anyhow, I can only stop those people from being dishonest if they try doing it on one of my caches.

 

but... posting their numbers on a website is a different pursuit than playing the game itself. If some people choose to worry about who has the best score, and whether they cheated to get it... that is a completely separate issue from actually playing the game of solitaire. It can't effect enjoyment of playing the game, ...it can only matter to those people who separately choose to worry about others' numbers on that website and whether those numbers are real or not... right?

 

anyway, you can't stop people from being dishonest. period. Removing a log certainly won't change someone's ethics... it'll just waste some of your time and in the process it will create unnecessary angst for both of you.

 

[+BlueDeuce]

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

 

I'm not going to guess which one that would be. I might choose that you don't feel bad.

 

That's fine. I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging. I disagree with it.

My point was that while most people agree that 'finds' logged by people who never even attempted the cache are bogus, everything else lives in the land of grey which the forum populous, and geocachers in general, don't come to a concensus as to what's right or wrong.

 

So? You're saying it happens. We know that.

 

I choose to say it's wrong and I think that makes a difference. And that's the topic.

Edited February 4, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+TrailGators]

anyway, you can't stop people from being dishonest. period. Removing a log certainly won't change someone's ethics... it'll just waste some of your time and in the process it will create unnecessary angst for both of you.

If you never stand up for what you believe in then you are a nothing...

[+Bad_CRC]

If you never stand up for what you believe in then you are a nothing...

 

This is true, but I'd hope a person could find a more noble pursuit on which to concentrate their efforts than trying to control how others play a *game*

 

[+ecanderson]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

A conundrum:

 

Of interest -- I was very nearly tempted to do exactly the same thing yesterday. I was able to see a cache that simply could NOT be accessed without drawing HUGE amounts of attention. The cache was in a public park area that maintains dawn to dusk hours, so it wasn't like I could come sneaking back in the dead of night to tend to the log. Actual access to this cache for log signing purposes would have required climbing up on a bit of public signage/kiosk at the entrance to the park where many people were passing by and moving in and out of the park. The cache was 8+ feet off the ground. As I get started in actually placing caches, I think I might be a bit more circumspect about location.

 

Anyway, due to coordinates and a bit of focused looking, the thing WAS there to be found, just not touched.

 

Got a brain fart this morning, and realized that if I were to drop by on a cold, cloudy day half an hour before the Super Bowl started, there might be less people about. A person shouldn't have to find one of perhaps 5 half-hour slots in a year to visit a cache without making its presence obvious. Did manage to get the thing signed without being observed.

 

Having actually seen the thing, would I have been doing geocaching a favor by grabbing it during any of the other 360 days a year (and most of the hours within the other 5) when it would have been pretty obvious and might well have been muggled, or would this pastime have been better served by just logging the thing as found -- since it really was found?

[+Walt Jabsco]

It's imperative that all cache counts be totally honest and accurate.

 

How else are you going to determine your smugness and feelings of superiority by your count being higher than others if it isn't? (Your own dubious count find claims doesn't need to enter into the equation)

 

<-- That means I'm joking. Sort of.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Walt Jabsco

[+Bad_CRC]

It's imperative that all cache counts be totally honest and accurate.

 

How else are you going to determine your smugness and feelings of superiority by your count being higher than others if it isn't? (Your own dubious count find claims doesn't need to enter into the equation)

 

this is like the 3rd post to make me laugh out loud tonite. the forum is on a roll.

[+TrailGators]

If you never stand up for what you believe in then you are a nothing...

 

This is true, but I'd hope a person could find a more noble pursuit on which to concentrate their efforts than trying to control how others play a *game*

 

 

Doing the right thing never takes a timeout. So that means if I happen to be playing a game that means I won't cheat nor will I play with cheaters. They can play with themselves...

[+Bad_CRC]

I won't cheat nor will I play with cheaters. They can play with themselves...

 

Everybody who geocaches is playing with themselves.

 

The only question is whether some people are watching other people play with themselves, and

 

 

 

nevermind. I'm confused now.

 

[+Walt Jabsco]

if I happen to be playing a game that means I won't cheat nor will I play with cheaters.

 

Then geocaching must be creating quite a dilemma for you.

 

If they took control of posting finds away from the cacher and only let post the cache owner post the finds, that would solve two problems. It would eliminate fake finds, and require the cache owner to maintain their cache by going out and getting the log. And as a side benefit, cache owners would be more likely to place to place better caches, instead of just dropping a film canister off every 500 feet.

(No further discussion of my suggestion needed, I can already see where this will lead)

[+KBI]

I also wonder if some cachers don't fully understand that their false logs are not looked upon favorably ....

Are you saying that you look upon the logs of our local confused cacher with disfavor? What exactly do you mean by "unfavorably?"

By "unfavorably" I was refering to when you wrote "From then on we simply rolled our eyes whenever we witnessed the bizarrely repeating smileys on his cache pages"

That's as much moral outrage as I was able to work up over the issue of his bogus logs. I scratched my head and moved on. That is nowhere near enough ethical discomfort to justify calling the man's behavior "degrading" to the game.

 

I was hoping you would tell me why YOU would have looked unfavorably on his bogus logs and considered them degrading ... unless you wouldn't have, in which case I believe I have made my point.

Edited February 4, 2008 by KBI

[+tozainamboku]

It's imperative that all cache counts be totally honest and accurate.

 

How else are you going to determine your smugness and feelings of superiority by your count being higher than others if it isn't? (Your own dubious count find claims doesn't need to enter into the equation)

 

<-- That means I'm joking. Sort of.

Of course this is the reason that I cross out the names I find in the physical cache log that didn't log online.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what is being degraded.

 

I personally have actually found (or at least was present when found) every cache I claim a Found It log on. OK some will argue the few beta finds I claim a find on weren't legitimate. I usually only claim these when with a group of caches and the cache owner offers to let us log the cache or when a cache owner gives me the coordinates and I really do get to find the cache only its before it was published.

 

I never logged a locationless cache because I didn't think this was geocaching. For a long time I didn't log virtuals because I didn't think that was geocaching. Eventually I changed my mind and decided that a virtual cache was just like a traditional cache in that I used my GPS to find something. Only instead of signing the log I had to post a picture or answer a question. I never logged an armchair virtual, even though I was able to find the answer for a few of them, because it didn't fit my opinion of what geocaching is. I never log a find on a replacement cache that was left when I was caching except perhaps once or twice when I was caching with the owner and they were replacing their own cache.

 

I suspect that some of my finds won't meet the high standard of some geocachers. But I think I may be safe when it comes to the concept of bogus finds listed here.

 

However, I know geocachers who log every virtual cache the see. Especially where there is no verification required. I know geocachers who log armchair virtuals. My hope is that they are logging these with the permission of the cache owner and aren't simply looking for virtuals that have a certificate of achievement and think that this makes it OK to log. I know geocachers who will leave a replacement cache if they couldn't find the original (generally where the original has been previously not found and usually with permission of the cache owner). In one famous case, I was the only one in the group to log a DNF when everyone else posted a find on the replacement cache someone had left.

 

I don't feel that the geocachers I know have degraded themselves. Their definition of the game is different than mine. It may even be a minority opinion. These alternatives reasons for logging a find do exist and for the most part the people who do this believe that what they are doing is right. I know they didn't degrade me because I was still able to log a DNF when they were finding the replacement cache. I know they didn't degrade the cache owner who allowed their find and in fact was happy to have his cache replaced. I don't see how they could possibly degrade geocaching. In fact they could be enhancing geocaching by allowing more variations and ways to play without getting in my way to play the game as I see fit.

 

Nobody I know just sits at home an logs caches in place of going out and finding them. I hear reports from time to time of this happening - so I guess that on some rare occasions it does occur. Several people have stated that there are practical reasons for not doing this - people wasting time looking for a cache that is not there or a cache owner postponing a needed maintenance trip. I'll grant that these kinds of bogus logs probably do indicate some kind of character flaw in the person making the log. Perhaps they do believe there is some advantage in inflating their find count. In any case, cachers can't do this too often without being discovered. I suspect at that point, owners who may not have deleted the logs originally might be motivated to do so now. These people will soon be not welcomed at events (or at the very least will know what other cachers are saying about them behind their backs). These people have certainly degraded themselves,but I still don't understand how they can degrade geocaching.

[+KBI]

if I happen to be playing a game that means I won't cheat nor will I play with cheaters.

Then geocaching must be creating quite a dilemma for you.

 

If they took control of posting finds away from the cacher and only let post the cache owner post the finds, that would solve two problems. It would eliminate fake finds, and require the cache owner to maintain their cache by going out and getting the log. And as a side benefit, cache owners would be more likely to place to place better caches, instead of just dropping a film canister off every 500 feet.

(No further discussion of my suggestion needed, I can already see where this will lead)

Yes, I'm sure you CAN see it coming ...

 

That’s a clever idea, but I think the prediction in your last statement might be a tad optimistic.

 

If, under your proposal, finds do not get logged online until the owner physically visits the cache container to read the paper log, then which type of hide do you reeeeally think will be encouraged: The nearby micro in the neighborhood, or the ammo can that is only reachable via hiking a long and strenuous trail?

[+TrailGators]

if I happen to be playing a game that means I won't cheat nor will I play with cheaters.

 

Then geocaching must be creating quite a dilemma for you. If they took control of posting finds away from the cacher and only let post the cache owner post the finds, that would solve two problems. It would eliminate fake finds, and require the cache owner to maintain their cache by going out and getting the log. And as a side benefit, cache owners would be more likely to place to place better caches, instead of just dropping a film canister off every 500 feet.

(No further discussion of my suggestion needed, I can already see where this will lead)

It's not a dilemma at all because people around here don't cheat. We really have a great group of cachers out here. If you have a functional honor system then owners don't have to run out and constantly audit their caches. It seems ridiculous to have to do that.

[+TrailGators]

If, under your proposal, finds do not get logged online until the owner physically visits the cache container to read the paper log, then which type of hide do you reeeeally think will be encouraged: The nearby micro in the neighborhood, or the ammo can that is only reachable via hiking a long and strenuous trail?

I was going to say the same thing. It would be a PITA for me because all my caches are hikes. Edited February 4, 2008 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

It's not a dilemma at all because people around here don't cheat.

I think this statement, all by itself, demonstrates why bogus logging ("team logging," not the trouble-causing "remote logging" Briansnat described) is NOT a problem, and does NOT "degrade" anything or anybody.

 

Question: How do you know people in your area don’t cheat?

 

Do you know ALL the geocachers in your area? Do you accompany each of them on EACH cache find?

 

If not, do you visit EVERY cache in your area after EVERY find by another cacher in order to reconcile the online logs with the paper logs?

 

Unless you do either of these things -- and do them with complete, 100% thoroughness, mind you -- you have no proof that there is no cheating. If, therefore, there is bogus logging going on, and you are unaware of the bogus logging, then the bogus logging therefore has absolutely no way of harming you.

 

If a friend of mine called me via his cell phone while standing over a cache in your town and said "Hey KBI, want me to add your name to this log so you can claim a smiley?" ... then, unless you know the handwriting of every cacher, even your daily paper log reconciliation visits wouldn’t reveal the subterfuge.

 

This type of "cheating" could be happening right under your nose. It could be happening and you would be completely unaware, therefore there is no way for it to make you feel morally uncomfortable – to "degrade the game" – because it doesn't matter.

[+ScoutingWV]

Maybe if you owned a few caches you might understand why those of us that hide caches care about bogus logs.

 

So, you mean I can't understand because I don't OWN a cache? That's pretty silly. You really don't have to own a cache to understand the train wreck of a topic that this is.

 

And I guess the five I owned and gave up for adoption so they could be maintained on a more regular basis gives me no experience in cache ownership, do they?

 

oh ... that's right. You wouldn't know that. Mostly because you don't have any clue about how I play the game in my area or my personal history with caching. You also don't know that I help maintain other caches, do you?

 

Come on now - sling another arrow so it can go off target, too.

[+sbell111]

I wouldn't have posted it to this thread if I didn't think that some cachers would believe it to be bogus. It goes to my previous point.

I'm not going to guess which one that would be. I might choose that you don't feel bad.

 

That's fine. I don't feel bad when people say 'why should I care about what doesn't affect me'. I just don't buy that as a reason to why I shouldn't disagree with false logging. I disagree with it.

My point was that while most people agree that 'finds' logged by people who never even attempted the cache are bogus, everything else lives in the land of grey which the forum populous, and geocachers in general, don't come to a concensus as to what's right or wrong.

So? You're saying it happens. We know that.

 

I choose to say it's wrong and I think that makes a difference. And that's the topic.

While I agree, in theory, I have to wonder what it is that you are saying is wrong.

 

As I tried to explain in my previous post and some others, many of the actions that people in this thread are calling bogus would be called a find by other players. I was hoping to make that position clearer with my example of yesterday's 'find'.

[+sbell111]

anyway, you can't stop people from being dishonest. period. Removing a log certainly won't change someone's ethics... it'll just waste some of your time and in the process it will create unnecessary angst for both of you.

If you never stand up for what you believe in then you are a nothing...

There was a time in my life when I would fight every battle full on and live with the ramifications. Eventually, I discovered that sometimes those ramifications were not worth the fight. It's better to pick one's battles.

[+sbell111]

I degraded the game today.

 

I logged a find on a cache of which I did not sign the log.

 

I don't feel at all bad.

A conundrum:

 

Of interest -- I was very nearly tempted to do exactly the same thing yesterday. I was able to see a cache that simply could NOT be accessed without drawing HUGE amounts of attention. The cache was in a public park area that maintains dawn to dusk hours, so it wasn't like I could come sneaking back in the dead of night to tend to the log. Actual access to this cache for log signing purposes would have required climbing up on a bit of public signage/kiosk at the entrance to the park where many people were passing by and moving in and out of the park. The cache was 8+ feet off the ground. As I get started in actually placing caches, I think I might be a bit more circumspect about location.

 

Anyway, due to coordinates and a bit of focused looking, the thing WAS there to be found, just not touched.

 

Got a brain fart this morning, and realized that if I were to drop by on a cold, cloudy day half an hour before the Super Bowl started, there might be less people about. A person shouldn't have to find one of perhaps 5 half-hour slots in a year to visit a cache without making its presence obvious. Did manage to get the thing signed without being observed.

 

Having actually seen the thing, would I have been doing geocaching a favor by grabbing it during any of the other 360 days a year (and most of the hours within the other 5) when it would have been pretty obvious and might well have been muggled, or would this pastime have been better served by just logging the thing as found -- since it really was found?

Personally, I would have played that one exactly as you did. I would have left it be and come back at another time.

 

Your example is slightly different than mine for two reasons. First, part of the difficulty built into yours is the problem of retrieving and replacing the cache without being caught. Second, per the cache page, mine could be retrieved during certain hours. Upon arriving at the location, I discovered that the cache page was incorrect. I located the cache and documented that fact. The only remaining element for me wuold be to enter and sign the log, which I couldn't do.

 

I realize that these differences are thin but, if nothing else, it identifies the point at which I drew the line for myself yesterday.

[+KBI]

It was OK.

 

The cache was one of those where you have to go into a business and ask for the cache.

 

The cache owner listed the hours of operation and I showed up during those hours. Unfortunately, they changed their operating hours for the winter. They are now closed on Sundays.

 

I spotted the cache behind the counter and photographed it through the window. I logged it as a find and sent the owner an email explaining everything and offering to change it to a note, if he preferred.

 

Oh, fine for you.

 

You SAY it was okay ... and I’m sure the cache owner will be okay with it as well ... and yet, for some reason I now feel so ... so dirty, so ... wicked ... ashamed ... like I need a shower, but ... how will I EVER wash away this stain, this raw, sickening stench of your crime against Geocaching? Why did you inflict this appalling sin upon the rest of us, Sbell? It’s so ... I dunno, so ... degrading!

 

Eeeeaawwwwww – get-it-off-me-get-it-off-me-get-it-off-me-get-it-off-me-get-it-off-me ...